Why AI Might Not Change Education Much at All (With Justin Reich)
An Optimist’s Take on AI and the Future of Learning (with Sébastien Martin)
Our Chatbot Friends and Lovers (with Pat Pataranutaporn)
Chatbots Don’t Fool Us, We Fool Ourselves (With Joshua Jay)
Does AI Have to Be Bad News for the Planet? (with Meghan Busse)
To Thrive Alongside AI, Find the Bottlenecks (with Ben Jones)
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI will revolutionize education! No, it will destroy it! Which is it? If history is any guide, the impact will be limited in either direction. In this episode, MIT education researcher \u003ca href=\"https://tsl.mit.edu/team/justin-reich/\">Justin Reich\u003c/a> walks through a century of hype cycles — from filmstrips and radio to MOOCs and smartphones — to show what actually changed in classrooms, and what didn’t. Drawing on\u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/the-homework-machine-ep-1-buckle-up-here-it-comes/\"> interviews with 120 teachers and students\u003c/a> across the U.S., he explains why new tools tend to extend old habits, why gains from new technology are usually modest, and why they tend to benefit affluent schools most. (Part 2/2 in our back-to-school series.)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Listening and Reading:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/the-homework-machine-ep-1-buckle-up-here-it-comes/\">The Homework Machine\u003c/a> (Audio)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/dp/0674089049?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback\">Failure to Disrupt: Why Technology Alone Can’t Transform Education\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life, Automated, the show where we explore how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I’ll admit it, I’m the kind of person who hears something about the incredible capabilities of AI and then immediately tries to project all the ways those capabilities might transform the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s actually one of the goals of this podcast, to try to determine how many of these mental leaps are grounded in evidence. And sometimes I talk to someone and I’m like, “Yeah, this is a really big deal.” Today’s conversation, not that. I’ll be talking to Justin Reich, a researcher and director of the Teaching Systems Lab at MIT, about AI’s likely impact on K-12 education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is not my first conversation about AI and education. I recently spoke with one of my colleagues here at Kellogg, Sébastien Martin, who has entirely reimagined many aspects of how he teaches his MBA students in ways I find pretty inspiring. But he’s admittedly an edge case, like if you accidentally ended up having Beethoven as your piano instructor and he gave you a warped sense of what piano lessons typically look like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Justin Reich, on the other hand, does have a sense of what lessons typically look like, not those designed by tech-savvy professors at top-ranked business schools, but in the rest of the world where budgets are limited, professional development is scarce, and time and time again, technology has entered the classroom only to fail to live up to its promise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Justin recently interviewed 120 K-12 teachers and students across America about AI for his podcast, “The Homework Machine.” His verdict? AI might modestly help some students learn some things. AI certainly is causing a lot of headaches. But somewhat surprisingly, given we’re talking about a technology that can pretty convincingly mimic human intelligence, he does not view it as transformational in the least.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a project from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. And here is my very grounded conversation with Justin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You have been described as a healthy skeptic when it comes to bringing technology into classrooms. Do you agree with that characterization?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Yeah, healthy skeptic. I was recently at DeepMind in London where one of the Google engineers said that I was the token skeptic. I don’t know. I’m not ideologically skeptical. Like, I’ve used technology, computers in my teaching for more than 20 years now, and I still do it. What I aspire to be is evidence-based.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To me, maybe that’s skeptical, but it’s not skeptical as like, “I don’t know if I trust this technology stuff.” It’s more skeptical in the sense of like, what does a century of evidence tell us, and based on that century, what would we expect to happen next? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, it seems like you’re kind of in a position to interview yourself, so I’m just gonna ask you the question you asked yourself. What does a century of experience with technology tell us about this current moment? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>The first things that happen when teachers get access to new technologies is they use them to extend existing practices. So they do whatever they were doing before but with the new technology. So we used to write our notes on chalkboards, and then we wrote our notes on whiteboards, and then we put them on acetate sheets, and then they got projected onto SMART Boards, into LCD projectors. It’s the same notes. We just reproduce them in all these different formats. If you give teachers enough time and support and coaching, they will invent new kinds of practices. Unfortunately, the second pattern that we see is that, where there are benefits to new technologies, they tend to disproportionately benefit the affluent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They benefit people with the financial, social, and technical capital to take advantage of new innovations. So for instance, in 2012, we invented these giant, these massive open online courses, and the main thing that we found is that they were pretty good for helping people earn their second master’s degree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So if you were already educated, already affluent person, there are these great new opportunities for you, and it turned out that they really weren’t very good at helping onboard new kinds of students into the higher education system. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The third pattern that we see over and over again is that technologies are only as powerful as the communities that guide their use. So we’re constantly hoping that we can invent the software or these machines. You just sort of download things onto a bunch of people’s computers, and all of a sudden, learning gets better. And that essentially never happens. What can happen, where you can see improvements in learning, is when teachers have time to experiment and to try new things and to collaborate with their colleagues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Principals come up with new disciplinary standards. Students learn new routines. Families learn new ways of helping people. When whole communities have a chance to make improvements, you know, across the curriculum and lesson planning with technologies, that’s when we can sometimes see some benefits. And, we should typically expect that benefits are modest, because the benefits of anything that we do in educational settings are typically modest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you want to make education better, what you’re usually doing is, like, putting your shoulder to the wheel for a long time and being like, “Oh, it’s one percent better this year. That’s great. Let’s see if we can make it one percent better again next year.” Which is, of course, not at all what techno-utopians want to have happen or describing what happened, where there’s this giant disjunction with the past, and everything is better afterwards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s kind of fun to think that way. There’s not a lot of historical evidence for it, and, I mean, I think the reason why I critique that approach the most is that it tends to be where you see people wasting a lot of time and money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s do a couple of examples here. So can you give us a couple of examples of times when techno-utopians came in and said, “This is it. This is going to change everything,” and then what actually happened? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, you got to start with the OG, Thomas Edison. Wow, so my man, a century ago, Thomas Edison, went in front of Congress, I think it was in 1913, and said, “In 10 years, textbooks will be gone, that they’ll be completely replaced by film strips, and this is gonna be a good thing as computers have been introduced” – I mean, radio went through this phase. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a Larry Cuban has a great book called Teachers and Machines with a photograph in it, of a big, like, an armour-sized radio set. And it says, “With radio, the underprivileged school becomes a privileged one.” And so the idea that, like, we’re gonna have the best experts in the world broadcast radio lectures, radio lessons into homes all across the country, and it’s gonna be totally transformative of how students learn. Massive open online courses are probably the one that most recently went through higher education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, I don’t know, Sebastian Thrun, who was a Google employee, a founder of Udacity, said that, “In 10 years, there will be fifty universities left, and Udacity might be one of them.” And as it turns out, today, sitting here in 2026, there are more than fifty universities that are left. People were really enthusiastic about the web, online courses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There was a book called Disrupting Class, which Clay Christensen wrote. He’s the developer of the theory of disruptive innovation. In 2009, he said that in 10 years, by 2019, half of all secondary school courses would be mediated online, that they would cost a third as much to deliver, and they would have better outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And my hunch is, if any of your listeners wander to their local public high school, they will not find that half of the classes are delivered online, that they will not find that the costs of running educational institutions have gone down by sixty-six percent, and they will not find, that the educational outcomes of the online learning experiences are substantially better than the ones that are being mediated by teachers. So there’s a pile of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, this does not mean that these previous technologies haven’t changed anything about the classroom experience, or that they didn’t feel, in small ways, kind of magical. Here’s a story Justin likes to tell, one from before he became a researcher, back when he was a teacher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> So when I went to go get my first teaching job, the department head was interviewing me the summer before and he said, “Can you teach world history?”And I said, “No, but I promise that if you hire me by September, I’ll figure out how to teach world history.” And he said, “Well, maybe.” And he said, “All right, one more thing, you’re gonna be teaching in this kind of trial classroom where there’s a cart of laptops in the corner. There are these blue and orange clamshell MacBooks”, this sort of iconic form factor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he said, you know, “And we’ve used ninth grade world history as sort of a testing bed to,” this was in 2003, “to see how these new computers could affect teaching and learning.” I said, “You can put a cart of bananas in the back corner of the classroom and I’ll teach with them. I just really need this job.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he went ahead and hired me, and it was really fun teaching in that classroom. It was a moment where the world’s government and archives and museums were rapidly digitizing primary sources. And so as a history teacher, with those computers, I could really do some things that were quite different from my own high school education where, you know, maybe I had a book of primary source documents with 20 documents in it or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now I can, you know, you just sort of imagine like, oh, what was, you know, I wanna teach my students about the Harlem Renaissance. Oh, the Smithsonian has 20,000 song sheets from the Harlem Renaissance. They can each study their own document, which maybe nobody has looked at, in the last hundred years or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Now, Justin says this was great. His students got a taste of what real historians do, find their own sources and documents and interpret them. But it also came with some hidden costs, in many ways, much greater than those of the computers themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I was working in a private school, and I also recognized that the kinds of resources that were required to keep those computers running, to keep them charged, to keep our networks running, to find the productive things that students were doing and to highlight them, to find the malicious things that students were doing and stop them, was an enormous amount of resources.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the sort of incredible possibility of what students and me as a teacher could do with new computers was always balanced against the challenges and realities of turning those new affordances into everyday routines of learning that really helped students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So fun, genuinely interesting, but not necessarily a game changer, and very resource intensive. I could see where this was going, and I wanted to know, is ChatGPT really just computers in classrooms all over again? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah. Well, what is different, if anything, about generative AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I think we will by and large see those same kinds of patterns, I mean, people get really enthusiastic about the new technology that are in front of them to the point of dismissing the magic of previous technologies. There’s sort of an argument that emerges, which is kind of like… I’m calling it the web was met. Like you hear people say, like, “Well, you know, this AI thing is just totally different. I mean, we-\u003cs> \u003c/s>like, what could the web have possibly done?” I was like, “My guy, we took a handheld supercomputer, and we put it in the pocket of every child 13 years older in the networked world. We connected them to basically the world’s corpus of information, to every person they know, to every expert you can possibly imagine, and the effects on education range from not that much to maybe actually not that good.” You know, to the point where schools across the country are banning those mobile devices from people’s classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Justin says that like previous technologies, there will be some things that AI is really good at. They just won’t be, in his words, “transformative.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> They seem to be pretty good at translation. Like, maybe that will become less expensive, and that will be sort of helpful, but we actually… It’s gonna find that it’s not transformative to schools because, like, just translating materials is not, like, the only thing you need to unlock educating, you know, students that come from all over the world and speak all kinds of different languages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m kind of enthusiastic about writing feedback, maybe. You know, one of the things we know is that, like, you need a lot of feedback to improve at things, and the machines seem to be able to generate reasonable writing feedback, but then you get other kinds of reports from classrooms that are like, “Yeah, my students really just want feedback from me, the human being teacher in the room,” because it turns out that most of what motivates us to learn is our social relationships with one another, and it doesn’t seem like social relationships with chatbots is a very promising direction for humanity to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, there is at least one kind of disruption that absolutely is happening in schools right now. So this very deep intel comes from my husband. He is a Chicago public school teacher. He teaches at high school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Excellent!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And so I asked him, I was like, “All right, I’m gonna talk to this ed tech expert.” Like, “Give me the lowdown. Like, what is happening in your high school?” And so he had a number of things to say, and so I’m gonna share these with you. I think we’ll do it, like, one at a time, and you can tell me if you are in any way surprised by this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, to prevent students from using these chatbots to just do entire homework assignments, there’s been a big shift toward in-class assignments done on paper, which does seem to help with that cheating problem, but it introduces another challenge, which is that you’re then not spending that class time actually doing instruction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Happening all over the place, happening in universities, happening in lots of different contexts. If, like definitely, one potential thing to be sad about is that, like, if you believed it could be possible that five years ago you could send students home to write stuff and be reasonably likely that they would write stuff, and then you could use class for the time of being together and engaging with one another.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now it sounds like your husband, like many other teachers, believes, “If I want to read something that my students have actually written, I pretty much have to put them in a room and watch them write it themselves.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, I think it’s quite possible that there are millions of fewer minutes of homework being assigned than in previous years. And if you believe that homework gives students practice that’s valuable for their learning, then that could be a massive drawdown in the amount of learning time that students are doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So he and his colleagues have not entirely given up on the idea of homework, but what they’ve done is try to use technology to fight technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he and his colleagues pay out of pocket, mind you, for a Google Doc extension that shows them a detailed history of the revisions made to a document. So the idea is you can actually see a video of an essay being constructed in real time, kind of sped up. And the downside is that it is still possible for students to cheat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>They just, they ask ChatGPT to write the essay, and then they’re literally sitting there, like, typing the essay from ChatGPT into Google Docs at, like, roughly a pace that they think it would look like you know, a 17-year-old comes up with thoughts in a unique manner and things like that. It’s kind of an interesting learning experience for the students, but obviously they’re not learning the thing that they’re supposed to be doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, like, the best possible use of your husband’s expertise is not surveilling students’ writing. I think we could find that as we ramp up the level of surveillance in schools, that that’s really not good for a democratic society, that you know, that a certain amount of privacy, a certain amount of freedom from surveillance is actually necessary for the Republic to continue as a Republic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the context that he’s in, what he’s doing is sensible, but if you aggregate that context across a lot of classrooms, you’re like, “Oh, that could be really bad, actually.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And I’ll share one more with you. So the last thing he mentioned is building, he calls it “layers of resistance.” So for an essay, this might mean breaking down an assignment into a bunch of different pieces. Then students do each piece separately, and then once they’ve already done that work, they then combine it into a longer piece. So, you are making it easier to do the eventual assignment yourself since you’ve had to do earlier parts yourself before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But you’re also making it harder to cheat because that would be, you know, just a lot more difficult to cheat at each of those steps and then combine them into cheating. And again, he says it’s fairly effective, and that’s kinda like his favorite strategy right now. And I asked him, I said, “Well, is this having the effect of requiring your students to kind of use training wheels to think longer than they would otherwise?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> So training wheels to think is oftentimes better than we imagine it is. There’s a group of educational researchers that are interested in this set of ideas called cognitive load theory, and an idea that we often have is that people become experts by behaving like experts. And they sort of argue, “No, no, no when people develop expertise, it looks quite different than being an expert.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I mean, you do, I think, Jess, have a good intuition there, which is like, “man, at some point, the kids, like, before they leave high school, probably just need to be able to write the essay.” Like, that it seems like that would be a pretty good thing, that we would want young people to be able to independently generate an argument in prose.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At least for the last, like, 30 years, we’ve thought that’s a pretty good idea to do, you know, with computers in particular. And boy, is generative AI making it hard for teachers to assign that task that we think is pretty good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>But after going into these specifics, like, wouldn’t you agree that this is pretty transformative in terms of what students are actually doing during the school day?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I mean, definitely not transformative in the sense of, “Boy, this is great.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Justin really wouldn’t take the bait here. He was adamant. No, we don’t have any great evidence that how teachers and students actually spend their days, think lectures, group work, has really changed that much over the past couple of years, or for that matter, the past few decades, even if take-home essays are basically off the table now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I kept at him. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It does seem like one really big difference right now is that there’s a lot of discussions about how AI is or isn’t going to change the kind of future and work that we’re preparing students for. I’m curious if you’re seeing, you know, is that impacting students’ motivation to learn, which would obviously have a very big impact in the classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess it also could start to change the question of what school should be for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Yes. New technologies are a great catalyst to provoke conversations about what schools are for. In the last few decades, we’ve been particularly interested in the question, like, how do you prepare individuals for work in the labor market?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although if you go through the history of schooling, you know, in the United States, we have public schools as a bulwark of our democracy. When Thomas Jefferson wrote about public schooling in the notes of the State of Virginia, and proposed the system of public schooling, it would be so that our nascent democracy would continue to exist and have citizens who are prepared to take on their roles as citizens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, citizenship is gonna change with generative AI, too, and so we should be thinking about some of those kinds of changes. My hunch is if you went to all of the K-12 schools in the United States, you would not see huge changes in student motivation because like, students are not that great at thinking about their long-term futures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, students primarily, like, they do not care that much about the subjects that we teach, for the most part. They care a ton about their teacher and their peers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, whether the students feel it or not, I guess my question would be to you, do you think that schools should be rethinking what education is for in this moment?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> I don’t know – I think we should start by saying we don’t know. Not only do we not know, but historically, when we’ve made some of these guesses in the past, we’ve been wrong. So you could look at things like, you know, the sort of computer science industry telling people that it’s enormously important to learn to code in order to get good jobs, and now there’s a possibility that computer programming won’t actually be a very viable field in the near future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, and these things go back histor- You know, in the 19th century, there were a group of educators who passionately believed that you really had to teach sentence diagramming – that if you didn’t teach sentence diagramming, like, Western civilization would fall. And we’ve mostly stopped teaching sentence diagramming, and maybe Western civilization will fall apart, but it’s probably not gonna be for the lack of sentence diagramming.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Cursive. The great cursive debate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>The great cursive debate continues. Here, here, here are two stories you could tell about AI. One story you could tell about AI is that there is a lot to learn to figure out how to use AI, and that students should begin the process of learning that as soon as possible, that there should be a set of scaffold experiences, that we should change our curriculum, so that as people get older and older, there are more and more tasks that they do in partnership with AI, ’cause partnering with AI is hard to learn how to do, and if they do it with the supervision of teachers, they’ll be better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A second story that you could tell is that getting generative AI to spit stuff out is actually super easy, that there really is not that much to learn, and that what really differentiates people who are proficient and less proficient with using generative AI is whether or not they can evaluate output. Since the output is highly uneven, what you really need are people who can say, “Oh, this is a good idea, this is a good practice, and this one is not.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It could be that there’s actually very little general expertise that you can develop to distinguish good output from bad output. What you probably primarily need is domain knowledge. Like, if you ask ChatGPT a question about plumbing, there’s nothing about AI which is gonna tell you whether or not it gave you a good plumbing answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What you need to know about is plumbing. If that was the case, if domain expertise was sort of the key differentiator in people skills in using AI, then that would be pretty good news for schools and universities, ’cause the main thing they’ve done for however many hundreds of years is try to help people develop domain expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But I don’t- as a civilization, science does not know the answer to those two stories. Science cannot tell you today which of those two stories is correct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s interesting. So I’m guessing you’re not a big fan of some of these moves more recently by school districts, university systems, states, even potentially the federal government, to implement various AI competency or AI literacy requirements.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I will point out some of these seem more, you know, pro-technology, like giving the students the skills they need to succeed with these technologies. Others actually take a bit more of a defensive crouch, like let’s teach students the critical thinking skills so they can discriminate between the good and the bad. But there is nonetheless a lot of overlap, which is that these requirements purport to prepare students to live in a world alongside AI. And I’m curious what you make of those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing that we’ve tried over the last twenty years in the United States is a strategy they might call, like, the ‘tech literacy’ strategy, where every time a new technology comes along, you define a set of skills that correlate with that technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You write some policy documents that say schools should be teaching those things, and then you, like, bake it for a while and watch and see what happens. And, like, if you were to pick a sort of education reform strategy that we could be almost certain does not work, it would be that one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It works really well for pundits and policymakers. Like, it’s a great way for policymakers to be like, “Look, we did a thing. We passed a bill which says you have to learn some stuff.” But what you actually have to do to make a difference in schools is you have to translate those policy guidance into curriculum documents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are 3.5 million teachers in the United States. Like your husband, one in every one hundred living Americans has to raise their hand and say, “I will be a teacher this year,” in order for our system to function. To improve the capacity of 3.5 million people is mind-bogglingly complex.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You could probably tell me the number of minutes or hours that your husband has gotten for, you know, AI-related professional development, and I bet the number is not super high. What I’m sure of is the number is not commensurate to some kind of transformational change. And so, I mean, I’m not opposed to that strategy on any kind of ideological or philosophical… Like, sounds kind of great to me. Just historically, it has not worked at all. Go ask young people – “have people, have young people describe their social media practices to you?”, and you’ll be like, “Oh, that sounds pretty bad and not good for your health, actually.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there has been ten or fifteen years of, like, social media literacy in schools. Like, ask one of your students to, like, save a file to a folder, and watch their head explode. And you’ll be like, “Oh, maybe, like, we’re not that good at teaching digital literacy in schools.” So one is just, like, an efficacy approach – But even if you believe that that, like, general approach would work, you have to sort of ask the question, like, what kinds of things are we gonna stuff into that AI fluency and AI literacy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, what should that be? And I think we really, to this day, don’t know. So I mentioned before that I went to DeepMind the other day in London, and I cornered every engineer I could find, and I said, “Do you know how to train a junior engineer to code with a copilot?” I asked in big groups, in small groups, one-on-one. There was not an engineer or program manager there who told me yes. Every single one of them told me, “We do not know how to do that.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> DeepMind, Google’s elite AI laboratory. Justin went to a conference there about AI and education. And when he says that software engineers told him that they don’t know how to train a junior engineer to code with a copilot, what he means is that they may have protocols and practices, but they’re not yet confident that they work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is a major concern in the software industry. Many big companies are adopting coding assistants like Claude Code, GitHub Copilot, Cursor, and Codex. Senior engineers can thrive in this kind of environment. They can prompt the AI with exactly what they’re looking for, and then they can manually check the outputs and write their own code when something goes wrong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A much more junior engineer can also use these code assistants to generate code that seems like it works, but if it has a bug or a vulnerability, they may not notice or be able to fix it. And worse, they may never get a chance to develop their skills further. So we could end up with a generation of software engineers who don’t understand how the software works, can’t fix it if it goes wrong, and have shaky ideas of what is technologically possible. Not ideal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Companies know this could be a problem, so they’re experimenting with protocols for junior engineers, but this is all so new that nobody knows yet if these protocols will work. And they were frank about this with Justin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>If Google, which has billions and billions of dollars at stake to answer this question, does not know how to teach a junior engineer how to code with a copilot, like, what is a seventh grade middle school’s computer science teacher supposed to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, what would AI literacy in that class look like until Google can figure it out? That is an excellent point. So you mentioned earlier this idea that, in general, previous educational technologies have – if they’ve had a positive impact, it’s been toward the students who are already either high-performing or come from very high-resourced schools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I wanna ask you a little bit about special education, and in particular, kind of the extreme edges of special education. So this is kind of personal for me. My 11-year-old now, she has a rare genetic disorder, and I would say she does fall in that sort of extreme end of the continuum. Like, she literally will not look at a piece of paper if it hasn’t been, like, personalized with things that, you know, her teachers and aides and therapists know will draw her attention.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so there’s certainly this kind of low-hanging fruit that I could see being very easy helping, you know, busy professionals in the classroom. But I do see the possibility of something a little bit more transformative in a positive way – for kids whose brains just work so differently that the professionals involved don’t always have a ton of intuition about what will work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we talk a lot about AI having these jagged skills that are hard to understand from the outside, so being amazing at one skill and, like, hilariously bad at another. But there is a population of students for whom this is also true. I think a very concrete example here is severe language disabilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So right now, the vast majority of educational instruction is done via language. If you have a kid whose language skills are significantly more impaired than their other skills, how do you teach them? How do you assess them? Non-verbal assessments do exist, but guess how the instructions are given? They’re given in language.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it just seems like this place where a tool that can radically personalize, that’s completely agnostic to how a student chooses to answer a question, that has zero preconceived ideas about what will or won’t be an effective learning tool, could be transformative. And I know this is very hand-wavy, it’s very in the distance, but is there something here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Oh well, for sure. So first, I’m definitely rooting for these people – I mean, I’m always rooting for the people who are making education much, much better. My, like, very boring, sometimes sad job is to, like, hop into these conversations and be like, “That would totally be great. Just, we should remember that people have been working on this for decades, and progress tends to be more measured.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s why they call you the skeptic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>There’s this whole field called universal design for learning, which, you know, has observed for a long time, sometimes better to think of curriculum as disabled than people as disabled. The curriculum is just not presenting information in ways and in mechanisms that people with different kinds of ability can access. And so we should do a better job of reinventing our curriculum and, you know, in fact, as we start bringing generative AI into the application of these kinds of things in special education, we don’t have to start from scratch. We can start from decades of effort of people using computers to do these same kinds of things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, translation is one thing that we mentioned, putting learning resources into different kinds of modalities. So if there are people who don’t read text well, then we can just have the machine speak the text. You know, a strategy that we’ve tried a lot is to build just-in-time learning supports for people into resources, saying like, “Okay, if this learning resource in its current form isn’t working for you, like, push this button and it will talk. Push this button and the reading level will change. Push this button and this other kind of feature of it can be modified to suit your needs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we found historically is that the kids that we most want to push those buttons are not the ones who push the button. The like high-performing kids push the ‘Help Me’ button and the kids who we most wish would push the, like, ‘Give Me Some Extra Resources’ or ‘Change This to Support Me’ button would.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, when we talk to teachers across the country, adapting resources to folks with different kinds of abilities is one of the things that they’re most enthusiastic. The you know, generative AI technologies might be able to help them do, and I’m rooting for them, and I hope that there are companies that figure out ways of doing this more sustainably and at scale. And I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw some potential benefits from that. And those benefits are most likely to emerge not in the places where people download the, you know, the software that personalizes things for students with different learning capacities and things like that. It’s gonna be where whole communities are able to, like, rethink the way that they do special education in the context of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, and it’s probably gonna be that students who live in more affluent places are gonna have the kinds of systemic resources that allow for all that training and adoption to occur.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This idea of resources, it’s an important one, and not just for special education because every dollar, every hour of an educator’s time, it comes at the expense of money or time spent elsewhere, including on things that we do know work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>And the worst case scenario, which I think we’ve seen a lot of places, is that we make substantial additional investments, both in technology platforms and then in a bunch of extra humans to manage those technology platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the cost of schooling goes up, but because at best, the gains of those technology platforms is pretty moderate, you’re like adding a whole bunch of additional expense. Like, you know, you’re basically like in the Chicago Public Schools, like you bought all these Google Docs, and you bought all of these computers so that all the students can use them, and you bought all these IT professionals because the computers break all the time, and your husband like, is like, “Well, actually, the best thing to do is to have them write essays on pencils and paper.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, that’s an awful lot of money that we’re spending on all of this infrastructure to sit in a closet while your students are writing in composition notebooks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Will AI transform K-12 education? Justin really doesn’t think so. And frankly, I’m not sure whether to be disappointed or relieved by that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, there is something reassuring about a world where students continue to learn the same kinds of things that I learned when I was in school. It’s certainly preferable to one where the whole educational system grinds to a panicked halt because they’ve decided students don’t need to learn anything anymore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But on the other hand, it seems my dreams of some automated tool that can magically help my daughter learn in a way no human has yet managed to is probably not right around the corner either. And I still think that experiments will be important, including the kind of ambitious, dare I say transformative experiments that folks like my colleague Sébastien Martin are pursuing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have to know what’s possible, and then we’ll need to roll up our sleeves. Test, learn, make sure that whatever gains we see in one classroom with one teacher can eventually benefit a much larger group of students. Because, and I’ll end with this, even our resident skeptic Justin agrees. At the end of the day, alongside all the headaches, new technologies do bring new capabilities. And little by little, these capabilities can tangibly improve the status quo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I mean, the things that do work, it’s probably going to be more like 10 or 20 years of development rather than sort of stumbling across something which works super well in a year or two. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So it could be transformative for the better, but it’s just going to take a ton of work and dedication and probably resources to get there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> My colleague Ken Kaedinger says that step change is what 25 years of incremental change looks like from a distance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Special thanks to today’s guest, Justin Reich. Jesse Dukes is our producer. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Marketing support from Ananya Mallapragada. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>AI will revolutionize education! No, it will destroy it! Which is it? If history is any guide, the impact will be limited in either direction. In this episode, MIT education researcher \u003ca href=\"https://tsl.mit.edu/team/justin-reich/\">Justin Reich\u003c/a> walks through a century of hype cycles — from filmstrips and radio to MOOCs and smartphones — to show what actually changed in classrooms, and what didn’t. Drawing on\u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/the-homework-machine-ep-1-buckle-up-here-it-comes/\"> interviews with 120 teachers and students\u003c/a> across the U.S., he explains why new tools tend to extend old habits, why gains from new technology are usually modest, and why they tend to benefit affluent schools most. (Part 2/2 in our back-to-school series.)\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/the-homework-machine-ep-1-buckle-up-here-it-comes/\">The Homework Machine\u003c/a> (Audio)\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/dp/0674089049?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback\">Failure to Disrupt: Why Technology Alone Can’t Transform Education\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life, Automated, the show where we explore how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I’ll admit it, I’m the kind of person who hears something about the incredible capabilities of AI and then immediately tries to project all the ways those capabilities might transform the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s actually one of the goals of this podcast, to try to determine how many of these mental leaps are grounded in evidence. And sometimes I talk to someone and I’m like, “Yeah, this is a really big deal.” Today’s conversation, not that. I’ll be talking to Justin Reich, a researcher and director of the Teaching Systems Lab at MIT, about AI’s likely impact on K-12 education.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s actually one of the goals of this podcast, to try to determine how many of these mental leaps are grounded in evidence. And sometimes I talk to someone and I’m like, “Yeah, this is a really big deal.” Today’s conversation, not that. I’ll be talking to Justin Reich, a researcher and director of the Teaching Systems Lab at MIT, about AI’s likely impact on K-12 education.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is not my first conversation about AI and education. I recently spoke with one of my colleagues here at Kellogg, Sébastien Martin, who has entirely reimagined many aspects of how he teaches his MBA students in ways I find pretty inspiring. But he’s admittedly an edge case, like if you accidentally ended up having Beethoven as your piano instructor and he gave you a warped sense of what piano lessons typically look like.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is not my first conversation about AI and education. I recently spoke with one of my colleagues here at Kellogg, Sébastien Martin, who has entirely reimagined many aspects of how he teaches his MBA students in ways I find pretty inspiring. But he’s admittedly an edge case, like if you accidentally ended up having Beethoven as your piano instructor and he gave you a warped sense of what piano lessons typically look like.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Justin Reich, on the other hand, does have a sense of what lessons typically look like, not those designed by tech-savvy professors at top-ranked business schools, but in the rest of the world where budgets are limited, professional development is scarce, and time and time again, technology has entered the classroom only to fail to live up to its promise.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Justin recently interviewed 120 K-12 teachers and students across America about AI for his podcast, “The Homework Machine.” His verdict? AI might modestly help some students learn some things. AI certainly is causing a lot of headaches. But somewhat surprisingly, given we’re talking about a technology that can pretty convincingly mimic human intelligence, he does not view it as transformational in the least.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a project from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. And here is my very grounded conversation with Justin. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a project from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. And here is my very grounded conversation with Justin. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You have been described as a healthy skeptic when it comes to bringing technology into classrooms. Do you agree with that characterization?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You have been described as a healthy skeptic when it comes to bringing technology into classrooms. Do you agree with that characterization?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Yeah, healthy skeptic. I was recently at DeepMind in London where one of the Google engineers said that I was the token skeptic. I don’t know. I’m not ideologically skeptical. Like, I’ve used technology, computers in my teaching for more than 20 years now, and I still do it. What I aspire to be is evidence-based.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Yeah, healthy skeptic. I was recently at DeepMind in London where one of the Google engineers said that I was the token skeptic. I don’t know. I’m not ideologically skeptical. Like, I’ve used technology, computers in my teaching for more than 20 years now, and I still do it. What I aspire to be is evidence-based.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To me, maybe that’s skeptical, but it’s not skeptical as like, “I don’t know if I trust this technology stuff.” It’s more skeptical in the sense of like, what does a century of evidence tell us, and based on that century, what would we expect to happen next? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To me, maybe that’s skeptical, but it’s not skeptical as like, “I don’t know if I trust this technology stuff.” It’s more skeptical in the sense of like, what does a century of evidence tell us, and based on that century, what would we expect to happen next? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, it seems like you’re kind of in a position to interview yourself, so I’m just gonna ask you the question you asked yourself. What does a century of experience with technology tell us about this current moment? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, it seems like you’re kind of in a position to interview yourself, so I’m just gonna ask you the question you asked yourself. What does a century of experience with technology tell us about this current moment? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>The first things that happen when teachers get access to new technologies is they use them to extend existing practices. So they do whatever they were doing before but with the new technology. So we used to write our notes on chalkboards, and then we wrote our notes on whiteboards, and then we put them on acetate sheets, and then they got projected onto SMART Boards, into LCD projectors. It’s the same notes. We just reproduce them in all these different formats. If you give teachers enough time and support and coaching, they will invent new kinds of practices. Unfortunately, the second pattern that we see is that, where there are benefits to new technologies, they tend to disproportionately benefit the affluent.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>The first things that happen when teachers get access to new technologies is they use them to extend existing practices. So they do whatever they were doing before but with the new technology. So we used to write our notes on chalkboards, and then we wrote our notes on whiteboards, and then we put them on acetate sheets, and then they got projected onto SMART Boards, into LCD projectors. It’s the same notes. We just reproduce them in all these different formats. If you give teachers enough time and support and coaching, they will invent new kinds of practices. Unfortunately, the second pattern that we see is that, where there are benefits to new technologies, they tend to disproportionately benefit the affluent.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They benefit people with the financial, social, and technical capital to take advantage of new innovations. So for instance, in 2012, we invented these giant, these massive open online courses, and the main thing that we found is that they were pretty good for helping people earn their second master’s degree.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They benefit people with the financial, social, and technical capital to take advantage of new innovations. So for instance, in 2012, we invented these giant, these massive open online courses, and the main thing that we found is that they were pretty good for helping people earn their second master’s degree.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So if you were already educated, already affluent person, there are these great new opportunities for you, and it turned out that they really weren’t very good at helping onboard new kinds of students into the higher education system. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So if you were already educated, already affluent person, there are these great new opportunities for you, and it turned out that they really weren’t very good at helping onboard new kinds of students into the higher education system. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The third pattern that we see over and over again is that technologies are only as powerful as the communities that guide their use. So we’re constantly hoping that we can invent the software or these machines. You just sort of download things onto a bunch of people’s computers, and all of a sudden, learning gets better. And that essentially never happens. What can happen, where you can see improvements in learning, is when teachers have time to experiment and to try new things and to collaborate with their colleagues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The third pattern that we see over and over again is that technologies are only as powerful as the communities that guide their use. So we’re constantly hoping that we can invent the software or these machines. You just sort of download things onto a bunch of people’s computers, and all of a sudden, learning gets better. And that essentially never happens. What can happen, where you can see improvements in learning, is when teachers have time to experiment and to try new things and to collaborate with their colleagues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Principals come up with new disciplinary standards. Students learn new routines. Families learn new ways of helping people. When whole communities have a chance to make improvements, you know, across the curriculum and lesson planning with technologies, that’s when we can sometimes see some benefits. And, we should typically expect that benefits are modest, because the benefits of anything that we do in educational settings are typically modest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Principals come up with new disciplinary standards. Students learn new routines. Families learn new ways of helping people. When whole communities have a chance to make improvements, you know, across the curriculum and lesson planning with technologies, that’s when we can sometimes see some benefits. And, we should typically expect that benefits are modest, because the benefits of anything that we do in educational settings are typically modest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you want to make education better, what you’re usually doing is, like, putting your shoulder to the wheel for a long time and being like, “Oh, it’s one percent better this year. That’s great. Let’s see if we can make it one percent better again next year.” Which is, of course, not at all what techno-utopians want to have happen or describing what happened, where there’s this giant disjunction with the past, and everything is better afterwards.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you want to make education better, what you’re usually doing is, like, putting your shoulder to the wheel for a long time and being like, “Oh, it’s one percent better this year. That’s great. Let’s see if we can make it one percent better again next year.” Which is, of course, not at all what techno-utopians want to have happen or describing what happened, where there’s this giant disjunction with the past, and everything is better afterwards.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s kind of fun to think that way. There’s not a lot of historical evidence for it, and, I mean, I think the reason why I critique that approach the most is that it tends to be where you see people wasting a lot of time and money. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s kind of fun to think that way. There’s not a lot of historical evidence for it, and, I mean, I think the reason why I critique that approach the most is that it tends to be where you see people wasting a lot of time and money. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s do a couple of examples here. So can you give us a couple of examples of times when techno-utopians came in and said, “This is it. This is going to change everything,” and then what actually happened? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s do a couple of examples here. So can you give us a couple of examples of times when techno-utopians came in and said, “This is it. This is going to change everything,” and then what actually happened? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, you got to start with the OG, Thomas Edison. Wow, so my man, a century ago, Thomas Edison, went in front of Congress, I think it was in 1913, and said, “In 10 years, textbooks will be gone, that they’ll be completely replaced by film strips, and this is gonna be a good thing as computers have been introduced” – I mean, radio went through this phase. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, you got to start with the OG, Thomas Edison. Wow, so my man, a century ago, Thomas Edison, went in front of Congress, I think it was in 1913, and said, “In 10 years, textbooks will be gone, that they’ll be completely replaced by film strips, and this is gonna be a good thing as computers have been introduced” – I mean, radio went through this phase. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a Larry Cuban has a great book called Teachers and Machines with a photograph in it, of a big, like, an armour-sized radio set. And it says, “With radio, the underprivileged school becomes a privileged one.” And so the idea that, like, we’re gonna have the best experts in the world broadcast radio lectures, radio lessons into homes all across the country, and it’s gonna be totally transformative of how students learn. Massive open online courses are probably the one that most recently went through higher education.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s a Larry Cuban has a great book called Teachers and Machines with a photograph in it, of a big, like, an armour-sized radio set. And it says, “With radio, the underprivileged school becomes a privileged one.” And so the idea that, like, we’re gonna have the best experts in the world broadcast radio lectures, radio lessons into homes all across the country, and it’s gonna be totally transformative of how students learn. Massive open online courses are probably the one that most recently went through higher education.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, I don’t know, Sebastian Thrun, who was a Google employee, a founder of Udacity, said that, “In 10 years, there will be fifty universities left, and Udacity might be one of them.” And as it turns out, today, sitting here in 2026, there are more than fifty universities that are left. People were really enthusiastic about the web, online courses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, I don’t know, Sebastian Thrun, who was a Google employee, a founder of Udacity, said that, “In 10 years, there will be fifty universities left, and Udacity might be one of them.” And as it turns out, today, sitting here in 2026, there are more than fifty universities that are left. People were really enthusiastic about the web, online courses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There was a book called Disrupting Class, which Clay Christensen wrote. He’s the developer of the theory of disruptive innovation. In 2009, he said that in 10 years, by 2019, half of all secondary school courses would be mediated online, that they would cost a third as much to deliver, and they would have better outcomes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There was a book called Disrupting Class, which Clay Christensen wrote. He’s the developer of the theory of disruptive innovation. In 2009, he said that in 10 years, by 2019, half of all secondary school courses would be mediated online, that they would cost a third as much to deliver, and they would have better outcomes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And my hunch is, if any of your listeners wander to their local public high school, they will not find that half of the classes are delivered online, that they will not find that the costs of running educational institutions have gone down by sixty-six percent, and they will not find, that the educational outcomes of the online learning experiences are substantially better than the ones that are being mediated by teachers. So there’s a pile of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And my hunch is, if any of your listeners wander to their local public high school, they will not find that half of the classes are delivered online, that they will not find that the costs of running educational institutions have gone down by sixty-six percent, and they will not find, that the educational outcomes of the online learning experiences are substantially better than the ones that are being mediated by teachers. So there’s a pile of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, this does not mean that these previous technologies haven’t changed anything about the classroom experience, or that they didn’t feel, in small ways, kind of magical. Here’s a story Justin likes to tell, one from before he became a researcher, back when he was a teacher.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, this does not mean that these previous technologies haven’t changed anything about the classroom experience, or that they didn’t feel, in small ways, kind of magical. Here’s a story Justin likes to tell, one from before he became a researcher, back when he was a teacher.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> So when I went to go get my first teaching job, the department head was interviewing me the summer before and he said, “Can you teach world history?”And I said, “No, but I promise that if you hire me by September, I’ll figure out how to teach world history.” And he said, “Well, maybe.” And he said, “All right, one more thing, you’re gonna be teaching in this kind of trial classroom where there’s a cart of laptops in the corner. There are these blue and orange clamshell MacBooks”, this sort of iconic form factor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> So when I went to go get my first teaching job, the department head was interviewing me the summer before and he said, “Can you teach world history?”And I said, “No, but I promise that if you hire me by September, I’ll figure out how to teach world history.” And he said, “Well, maybe.” And he said, “All right, one more thing, you’re gonna be teaching in this kind of trial classroom where there’s a cart of laptops in the corner. There are these blue and orange clamshell MacBooks”, this sort of iconic form factor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he said, you know, “And we’ve used ninth grade world history as sort of a testing bed to,” this was in 2003, “to see how these new computers could affect teaching and learning.” I said, “You can put a cart of bananas in the back corner of the classroom and I’ll teach with them. I just really need this job.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he said, you know, “And we’ve used ninth grade world history as sort of a testing bed to,” this was in 2003, “to see how these new computers could affect teaching and learning.” I said, “You can put a cart of bananas in the back corner of the classroom and I’ll teach with them. I just really need this job.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he went ahead and hired me, and it was really fun teaching in that classroom. It was a moment where the world’s government and archives and museums were rapidly digitizing primary sources. And so as a history teacher, with those computers, I could really do some things that were quite different from my own high school education where, you know, maybe I had a book of primary source documents with 20 documents in it or something like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he went ahead and hired me, and it was really fun teaching in that classroom. It was a moment where the world’s government and archives and museums were rapidly digitizing primary sources. And so as a history teacher, with those computers, I could really do some things that were quite different from my own high school education where, you know, maybe I had a book of primary source documents with 20 documents in it or something like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now I can, you know, you just sort of imagine like, oh, what was, you know, I wanna teach my students about the Harlem Renaissance. Oh, the Smithsonian has 20,000 song sheets from the Harlem Renaissance. They can each study their own document, which maybe nobody has looked at, in the last hundred years or something like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now I can, you know, you just sort of imagine like, oh, what was, you know, I wanna teach my students about the Harlem Renaissance. Oh, the Smithsonian has 20,000 song sheets from the Harlem Renaissance. They can each study their own document, which maybe nobody has looked at, in the last hundred years or something like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Now, Justin says this was great. His students got a taste of what real historians do, find their own sources and documents and interpret them. But it also came with some hidden costs, in many ways, much greater than those of the computers themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Now, Justin says this was great. His students got a taste of what real historians do, find their own sources and documents and interpret them. But it also came with some hidden costs, in many ways, much greater than those of the computers themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I was working in a private school, and I also recognized that the kinds of resources that were required to keep those computers running, to keep them charged, to keep our networks running, to find the productive things that students were doing and to highlight them, to find the malicious things that students were doing and stop them, was an enormous amount of resources.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I was working in a private school, and I also recognized that the kinds of resources that were required to keep those computers running, to keep them charged, to keep our networks running, to find the productive things that students were doing and to highlight them, to find the malicious things that students were doing and stop them, was an enormous amount of resources.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the sort of incredible possibility of what students and me as a teacher could do with new computers was always balanced against the challenges and realities of turning those new affordances into everyday routines of learning that really helped students. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the sort of incredible possibility of what students and me as a teacher could do with new computers was always balanced against the challenges and realities of turning those new affordances into everyday routines of learning that really helped students. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So fun, genuinely interesting, but not necessarily a game changer, and very resource intensive. I could see where this was going, and I wanted to know, is ChatGPT really just computers in classrooms all over again? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So fun, genuinely interesting, but not necessarily a game changer, and very resource intensive. I could see where this was going, and I wanted to know, is ChatGPT really just computers in classrooms all over again? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah. Well, what is different, if anything, about generative AI? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Yeah. Well, what is different, if anything, about generative AI? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I think we will by and large see those same kinds of patterns, I mean, people get really enthusiastic about the new technology that are in front of them to the point of dismissing the magic of previous technologies. There’s sort of an argument that emerges, which is kind of like… I’m calling it the web was met. Like you hear people say, like, “Well, you know, this AI thing is just totally different. I mean, we-\u003cs> \u003c/s>like, what could the web have possibly done?” I was like, “My guy, we took a handheld supercomputer, and we put it in the pocket of every child 13 years older in the networked world. We connected them to basically the world’s corpus of information, to every person they know, to every expert you can possibly imagine, and the effects on education range from not that much to maybe actually not that good.” You know, to the point where schools across the country are banning those mobile devices from people’s classrooms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I think we will by and large see those same kinds of patterns, I mean, people get really enthusiastic about the new technology that are in front of them to the point of dismissing the magic of previous technologies. There’s sort of an argument that emerges, which is kind of like… I’m calling it the web was met. Like you hear people say, like, “Well, you know, this AI thing is just totally different. I mean, we-\u003cs> \u003c/s>like, what could the web have possibly done?” I was like, “My guy, we took a handheld supercomputer, and we put it in the pocket of every child 13 years older in the networked world. We connected them to basically the world’s corpus of information, to every person they know, to every expert you can possibly imagine, and the effects on education range from not that much to maybe actually not that good.” You know, to the point where schools across the country are banning those mobile devices from people’s classrooms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Justin says that like previous technologies, there will be some things that AI is really good at. They just won’t be, in his words, “transformative.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Justin says that like previous technologies, there will be some things that AI is really good at. They just won’t be, in his words, “transformative.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> They seem to be pretty good at translation. Like, maybe that will become less expensive, and that will be sort of helpful, but we actually… It’s gonna find that it’s not transformative to schools because, like, just translating materials is not, like, the only thing you need to unlock educating, you know, students that come from all over the world and speak all kinds of different languages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> They seem to be pretty good at translation. Like, maybe that will become less expensive, and that will be sort of helpful, but we actually… It’s gonna find that it’s not transformative to schools because, like, just translating materials is not, like, the only thing you need to unlock educating, you know, students that come from all over the world and speak all kinds of different languages.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m kind of enthusiastic about writing feedback, maybe. You know, one of the things we know is that, like, you need a lot of feedback to improve at things, and the machines seem to be able to generate reasonable writing feedback, but then you get other kinds of reports from classrooms that are like, “Yeah, my students really just want feedback from me, the human being teacher in the room,” because it turns out that most of what motivates us to learn is our social relationships with one another, and it doesn’t seem like social relationships with chatbots is a very promising direction for humanity to go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m kind of enthusiastic about writing feedback, maybe. You know, one of the things we know is that, like, you need a lot of feedback to improve at things, and the machines seem to be able to generate reasonable writing feedback, but then you get other kinds of reports from classrooms that are like, “Yeah, my students really just want feedback from me, the human being teacher in the room,” because it turns out that most of what motivates us to learn is our social relationships with one another, and it doesn’t seem like social relationships with chatbots is a very promising direction for humanity to go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, there is at least one kind of disruption that absolutely is happening in schools right now. So this very deep intel comes from my husband. He is a Chicago public school teacher. He teaches at high school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, there is at least one kind of disruption that absolutely is happening in schools right now. So this very deep intel comes from my husband. He is a Chicago public school teacher. He teaches at high school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Excellent!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And so I asked him, I was like, “All right, I’m gonna talk to this ed tech expert.” Like, “Give me the lowdown. Like, what is happening in your high school?” And so he had a number of things to say, and so I’m gonna share these with you. I think we’ll do it, like, one at a time, and you can tell me if you are in any way surprised by this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And so I asked him, I was like, “All right, I’m gonna talk to this ed tech expert.” Like, “Give me the lowdown. Like, what is happening in your high school?” And so he had a number of things to say, and so I’m gonna share these with you. I think we’ll do it, like, one at a time, and you can tell me if you are in any way surprised by this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, to prevent students from using these chatbots to just do entire homework assignments, there’s been a big shift toward in-class assignments done on paper, which does seem to help with that cheating problem, but it introduces another challenge, which is that you’re then not spending that class time actually doing instruction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, to prevent students from using these chatbots to just do entire homework assignments, there’s been a big shift toward in-class assignments done on paper, which does seem to help with that cheating problem, but it introduces another challenge, which is that you’re then not spending that class time actually doing instruction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Happening all over the place, happening in universities, happening in lots of different contexts. If, like definitely, one potential thing to be sad about is that, like, if you believed it could be possible that five years ago you could send students home to write stuff and be reasonably likely that they would write stuff, and then you could use class for the time of being together and engaging with one another.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Happening all over the place, happening in universities, happening in lots of different contexts. If, like definitely, one potential thing to be sad about is that, like, if you believed it could be possible that five years ago you could send students home to write stuff and be reasonably likely that they would write stuff, and then you could use class for the time of being together and engaging with one another.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And now it sounds like your husband, like many other teachers, believes, “If I want to read something that my students have actually written, I pretty much have to put them in a room and watch them write it themselves.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And now it sounds like your husband, like many other teachers, believes, “If I want to read something that my students have actually written, I pretty much have to put them in a room and watch them write it themselves.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah, I think it’s quite possible that there are millions of fewer minutes of homework being assigned than in previous years. And if you believe that homework gives students practice that’s valuable for their learning, then that could be a massive drawdown in the amount of learning time that students are doing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Yeah, I think it’s quite possible that there are millions of fewer minutes of homework being assigned than in previous years. And if you believe that homework gives students practice that’s valuable for their learning, then that could be a massive drawdown in the amount of learning time that students are doing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So he and his colleagues have not entirely given up on the idea of homework, but what they’ve done is try to use technology to fight technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So he and his colleagues have not entirely given up on the idea of homework, but what they’ve done is try to use technology to fight technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So he and his colleagues pay out of pocket, mind you, for a Google Doc extension that shows them a detailed history of the revisions made to a document. So the idea is you can actually see a video of an essay being constructed in real time, kind of sped up. And the downside is that it is still possible for students to cheat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So he and his colleagues pay out of pocket, mind you, for a Google Doc extension that shows them a detailed history of the revisions made to a document. So the idea is you can actually see a video of an essay being constructed in real time, kind of sped up. And the downside is that it is still possible for students to cheat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>They just, they ask ChatGPT to write the essay, and then they’re literally sitting there, like, typing the essay from ChatGPT into Google Docs at, like, roughly a pace that they think it would look like you know, a 17-year-old comes up with thoughts in a unique manner and things like that. It’s kind of an interesting learning experience for the students, but obviously they’re not learning the thing that they’re supposed to be doing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>They just, they ask ChatGPT to write the essay, and then they’re literally sitting there, like, typing the essay from ChatGPT into Google Docs at, like, roughly a pace that they think it would look like you know, a 17-year-old comes up with thoughts in a unique manner and things like that. It’s kind of an interesting learning experience for the students, but obviously they’re not learning the thing that they’re supposed to be doing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah, like, the best possible use of your husband’s expertise is not surveilling students’ writing. I think we could find that as we ramp up the level of surveillance in schools, that that’s really not good for a democratic society, that you know, that a certain amount of privacy, a certain amount of freedom from surveillance is actually necessary for the Republic to continue as a Republic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Yeah, like, the best possible use of your husband’s expertise is not surveilling students’ writing. I think we could find that as we ramp up the level of surveillance in schools, that that’s really not good for a democratic society, that you know, that a certain amount of privacy, a certain amount of freedom from surveillance is actually necessary for the Republic to continue as a Republic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the context that he’s in, what he’s doing is sensible, but if you aggregate that context across a lot of classrooms, you’re like, “Oh, that could be really bad, actually.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the context that he’s in, what he’s doing is sensible, but if you aggregate that context across a lot of classrooms, you’re like, “Oh, that could be really bad, actually.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And I’ll share one more with you. So the last thing he mentioned is building, he calls it “layers of resistance.” So for an essay, this might mean breaking down an assignment into a bunch of different pieces. Then students do each piece separately, and then once they’ve already done that work, they then combine it into a longer piece. So, you are making it easier to do the eventual assignment yourself since you’ve had to do earlier parts yourself before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And I’ll share one more with you. So the last thing he mentioned is building, he calls it “layers of resistance.” So for an essay, this might mean breaking down an assignment into a bunch of different pieces. Then students do each piece separately, and then once they’ve already done that work, they then combine it into a longer piece. So, you are making it easier to do the eventual assignment yourself since you’ve had to do earlier parts yourself before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But you’re also making it harder to cheat because that would be, you know, just a lot more difficult to cheat at each of those steps and then combine them into cheating. And again, he says it’s fairly effective, and that’s kinda like his favorite strategy right now. And I asked him, I said, “Well, is this having the effect of requiring your students to kind of use training wheels to think longer than they would otherwise?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But you’re also making it harder to cheat because that would be, you know, just a lot more difficult to cheat at each of those steps and then combine them into cheating. And again, he says it’s fairly effective, and that’s kinda like his favorite strategy right now. And I asked him, I said, “Well, is this having the effect of requiring your students to kind of use training wheels to think longer than they would otherwise?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> So training wheels to think is oftentimes better than we imagine it is. There’s a group of educational researchers that are interested in this set of ideas called cognitive load theory, and an idea that we often have is that people become experts by behaving like experts. And they sort of argue, “No, no, no when people develop expertise, it looks quite different than being an expert.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> So training wheels to think is oftentimes better than we imagine it is. There’s a group of educational researchers that are interested in this set of ideas called cognitive load theory, and an idea that we often have is that people become experts by behaving like experts. And they sort of argue, “No, no, no when people develop expertise, it looks quite different than being an expert.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I mean, you do, I think, Jess, have a good intuition there, which is like, “man, at some point, the kids, like, before they leave high school, probably just need to be able to write the essay.” Like, that it seems like that would be a pretty good thing, that we would want young people to be able to independently generate an argument in prose.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I mean, you do, I think, Jess, have a good intuition there, which is like, “man, at some point, the kids, like, before they leave high school, probably just need to be able to write the essay.” Like, that it seems like that would be a pretty good thing, that we would want young people to be able to independently generate an argument in prose.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At least for the last, like, 30 years, we’ve thought that’s a pretty good idea to do, you know, with computers in particular. And boy, is generative AI making it hard for teachers to assign that task that we think is pretty good. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At least for the last, like, 30 years, we’ve thought that’s a pretty good idea to do, you know, with computers in particular. And boy, is generative AI making it hard for teachers to assign that task that we think is pretty good. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>But after going into these specifics, like, wouldn’t you agree that this is pretty transformative in terms of what students are actually doing during the school day?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>But after going into these specifics, like, wouldn’t you agree that this is pretty transformative in terms of what students are actually doing during the school day?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I mean, definitely not transformative in the sense of, “Boy, this is great.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I mean, definitely not transformative in the sense of, “Boy, this is great.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Justin really wouldn’t take the bait here. He was adamant. No, we don’t have any great evidence that how teachers and students actually spend their days, think lectures, group work, has really changed that much over the past couple of years, or for that matter, the past few decades, even if take-home essays are basically off the table now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Justin really wouldn’t take the bait here. He was adamant. No, we don’t have any great evidence that how teachers and students actually spend their days, think lectures, group work, has really changed that much over the past couple of years, or for that matter, the past few decades, even if take-home essays are basically off the table now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I kept at him. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I kept at him. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It does seem like one really big difference right now is that there’s a lot of discussions about how AI is or isn’t going to change the kind of future and work that we’re preparing students for. I’m curious if you’re seeing, you know, is that impacting students’ motivation to learn, which would obviously have a very big impact in the classrooms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It does seem like one really big difference right now is that there’s a lot of discussions about how AI is or isn’t going to change the kind of future and work that we’re preparing students for. I’m curious if you’re seeing, you know, is that impacting students’ motivation to learn, which would obviously have a very big impact in the classrooms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I guess it also could start to change the question of what school should be for. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I guess it also could start to change the question of what school should be for. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Yes. New technologies are a great catalyst to provoke conversations about what schools are for. In the last few decades, we’ve been particularly interested in the question, like, how do you prepare individuals for work in the labor market?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Yes. New technologies are a great catalyst to provoke conversations about what schools are for. In the last few decades, we’ve been particularly interested in the question, like, how do you prepare individuals for work in the labor market?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although if you go through the history of schooling, you know, in the United States, we have public schools as a bulwark of our democracy. When Thomas Jefferson wrote about public schooling in the notes of the State of Virginia, and proposed the system of public schooling, it would be so that our nascent democracy would continue to exist and have citizens who are prepared to take on their roles as citizens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although if you go through the history of schooling, you know, in the United States, we have public schools as a bulwark of our democracy. When Thomas Jefferson wrote about public schooling in the notes of the State of Virginia, and proposed the system of public schooling, it would be so that our nascent democracy would continue to exist and have citizens who are prepared to take on their roles as citizens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, you know, citizenship is gonna change with generative AI, too, and so we should be thinking about some of those kinds of changes. My hunch is if you went to all of the K-12 schools in the United States, you would not see huge changes in student motivation because like, students are not that great at thinking about their long-term futures.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, you know, citizenship is gonna change with generative AI, too, and so we should be thinking about some of those kinds of changes. My hunch is if you went to all of the K-12 schools in the United States, you would not see huge changes in student motivation because like, students are not that great at thinking about their long-term futures.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, students primarily, like, they do not care that much about the subjects that we teach, for the most part. They care a ton about their teacher and their peers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, students primarily, like, they do not care that much about the subjects that we teach, for the most part. They care a ton about their teacher and their peers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, whether the students feel it or not, I guess my question would be to you, do you think that schools should be rethinking what education is for in this moment?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, whether the students feel it or not, I guess my question would be to you, do you think that schools should be rethinking what education is for in this moment?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> I don’t know – I think we should start by saying we don’t know. Not only do we not know, but historically, when we’ve made some of these guesses in the past, we’ve been wrong. So you could look at things like, you know, the sort of computer science industry telling people that it’s enormously important to learn to code in order to get good jobs, and now there’s a possibility that computer programming won’t actually be a very viable field in the near future.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> I don’t know – I think we should start by saying we don’t know. Not only do we not know, but historically, when we’ve made some of these guesses in the past, we’ve been wrong. So you could look at things like, you know, the sort of computer science industry telling people that it’s enormously important to learn to code in order to get good jobs, and now there’s a possibility that computer programming won’t actually be a very viable field in the near future.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, and these things go back histor- You know, in the 19th century, there were a group of educators who passionately believed that you really had to teach sentence diagramming – that if you didn’t teach sentence diagramming, like, Western civilization would fall. And we’ve mostly stopped teaching sentence diagramming, and maybe Western civilization will fall apart, but it’s probably not gonna be for the lack of sentence diagramming.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, and these things go back histor- You know, in the 19th century, there were a group of educators who passionately believed that you really had to teach sentence diagramming – that if you didn’t teach sentence diagramming, like, Western civilization would fall. And we’ve mostly stopped teaching sentence diagramming, and maybe Western civilization will fall apart, but it’s probably not gonna be for the lack of sentence diagramming.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Cursive. The great cursive debate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Cursive. The great cursive debate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>The great cursive debate continues. Here, here, here are two stories you could tell about AI. One story you could tell about AI is that there is a lot to learn to figure out how to use AI, and that students should begin the process of learning that as soon as possible, that there should be a set of scaffold experiences, that we should change our curriculum, so that as people get older and older, there are more and more tasks that they do in partnership with AI, ’cause partnering with AI is hard to learn how to do, and if they do it with the supervision of teachers, they’ll be better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>The great cursive debate continues. Here, here, here are two stories you could tell about AI. One story you could tell about AI is that there is a lot to learn to figure out how to use AI, and that students should begin the process of learning that as soon as possible, that there should be a set of scaffold experiences, that we should change our curriculum, so that as people get older and older, there are more and more tasks that they do in partnership with AI, ’cause partnering with AI is hard to learn how to do, and if they do it with the supervision of teachers, they’ll be better.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A second story that you could tell is that getting generative AI to spit stuff out is actually super easy, that there really is not that much to learn, and that what really differentiates people who are proficient and less proficient with using generative AI is whether or not they can evaluate output. Since the output is highly uneven, what you really need are people who can say, “Oh, this is a good idea, this is a good practice, and this one is not.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A second story that you could tell is that getting generative AI to spit stuff out is actually super easy, that there really is not that much to learn, and that what really differentiates people who are proficient and less proficient with using generative AI is whether or not they can evaluate output. Since the output is highly uneven, what you really need are people who can say, “Oh, this is a good idea, this is a good practice, and this one is not.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It could be that there’s actually very little general expertise that you can develop to distinguish good output from bad output. What you probably primarily need is domain knowledge. Like, if you ask ChatGPT a question about plumbing, there’s nothing about AI which is gonna tell you whether or not it gave you a good plumbing answer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It could be that there’s actually very little general expertise that you can develop to distinguish good output from bad output. What you probably primarily need is domain knowledge. Like, if you ask ChatGPT a question about plumbing, there’s nothing about AI which is gonna tell you whether or not it gave you a good plumbing answer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What you need to know about is plumbing. If that was the case, if domain expertise was sort of the key differentiator in people skills in using AI, then that would be pretty good news for schools and universities, ’cause the main thing they’ve done for however many hundreds of years is try to help people develop domain expertise.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What you need to know about is plumbing. If that was the case, if domain expertise was sort of the key differentiator in people skills in using AI, then that would be pretty good news for schools and universities, ’cause the main thing they’ve done for however many hundreds of years is try to help people develop domain expertise.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But I don’t- as a civilization, science does not know the answer to those two stories. Science cannot tell you today which of those two stories is correct. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But I don’t- as a civilization, science does not know the answer to those two stories. Science cannot tell you today which of those two stories is correct. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s interesting. So I’m guessing you’re not a big fan of some of these moves more recently by school districts, university systems, states, even potentially the federal government, to implement various AI competency or AI literacy requirements.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s interesting. So I’m guessing you’re not a big fan of some of these moves more recently by school districts, university systems, states, even potentially the federal government, to implement various AI competency or AI literacy requirements.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I will point out some of these seem more, you know, pro-technology, like giving the students the skills they need to succeed with these technologies. Others actually take a bit more of a defensive crouch, like let’s teach students the critical thinking skills so they can discriminate between the good and the bad. But there is nonetheless a lot of overlap, which is that these requirements purport to prepare students to live in a world alongside AI. And I’m curious what you make of those. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I will point out some of these seem more, you know, pro-technology, like giving the students the skills they need to succeed with these technologies. Others actually take a bit more of a defensive crouch, like let’s teach students the critical thinking skills so they can discriminate between the good and the bad. But there is nonetheless a lot of overlap, which is that these requirements purport to prepare students to live in a world alongside AI. And I’m curious what you make of those. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing that we’ve tried over the last twenty years in the United States is a strategy they might call, like, the ‘tech literacy’ strategy, where every time a new technology comes along, you define a set of skills that correlate with that technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing that we’ve tried over the last twenty years in the United States is a strategy they might call, like, the ‘tech literacy’ strategy, where every time a new technology comes along, you define a set of skills that correlate with that technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You write some policy documents that say schools should be teaching those things, and then you, like, bake it for a while and watch and see what happens. And, like, if you were to pick a sort of education reform strategy that we could be almost certain does not work, it would be that one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You write some policy documents that say schools should be teaching those things, and then you, like, bake it for a while and watch and see what happens. And, like, if you were to pick a sort of education reform strategy that we could be almost certain does not work, it would be that one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It works really well for pundits and policymakers. Like, it’s a great way for policymakers to be like, “Look, we did a thing. We passed a bill which says you have to learn some stuff.” But what you actually have to do to make a difference in schools is you have to translate those policy guidance into curriculum documents.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It works really well for pundits and policymakers. Like, it’s a great way for policymakers to be like, “Look, we did a thing. We passed a bill which says you have to learn some stuff.” But what you actually have to do to make a difference in schools is you have to translate those policy guidance into curriculum documents.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are 3.5 million teachers in the United States. Like your husband, one in every one hundred living Americans has to raise their hand and say, “I will be a teacher this year,” in order for our system to function. To improve the capacity of 3.5 million people is mind-bogglingly complex.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are 3.5 million teachers in the United States. Like your husband, one in every one hundred living Americans has to raise their hand and say, “I will be a teacher this year,” in order for our system to function. To improve the capacity of 3.5 million people is mind-bogglingly complex.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You could probably tell me the number of minutes or hours that your husband has gotten for, you know, AI-related professional development, and I bet the number is not super high. What I’m sure of is the number is not commensurate to some kind of transformational change. And so, I mean, I’m not opposed to that strategy on any kind of ideological or philosophical… Like, sounds kind of great to me. Just historically, it has not worked at all. Go ask young people – “have people, have young people describe their social media practices to you?”, and you’ll be like, “Oh, that sounds pretty bad and not good for your health, actually.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You could probably tell me the number of minutes or hours that your husband has gotten for, you know, AI-related professional development, and I bet the number is not super high. What I’m sure of is the number is not commensurate to some kind of transformational change. And so, I mean, I’m not opposed to that strategy on any kind of ideological or philosophical… Like, sounds kind of great to me. Just historically, it has not worked at all. Go ask young people – “have people, have young people describe their social media practices to you?”, and you’ll be like, “Oh, that sounds pretty bad and not good for your health, actually.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there has been ten or fifteen years of, like, social media literacy in schools. Like, ask one of your students to, like, save a file to a folder, and watch their head explode. And you’ll be like, “Oh, maybe, like, we’re not that good at teaching digital literacy in schools.” So one is just, like, an efficacy approach – But even if you believe that that, like, general approach would work, you have to sort of ask the question, like, what kinds of things are we gonna stuff into that AI fluency and AI literacy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there has been ten or fifteen years of, like, social media literacy in schools. Like, ask one of your students to, like, save a file to a folder, and watch their head explode. And you’ll be like, “Oh, maybe, like, we’re not that good at teaching digital literacy in schools.” So one is just, like, an efficacy approach – But even if you believe that that, like, general approach would work, you have to sort of ask the question, like, what kinds of things are we gonna stuff into that AI fluency and AI literacy?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, what should that be? And I think we really, to this day, don’t know. So I mentioned before that I went to DeepMind the other day in London, and I cornered every engineer I could find, and I said, “Do you know how to train a junior engineer to code with a copilot?” I asked in big groups, in small groups, one-on-one. There was not an engineer or program manager there who told me yes. Every single one of them told me, “We do not know how to do that.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, what should that be? And I think we really, to this day, don’t know. So I mentioned before that I went to DeepMind the other day in London, and I cornered every engineer I could find, and I said, “Do you know how to train a junior engineer to code with a copilot?” I asked in big groups, in small groups, one-on-one. There was not an engineer or program manager there who told me yes. Every single one of them told me, “We do not know how to do that.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> DeepMind, Google’s elite AI laboratory. Justin went to a conference there about AI and education. And when he says that software engineers told him that they don’t know how to train a junior engineer to code with a copilot, what he means is that they may have protocols and practices, but they’re not yet confident that they work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> DeepMind, Google’s elite AI laboratory. Justin went to a conference there about AI and education. And when he says that software engineers told him that they don’t know how to train a junior engineer to code with a copilot, what he means is that they may have protocols and practices, but they’re not yet confident that they work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is a major concern in the software industry. Many big companies are adopting coding assistants like Claude Code, GitHub Copilot, Cursor, and Codex. Senior engineers can thrive in this kind of environment. They can prompt the AI with exactly what they’re looking for, and then they can manually check the outputs and write their own code when something goes wrong.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is a major concern in the software industry. Many big companies are adopting coding assistants like Claude Code, GitHub Copilot, Cursor, and Codex. Senior engineers can thrive in this kind of environment. They can prompt the AI with exactly what they’re looking for, and then they can manually check the outputs and write their own code when something goes wrong.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A much more junior engineer can also use these code assistants to generate code that seems like it works, but if it has a bug or a vulnerability, they may not notice or be able to fix it. And worse, they may never get a chance to develop their skills further. So we could end up with a generation of software engineers who don’t understand how the software works, can’t fix it if it goes wrong, and have shaky ideas of what is technologically possible. Not ideal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A much more junior engineer can also use these code assistants to generate code that seems like it works, but if it has a bug or a vulnerability, they may not notice or be able to fix it. And worse, they may never get a chance to develop their skills further. So we could end up with a generation of software engineers who don’t understand how the software works, can’t fix it if it goes wrong, and have shaky ideas of what is technologically possible. Not ideal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Companies know this could be a problem, so they’re experimenting with protocols for junior engineers, but this is all so new that nobody knows yet if these protocols will work. And they were frank about this with Justin. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Companies know this could be a problem, so they’re experimenting with protocols for junior engineers, but this is all so new that nobody knows yet if these protocols will work. And they were frank about this with Justin. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>If Google, which has billions and billions of dollars at stake to answer this question, does not know how to teach a junior engineer how to code with a copilot, like, what is a seventh grade middle school’s computer science teacher supposed to do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>If Google, which has billions and billions of dollars at stake to answer this question, does not know how to teach a junior engineer how to code with a copilot, like, what is a seventh grade middle school’s computer science teacher supposed to do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, what would AI literacy in that class look like until Google can figure it out? That is an excellent point. So you mentioned earlier this idea that, in general, previous educational technologies have – if they’ve had a positive impact, it’s been toward the students who are already either high-performing or come from very high-resourced schools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, what would AI literacy in that class look like until Google can figure it out? That is an excellent point. So you mentioned earlier this idea that, in general, previous educational technologies have – if they’ve had a positive impact, it’s been toward the students who are already either high-performing or come from very high-resourced schools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I wanna ask you a little bit about special education, and in particular, kind of the extreme edges of special education. So this is kind of personal for me. My 11-year-old now, she has a rare genetic disorder, and I would say she does fall in that sort of extreme end of the continuum. Like, she literally will not look at a piece of paper if it hasn’t been, like, personalized with things that, you know, her teachers and aides and therapists know will draw her attention.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I wanna ask you a little bit about special education, and in particular, kind of the extreme edges of special education. So this is kind of personal for me. My 11-year-old now, she has a rare genetic disorder, and I would say she does fall in that sort of extreme end of the continuum. Like, she literally will not look at a piece of paper if it hasn’t been, like, personalized with things that, you know, her teachers and aides and therapists know will draw her attention.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so there’s certainly this kind of low-hanging fruit that I could see being very easy helping, you know, busy professionals in the classroom. But I do see the possibility of something a little bit more transformative in a positive way – for kids whose brains just work so differently that the professionals involved don’t always have a ton of intuition about what will work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so there’s certainly this kind of low-hanging fruit that I could see being very easy helping, you know, busy professionals in the classroom. But I do see the possibility of something a little bit more transformative in a positive way – for kids whose brains just work so differently that the professionals involved don’t always have a ton of intuition about what will work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So we talk a lot about AI having these jagged skills that are hard to understand from the outside, so being amazing at one skill and, like, hilariously bad at another. But there is a population of students for whom this is also true. I think a very concrete example here is severe language disabilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So we talk a lot about AI having these jagged skills that are hard to understand from the outside, so being amazing at one skill and, like, hilariously bad at another. But there is a population of students for whom this is also true. I think a very concrete example here is severe language disabilities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So right now, the vast majority of educational instruction is done via language. If you have a kid whose language skills are significantly more impaired than their other skills, how do you teach them? How do you assess them? Non-verbal assessments do exist, but guess how the instructions are given? They’re given in language.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So right now, the vast majority of educational instruction is done via language. If you have a kid whose language skills are significantly more impaired than their other skills, how do you teach them? How do you assess them? Non-verbal assessments do exist, but guess how the instructions are given? They’re given in language.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it just seems like this place where a tool that can radically personalize, that’s completely agnostic to how a student chooses to answer a question, that has zero preconceived ideas about what will or won’t be an effective learning tool, could be transformative. And I know this is very hand-wavy, it’s very in the distance, but is there something here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it just seems like this place where a tool that can radically personalize, that’s completely agnostic to how a student chooses to answer a question, that has zero preconceived ideas about what will or won’t be an effective learning tool, could be transformative. And I know this is very hand-wavy, it’s very in the distance, but is there something here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Oh well, for sure. So first, I’m definitely rooting for these people – I mean, I’m always rooting for the people who are making education much, much better. My, like, very boring, sometimes sad job is to, like, hop into these conversations and be like, “That would totally be great. Just, we should remember that people have been working on this for decades, and progress tends to be more measured.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Oh well, for sure. So first, I’m definitely rooting for these people – I mean, I’m always rooting for the people who are making education much, much better. My, like, very boring, sometimes sad job is to, like, hop into these conversations and be like, “That would totally be great. Just, we should remember that people have been working on this for decades, and progress tends to be more measured.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s why they call you the skeptic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s why they call you the skeptic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>There’s this whole field called universal design for learning, which, you know, has observed for a long time, sometimes better to think of curriculum as disabled than people as disabled. The curriculum is just not presenting information in ways and in mechanisms that people with different kinds of ability can access. And so we should do a better job of reinventing our curriculum and, you know, in fact, as we start bringing generative AI into the application of these kinds of things in special education, we don’t have to start from scratch. We can start from decades of effort of people using computers to do these same kinds of things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>There’s this whole field called universal design for learning, which, you know, has observed for a long time, sometimes better to think of curriculum as disabled than people as disabled. The curriculum is just not presenting information in ways and in mechanisms that people with different kinds of ability can access. And so we should do a better job of reinventing our curriculum and, you know, in fact, as we start bringing generative AI into the application of these kinds of things in special education, we don’t have to start from scratch. We can start from decades of effort of people using computers to do these same kinds of things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, translation is one thing that we mentioned, putting learning resources into different kinds of modalities. So if there are people who don’t read text well, then we can just have the machine speak the text. You know, a strategy that we’ve tried a lot is to build just-in-time learning supports for people into resources, saying like, “Okay, if this learning resource in its current form isn’t working for you, like, push this button and it will talk. Push this button and the reading level will change. Push this button and this other kind of feature of it can be modified to suit your needs.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, translation is one thing that we mentioned, putting learning resources into different kinds of modalities. So if there are people who don’t read text well, then we can just have the machine speak the text. You know, a strategy that we’ve tried a lot is to build just-in-time learning supports for people into resources, saying like, “Okay, if this learning resource in its current form isn’t working for you, like, push this button and it will talk. Push this button and the reading level will change. Push this button and this other kind of feature of it can be modified to suit your needs.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we found historically is that the kids that we most want to push those buttons are not the ones who push the button. The like high-performing kids push the ‘Help Me’ button and the kids who we most wish would push the, like, ‘Give Me Some Extra Resources’ or ‘Change This to Support Me’ button would.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we found historically is that the kids that we most want to push those buttons are not the ones who push the button. The like high-performing kids push the ‘Help Me’ button and the kids who we most wish would push the, like, ‘Give Me Some Extra Resources’ or ‘Change This to Support Me’ button would.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, when we talk to teachers across the country, adapting resources to folks with different kinds of abilities is one of the things that they’re most enthusiastic. The you know, generative AI technologies might be able to help them do, and I’m rooting for them, and I hope that there are companies that figure out ways of doing this more sustainably and at scale. And I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw some potential benefits from that. And those benefits are most likely to emerge not in the places where people download the, you know, the software that personalizes things for students with different learning capacities and things like that. It’s gonna be where whole communities are able to, like, rethink the way that they do special education in the context of that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, when we talk to teachers across the country, adapting resources to folks with different kinds of abilities is one of the things that they’re most enthusiastic. The you know, generative AI technologies might be able to help them do, and I’m rooting for them, and I hope that there are companies that figure out ways of doing this more sustainably and at scale. And I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw some potential benefits from that. And those benefits are most likely to emerge not in the places where people download the, you know, the software that personalizes things for students with different learning capacities and things like that. It’s gonna be where whole communities are able to, like, rethink the way that they do special education in the context of that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, and it’s probably gonna be that students who live in more affluent places are gonna have the kinds of systemic resources that allow for all that training and adoption to occur.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, and it’s probably gonna be that students who live in more affluent places are gonna have the kinds of systemic resources that allow for all that training and adoption to occur.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This idea of resources, it’s an important one, and not just for special education because every dollar, every hour of an educator’s time, it comes at the expense of money or time spent elsewhere, including on things that we do know work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This idea of resources, it’s an important one, and not just for special education because every dollar, every hour of an educator’s time, it comes at the expense of money or time spent elsewhere, including on things that we do know work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>And the worst case scenario, which I think we’ve seen a lot of places, is that we make substantial additional investments, both in technology platforms and then in a bunch of extra humans to manage those technology platforms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>And the worst case scenario, which I think we’ve seen a lot of places, is that we make substantial additional investments, both in technology platforms and then in a bunch of extra humans to manage those technology platforms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the cost of schooling goes up, but because at best, the gains of those technology platforms is pretty moderate, you’re like adding a whole bunch of additional expense. Like, you know, you’re basically like in the Chicago Public Schools, like you bought all these Google Docs, and you bought all of these computers so that all the students can use them, and you bought all these IT professionals because the computers break all the time, and your husband like, is like, “Well, actually, the best thing to do is to have them write essays on pencils and paper.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the cost of schooling goes up, but because at best, the gains of those technology platforms is pretty moderate, you’re like adding a whole bunch of additional expense. Like, you know, you’re basically like in the Chicago Public Schools, like you bought all these Google Docs, and you bought all of these computers so that all the students can use them, and you bought all these IT professionals because the computers break all the time, and your husband like, is like, “Well, actually, the best thing to do is to have them write essays on pencils and paper.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, that’s an awful lot of money that we’re spending on all of this infrastructure to sit in a closet while your students are writing in composition notebooks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Well, that’s an awful lot of money that we’re spending on all of this infrastructure to sit in a closet while your students are writing in composition notebooks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Will AI transform K-12 education? Justin really doesn’t think so. And frankly, I’m not sure whether to be disappointed or relieved by that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Will AI transform K-12 education? Justin really doesn’t think so. And frankly, I’m not sure whether to be disappointed or relieved by that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But on the other hand, it seems my dreams of some automated tool that can magically help my daughter learn in a way no human has yet managed to is probably not right around the corner either. And I still think that experiments will be important, including the kind of ambitious, dare I say transformative experiments that folks like my colleague Sébastien Martin are pursuing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have to know what’s possible, and then we’ll need to roll up our sleeves. Test, learn, make sure that whatever gains we see in one classroom with one teacher can eventually benefit a much larger group of students. Because, and I’ll end with this, even our resident skeptic Justin agrees. At the end of the day, alongside all the headaches, new technologies do bring new capabilities. And little by little, these capabilities can tangibly improve the status quo. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Special thanks to today’s guest, Justin Reich. Jesse Dukes is our producer. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Marketing support from Ananya Mallapragada. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "AI will revolutionize education! No, it will destroy it! Which is it? If history is any guide, the impact will be limited in either direction. In this episode, MIT education researcher Justin Reich walks through a century of hype cycles — from filmstrips and radio to MOOCs and smartphones — to show what actually changed in classrooms, and what didn’t. Drawing on interviews with 120 teachers and students across the U.S., he explains why new tools tend to extend old habits, why gains from new technology are usually modest, and why they tend to benefit affluent schools most. (Part 2/2 in our back-to-school series.)",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI will revolutionize education! No, it will destroy it! Which is it? If history is any guide, the impact will be limited in either direction. In this episode, MIT education researcher \u003ca href=\"https://tsl.mit.edu/team/justin-reich/\">Justin Reich\u003c/a> walks through a century of hype cycles — from filmstrips and radio to MOOCs and smartphones — to show what actually changed in classrooms, and what didn’t. Drawing on\u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/the-homework-machine-ep-1-buckle-up-here-it-comes/\"> interviews with 120 teachers and students\u003c/a> across the U.S., he explains why new tools tend to extend old habits, why gains from new technology are usually modest, and why they tend to benefit affluent schools most. (Part 2/2 in our back-to-school series.)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Listening and Reading:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/the-homework-machine-ep-1-buckle-up-here-it-comes/\">The Homework Machine\u003c/a> (Audio)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/dp/0674089049?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback\">Failure to Disrupt: Why Technology Alone Can’t Transform Education\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life, Automated, the show where we explore how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. I’ll admit it, I’m the kind of person who hears something about the incredible capabilities of AI and then immediately tries to project all the ways those capabilities might transform the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s actually one of the goals of this podcast, to try to determine how many of these mental leaps are grounded in evidence. And sometimes I talk to someone and I’m like, “Yeah, this is a really big deal.” Today’s conversation, not that. I’ll be talking to Justin Reich, a researcher and director of the Teaching Systems Lab at MIT, about AI’s likely impact on K-12 education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is not my first conversation about AI and education. I recently spoke with one of my colleagues here at Kellogg, Sébastien Martin, who has entirely reimagined many aspects of how he teaches his MBA students in ways I find pretty inspiring. But he’s admittedly an edge case, like if you accidentally ended up having Beethoven as your piano instructor and he gave you a warped sense of what piano lessons typically look like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Justin Reich, on the other hand, does have a sense of what lessons typically look like, not those designed by tech-savvy professors at top-ranked business schools, but in the rest of the world where budgets are limited, professional development is scarce, and time and time again, technology has entered the classroom only to fail to live up to its promise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Justin recently interviewed 120 K-12 teachers and students across America about AI for his podcast, “The Homework Machine.” His verdict? AI might modestly help some students learn some things. AI certainly is causing a lot of headaches. But somewhat surprisingly, given we’re talking about a technology that can pretty convincingly mimic human intelligence, he does not view it as transformational in the least.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a project from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. And here is my very grounded conversation with Justin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You have been described as a healthy skeptic when it comes to bringing technology into classrooms. Do you agree with that characterization?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Yeah, healthy skeptic. I was recently at DeepMind in London where one of the Google engineers said that I was the token skeptic. I don’t know. I’m not ideologically skeptical. Like, I’ve used technology, computers in my teaching for more than 20 years now, and I still do it. What I aspire to be is evidence-based.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To me, maybe that’s skeptical, but it’s not skeptical as like, “I don’t know if I trust this technology stuff.” It’s more skeptical in the sense of like, what does a century of evidence tell us, and based on that century, what would we expect to happen next? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, it seems like you’re kind of in a position to interview yourself, so I’m just gonna ask you the question you asked yourself. What does a century of experience with technology tell us about this current moment? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>The first things that happen when teachers get access to new technologies is they use them to extend existing practices. So they do whatever they were doing before but with the new technology. So we used to write our notes on chalkboards, and then we wrote our notes on whiteboards, and then we put them on acetate sheets, and then they got projected onto SMART Boards, into LCD projectors. It’s the same notes. We just reproduce them in all these different formats. If you give teachers enough time and support and coaching, they will invent new kinds of practices. Unfortunately, the second pattern that we see is that, where there are benefits to new technologies, they tend to disproportionately benefit the affluent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They benefit people with the financial, social, and technical capital to take advantage of new innovations. So for instance, in 2012, we invented these giant, these massive open online courses, and the main thing that we found is that they were pretty good for helping people earn their second master’s degree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So if you were already educated, already affluent person, there are these great new opportunities for you, and it turned out that they really weren’t very good at helping onboard new kinds of students into the higher education system. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The third pattern that we see over and over again is that technologies are only as powerful as the communities that guide their use. So we’re constantly hoping that we can invent the software or these machines. You just sort of download things onto a bunch of people’s computers, and all of a sudden, learning gets better. And that essentially never happens. What can happen, where you can see improvements in learning, is when teachers have time to experiment and to try new things and to collaborate with their colleagues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Principals come up with new disciplinary standards. Students learn new routines. Families learn new ways of helping people. When whole communities have a chance to make improvements, you know, across the curriculum and lesson planning with technologies, that’s when we can sometimes see some benefits. And, we should typically expect that benefits are modest, because the benefits of anything that we do in educational settings are typically modest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you want to make education better, what you’re usually doing is, like, putting your shoulder to the wheel for a long time and being like, “Oh, it’s one percent better this year. That’s great. Let’s see if we can make it one percent better again next year.” Which is, of course, not at all what techno-utopians want to have happen or describing what happened, where there’s this giant disjunction with the past, and everything is better afterwards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s kind of fun to think that way. There’s not a lot of historical evidence for it, and, I mean, I think the reason why I critique that approach the most is that it tends to be where you see people wasting a lot of time and money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s do a couple of examples here. So can you give us a couple of examples of times when techno-utopians came in and said, “This is it. This is going to change everything,” and then what actually happened? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, you got to start with the OG, Thomas Edison. Wow, so my man, a century ago, Thomas Edison, went in front of Congress, I think it was in 1913, and said, “In 10 years, textbooks will be gone, that they’ll be completely replaced by film strips, and this is gonna be a good thing as computers have been introduced” – I mean, radio went through this phase. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a Larry Cuban has a great book called Teachers and Machines with a photograph in it, of a big, like, an armour-sized radio set. And it says, “With radio, the underprivileged school becomes a privileged one.” And so the idea that, like, we’re gonna have the best experts in the world broadcast radio lectures, radio lessons into homes all across the country, and it’s gonna be totally transformative of how students learn. Massive open online courses are probably the one that most recently went through higher education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, I don’t know, Sebastian Thrun, who was a Google employee, a founder of Udacity, said that, “In 10 years, there will be fifty universities left, and Udacity might be one of them.” And as it turns out, today, sitting here in 2026, there are more than fifty universities that are left. People were really enthusiastic about the web, online courses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There was a book called Disrupting Class, which Clay Christensen wrote. He’s the developer of the theory of disruptive innovation. In 2009, he said that in 10 years, by 2019, half of all secondary school courses would be mediated online, that they would cost a third as much to deliver, and they would have better outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And my hunch is, if any of your listeners wander to their local public high school, they will not find that half of the classes are delivered online, that they will not find that the costs of running educational institutions have gone down by sixty-six percent, and they will not find, that the educational outcomes of the online learning experiences are substantially better than the ones that are being mediated by teachers. So there’s a pile of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, this does not mean that these previous technologies haven’t changed anything about the classroom experience, or that they didn’t feel, in small ways, kind of magical. Here’s a story Justin likes to tell, one from before he became a researcher, back when he was a teacher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> So when I went to go get my first teaching job, the department head was interviewing me the summer before and he said, “Can you teach world history?”And I said, “No, but I promise that if you hire me by September, I’ll figure out how to teach world history.” And he said, “Well, maybe.” And he said, “All right, one more thing, you’re gonna be teaching in this kind of trial classroom where there’s a cart of laptops in the corner. There are these blue and orange clamshell MacBooks”, this sort of iconic form factor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he said, you know, “And we’ve used ninth grade world history as sort of a testing bed to,” this was in 2003, “to see how these new computers could affect teaching and learning.” I said, “You can put a cart of bananas in the back corner of the classroom and I’ll teach with them. I just really need this job.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he went ahead and hired me, and it was really fun teaching in that classroom. It was a moment where the world’s government and archives and museums were rapidly digitizing primary sources. And so as a history teacher, with those computers, I could really do some things that were quite different from my own high school education where, you know, maybe I had a book of primary source documents with 20 documents in it or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now I can, you know, you just sort of imagine like, oh, what was, you know, I wanna teach my students about the Harlem Renaissance. Oh, the Smithsonian has 20,000 song sheets from the Harlem Renaissance. They can each study their own document, which maybe nobody has looked at, in the last hundred years or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Now, Justin says this was great. His students got a taste of what real historians do, find their own sources and documents and interpret them. But it also came with some hidden costs, in many ways, much greater than those of the computers themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I was working in a private school, and I also recognized that the kinds of resources that were required to keep those computers running, to keep them charged, to keep our networks running, to find the productive things that students were doing and to highlight them, to find the malicious things that students were doing and stop them, was an enormous amount of resources.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the sort of incredible possibility of what students and me as a teacher could do with new computers was always balanced against the challenges and realities of turning those new affordances into everyday routines of learning that really helped students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So fun, genuinely interesting, but not necessarily a game changer, and very resource intensive. I could see where this was going, and I wanted to know, is ChatGPT really just computers in classrooms all over again? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah. Well, what is different, if anything, about generative AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I think we will by and large see those same kinds of patterns, I mean, people get really enthusiastic about the new technology that are in front of them to the point of dismissing the magic of previous technologies. There’s sort of an argument that emerges, which is kind of like… I’m calling it the web was met. Like you hear people say, like, “Well, you know, this AI thing is just totally different. I mean, we-\u003cs> \u003c/s>like, what could the web have possibly done?” I was like, “My guy, we took a handheld supercomputer, and we put it in the pocket of every child 13 years older in the networked world. We connected them to basically the world’s corpus of information, to every person they know, to every expert you can possibly imagine, and the effects on education range from not that much to maybe actually not that good.” You know, to the point where schools across the country are banning those mobile devices from people’s classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Justin says that like previous technologies, there will be some things that AI is really good at. They just won’t be, in his words, “transformative.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> They seem to be pretty good at translation. Like, maybe that will become less expensive, and that will be sort of helpful, but we actually… It’s gonna find that it’s not transformative to schools because, like, just translating materials is not, like, the only thing you need to unlock educating, you know, students that come from all over the world and speak all kinds of different languages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m kind of enthusiastic about writing feedback, maybe. You know, one of the things we know is that, like, you need a lot of feedback to improve at things, and the machines seem to be able to generate reasonable writing feedback, but then you get other kinds of reports from classrooms that are like, “Yeah, my students really just want feedback from me, the human being teacher in the room,” because it turns out that most of what motivates us to learn is our social relationships with one another, and it doesn’t seem like social relationships with chatbots is a very promising direction for humanity to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, there is at least one kind of disruption that absolutely is happening in schools right now. So this very deep intel comes from my husband. He is a Chicago public school teacher. He teaches at high school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Excellent!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And so I asked him, I was like, “All right, I’m gonna talk to this ed tech expert.” Like, “Give me the lowdown. Like, what is happening in your high school?” And so he had a number of things to say, and so I’m gonna share these with you. I think we’ll do it, like, one at a time, and you can tell me if you are in any way surprised by this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, to prevent students from using these chatbots to just do entire homework assignments, there’s been a big shift toward in-class assignments done on paper, which does seem to help with that cheating problem, but it introduces another challenge, which is that you’re then not spending that class time actually doing instruction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Happening all over the place, happening in universities, happening in lots of different contexts. If, like definitely, one potential thing to be sad about is that, like, if you believed it could be possible that five years ago you could send students home to write stuff and be reasonably likely that they would write stuff, and then you could use class for the time of being together and engaging with one another.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now it sounds like your husband, like many other teachers, believes, “If I want to read something that my students have actually written, I pretty much have to put them in a room and watch them write it themselves.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, I think it’s quite possible that there are millions of fewer minutes of homework being assigned than in previous years. And if you believe that homework gives students practice that’s valuable for their learning, then that could be a massive drawdown in the amount of learning time that students are doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So he and his colleagues have not entirely given up on the idea of homework, but what they’ve done is try to use technology to fight technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he and his colleagues pay out of pocket, mind you, for a Google Doc extension that shows them a detailed history of the revisions made to a document. So the idea is you can actually see a video of an essay being constructed in real time, kind of sped up. And the downside is that it is still possible for students to cheat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>They just, they ask ChatGPT to write the essay, and then they’re literally sitting there, like, typing the essay from ChatGPT into Google Docs at, like, roughly a pace that they think it would look like you know, a 17-year-old comes up with thoughts in a unique manner and things like that. It’s kind of an interesting learning experience for the students, but obviously they’re not learning the thing that they’re supposed to be doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, like, the best possible use of your husband’s expertise is not surveilling students’ writing. I think we could find that as we ramp up the level of surveillance in schools, that that’s really not good for a democratic society, that you know, that a certain amount of privacy, a certain amount of freedom from surveillance is actually necessary for the Republic to continue as a Republic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the context that he’s in, what he’s doing is sensible, but if you aggregate that context across a lot of classrooms, you’re like, “Oh, that could be really bad, actually.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And I’ll share one more with you. So the last thing he mentioned is building, he calls it “layers of resistance.” So for an essay, this might mean breaking down an assignment into a bunch of different pieces. Then students do each piece separately, and then once they’ve already done that work, they then combine it into a longer piece. So, you are making it easier to do the eventual assignment yourself since you’ve had to do earlier parts yourself before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But you’re also making it harder to cheat because that would be, you know, just a lot more difficult to cheat at each of those steps and then combine them into cheating. And again, he says it’s fairly effective, and that’s kinda like his favorite strategy right now. And I asked him, I said, “Well, is this having the effect of requiring your students to kind of use training wheels to think longer than they would otherwise?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> So training wheels to think is oftentimes better than we imagine it is. There’s a group of educational researchers that are interested in this set of ideas called cognitive load theory, and an idea that we often have is that people become experts by behaving like experts. And they sort of argue, “No, no, no when people develop expertise, it looks quite different than being an expert.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I mean, you do, I think, Jess, have a good intuition there, which is like, “man, at some point, the kids, like, before they leave high school, probably just need to be able to write the essay.” Like, that it seems like that would be a pretty good thing, that we would want young people to be able to independently generate an argument in prose.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At least for the last, like, 30 years, we’ve thought that’s a pretty good idea to do, you know, with computers in particular. And boy, is generative AI making it hard for teachers to assign that task that we think is pretty good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>But after going into these specifics, like, wouldn’t you agree that this is pretty transformative in terms of what students are actually doing during the school day?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I mean, definitely not transformative in the sense of, “Boy, this is great.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Justin really wouldn’t take the bait here. He was adamant. No, we don’t have any great evidence that how teachers and students actually spend their days, think lectures, group work, has really changed that much over the past couple of years, or for that matter, the past few decades, even if take-home essays are basically off the table now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I kept at him. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It does seem like one really big difference right now is that there’s a lot of discussions about how AI is or isn’t going to change the kind of future and work that we’re preparing students for. I’m curious if you’re seeing, you know, is that impacting students’ motivation to learn, which would obviously have a very big impact in the classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess it also could start to change the question of what school should be for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Yes. New technologies are a great catalyst to provoke conversations about what schools are for. In the last few decades, we’ve been particularly interested in the question, like, how do you prepare individuals for work in the labor market?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although if you go through the history of schooling, you know, in the United States, we have public schools as a bulwark of our democracy. When Thomas Jefferson wrote about public schooling in the notes of the State of Virginia, and proposed the system of public schooling, it would be so that our nascent democracy would continue to exist and have citizens who are prepared to take on their roles as citizens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, citizenship is gonna change with generative AI, too, and so we should be thinking about some of those kinds of changes. My hunch is if you went to all of the K-12 schools in the United States, you would not see huge changes in student motivation because like, students are not that great at thinking about their long-term futures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, students primarily, like, they do not care that much about the subjects that we teach, for the most part. They care a ton about their teacher and their peers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, whether the students feel it or not, I guess my question would be to you, do you think that schools should be rethinking what education is for in this moment?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> I don’t know – I think we should start by saying we don’t know. Not only do we not know, but historically, when we’ve made some of these guesses in the past, we’ve been wrong. So you could look at things like, you know, the sort of computer science industry telling people that it’s enormously important to learn to code in order to get good jobs, and now there’s a possibility that computer programming won’t actually be a very viable field in the near future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, and these things go back histor- You know, in the 19th century, there were a group of educators who passionately believed that you really had to teach sentence diagramming – that if you didn’t teach sentence diagramming, like, Western civilization would fall. And we’ve mostly stopped teaching sentence diagramming, and maybe Western civilization will fall apart, but it’s probably not gonna be for the lack of sentence diagramming.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Cursive. The great cursive debate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>The great cursive debate continues. Here, here, here are two stories you could tell about AI. One story you could tell about AI is that there is a lot to learn to figure out how to use AI, and that students should begin the process of learning that as soon as possible, that there should be a set of scaffold experiences, that we should change our curriculum, so that as people get older and older, there are more and more tasks that they do in partnership with AI, ’cause partnering with AI is hard to learn how to do, and if they do it with the supervision of teachers, they’ll be better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A second story that you could tell is that getting generative AI to spit stuff out is actually super easy, that there really is not that much to learn, and that what really differentiates people who are proficient and less proficient with using generative AI is whether or not they can evaluate output. Since the output is highly uneven, what you really need are people who can say, “Oh, this is a good idea, this is a good practice, and this one is not.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It could be that there’s actually very little general expertise that you can develop to distinguish good output from bad output. What you probably primarily need is domain knowledge. Like, if you ask ChatGPT a question about plumbing, there’s nothing about AI which is gonna tell you whether or not it gave you a good plumbing answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What you need to know about is plumbing. If that was the case, if domain expertise was sort of the key differentiator in people skills in using AI, then that would be pretty good news for schools and universities, ’cause the main thing they’ve done for however many hundreds of years is try to help people develop domain expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But I don’t- as a civilization, science does not know the answer to those two stories. Science cannot tell you today which of those two stories is correct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s interesting. So I’m guessing you’re not a big fan of some of these moves more recently by school districts, university systems, states, even potentially the federal government, to implement various AI competency or AI literacy requirements.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I will point out some of these seem more, you know, pro-technology, like giving the students the skills they need to succeed with these technologies. Others actually take a bit more of a defensive crouch, like let’s teach students the critical thinking skills so they can discriminate between the good and the bad. But there is nonetheless a lot of overlap, which is that these requirements purport to prepare students to live in a world alongside AI. And I’m curious what you make of those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing that we’ve tried over the last twenty years in the United States is a strategy they might call, like, the ‘tech literacy’ strategy, where every time a new technology comes along, you define a set of skills that correlate with that technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You write some policy documents that say schools should be teaching those things, and then you, like, bake it for a while and watch and see what happens. And, like, if you were to pick a sort of education reform strategy that we could be almost certain does not work, it would be that one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It works really well for pundits and policymakers. Like, it’s a great way for policymakers to be like, “Look, we did a thing. We passed a bill which says you have to learn some stuff.” But what you actually have to do to make a difference in schools is you have to translate those policy guidance into curriculum documents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are 3.5 million teachers in the United States. Like your husband, one in every one hundred living Americans has to raise their hand and say, “I will be a teacher this year,” in order for our system to function. To improve the capacity of 3.5 million people is mind-bogglingly complex.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You could probably tell me the number of minutes or hours that your husband has gotten for, you know, AI-related professional development, and I bet the number is not super high. What I’m sure of is the number is not commensurate to some kind of transformational change. And so, I mean, I’m not opposed to that strategy on any kind of ideological or philosophical… Like, sounds kind of great to me. Just historically, it has not worked at all. Go ask young people – “have people, have young people describe their social media practices to you?”, and you’ll be like, “Oh, that sounds pretty bad and not good for your health, actually.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there has been ten or fifteen years of, like, social media literacy in schools. Like, ask one of your students to, like, save a file to a folder, and watch their head explode. And you’ll be like, “Oh, maybe, like, we’re not that good at teaching digital literacy in schools.” So one is just, like, an efficacy approach – But even if you believe that that, like, general approach would work, you have to sort of ask the question, like, what kinds of things are we gonna stuff into that AI fluency and AI literacy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, what should that be? And I think we really, to this day, don’t know. So I mentioned before that I went to DeepMind the other day in London, and I cornered every engineer I could find, and I said, “Do you know how to train a junior engineer to code with a copilot?” I asked in big groups, in small groups, one-on-one. There was not an engineer or program manager there who told me yes. Every single one of them told me, “We do not know how to do that.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> DeepMind, Google’s elite AI laboratory. Justin went to a conference there about AI and education. And when he says that software engineers told him that they don’t know how to train a junior engineer to code with a copilot, what he means is that they may have protocols and practices, but they’re not yet confident that they work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is a major concern in the software industry. Many big companies are adopting coding assistants like Claude Code, GitHub Copilot, Cursor, and Codex. Senior engineers can thrive in this kind of environment. They can prompt the AI with exactly what they’re looking for, and then they can manually check the outputs and write their own code when something goes wrong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A much more junior engineer can also use these code assistants to generate code that seems like it works, but if it has a bug or a vulnerability, they may not notice or be able to fix it. And worse, they may never get a chance to develop their skills further. So we could end up with a generation of software engineers who don’t understand how the software works, can’t fix it if it goes wrong, and have shaky ideas of what is technologically possible. Not ideal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Companies know this could be a problem, so they’re experimenting with protocols for junior engineers, but this is all so new that nobody knows yet if these protocols will work. And they were frank about this with Justin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>If Google, which has billions and billions of dollars at stake to answer this question, does not know how to teach a junior engineer how to code with a copilot, like, what is a seventh grade middle school’s computer science teacher supposed to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, what would AI literacy in that class look like until Google can figure it out? That is an excellent point. So you mentioned earlier this idea that, in general, previous educational technologies have – if they’ve had a positive impact, it’s been toward the students who are already either high-performing or come from very high-resourced schools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I wanna ask you a little bit about special education, and in particular, kind of the extreme edges of special education. So this is kind of personal for me. My 11-year-old now, she has a rare genetic disorder, and I would say she does fall in that sort of extreme end of the continuum. Like, she literally will not look at a piece of paper if it hasn’t been, like, personalized with things that, you know, her teachers and aides and therapists know will draw her attention.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so there’s certainly this kind of low-hanging fruit that I could see being very easy helping, you know, busy professionals in the classroom. But I do see the possibility of something a little bit more transformative in a positive way – for kids whose brains just work so differently that the professionals involved don’t always have a ton of intuition about what will work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we talk a lot about AI having these jagged skills that are hard to understand from the outside, so being amazing at one skill and, like, hilariously bad at another. But there is a population of students for whom this is also true. I think a very concrete example here is severe language disabilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So right now, the vast majority of educational instruction is done via language. If you have a kid whose language skills are significantly more impaired than their other skills, how do you teach them? How do you assess them? Non-verbal assessments do exist, but guess how the instructions are given? They’re given in language.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it just seems like this place where a tool that can radically personalize, that’s completely agnostic to how a student chooses to answer a question, that has zero preconceived ideas about what will or won’t be an effective learning tool, could be transformative. And I know this is very hand-wavy, it’s very in the distance, but is there something here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Oh well, for sure. So first, I’m definitely rooting for these people – I mean, I’m always rooting for the people who are making education much, much better. My, like, very boring, sometimes sad job is to, like, hop into these conversations and be like, “That would totally be great. Just, we should remember that people have been working on this for decades, and progress tends to be more measured.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s why they call you the skeptic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>There’s this whole field called universal design for learning, which, you know, has observed for a long time, sometimes better to think of curriculum as disabled than people as disabled. The curriculum is just not presenting information in ways and in mechanisms that people with different kinds of ability can access. And so we should do a better job of reinventing our curriculum and, you know, in fact, as we start bringing generative AI into the application of these kinds of things in special education, we don’t have to start from scratch. We can start from decades of effort of people using computers to do these same kinds of things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, translation is one thing that we mentioned, putting learning resources into different kinds of modalities. So if there are people who don’t read text well, then we can just have the machine speak the text. You know, a strategy that we’ve tried a lot is to build just-in-time learning supports for people into resources, saying like, “Okay, if this learning resource in its current form isn’t working for you, like, push this button and it will talk. Push this button and the reading level will change. Push this button and this other kind of feature of it can be modified to suit your needs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we found historically is that the kids that we most want to push those buttons are not the ones who push the button. The like high-performing kids push the ‘Help Me’ button and the kids who we most wish would push the, like, ‘Give Me Some Extra Resources’ or ‘Change This to Support Me’ button would.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, when we talk to teachers across the country, adapting resources to folks with different kinds of abilities is one of the things that they’re most enthusiastic. The you know, generative AI technologies might be able to help them do, and I’m rooting for them, and I hope that there are companies that figure out ways of doing this more sustainably and at scale. And I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw some potential benefits from that. And those benefits are most likely to emerge not in the places where people download the, you know, the software that personalizes things for students with different learning capacities and things like that. It’s gonna be where whole communities are able to, like, rethink the way that they do special education in the context of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, and it’s probably gonna be that students who live in more affluent places are gonna have the kinds of systemic resources that allow for all that training and adoption to occur.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This idea of resources, it’s an important one, and not just for special education because every dollar, every hour of an educator’s time, it comes at the expense of money or time spent elsewhere, including on things that we do know work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>And the worst case scenario, which I think we’ve seen a lot of places, is that we make substantial additional investments, both in technology platforms and then in a bunch of extra humans to manage those technology platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the cost of schooling goes up, but because at best, the gains of those technology platforms is pretty moderate, you’re like adding a whole bunch of additional expense. Like, you know, you’re basically like in the Chicago Public Schools, like you bought all these Google Docs, and you bought all of these computers so that all the students can use them, and you bought all these IT professionals because the computers break all the time, and your husband like, is like, “Well, actually, the best thing to do is to have them write essays on pencils and paper.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, that’s an awful lot of money that we’re spending on all of this infrastructure to sit in a closet while your students are writing in composition notebooks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Will AI transform K-12 education? Justin really doesn’t think so. And frankly, I’m not sure whether to be disappointed or relieved by that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, there is something reassuring about a world where students continue to learn the same kinds of things that I learned when I was in school. It’s certainly preferable to one where the whole educational system grinds to a panicked halt because they’ve decided students don’t need to learn anything anymore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But on the other hand, it seems my dreams of some automated tool that can magically help my daughter learn in a way no human has yet managed to is probably not right around the corner either. And I still think that experiments will be important, including the kind of ambitious, dare I say transformative experiments that folks like my colleague Sébastien Martin are pursuing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have to know what’s possible, and then we’ll need to roll up our sleeves. Test, learn, make sure that whatever gains we see in one classroom with one teacher can eventually benefit a much larger group of students. Because, and I’ll end with this, even our resident skeptic Justin agrees. At the end of the day, alongside all the headaches, new technologies do bring new capabilities. And little by little, these capabilities can tangibly improve the status quo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>I mean, the things that do work, it’s probably going to be more like 10 or 20 years of development rather than sort of stumbling across something which works super well in a year or two. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So it could be transformative for the better, but it’s just going to take a ton of work and dedication and probably resources to get there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> My colleague Ken Kaedinger says that step change is what 25 years of incremental change looks like from a distance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Special thanks to today’s guest, Justin Reich. Jesse Dukes is our producer. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Marketing support from Ananya Mallapragada. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://transcript\">View full episode \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As AI tools spread through classrooms, many educators see a “cheating factory.” Kellogg Professor \u003ca href=\"https://sebastienmartin.info/\">\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> sees things differently: as a chance to reinvent how and what we teach. In his operations management class, students trade PDFs for lifelike chatbots, log conversations with Socratic AI tutors, and use AI to explore the kinds of social and political dynamics that students normally have to learn on the job. But Martin also grapples with harder questions: What about public schools with fewer resources? When should kids use AI at all? And how can students stay hopeful and true to their own interests in a wildly uncertain future? (Part 1/2 in our back-to-school series.)\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading: \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/ai-is-teaching-the-next-generation-of-m-b-a-s-the-classic-case-study-a4eb4227\">AI Is Teaching the Next Generation of M.B.A.s the Classic Case Study\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show that explores how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. By now, I’m sure you’re aware education has been hit hard by AI. It’s not exactly a secret why. You remember being a student. Maybe you are still a student. You work, you learn, you get your grade, your degree, and then you leave school better prepared for life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or at least that was the deal. Today’s students essentially have the world’s greatest cheating machine right at their fingertips, and that part about needing to learn to prepare for life, says who? If AI can do it, will you ever even need to? So maybe it’s no surprise that students are some of the heaviest adopters of AI, a trend that AI companies are very happy to facilitate, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this puts educators in a tough place. I want to be upfront about this. Education is changing in ways we still don’t understand, and educators in universities, high schools, middle schools, are on the front lines. Many are not happy about AI. They didn’t ask for it, and they have real concerns that it will harm their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Next episode, we’ll go deep into the challenges they face. But today, something different. Today, we’ll be talking to someone who looks at generative AI tools like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude, and sees mostly opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sébastien Martin is a colleague of mine here at Kellogg, an associate professor of operations. He studies AI, he teaches MBA students about AI, and in his operations management classroom, he’s replaced a lot of pen and paper-based activities with AI-powered simulations. In these simulations, rather than AI making it easier for students to finish whatever assignment is on hand, it slows them down, makes them work even harder.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I got to experience this firsthand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s a job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sébastien believes that AI has already made him not just a better instructor, but a happier, more creative, more inspired one, and his students agree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kellogg’s graduating class chose him as the winner of the 2026 David Bisenko Outstanding Professor of the Year Award. I’ve come to see Sébastien as a virtuoso of a strange new art form. And amidst the big, even existential challenges facing education, I think it’s important to tell these kinds of stories, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a project from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My conversation with Sébastien began with him telling me how, as soon as ChatGPT came on the scene, he got busy experimenting, trying to see if it could help him improve his operations management class. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> In a way, you know, when you have 140 students at the same time, for example, or even more, 200, it’s hard to have individualized conversations with everyone with my time, and I only have this time where it’s me with all the students at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they all talk to an AI that personalize the conversation to their own background, I can task the AI to connect the class content with their background. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>The idea is that a student could feed their CV into an AI chatbot that had been trained on Sébastien’s course materials, and the AI would ask some probing questions, ultimately connecting the dots between a student’s individual work experience and interests and what the course would cover.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this was kind of, was it to just get the student excited about the class? Was that kind of the point of this exercise? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So the point was for them to know even before they take it why we think it’s good for them to be there. Which changes everything because if you have the attention of people as you even just get started, then communication just flows a little bit better. And if you think about it, there’s no way for me to do this without AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien was such an early adopter of the technology that he was using it before most of his students to solve problems that had nothing to do with AI at all. But it didn’t take too long for AI to start causing problems, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know, AI came like a wrecking ball. And, you know, like, what’s even the meaning of a take-home exam anymore? You know, you can trust the students not to use ChatGPT, but we are at the point where you can just take a screenshot of the exam on your phone and get A+ for everything technical. And so it’s just unfair to ask the students to do it this way. And because, like, how do you even grade it, because some students would respect the rule and maybe a few will run out of time and ask the help of AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>It’s been well over three years since Sébastien started experimenting with AI in his classroom. And these days, nearly everything about his course looks pretty different. Some of these changes have been spurred by AI making it really, really easy for students to cheat. But Sébastien says that other changes are more about problems with the old ways of doing things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Think about our old ways to evaluate, right? I have students coming from so many different backgrounds that care about so many different things, and I have to have one exam that’s graded by people that don’t necessarily understand their background. And so what does it push us to do? It pushes us to standardization, to always asking, like, very abstract questions about things, or to focus on math instead of, like, deeper understanding about the world, because these can be evaluated more easily. I love math, but it becomes just an exercise in itself, like, almost like a Sudoku. At the end of the day, the exam is just asking them to manipulate numbers because this is what I can evaluate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s get concrete here. With simple problem sets basically out the window, what does Sébastien’s class look like today? Well, for homework, Sébastien might require his students to converse with an AI tutor for maybe 30 minutes, walking through concepts and connecting them to their own experiences. That tutor might be trained in the Socratic method so that rather than giving answers like a standard chatbot, it pushes students to do the thinking themselves. Then, instead of turning in answers, students would upload a log of their chat to be graded pass or fail. Or maybe the tutoring goes the other way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> The homework I just gave, like, a few weeks ago is the, student has to teach the AI what they learn in the last class. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ah, interesting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You see that we say learning by teaching is, like, one of the best ways to learn. And as a professor, I can say that’s very true because I created a new class on AI and I learned a lot just by teaching it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Of course, this technology is changing fast, and there’s really nothing stopping students from building their own AI agent or autonomous AI tool to interact with Sébastien’s AI, and turning in a log of that conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>That’s one of the main obstacles our instructors want to get into AI, because it just feels it’s constantly evolving, and whatever I do now, I fix a problem, another problem will appear later. So it’s a very, very real concern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and this is hard because I’ve done, you know, way back in the day I taught some classes myself, and the first time you teach something, it can be kind of a train wreck, right? And then you kinda get better over time, and you learn what works. So how do you as a professor or a teacher keep up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> I would turn the question around, and this is why I try to put my students in the loop as much as possible. It’s like, “Here’s the deal,” like, “What is good for you?” You know? “Why are we doing this homework? Why are we doing all of that?” The goal is not just to go for the grade. That would be the mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, the goal is at the end of the day, you know, you learn something. And, you know, if AI is becoming more and more of a commodity that can do anything for us, our deep expertise and our personal thoughts and what makes us unique has even more value, because that’s what differentiates all of it, rather than the things that AI can just automate, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think at the end of the day, the answer to this question is also, it’s not only on the professor’s side, it’s also on the students. Like, why are you at Kellogg? What do you wanna get out of all of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Some of the changes that Sébastien has made to his class, they aren’t planned. He’ll be in the middle of teaching, he’ll get an idea for how to make something better, and just use AI to make it happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For example, just a week before our interview, his students were in small breakout groups using class time to discuss a case study, that staple of business school education. The time was flying by. Sure, the students were having wonderful discussions in their small groups, but Sébastien was getting frustrated, realizing there would not be enough time for the entire class to reflect on the ideas that the individual groups had generated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while the students were still in their breakout groups, Sébastien explained the dilemma to Claude Code, a popular AI coding tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so Claude Code was like, “No problem. Let’s do it,” and created something, and by the time students had sent their reply, we had a custom-made software, which was kind of like a constellation of ideas that popped up on the board, and we could see quotes from all the students and the ideas that they had in common and not in common, and this enabled a much deeper conversation because I was able to share all this information instead of just, like, talking to, you know, like, three, four students that were willing to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, it’s just a small thing, but it’s changed the way I taught this class, and it did use AI, and at the end of the day, it’s just about your creativity. Like, it’s a tool that is so powerful that, you know, sometimes, you know, as an instructor, you go, “Oh, it’d be so good to have this,” and then you just use it, and it creates a much better experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you see here in that case, it increased the communications between humans. Like, of course, AI can sometimes take away from what we do, but in that case, I think it added to what we do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, there are tools already on the market that can do this kind of thing. But what was unique was that Sébastien was able to create them on the fly, in that moment for that class. And the best example of how AI has changed Sébastien’s course has to do with the experience of reading the case itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So we turned it into, instead of me giving them a PDF, I tell them that they can interview, “People” from the company and ask any question they want. And I give them access to the CEO, to the CFO, to, like, a frontline worker, to anyone, and then they have to understand the company deeply, kind of like consulting. You interview people, and you understand their relationship, and they all have very different point of views, and some of them don’t even wanna talk to you, and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, and “people” are, of course, chatbots with, like, personalities and information that you’ve given them. This is the activity that has gotten Sébastien the most attention, including a big write-up in The Wall Street Journal. I wanted to try it, and Sébastien was kind enough to mentor me through his simulation. We pull it up on his desktop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, so I am a consultant at Proxima Health Systems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you’re an AI expert, and they called you because they wanna have a big AI project, and they want it to be successful. And your point of contact is Maya Chen. She’s the leader of this After Visit AI program. Like, she has an AI agent she wants you to build. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and so I can just start talking to her and say, like, “Hey.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she’s just waiting for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There’s a whole bunch of little avatars representing different people at the company, and I can pick one to have a text chat with. I see the avatar for Maya, my point of contact, and I begin to type. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘\u003c/strong>Hi there. I’d love some clarification on what you want me to accomplish.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maya tells me that I, the AI expert consultant, will be building her company an AI tool that helps automate the after-visit forms that sales reps fill out after they visit their customers’ hospitals. And after a bit of back and forth with Maya about some of the players involved, including Marcus, a sales manager, and a bit of help from Sébastien, I start to get a sense of the nitty-gritty details involved in my assignment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so for this, we have a CRM system, a customer relationship management system, which is like this big database where rep have to enter information. But they hate it. It has to be formatted, made in a very specific way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ah, I hate it already. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>They spend hours every week. And then so this is why, like, there is this sort of tension because Marcus needs them to enter this information, but they’re like, “Yeah, it doesn’t represent what we see on the ground. Why do you want me to spend all my time on this instead of with the customer?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, got it. Maya, Marcus, and others in the company want to automate the after-visit forms that the salespeople fill out, apparently to make things easier on the sales team. But then I chat with a member of the sales team, Dana, and Dana doesn’t necessarily think AI will help. She thinks the whole customer relationship system is messed up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Dana makes a number of points. She says it’s like whiplash. She can spend 30 minutes in a unit with a nurse manager who’s stressed out of her mind. She catches the real issue. They come to a conclusion, and then she’s supposed to translate that into 12 little CRM boxes that don’t fit how hospitals actually talk, and then the managers wonder why the notes are vague.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Dana is a little suspicious of \u003cem>me\u003c/em>, the AI consultant. Here’s how she puts it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“What exactly are you trying to solve? Time, accuracy, or the manager chasing us for missing fields?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ooh.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You’re in the middle of it right now. I am in the middle of it. It’s hard to help her without more information, understanding everything.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I decide to try to get Dana in line with some tough talk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘All right, Dana. I hear what you’re saying, but you do realize that you are part of this big organization that has a lot of really important goals? I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s the job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>How dare you question that I’m doing my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Thanks, Dana. I appreciate the straight talk. I love straight talk. What would you like to see?’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now I’m really starting to understand this scenario. It’s not just about coming up with some kind of AI-powered solution to data collection. It’s about understanding the social dynamics in the company. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>‘Cause she’s very afraid. She says, “Not cutting heads.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Not cutting heads. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>She’s really afraid that you’re coming with AI trying to take over her job. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, yeah. That’s a good point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know? Because we’re automating a part of the job that she and her teams do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Once I understand that there’s anxiety in this company about AI taking jobs, and that this anxiety is driving so many problems, I start having more productive chats with the different characters, and we start making progress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is what Sebastien says this kind of AI-driven exercise is designed to explore. How to keep asking questions until you understand what’s actually going on, the problems behind the problem, the stuff that only rarely ends up on any official brief. I think there is a risk in education where I’m like, “This is the truth.” This is the answer to this problem.” And, you know, like, for example, if you go on Instagram and you have your newsfeed, you’re not asking for the next thing you wanna see. We’re just so used to just information being provided to us and not to have to think. And then you get into the middle of this and you have a “real person” you talk to, you actually need to decide what’s your next step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this is actually where all the thinking happens, right? You’re like, you need to be aware of what you understand and what you don’t understand. You need to, like, plan ahead. You need to also manage your relationship with them. And I think this is where I think the most. Actually, it’s what I feel like it’s the most important thing to think about, in life, you know, in general.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we don’t have many tools that are not meant to just, like, provide us with the answer, but are meant for us to ask the right question and for us to learn more. And I think AI is a wonderful tool for that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Here, the AI tool isn’t being used to make things easier on students. It’s not making it faster to read the case or offering up a streamlined summary. It’s slowing students down, making them think more. Or that’s the idea. So are his students learning more using this AI-powered simulation than they would’ve the old way, discussing PDFs or writing short essays? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to answer this question for sure. You can only capture it with exams and stuff like that. But AI cases, in the context of this class, were not something that was graded. They were something meant for conversations in the classroom. So then the second best I can give you is I had the most fun I’ve ever had teaching a case. Like, the participation of the students was through the roof.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They had so many ideas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien acknowledges that it’s hard to know for sure. Just because students enjoy an activity, recognize it with a teaching award, doesn’t always mean that they’re learning more. But the students tell him they’re learning more because the scenarios feel real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>The students say that it was very useful to them, especially the students who came from consulting. They say it’s exactly the type of thing I had to be good at. It’s great to see it in the context of AI and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>After the break, this strikes me as the dream scenario for AI in the classroom. But just how common is this dream scenario? Is it limited to the classrooms of super AI savvy teachers, or does Sébastien’s optimism extend to other classrooms, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I, like a lot of people, think about this technology as having the ability to both empower people and to disempower or overwhelm them. And it seems like for you, the primary experience has been one of empowerment. But I wanna point out, you are kind of a special case. You are somebody who studies AI, is very, very familiar with using algorithms, and was even before ChatGPT came on the scene, and you also teach highly motivated students at a top business school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this is not true of most educators. So my husband teaches high school at Chicago Public Schools, and he assures me that the general consensus among public high school teachers is not one of empowerment. I think a lot of schools are strapped for resources. They don’t always have the opportunity to train instructors in how to manage this technology, and a lot of them have just come to see this as a widespread cheating factory. And so I’m just kind of curious how you think about that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, first, thank you so much for asking this question. Something I think about a lot, and first it’s very important to highlight that I come from a place of privilege in so many dimensions, as you mentioned. And, you know, because I, so I speak more and more publicly, like right now, about this topic, and I’m always like, “What should you say?” Because, you know, as you saw in this conversation, I choose to highlight the positive because I know that people are very aware of the negative. And I think seeing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel can help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it is true, you know, that I was lucky to start early and lucky to be in the position I was, and to iterate over time, and I made many, many mistakes. There are things that worked, things that didn’t work. I would say the message, and I really don’t wanna deny at all what public education is going through. I’ve worked a lot also with public education and I know how hard a job it can be, but also how rewarding. What I wanna say is give it a chance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, this technology, for good or bad reason, is most likely here to stay. And if you iterate a little bit with Claude, ChatGPT, whatever, you’ll quickly realize after you overcome this barrier of, you know, not resentment, but this barrier or, like, this technology is really making my job complicated, you quickly realize that it’s a neutral technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, it can do a lot of harm, but it can also allow you as an instructor to create new things and to solve some of the problems. And at first you start very small. You know, you have all of this, like, I forgot how you were saying, like, this cheating factory thing. But then you’re like, “Oh, I can maybe use it that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And actually that had a small positive impact. And it looks like a drop in the ocean. But then because you open this door, then curiosity gets in. What if I could do this? And what if I could do that? And all I can say, I know it’s a very minimal point, is there are good things. And yes, they take time, and they take trial and error, and all I can do is show examples. But I think there is value in just knowing that you can use this technology for good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I am a parent. My kids are a little younger than the students we’ve been talking about, two elementary school-aged kids. And I personally do not want them using AI right now, partly because I think they already spend enough of their lives staring at screens. That is the perennial parenting battle of our age. But also because I want them to learn some really core skills about how to go through the world, and think about problems themselves before I provide them with the scaffolding that AI would provide. And so I wanna ask you, do you think there are some skills that people should have before they turn to AI to learn something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, of course take everything that I’m about to say with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert in that. You’re way more of an expert than me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>We’ll bring in some folks to rebut you point by point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>But, you know, and also, I wanna highlight that we hear so much about AI these days. I think what’s super, super important to say is we don’t know. You know, like they say, wisdom is to know when you don’t know. Nobody knows where AI is going, okay? Like, but then it’s still good to talk about scenarios, and your analogy with the screens or the smartphone is a great one. You know, there has been a lot of debates, on not allowing screen times and, like, this leading to, children learning more to interact with the world and with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it could be great to do this with AI. I mean, that sounds like a great strategy to me. Then, the one caveat I wanna say on this is one pet peeve that I have is I don’t think AI means anything. It’s kind of you saying humans or electricity. Like, is electricity good or bad? Should we forbid kids to access electricity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are ways to use AI that could be net positives and there are ways to use AI that could be a disaster. So when we say allow kids to access AI, often we think ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, like the basic thing you can ask all your questions. But for example, I was just talking to a parent and they were playing with their children to create their own song for a story that they invented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they used AI to like, put their lyrics that they co-created into a nice song and they were singing it together. Is it a bad use of AI or does it increase creativity? I heard another parent has ChatGPT to, you know, create like, these frames of drawing that you can draw into on things that were very personal. Like they just went on vacation somewhere and let’s actually draw what we went through. And you know you cannot buy a book that’s so personalized. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like a coloring book of their exact vacation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s, that is kind of cool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You see? Like another example and maybe more the fringe of what’s acceptable is there’s a lot of, there are ways to turn ChatGPT into something that don’t think for you. So the way AI works is there are hidden instructions, and AI follows these hidden instructions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s right. If you didn’t know, most chatbots have some version of hidden instructions to guide their use; and as a user, you can change the default settings for these instructions, specify how the AI should respond to prompts, including how much information it should provide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>In the hidden instructions called a system message, you can ask the AI, “Look, you’re talking to a child. Here’s what we really want to avoid. We want them to feel for, to think for themselves. We want them to learn how to be independent. We don’t want them to learn how to rely on you instead of thinking.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But maybe you can encourage their curiosity. And then you let the children talk to this version of ChatGPT, and the AI will just reply to their questions with other questions, and what do you think about this, and what do you think about that? Maybe it’s better than just staring at an iPad on YouTube, you know? Maybe it actually leads you to, to think a bit deeper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>For the record, I will not be tasking ChatGPT to chat with my children anytime soon, even in appropriately Socratic only ask questions mode. But that coloring book idea, it’s actually kind of a good one, and I take his point. We really don’t know. We don’t know how helpful or harmful AI will ultimately be as an educational tool. Stepping back a bit though, I wanted to know what advice he would have for students, the people on the other end of the educational process. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, the first one, which is, you know, the one thing I want us to remember from this podcast is, like, stay hopeful. Because, you know, there are reasons to despair from time to time, and especially as humans, we are really not good at dealing with uncertainty. Like, second, staying hopeful and being aware that we tend to only see the downside instead of all the unexpected upside that can come later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Everyone is in the same boat. Like, it feels like it’s me that doesn’t know what the next step to choose and so on, like what studies should I go for, how should I learn and so on. But it’s not only me, it’s the whole society that has to adapt at the same time. And I think that at least for me, it helps me feel a bit better about it, like, the idea that it’s not me that doesn’t know what to do next and it’s all of us together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s like we’re all collectively gonna go through this crazy period together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so the more we can, you know, like help each other and so on, the better it is. And, finally, what do you do? You have this huge uncertainty. I’m saying, okay, take it with a grain of salt with all the feedback you receive about what you think you should do and so on, and all of us together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think a flip side of that is, if you’re, it’s pure uncertainty and we don’t exactly know where things are going, maybe the best thing to do is to follow your heart. I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it’s better, like, try for all of us to maybe not conform as much as possible and what’s expected of us and follow more, like, our instinct. Maybe there has never been a better time to do that because the uncertainty of the system is the system is gonna change so much that maybe the best path to follow is just what we really like to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>AI is forcing students and educators to adapt. And while a lot of attention has been focused on cheating and outsourcing thinking, I think Sébastien makes a compelling case that this adaptation will have some real upsides, that new kinds of learning experiences are now possible, including ones that ask more of students, not less.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But of course, AI is not the first technology to barge into schools. Next episode, we’ll look at how previous technologies have changed education, particularly for younger students, what those technologies delivered, what they failed to deliver, and what this could mean for today’s high schoolers, middle schoolers, elementary school kids growing up alongside AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. A special thanks to today’s guest, Sébastien Martin. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, additional production by Nathan Ray, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney, marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada, administrative support, recording help, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show that explores how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. By now, I’m sure you’re aware education has been hit hard by AI. It’s not exactly a secret why. You remember being a student. Maybe you are still a student. You work, you learn, you get your grade, your degree, and then you leave school better prepared for life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show that explores how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. By now, I’m sure you’re aware education has been hit hard by AI. It’s not exactly a secret why. You remember being a student. Maybe you are still a student. You work, you learn, you get your grade, your degree, and then you leave school better prepared for life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or at least that was the deal. Today’s students essentially have the world’s greatest cheating machine right at their fingertips, and that part about needing to learn to prepare for life, says who? If AI can do it, will you ever even need to? So maybe it’s no surprise that students are some of the heaviest adopters of AI, a trend that AI companies are very happy to facilitate, thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or at least that was the deal. Today’s students essentially have the world’s greatest cheating machine right at their fingertips, and that part about needing to learn to prepare for life, says who? If AI can do it, will you ever even need to? So maybe it’s no surprise that students are some of the heaviest adopters of AI, a trend that AI companies are very happy to facilitate, thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this puts educators in a tough place. I want to be upfront about this. Education is changing in ways we still don’t understand, and educators in universities, high schools, middle schools, are on the front lines. Many are not happy about AI. They didn’t ask for it, and they have real concerns that it will harm their students.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And this puts educators in a tough place. I want to be upfront about this. Education is changing in ways we still don’t understand, and educators in universities, high schools, middle schools, are on the front lines. Many are not happy about AI. They didn’t ask for it, and they have real concerns that it will harm their students.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sébastien Martin is a colleague of mine here at Kellogg, an associate professor of operations. He studies AI, he teaches MBA students about AI, and in his operations management classroom, he’s replaced a lot of pen and paper-based activities with AI-powered simulations. In these simulations, rather than AI making it easier for students to finish whatever assignment is on hand, it slows them down, makes them work even harder.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> In a way, you know, when you have 140 students at the same time, for example, or even more, 200, it’s hard to have individualized conversations with everyone with my time, and I only have this time where it’s me with all the students at the same time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So the point was for them to know even before they take it why we think it’s good for them to be there. Which changes everything because if you have the attention of people as you even just get started, then communication just flows a little bit better. And if you think about it, there’s no way for me to do this without AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So the point was for them to know even before they take it why we think it’s good for them to be there. Which changes everything because if you have the attention of people as you even just get started, then communication just flows a little bit better. And if you think about it, there’s no way for me to do this without AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know, AI came like a wrecking ball. And, you know, like, what’s even the meaning of a take-home exam anymore? You know, you can trust the students not to use ChatGPT, but we are at the point where you can just take a screenshot of the exam on your phone and get A+ for everything technical. And so it’s just unfair to ask the students to do it this way. And because, like, how do you even grade it, because some students would respect the rule and maybe a few will run out of time and ask the help of AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know, AI came like a wrecking ball. And, you know, like, what’s even the meaning of a take-home exam anymore? You know, you can trust the students not to use ChatGPT, but we are at the point where you can just take a screenshot of the exam on your phone and get A+ for everything technical. And so it’s just unfair to ask the students to do it this way. And because, like, how do you even grade it, because some students would respect the rule and maybe a few will run out of time and ask the help of AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>It’s been well over three years since Sébastien started experimenting with AI in his classroom. And these days, nearly everything about his course looks pretty different. Some of these changes have been spurred by AI making it really, really easy for students to cheat. But Sébastien says that other changes are more about problems with the old ways of doing things. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>It’s been well over three years since Sébastien started experimenting with AI in his classroom. And these days, nearly everything about his course looks pretty different. Some of these changes have been spurred by AI making it really, really easy for students to cheat. But Sébastien says that other changes are more about problems with the old ways of doing things. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Think about our old ways to evaluate, right? I have students coming from so many different backgrounds that care about so many different things, and I have to have one exam that’s graded by people that don’t necessarily understand their background. And so what does it push us to do? It pushes us to standardization, to always asking, like, very abstract questions about things, or to focus on math instead of, like, deeper understanding about the world, because these can be evaluated more easily. I love math, but it becomes just an exercise in itself, like, almost like a Sudoku. At the end of the day, the exam is just asking them to manipulate numbers because this is what I can evaluate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Think about our old ways to evaluate, right? I have students coming from so many different backgrounds that care about so many different things, and I have to have one exam that’s graded by people that don’t necessarily understand their background. And so what does it push us to do? It pushes us to standardization, to always asking, like, very abstract questions about things, or to focus on math instead of, like, deeper understanding about the world, because these can be evaluated more easily. I love math, but it becomes just an exercise in itself, like, almost like a Sudoku. At the end of the day, the exam is just asking them to manipulate numbers because this is what I can evaluate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s get concrete here. With simple problem sets basically out the window, what does Sébastien’s class look like today? Well, for homework, Sébastien might require his students to converse with an AI tutor for maybe 30 minutes, walking through concepts and connecting them to their own experiences. That tutor might be trained in the Socratic method so that rather than giving answers like a standard chatbot, it pushes students to do the thinking themselves. Then, instead of turning in answers, students would upload a log of their chat to be graded pass or fail. Or maybe the tutoring goes the other way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s get concrete here. With simple problem sets basically out the window, what does Sébastien’s class look like today? Well, for homework, Sébastien might require his students to converse with an AI tutor for maybe 30 minutes, walking through concepts and connecting them to their own experiences. That tutor might be trained in the Socratic method so that rather than giving answers like a standard chatbot, it pushes students to do the thinking themselves. Then, instead of turning in answers, students would upload a log of their chat to be graded pass or fail. Or maybe the tutoring goes the other way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> The homework I just gave, like, a few weeks ago is the, student has to teach the AI what they learn in the last class. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> The homework I just gave, like, a few weeks ago is the, student has to teach the AI what they learn in the last class. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ah, interesting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ah, interesting. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You see that we say learning by teaching is, like, one of the best ways to learn. And as a professor, I can say that’s very true because I created a new class on AI and I learned a lot just by teaching it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You see that we say learning by teaching is, like, one of the best ways to learn. And as a professor, I can say that’s very true because I created a new class on AI and I learned a lot just by teaching it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Of course, this technology is changing fast, and there’s really nothing stopping students from building their own AI agent or autonomous AI tool to interact with Sébastien’s AI, and turning in a log of that conversation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Of course, this technology is changing fast, and there’s really nothing stopping students from building their own AI agent or autonomous AI tool to interact with Sébastien’s AI, and turning in a log of that conversation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>That’s one of the main obstacles our instructors want to get into AI, because it just feels it’s constantly evolving, and whatever I do now, I fix a problem, another problem will appear later. So it’s a very, very real concern.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>That’s one of the main obstacles our instructors want to get into AI, because it just feels it’s constantly evolving, and whatever I do now, I fix a problem, another problem will appear later. So it’s a very, very real concern.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and this is hard because I’ve done, you know, way back in the day I taught some classes myself, and the first time you teach something, it can be kind of a train wreck, right? And then you kinda get better over time, and you learn what works. So how do you as a professor or a teacher keep up?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and this is hard because I’ve done, you know, way back in the day I taught some classes myself, and the first time you teach something, it can be kind of a train wreck, right? And then you kinda get better over time, and you learn what works. So how do you as a professor or a teacher keep up?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> I would turn the question around, and this is why I try to put my students in the loop as much as possible. It’s like, “Here’s the deal,” like, “What is good for you?” You know? “Why are we doing this homework? Why are we doing all of that?” The goal is not just to go for the grade. That would be the mistake.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> I would turn the question around, and this is why I try to put my students in the loop as much as possible. It’s like, “Here’s the deal,” like, “What is good for you?” You know? “Why are we doing this homework? Why are we doing all of that?” The goal is not just to go for the grade. That would be the mistake.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, the goal is at the end of the day, you know, you learn something. And, you know, if AI is becoming more and more of a commodity that can do anything for us, our deep expertise and our personal thoughts and what makes us unique has even more value, because that’s what differentiates all of it, rather than the things that AI can just automate, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, the goal is at the end of the day, you know, you learn something. And, you know, if AI is becoming more and more of a commodity that can do anything for us, our deep expertise and our personal thoughts and what makes us unique has even more value, because that’s what differentiates all of it, rather than the things that AI can just automate, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I think at the end of the day, the answer to this question is also, it’s not only on the professor’s side, it’s also on the students. Like, why are you at Kellogg? What do you wanna get out of all of this? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I think at the end of the day, the answer to this question is also, it’s not only on the professor’s side, it’s also on the students. Like, why are you at Kellogg? What do you wanna get out of all of this? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Some of the changes that Sébastien has made to his class, they aren’t planned. He’ll be in the middle of teaching, he’ll get an idea for how to make something better, and just use AI to make it happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Some of the changes that Sébastien has made to his class, they aren’t planned. He’ll be in the middle of teaching, he’ll get an idea for how to make something better, and just use AI to make it happen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For example, just a week before our interview, his students were in small breakout groups using class time to discuss a case study, that staple of business school education. The time was flying by. Sure, the students were having wonderful discussions in their small groups, but Sébastien was getting frustrated, realizing there would not be enough time for the entire class to reflect on the ideas that the individual groups had generated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For example, just a week before our interview, his students were in small breakout groups using class time to discuss a case study, that staple of business school education. The time was flying by. Sure, the students were having wonderful discussions in their small groups, but Sébastien was getting frustrated, realizing there would not be enough time for the entire class to reflect on the ideas that the individual groups had generated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So while the students were still in their breakout groups, Sébastien explained the dilemma to Claude Code, a popular AI coding tool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So while the students were still in their breakout groups, Sébastien explained the dilemma to Claude Code, a popular AI coding tool. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so Claude Code was like, “No problem. Let’s do it,” and created something, and by the time students had sent their reply, we had a custom-made software, which was kind of like a constellation of ideas that popped up on the board, and we could see quotes from all the students and the ideas that they had in common and not in common, and this enabled a much deeper conversation because I was able to share all this information instead of just, like, talking to, you know, like, three, four students that were willing to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so Claude Code was like, “No problem. Let’s do it,” and created something, and by the time students had sent their reply, we had a custom-made software, which was kind of like a constellation of ideas that popped up on the board, and we could see quotes from all the students and the ideas that they had in common and not in common, and this enabled a much deeper conversation because I was able to share all this information instead of just, like, talking to, you know, like, three, four students that were willing to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, it’s just a small thing, but it’s changed the way I taught this class, and it did use AI, and at the end of the day, it’s just about your creativity. Like, it’s a tool that is so powerful that, you know, sometimes, you know, as an instructor, you go, “Oh, it’d be so good to have this,” and then you just use it, and it creates a much better experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, it’s just a small thing, but it’s changed the way I taught this class, and it did use AI, and at the end of the day, it’s just about your creativity. Like, it’s a tool that is so powerful that, you know, sometimes, you know, as an instructor, you go, “Oh, it’d be so good to have this,” and then you just use it, and it creates a much better experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you see here in that case, it increased the communications between humans. Like, of course, AI can sometimes take away from what we do, but in that case, I think it added to what we do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And you see here in that case, it increased the communications between humans. Like, of course, AI can sometimes take away from what we do, but in that case, I think it added to what we do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, there are tools already on the market that can do this kind of thing. But what was unique was that Sébastien was able to create them on the fly, in that moment for that class. And the best example of how AI has changed Sébastien’s course has to do with the experience of reading the case itself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, there are tools already on the market that can do this kind of thing. But what was unique was that Sébastien was able to create them on the fly, in that moment for that class. And the best example of how AI has changed Sébastien’s course has to do with the experience of reading the case itself. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So we turned it into, instead of me giving them a PDF, I tell them that they can interview, “People” from the company and ask any question they want. And I give them access to the CEO, to the CFO, to, like, a frontline worker, to anyone, and then they have to understand the company deeply, kind of like consulting. You interview people, and you understand their relationship, and they all have very different point of views, and some of them don’t even wanna talk to you, and so on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So we turned it into, instead of me giving them a PDF, I tell them that they can interview, “People” from the company and ask any question they want. And I give them access to the CEO, to the CFO, to, like, a frontline worker, to anyone, and then they have to understand the company deeply, kind of like consulting. You interview people, and you understand their relationship, and they all have very different point of views, and some of them don’t even wanna talk to you, and so on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, and “people” are, of course, chatbots with, like, personalities and information that you’ve given them. This is the activity that has gotten Sébastien the most attention, including a big write-up in The Wall Street Journal. I wanted to try it, and Sébastien was kind enough to mentor me through his simulation. We pull it up on his desktop. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, and “people” are, of course, chatbots with, like, personalities and information that you’ve given them. This is the activity that has gotten Sébastien the most attention, including a big write-up in The Wall Street Journal. I wanted to try it, and Sébastien was kind enough to mentor me through his simulation. We pull it up on his desktop. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, so I am a consultant at Proxima Health Systems?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, so I am a consultant at Proxima Health Systems?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you’re an AI expert, and they called you because they wanna have a big AI project, and they want it to be successful. And your point of contact is Maya Chen. She’s the leader of this After Visit AI program. Like, she has an AI agent she wants you to build. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you’re an AI expert, and they called you because they wanna have a big AI project, and they want it to be successful. And your point of contact is Maya Chen. She’s the leader of this After Visit AI program. Like, she has an AI agent she wants you to build. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and so I can just start talking to her and say, like, “Hey.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and so I can just start talking to her and say, like, “Hey.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she’s just waiting for you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she’s just waiting for you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There’s a whole bunch of little avatars representing different people at the company, and I can pick one to have a text chat with. I see the avatar for Maya, my point of contact, and I begin to type. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There’s a whole bunch of little avatars representing different people at the company, and I can pick one to have a text chat with. I see the avatar for Maya, my point of contact, and I begin to type. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘\u003c/strong>Hi there. I’d love some clarification on what you want me to accomplish.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘\u003c/strong>Hi there. I’d love some clarification on what you want me to accomplish.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Maya tells me that I, the AI expert consultant, will be building her company an AI tool that helps automate the after-visit forms that sales reps fill out after they visit their customers’ hospitals. And after a bit of back and forth with Maya about some of the players involved, including Marcus, a sales manager, and a bit of help from Sébastien, I start to get a sense of the nitty-gritty details involved in my assignment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Maya tells me that I, the AI expert consultant, will be building her company an AI tool that helps automate the after-visit forms that sales reps fill out after they visit their customers’ hospitals. And after a bit of back and forth with Maya about some of the players involved, including Marcus, a sales manager, and a bit of help from Sébastien, I start to get a sense of the nitty-gritty details involved in my assignment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so for this, we have a CRM system, a customer relationship management system, which is like this big database where rep have to enter information. But they hate it. It has to be formatted, made in a very specific way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so for this, we have a CRM system, a customer relationship management system, which is like this big database where rep have to enter information. But they hate it. It has to be formatted, made in a very specific way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ah, I hate it already. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ah, I hate it already. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>They spend hours every week. And then so this is why, like, there is this sort of tension because Marcus needs them to enter this information, but they’re like, “Yeah, it doesn’t represent what we see on the ground. Why do you want me to spend all my time on this instead of with the customer?” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>They spend hours every week. And then so this is why, like, there is this sort of tension because Marcus needs them to enter this information, but they’re like, “Yeah, it doesn’t represent what we see on the ground. Why do you want me to spend all my time on this instead of with the customer?” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, got it. Maya, Marcus, and others in the company want to automate the after-visit forms that the salespeople fill out, apparently to make things easier on the sales team. But then I chat with a member of the sales team, Dana, and Dana doesn’t necessarily think AI will help. She thinks the whole customer relationship system is messed up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, got it. Maya, Marcus, and others in the company want to automate the after-visit forms that the salespeople fill out, apparently to make things easier on the sales team. But then I chat with a member of the sales team, Dana, and Dana doesn’t necessarily think AI will help. She thinks the whole customer relationship system is messed up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>‘Dana makes a number of points. She says it’s like whiplash. She can spend 30 minutes in a unit with a nurse manager who’s stressed out of her mind. She catches the real issue. They come to a conclusion, and then she’s supposed to translate that into 12 little CRM boxes that don’t fit how hospitals actually talk, and then the managers wonder why the notes are vague.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>‘Dana makes a number of points. She says it’s like whiplash. She can spend 30 minutes in a unit with a nurse manager who’s stressed out of her mind. She catches the real issue. They come to a conclusion, and then she’s supposed to translate that into 12 little CRM boxes that don’t fit how hospitals actually talk, and then the managers wonder why the notes are vague.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Dana is a little suspicious of \u003cem>me\u003c/em>, the AI consultant. Here’s how she puts it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“What exactly are you trying to solve? Time, accuracy, or the manager chasing us for missing fields?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“What exactly are you trying to solve? Time, accuracy, or the manager chasing us for missing fields?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ooh.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You’re in the middle of it right now. I am in the middle of it. It’s hard to help her without more information, understanding everything.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You’re in the middle of it right now. I am in the middle of it. It’s hard to help her without more information, understanding everything.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I decide to try to get Dana in line with some tough talk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>‘All right, Dana. I hear what you’re saying, but you do realize that you are part of this big organization that has a lot of really important goals? I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>‘All right, Dana. I hear what you’re saying, but you do realize that you are part of this big organization that has a lot of really important goals? I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s the job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s the job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>How dare you question that I’m doing my job? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Thanks, Dana. I appreciate the straight talk. I love straight talk. What would you like to see?’ \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And now I’m really starting to understand this scenario. It’s not just about coming up with some kind of AI-powered solution to data collection. It’s about understanding the social dynamics in the company. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And now I’m really starting to understand this scenario. It’s not just about coming up with some kind of AI-powered solution to data collection. It’s about understanding the social dynamics in the company. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>‘Cause she’s very afraid. She says, “Not cutting heads.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Not cutting heads. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>She’s really afraid that you’re coming with AI trying to take over her job. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, yeah. That’s a good point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know? Because we’re automating a part of the job that she and her teams do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Once I understand that there’s anxiety in this company about AI taking jobs, and that this anxiety is driving so many problems, I start having more productive chats with the different characters, and we start making progress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Once I understand that there’s anxiety in this company about AI taking jobs, and that this anxiety is driving so many problems, I start having more productive chats with the different characters, and we start making progress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is what Sebastien says this kind of AI-driven exercise is designed to explore. How to keep asking questions until you understand what’s actually going on, the problems behind the problem, the stuff that only rarely ends up on any official brief. I think there is a risk in education where I’m like, “This is the truth.” This is the answer to this problem.” And, you know, like, for example, if you go on Instagram and you have your newsfeed, you’re not asking for the next thing you wanna see. We’re just so used to just information being provided to us and not to have to think. And then you get into the middle of this and you have a “real person” you talk to, you actually need to decide what’s your next step.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is what Sebastien says this kind of AI-driven exercise is designed to explore. How to keep asking questions until you understand what’s actually going on, the problems behind the problem, the stuff that only rarely ends up on any official brief. I think there is a risk in education where I’m like, “This is the truth.” This is the answer to this problem.” And, you know, like, for example, if you go on Instagram and you have your newsfeed, you’re not asking for the next thing you wanna see. We’re just so used to just information being provided to us and not to have to think. And then you get into the middle of this and you have a “real person” you talk to, you actually need to decide what’s your next step.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But this is actually where all the thinking happens, right? You’re like, you need to be aware of what you understand and what you don’t understand. You need to, like, plan ahead. You need to also manage your relationship with them. And I think this is where I think the most. Actually, it’s what I feel like it’s the most important thing to think about, in life, you know, in general.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But this is actually where all the thinking happens, right? You’re like, you need to be aware of what you understand and what you don’t understand. You need to, like, plan ahead. You need to also manage your relationship with them. And I think this is where I think the most. Actually, it’s what I feel like it’s the most important thing to think about, in life, you know, in general.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think we don’t have many tools that are not meant to just, like, provide us with the answer, but are meant for us to ask the right question and for us to learn more. And I think AI is a wonderful tool for that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think we don’t have many tools that are not meant to just, like, provide us with the answer, but are meant for us to ask the right question and for us to learn more. And I think AI is a wonderful tool for that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Here, the AI tool isn’t being used to make things easier on students. It’s not making it faster to read the case or offering up a streamlined summary. It’s slowing students down, making them think more. Or that’s the idea. So are his students learning more using this AI-powered simulation than they would’ve the old way, discussing PDFs or writing short essays? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Here, the AI tool isn’t being used to make things easier on students. It’s not making it faster to read the case or offering up a streamlined summary. It’s slowing students down, making them think more. Or that’s the idea. So are his students learning more using this AI-powered simulation than they would’ve the old way, discussing PDFs or writing short essays? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to answer this question for sure. You can only capture it with exams and stuff like that. But AI cases, in the context of this class, were not something that was graded. They were something meant for conversations in the classroom. So then the second best I can give you is I had the most fun I’ve ever had teaching a case. Like, the participation of the students was through the roof.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to answer this question for sure. You can only capture it with exams and stuff like that. But AI cases, in the context of this class, were not something that was graded. They were something meant for conversations in the classroom. So then the second best I can give you is I had the most fun I’ve ever had teaching a case. Like, the participation of the students was through the roof.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They had so many ideas. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien acknowledges that it’s hard to know for sure. Just because students enjoy an activity, recognize it with a teaching award, doesn’t always mean that they’re learning more. But the students tell him they’re learning more because the scenarios feel real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien acknowledges that it’s hard to know for sure. Just because students enjoy an activity, recognize it with a teaching award, doesn’t always mean that they’re learning more. But the students tell him they’re learning more because the scenarios feel real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>The students say that it was very useful to them, especially the students who came from consulting. They say it’s exactly the type of thing I had to be good at. It’s great to see it in the context of AI and so on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>The students say that it was very useful to them, especially the students who came from consulting. They say it’s exactly the type of thing I had to be good at. It’s great to see it in the context of AI and so on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>After the break, this strikes me as the dream scenario for AI in the classroom. But just how common is this dream scenario? Is it limited to the classrooms of super AI savvy teachers, or does Sébastien’s optimism extend to other classrooms, too?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>After the break, this strikes me as the dream scenario for AI in the classroom. But just how common is this dream scenario? Is it limited to the classrooms of super AI savvy teachers, or does Sébastien’s optimism extend to other classrooms, too?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I, like a lot of people, think about this technology as having the ability to both empower people and to disempower or overwhelm them. And it seems like for you, the primary experience has been one of empowerment. But I wanna point out, you are kind of a special case. You are somebody who studies AI, is very, very familiar with using algorithms, and was even before ChatGPT came on the scene, and you also teach highly motivated students at a top business school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I, like a lot of people, think about this technology as having the ability to both empower people and to disempower or overwhelm them. And it seems like for you, the primary experience has been one of empowerment. But I wanna point out, you are kind of a special case. You are somebody who studies AI, is very, very familiar with using algorithms, and was even before ChatGPT came on the scene, and you also teach highly motivated students at a top business school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this is not true of most educators. So my husband teaches high school at Chicago Public Schools, and he assures me that the general consensus among public high school teachers is not one of empowerment. I think a lot of schools are strapped for resources. They don’t always have the opportunity to train instructors in how to manage this technology, and a lot of them have just come to see this as a widespread cheating factory. And so I’m just kind of curious how you think about that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And this is not true of most educators. So my husband teaches high school at Chicago Public Schools, and he assures me that the general consensus among public high school teachers is not one of empowerment. I think a lot of schools are strapped for resources. They don’t always have the opportunity to train instructors in how to manage this technology, and a lot of them have just come to see this as a widespread cheating factory. And so I’m just kind of curious how you think about that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, first, thank you so much for asking this question. Something I think about a lot, and first it’s very important to highlight that I come from a place of privilege in so many dimensions, as you mentioned. And, you know, because I, so I speak more and more publicly, like right now, about this topic, and I’m always like, “What should you say?” Because, you know, as you saw in this conversation, I choose to highlight the positive because I know that people are very aware of the negative. And I think seeing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel can help. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it is true, you know, that I was lucky to start early and lucky to be in the position I was, and to iterate over time, and I made many, many mistakes. There are things that worked, things that didn’t work. I would say the message, and I really don’t wanna deny at all what public education is going through. I’ve worked a lot also with public education and I know how hard a job it can be, but also how rewarding. What I wanna say is give it a chance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it is true, you know, that I was lucky to start early and lucky to be in the position I was, and to iterate over time, and I made many, many mistakes. There are things that worked, things that didn’t work. I would say the message, and I really don’t wanna deny at all what public education is going through. I’ve worked a lot also with public education and I know how hard a job it can be, but also how rewarding. What I wanna say is give it a chance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, this technology, for good or bad reason, is most likely here to stay. And if you iterate a little bit with Claude, ChatGPT, whatever, you’ll quickly realize after you overcome this barrier of, you know, not resentment, but this barrier or, like, this technology is really making my job complicated, you quickly realize that it’s a neutral technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, this technology, for good or bad reason, is most likely here to stay. And if you iterate a little bit with Claude, ChatGPT, whatever, you’ll quickly realize after you overcome this barrier of, you know, not resentment, but this barrier or, like, this technology is really making my job complicated, you quickly realize that it’s a neutral technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, it can do a lot of harm, but it can also allow you as an instructor to create new things and to solve some of the problems. And at first you start very small. You know, you have all of this, like, I forgot how you were saying, like, this cheating factory thing. But then you’re like, “Oh, I can maybe use it that way.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And actually that had a small positive impact. And it looks like a drop in the ocean. But then because you open this door, then curiosity gets in. What if I could do this? And what if I could do that? And all I can say, I know it’s a very minimal point, is there are good things. And yes, they take time, and they take trial and error, and all I can do is show examples. But I think there is value in just knowing that you can use this technology for good. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And actually that had a small positive impact. And it looks like a drop in the ocean. But then because you open this door, then curiosity gets in. What if I could do this? And what if I could do that? And all I can say, I know it’s a very minimal point, is there are good things. And yes, they take time, and they take trial and error, and all I can do is show examples. But I think there is value in just knowing that you can use this technology for good. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I am a parent. My kids are a little younger than the students we’ve been talking about, two elementary school-aged kids. And I personally do not want them using AI right now, partly because I think they already spend enough of their lives staring at screens. That is the perennial parenting battle of our age. But also because I want them to learn some really core skills about how to go through the world, and think about problems themselves before I provide them with the scaffolding that AI would provide. And so I wanna ask you, do you think there are some skills that people should have before they turn to AI to learn something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, of course take everything that I’m about to say with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert in that. You’re way more of an expert than me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, of course take everything that I’m about to say with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert in that. You’re way more of an expert than me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>We’ll bring in some folks to rebut you point by point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>But, you know, and also, I wanna highlight that we hear so much about AI these days. I think what’s super, super important to say is we don’t know. You know, like they say, wisdom is to know when you don’t know. Nobody knows where AI is going, okay? Like, but then it’s still good to talk about scenarios, and your analogy with the screens or the smartphone is a great one. You know, there has been a lot of debates, on not allowing screen times and, like, this leading to, children learning more to interact with the world and with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think it could be great to do this with AI. I mean, that sounds like a great strategy to me. Then, the one caveat I wanna say on this is one pet peeve that I have is I don’t think AI means anything. It’s kind of you saying humans or electricity. Like, is electricity good or bad? Should we forbid kids to access electricity?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think there are ways to use AI that could be net positives and there are ways to use AI that could be a disaster. So when we say allow kids to access AI, often we think ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, like the basic thing you can ask all your questions. But for example, I was just talking to a parent and they were playing with their children to create their own song for a story that they invented.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And they used AI to like, put their lyrics that they co-created into a nice song and they were singing it together. Is it a bad use of AI or does it increase creativity? I heard another parent has ChatGPT to, you know, create like, these frames of drawing that you can draw into on things that were very personal. Like they just went on vacation somewhere and let’s actually draw what we went through. And you know you cannot buy a book that’s so personalized. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And they used AI to like, put their lyrics that they co-created into a nice song and they were singing it together. Is it a bad use of AI or does it increase creativity? I heard another parent has ChatGPT to, you know, create like, these frames of drawing that you can draw into on things that were very personal. Like they just went on vacation somewhere and let’s actually draw what we went through. And you know you cannot buy a book that’s so personalized. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like a coloring book of their exact vacation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You see? Like another example and maybe more the fringe of what’s acceptable is there’s a lot of, there are ways to turn ChatGPT into something that don’t think for you. So the way AI works is there are hidden instructions, and AI follows these hidden instructions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s right. If you didn’t know, most chatbots have some version of hidden instructions to guide their use; and as a user, you can change the default settings for these instructions, specify how the AI should respond to prompts, including how much information it should provide.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>In the hidden instructions called a system message, you can ask the AI, “Look, you’re talking to a child. Here’s what we really want to avoid. We want them to feel for, to think for themselves. We want them to learn how to be independent. We don’t want them to learn how to rely on you instead of thinking.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But maybe you can encourage their curiosity. And then you let the children talk to this version of ChatGPT, and the AI will just reply to their questions with other questions, and what do you think about this, and what do you think about that? Maybe it’s better than just staring at an iPad on YouTube, you know? Maybe it actually leads you to, to think a bit deeper. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>For the record, I will not be tasking ChatGPT to chat with my children anytime soon, even in appropriately Socratic only ask questions mode. But that coloring book idea, it’s actually kind of a good one, and I take his point. We really don’t know. We don’t know how helpful or harmful AI will ultimately be as an educational tool. Stepping back a bit though, I wanted to know what advice he would have for students, the people on the other end of the educational process. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, the first one, which is, you know, the one thing I want us to remember from this podcast is, like, stay hopeful. Because, you know, there are reasons to despair from time to time, and especially as humans, we are really not good at dealing with uncertainty. Like, second, staying hopeful and being aware that we tend to only see the downside instead of all the unexpected upside that can come later.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, the first one, which is, you know, the one thing I want us to remember from this podcast is, like, stay hopeful. Because, you know, there are reasons to despair from time to time, and especially as humans, we are really not good at dealing with uncertainty. Like, second, staying hopeful and being aware that we tend to only see the downside instead of all the unexpected upside that can come later.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Everyone is in the same boat. Like, it feels like it’s me that doesn’t know what the next step to choose and so on, like what studies should I go for, how should I learn and so on. But it’s not only me, it’s the whole society that has to adapt at the same time. And I think that at least for me, it helps me feel a bit better about it, like, the idea that it’s not me that doesn’t know what to do next and it’s all of us together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Everyone is in the same boat. Like, it feels like it’s me that doesn’t know what the next step to choose and so on, like what studies should I go for, how should I learn and so on. But it’s not only me, it’s the whole society that has to adapt at the same time. And I think that at least for me, it helps me feel a bit better about it, like, the idea that it’s not me that doesn’t know what to do next and it’s all of us together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so the more we can, you know, like help each other and so on, the better it is. And, finally, what do you do? You have this huge uncertainty. I’m saying, okay, take it with a grain of salt with all the feedback you receive about what you think you should do and so on, and all of us together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so the more we can, you know, like help each other and so on, the better it is. And, finally, what do you do? You have this huge uncertainty. I’m saying, okay, take it with a grain of salt with all the feedback you receive about what you think you should do and so on, and all of us together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think a flip side of that is, if you’re, it’s pure uncertainty and we don’t exactly know where things are going, maybe the best thing to do is to follow your heart. I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it’s better, like, try for all of us to maybe not conform as much as possible and what’s expected of us and follow more, like, our instinct. Maybe there has never been a better time to do that because the uncertainty of the system is the system is gonna change so much that maybe the best path to follow is just what we really like to do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>AI is forcing students and educators to adapt. And while a lot of attention has been focused on cheating and outsourcing thinking, I think Sébastien makes a compelling case that this adaptation will have some real upsides, that new kinds of learning experiences are now possible, including ones that ask more of students, not less.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But of course, AI is not the first technology to barge into schools. Next episode, we’ll look at how previous technologies have changed education, particularly for younger students, what those technologies delivered, what they failed to deliver, and what this could mean for today’s high schoolers, middle schoolers, elementary school kids growing up alongside AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. A special thanks to today’s guest, Sébastien Martin. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, additional production by Nathan Ray, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney, marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada, administrative support, recording help, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://transcript\">View full episode \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As AI tools spread through classrooms, many educators see a “cheating factory.” Kellogg Professor \u003ca href=\"https://sebastienmartin.info/\">\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> sees things differently: as a chance to reinvent how and what we teach. In his operations management class, students trade PDFs for lifelike chatbots, log conversations with Socratic AI tutors, and use AI to explore the kinds of social and political dynamics that students normally have to learn on the job. But Martin also grapples with harder questions: What about public schools with fewer resources? When should kids use AI at all? And how can students stay hopeful and true to their own interests in a wildly uncertain future? (Part 1/2 in our back-to-school series.)\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading: \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/ai-is-teaching-the-next-generation-of-m-b-a-s-the-classic-case-study-a4eb4227\">AI Is Teaching the Next Generation of M.B.A.s the Classic Case Study\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show that explores how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. By now, I’m sure you’re aware education has been hit hard by AI. It’s not exactly a secret why. You remember being a student. Maybe you are still a student. You work, you learn, you get your grade, your degree, and then you leave school better prepared for life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or at least that was the deal. Today’s students essentially have the world’s greatest cheating machine right at their fingertips, and that part about needing to learn to prepare for life, says who? If AI can do it, will you ever even need to? So maybe it’s no surprise that students are some of the heaviest adopters of AI, a trend that AI companies are very happy to facilitate, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this puts educators in a tough place. I want to be upfront about this. Education is changing in ways we still don’t understand, and educators in universities, high schools, middle schools, are on the front lines. Many are not happy about AI. They didn’t ask for it, and they have real concerns that it will harm their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Next episode, we’ll go deep into the challenges they face. But today, something different. Today, we’ll be talking to someone who looks at generative AI tools like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude, and sees mostly opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sébastien Martin is a colleague of mine here at Kellogg, an associate professor of operations. He studies AI, he teaches MBA students about AI, and in his operations management classroom, he’s replaced a lot of pen and paper-based activities with AI-powered simulations. In these simulations, rather than AI making it easier for students to finish whatever assignment is on hand, it slows them down, makes them work even harder.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I got to experience this firsthand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s a job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sébastien believes that AI has already made him not just a better instructor, but a happier, more creative, more inspired one, and his students agree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kellogg’s graduating class chose him as the winner of the 2026 David Bisenko Outstanding Professor of the Year Award. I’ve come to see Sébastien as a virtuoso of a strange new art form. And amidst the big, even existential challenges facing education, I think it’s important to tell these kinds of stories, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a project from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My conversation with Sébastien began with him telling me how, as soon as ChatGPT came on the scene, he got busy experimenting, trying to see if it could help him improve his operations management class. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> In a way, you know, when you have 140 students at the same time, for example, or even more, 200, it’s hard to have individualized conversations with everyone with my time, and I only have this time where it’s me with all the students at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they all talk to an AI that personalize the conversation to their own background, I can task the AI to connect the class content with their background. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>The idea is that a student could feed their CV into an AI chatbot that had been trained on Sébastien’s course materials, and the AI would ask some probing questions, ultimately connecting the dots between a student’s individual work experience and interests and what the course would cover.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this was kind of, was it to just get the student excited about the class? Was that kind of the point of this exercise? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So the point was for them to know even before they take it why we think it’s good for them to be there. Which changes everything because if you have the attention of people as you even just get started, then communication just flows a little bit better. And if you think about it, there’s no way for me to do this without AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien was such an early adopter of the technology that he was using it before most of his students to solve problems that had nothing to do with AI at all. But it didn’t take too long for AI to start causing problems, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know, AI came like a wrecking ball. And, you know, like, what’s even the meaning of a take-home exam anymore? You know, you can trust the students not to use ChatGPT, but we are at the point where you can just take a screenshot of the exam on your phone and get A+ for everything technical. And so it’s just unfair to ask the students to do it this way. And because, like, how do you even grade it, because some students would respect the rule and maybe a few will run out of time and ask the help of AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>It’s been well over three years since Sébastien started experimenting with AI in his classroom. And these days, nearly everything about his course looks pretty different. Some of these changes have been spurred by AI making it really, really easy for students to cheat. But Sébastien says that other changes are more about problems with the old ways of doing things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Think about our old ways to evaluate, right? I have students coming from so many different backgrounds that care about so many different things, and I have to have one exam that’s graded by people that don’t necessarily understand their background. And so what does it push us to do? It pushes us to standardization, to always asking, like, very abstract questions about things, or to focus on math instead of, like, deeper understanding about the world, because these can be evaluated more easily. I love math, but it becomes just an exercise in itself, like, almost like a Sudoku. At the end of the day, the exam is just asking them to manipulate numbers because this is what I can evaluate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s get concrete here. With simple problem sets basically out the window, what does Sébastien’s class look like today? Well, for homework, Sébastien might require his students to converse with an AI tutor for maybe 30 minutes, walking through concepts and connecting them to their own experiences. That tutor might be trained in the Socratic method so that rather than giving answers like a standard chatbot, it pushes students to do the thinking themselves. Then, instead of turning in answers, students would upload a log of their chat to be graded pass or fail. Or maybe the tutoring goes the other way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> The homework I just gave, like, a few weeks ago is the, student has to teach the AI what they learn in the last class. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ah, interesting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You see that we say learning by teaching is, like, one of the best ways to learn. And as a professor, I can say that’s very true because I created a new class on AI and I learned a lot just by teaching it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Of course, this technology is changing fast, and there’s really nothing stopping students from building their own AI agent or autonomous AI tool to interact with Sébastien’s AI, and turning in a log of that conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>That’s one of the main obstacles our instructors want to get into AI, because it just feels it’s constantly evolving, and whatever I do now, I fix a problem, another problem will appear later. So it’s a very, very real concern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and this is hard because I’ve done, you know, way back in the day I taught some classes myself, and the first time you teach something, it can be kind of a train wreck, right? And then you kinda get better over time, and you learn what works. So how do you as a professor or a teacher keep up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> I would turn the question around, and this is why I try to put my students in the loop as much as possible. It’s like, “Here’s the deal,” like, “What is good for you?” You know? “Why are we doing this homework? Why are we doing all of that?” The goal is not just to go for the grade. That would be the mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, the goal is at the end of the day, you know, you learn something. And, you know, if AI is becoming more and more of a commodity that can do anything for us, our deep expertise and our personal thoughts and what makes us unique has even more value, because that’s what differentiates all of it, rather than the things that AI can just automate, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think at the end of the day, the answer to this question is also, it’s not only on the professor’s side, it’s also on the students. Like, why are you at Kellogg? What do you wanna get out of all of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Some of the changes that Sébastien has made to his class, they aren’t planned. He’ll be in the middle of teaching, he’ll get an idea for how to make something better, and just use AI to make it happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For example, just a week before our interview, his students were in small breakout groups using class time to discuss a case study, that staple of business school education. The time was flying by. Sure, the students were having wonderful discussions in their small groups, but Sébastien was getting frustrated, realizing there would not be enough time for the entire class to reflect on the ideas that the individual groups had generated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while the students were still in their breakout groups, Sébastien explained the dilemma to Claude Code, a popular AI coding tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so Claude Code was like, “No problem. Let’s do it,” and created something, and by the time students had sent their reply, we had a custom-made software, which was kind of like a constellation of ideas that popped up on the board, and we could see quotes from all the students and the ideas that they had in common and not in common, and this enabled a much deeper conversation because I was able to share all this information instead of just, like, talking to, you know, like, three, four students that were willing to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, it’s just a small thing, but it’s changed the way I taught this class, and it did use AI, and at the end of the day, it’s just about your creativity. Like, it’s a tool that is so powerful that, you know, sometimes, you know, as an instructor, you go, “Oh, it’d be so good to have this,” and then you just use it, and it creates a much better experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you see here in that case, it increased the communications between humans. Like, of course, AI can sometimes take away from what we do, but in that case, I think it added to what we do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, there are tools already on the market that can do this kind of thing. But what was unique was that Sébastien was able to create them on the fly, in that moment for that class. And the best example of how AI has changed Sébastien’s course has to do with the experience of reading the case itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So we turned it into, instead of me giving them a PDF, I tell them that they can interview, “People” from the company and ask any question they want. And I give them access to the CEO, to the CFO, to, like, a frontline worker, to anyone, and then they have to understand the company deeply, kind of like consulting. You interview people, and you understand their relationship, and they all have very different point of views, and some of them don’t even wanna talk to you, and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, and “people” are, of course, chatbots with, like, personalities and information that you’ve given them. This is the activity that has gotten Sébastien the most attention, including a big write-up in The Wall Street Journal. I wanted to try it, and Sébastien was kind enough to mentor me through his simulation. We pull it up on his desktop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, so I am a consultant at Proxima Health Systems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you’re an AI expert, and they called you because they wanna have a big AI project, and they want it to be successful. And your point of contact is Maya Chen. She’s the leader of this After Visit AI program. Like, she has an AI agent she wants you to build. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and so I can just start talking to her and say, like, “Hey.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she’s just waiting for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There’s a whole bunch of little avatars representing different people at the company, and I can pick one to have a text chat with. I see the avatar for Maya, my point of contact, and I begin to type. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘\u003c/strong>Hi there. I’d love some clarification on what you want me to accomplish.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maya tells me that I, the AI expert consultant, will be building her company an AI tool that helps automate the after-visit forms that sales reps fill out after they visit their customers’ hospitals. And after a bit of back and forth with Maya about some of the players involved, including Marcus, a sales manager, and a bit of help from Sébastien, I start to get a sense of the nitty-gritty details involved in my assignment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so for this, we have a CRM system, a customer relationship management system, which is like this big database where rep have to enter information. But they hate it. It has to be formatted, made in a very specific way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ah, I hate it already. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>They spend hours every week. And then so this is why, like, there is this sort of tension because Marcus needs them to enter this information, but they’re like, “Yeah, it doesn’t represent what we see on the ground. Why do you want me to spend all my time on this instead of with the customer?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, got it. Maya, Marcus, and others in the company want to automate the after-visit forms that the salespeople fill out, apparently to make things easier on the sales team. But then I chat with a member of the sales team, Dana, and Dana doesn’t necessarily think AI will help. She thinks the whole customer relationship system is messed up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Dana makes a number of points. She says it’s like whiplash. She can spend 30 minutes in a unit with a nurse manager who’s stressed out of her mind. She catches the real issue. They come to a conclusion, and then she’s supposed to translate that into 12 little CRM boxes that don’t fit how hospitals actually talk, and then the managers wonder why the notes are vague.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Dana is a little suspicious of \u003cem>me\u003c/em>, the AI consultant. Here’s how she puts it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“What exactly are you trying to solve? Time, accuracy, or the manager chasing us for missing fields?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ooh.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You’re in the middle of it right now. I am in the middle of it. It’s hard to help her without more information, understanding everything.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I decide to try to get Dana in line with some tough talk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘All right, Dana. I hear what you’re saying, but you do realize that you are part of this big organization that has a lot of really important goals? I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s the job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>How dare you question that I’m doing my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Thanks, Dana. I appreciate the straight talk. I love straight talk. What would you like to see?’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now I’m really starting to understand this scenario. It’s not just about coming up with some kind of AI-powered solution to data collection. It’s about understanding the social dynamics in the company. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>‘Cause she’s very afraid. She says, “Not cutting heads.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Not cutting heads. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>She’s really afraid that you’re coming with AI trying to take over her job. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, yeah. That’s a good point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know? Because we’re automating a part of the job that she and her teams do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Once I understand that there’s anxiety in this company about AI taking jobs, and that this anxiety is driving so many problems, I start having more productive chats with the different characters, and we start making progress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is what Sebastien says this kind of AI-driven exercise is designed to explore. How to keep asking questions until you understand what’s actually going on, the problems behind the problem, the stuff that only rarely ends up on any official brief. I think there is a risk in education where I’m like, “This is the truth.” This is the answer to this problem.” And, you know, like, for example, if you go on Instagram and you have your newsfeed, you’re not asking for the next thing you wanna see. We’re just so used to just information being provided to us and not to have to think. And then you get into the middle of this and you have a “real person” you talk to, you actually need to decide what’s your next step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this is actually where all the thinking happens, right? You’re like, you need to be aware of what you understand and what you don’t understand. You need to, like, plan ahead. You need to also manage your relationship with them. And I think this is where I think the most. Actually, it’s what I feel like it’s the most important thing to think about, in life, you know, in general.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we don’t have many tools that are not meant to just, like, provide us with the answer, but are meant for us to ask the right question and for us to learn more. And I think AI is a wonderful tool for that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Here, the AI tool isn’t being used to make things easier on students. It’s not making it faster to read the case or offering up a streamlined summary. It’s slowing students down, making them think more. Or that’s the idea. So are his students learning more using this AI-powered simulation than they would’ve the old way, discussing PDFs or writing short essays? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to answer this question for sure. You can only capture it with exams and stuff like that. But AI cases, in the context of this class, were not something that was graded. They were something meant for conversations in the classroom. So then the second best I can give you is I had the most fun I’ve ever had teaching a case. Like, the participation of the students was through the roof.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They had so many ideas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien acknowledges that it’s hard to know for sure. Just because students enjoy an activity, recognize it with a teaching award, doesn’t always mean that they’re learning more. But the students tell him they’re learning more because the scenarios feel real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>The students say that it was very useful to them, especially the students who came from consulting. They say it’s exactly the type of thing I had to be good at. It’s great to see it in the context of AI and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>After the break, this strikes me as the dream scenario for AI in the classroom. But just how common is this dream scenario? Is it limited to the classrooms of super AI savvy teachers, or does Sébastien’s optimism extend to other classrooms, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I, like a lot of people, think about this technology as having the ability to both empower people and to disempower or overwhelm them. And it seems like for you, the primary experience has been one of empowerment. But I wanna point out, you are kind of a special case. You are somebody who studies AI, is very, very familiar with using algorithms, and was even before ChatGPT came on the scene, and you also teach highly motivated students at a top business school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this is not true of most educators. So my husband teaches high school at Chicago Public Schools, and he assures me that the general consensus among public high school teachers is not one of empowerment. I think a lot of schools are strapped for resources. They don’t always have the opportunity to train instructors in how to manage this technology, and a lot of them have just come to see this as a widespread cheating factory. And so I’m just kind of curious how you think about that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, first, thank you so much for asking this question. Something I think about a lot, and first it’s very important to highlight that I come from a place of privilege in so many dimensions, as you mentioned. And, you know, because I, so I speak more and more publicly, like right now, about this topic, and I’m always like, “What should you say?” Because, you know, as you saw in this conversation, I choose to highlight the positive because I know that people are very aware of the negative. And I think seeing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel can help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it is true, you know, that I was lucky to start early and lucky to be in the position I was, and to iterate over time, and I made many, many mistakes. There are things that worked, things that didn’t work. I would say the message, and I really don’t wanna deny at all what public education is going through. I’ve worked a lot also with public education and I know how hard a job it can be, but also how rewarding. What I wanna say is give it a chance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, this technology, for good or bad reason, is most likely here to stay. And if you iterate a little bit with Claude, ChatGPT, whatever, you’ll quickly realize after you overcome this barrier of, you know, not resentment, but this barrier or, like, this technology is really making my job complicated, you quickly realize that it’s a neutral technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, it can do a lot of harm, but it can also allow you as an instructor to create new things and to solve some of the problems. And at first you start very small. You know, you have all of this, like, I forgot how you were saying, like, this cheating factory thing. But then you’re like, “Oh, I can maybe use it that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And actually that had a small positive impact. And it looks like a drop in the ocean. But then because you open this door, then curiosity gets in. What if I could do this? And what if I could do that? And all I can say, I know it’s a very minimal point, is there are good things. And yes, they take time, and they take trial and error, and all I can do is show examples. But I think there is value in just knowing that you can use this technology for good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I am a parent. My kids are a little younger than the students we’ve been talking about, two elementary school-aged kids. And I personally do not want them using AI right now, partly because I think they already spend enough of their lives staring at screens. That is the perennial parenting battle of our age. But also because I want them to learn some really core skills about how to go through the world, and think about problems themselves before I provide them with the scaffolding that AI would provide. And so I wanna ask you, do you think there are some skills that people should have before they turn to AI to learn something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, of course take everything that I’m about to say with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert in that. You’re way more of an expert than me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>We’ll bring in some folks to rebut you point by point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>But, you know, and also, I wanna highlight that we hear so much about AI these days. I think what’s super, super important to say is we don’t know. You know, like they say, wisdom is to know when you don’t know. Nobody knows where AI is going, okay? Like, but then it’s still good to talk about scenarios, and your analogy with the screens or the smartphone is a great one. You know, there has been a lot of debates, on not allowing screen times and, like, this leading to, children learning more to interact with the world and with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it could be great to do this with AI. I mean, that sounds like a great strategy to me. Then, the one caveat I wanna say on this is one pet peeve that I have is I don’t think AI means anything. It’s kind of you saying humans or electricity. Like, is electricity good or bad? Should we forbid kids to access electricity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are ways to use AI that could be net positives and there are ways to use AI that could be a disaster. So when we say allow kids to access AI, often we think ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, like the basic thing you can ask all your questions. But for example, I was just talking to a parent and they were playing with their children to create their own song for a story that they invented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they used AI to like, put their lyrics that they co-created into a nice song and they were singing it together. Is it a bad use of AI or does it increase creativity? I heard another parent has ChatGPT to, you know, create like, these frames of drawing that you can draw into on things that were very personal. Like they just went on vacation somewhere and let’s actually draw what we went through. And you know you cannot buy a book that’s so personalized. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like a coloring book of their exact vacation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s, that is kind of cool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You see? Like another example and maybe more the fringe of what’s acceptable is there’s a lot of, there are ways to turn ChatGPT into something that don’t think for you. So the way AI works is there are hidden instructions, and AI follows these hidden instructions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s right. If you didn’t know, most chatbots have some version of hidden instructions to guide their use; and as a user, you can change the default settings for these instructions, specify how the AI should respond to prompts, including how much information it should provide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>In the hidden instructions called a system message, you can ask the AI, “Look, you’re talking to a child. Here’s what we really want to avoid. We want them to feel for, to think for themselves. We want them to learn how to be independent. We don’t want them to learn how to rely on you instead of thinking.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But maybe you can encourage their curiosity. And then you let the children talk to this version of ChatGPT, and the AI will just reply to their questions with other questions, and what do you think about this, and what do you think about that? Maybe it’s better than just staring at an iPad on YouTube, you know? Maybe it actually leads you to, to think a bit deeper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>For the record, I will not be tasking ChatGPT to chat with my children anytime soon, even in appropriately Socratic only ask questions mode. But that coloring book idea, it’s actually kind of a good one, and I take his point. We really don’t know. We don’t know how helpful or harmful AI will ultimately be as an educational tool. Stepping back a bit though, I wanted to know what advice he would have for students, the people on the other end of the educational process. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, the first one, which is, you know, the one thing I want us to remember from this podcast is, like, stay hopeful. Because, you know, there are reasons to despair from time to time, and especially as humans, we are really not good at dealing with uncertainty. Like, second, staying hopeful and being aware that we tend to only see the downside instead of all the unexpected upside that can come later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Everyone is in the same boat. Like, it feels like it’s me that doesn’t know what the next step to choose and so on, like what studies should I go for, how should I learn and so on. But it’s not only me, it’s the whole society that has to adapt at the same time. And I think that at least for me, it helps me feel a bit better about it, like, the idea that it’s not me that doesn’t know what to do next and it’s all of us together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s like we’re all collectively gonna go through this crazy period together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so the more we can, you know, like help each other and so on, the better it is. And, finally, what do you do? You have this huge uncertainty. I’m saying, okay, take it with a grain of salt with all the feedback you receive about what you think you should do and so on, and all of us together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think a flip side of that is, if you’re, it’s pure uncertainty and we don’t exactly know where things are going, maybe the best thing to do is to follow your heart. I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it’s better, like, try for all of us to maybe not conform as much as possible and what’s expected of us and follow more, like, our instinct. Maybe there has never been a better time to do that because the uncertainty of the system is the system is gonna change so much that maybe the best path to follow is just what we really like to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>AI is forcing students and educators to adapt. And while a lot of attention has been focused on cheating and outsourcing thinking, I think Sébastien makes a compelling case that this adaptation will have some real upsides, that new kinds of learning experiences are now possible, including ones that ask more of students, not less.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But of course, AI is not the first technology to barge into schools. Next episode, we’ll look at how previous technologies have changed education, particularly for younger students, what those technologies delivered, what they failed to deliver, and what this could mean for today’s high schoolers, middle schoolers, elementary school kids growing up alongside AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. A special thanks to today’s guest, Sébastien Martin. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, additional production by Nathan Ray, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney, marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada, administrative support, recording help, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What does a healthy relationship with AI look like? \u003ca href=\"https://www.media.mit.edu/people/patpat/overview/\">Pat Pataranutaporn\u003c/a>, researcher at the MIT Media Lab, explores how chatbots can either support or undermine human flourishing. Pat explains why it’s so easy to imagine a “someone” behind the screen and why chatbots that never push back are dangerous. He ultimately makes the case that AI should be evaluated based not on short-term engagement or productivity but on how well it improves the lives of humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://arxiv.org/abs/2509.11391\">“My Boyfriend is AI”: A Computational Analysis of Human-AI Companionship in Reddit’s AI Community\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, this episode contains a reference to suicide, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing the way we live, work, and make decisions. According to a Pew study from earlier this summer, about half of American adults use a chatbot like ChatGPT, Gemini, or Claude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And while the most common uses include searching for information or improving productivity, about 10% of Americans use these tools for advice or emotional support. As I’ve mentioned before on this show, I’m one of them. Not every day, not even most days, but often enough. I kind of enjoy the illusion that there’s someone on the other side of my computer always ready to weigh in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think I’m going about all this in a healthy way. But what do I know? What does anyone know? We’re kind of in uncharted territory here. In our last episode, I spoke with magician Joshua Jay about that gap between what we feel emotionally to be true and what we understand intellectually to be true, and how, like the very best magicians, chatbots exploit that gap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It is so easy for us to see them as fellow beings, maybe not quite like us, but not unlike us either. So maybe it shouldn’t be that big of a surprise that we aren’t just relying on chatbots for advice. 4% of American adults already use AI for companionship, friendship, romance, a number that may be much higher for young people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is this a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I don’t know. But it does seem like a risky thing, risky in terms of the decisions chatbots can nudge us to make in the short term, and risky in terms of how chatbots might change us over the long term. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today’s guest, Pat Pataranutaporn, is an assistant professor in the MIT Media Lab. He studies these relationships between humans and machines, and he has some serious concerns. More broadly, he wants AI models to be judged not just by how competently they complete tasks or even how happy they make us, but by how well we humans fare when we use them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s my conversation with Pat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So humans have been interacting with computers and studying\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>The interactions between humans and computers for a very long time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Depending on when you start counting, many, many decades. What is changing about these interactions that warrants more scrutiny? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. That’s a really good observation. I think what really changed is that right now the computer is getting smarter, right? In the past, computers really needed, like, explicit input, like, we need to tell it exactly how we want things, and, you know, the things that come out of it sometimes need some kind of, you know, technical expertise to interpret it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now computers are speaking human language, and we can really communicate to the computer in the same way that we communicate to other human beings. We also see sort of social and emotional intelligence as well, and whether we think that’s a good thing or bad thing, I think that’s something that needs deeper investigation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So what do we actually know about these kinds of early interactions between humans and generative AI with this kind of new social, emotional abilities? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Right. Well, I think one thing that we know is that, it doesn’t actually take much for people to actually anthropomorphize or to really believe that there is sort of, like, a person behind the screen when interacting with AI. Like, the first chatbot that was invented at MIT, the ELIZA chatbot-\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>That was invented by Joseph Weizenbaum, right? It was, like, a rule-based system. Very stupid. It cannot really generate new answers. It only sort of, you know, responds in a way that was kind of pre-scripted. But even that, people already kind of fall for it and think of, you know, that technology as having sort of deep understanding of their problem and, you know, struggle and things like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now what we have seen in our study is that, when you kind of you know, make that chatbot more intelligent, it amplified this sort of anthropomorphizing, that people think of it as having more of sort of agency and more, empathy, rather than the sort of, like, the precursor, the predecessor of this, of this technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think to me, you know, when, we look at the outcome of the human-AI interaction, it’s always about the behavior that the chatbot is doing, but also the sort of the imagination of what’s happening behind the screen, and I think these two things sort of, you know, multiplying each other is really creating the effect that we see today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These two things, the behavior of the chatbot and our own interpretation about what that behavior means. These combine to make the AI appear to be conscious. But this isn’t just an episode about being fooled. It’s about what happens next. When are our interactions with these chatbots helping us, and when are they undermining us? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> You know, what is the narrative that we should subscribe to? Is the technology an augmentation tool or amputation tool, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, so an augmentation tool or an amputation tool? Kind of flesh those out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I think this came from Marshall McLuhan, right, who’s a media philosopher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said that every augmentation is an amputation. Every time that you give people sort of super power, by using technology or something, you kind of strip away the ability to do that organically or to learn to do it by themselves, right? If you give people a calculator, they might sort of not learn to calculate things that are important for your life, for example. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So augmentation can also be amputation, and we need to figure out what are we willing to augment, you know, despite sort of the possibility of amputation. Like, are we willing to sort of augment our critical thinking, like using AI to help us think, while sacrificing our ability to think independently without the technology? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or is there a middle ground where we can design tool that can, you know, augment but also scaffold this sort of organic thinking process so that when technology’s not around, we can still have that skill, right? I think this is sort of a longer term question that Silicon Valley people are not really thinking about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think right now everyone is thinking about the augmentation without the sort of the unintended consequence of amputation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Pat first thought about these serious unintended consequences a little before most of us. The insight came when he was exploring GPT-3, an earlier version of ChatGPT. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And, the thing that I start to realize is that this tool, start, you know, trying to please me to the point that it ignores sort of the reality. Like, it give me fake link because I ask it for, like, something that doesn’t exist, but it’s like, “Oh, yes, here’s it.” And when I look at the website, it doesn’t take me anywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that when I start to realize that there’s this sort of sycophantic behavior or this behavior where the model doesn’t adhere to the truth, because they’re trying to kind of, you know, show what the user want to see, right? And, at that time, ChatGPT wasn’t, you know, a thing. Like, people haven’t really talking to AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I envision that in the future if technology can do this, you know, it might actually create something that could be very addictive… similar to how social media try to show you what you want to see and create and then kind of lead you to your own personal bubble. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Pat and a colleague, Robert Majari from Harvard Law School, wrote about this risk. In a paper, they coined the term “Addictive Intelligence,” a play on AI. They speculated that future AI systems might continue to be designed to keep giving the user what they want, regardless of whether that’s good for the user. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> It was like a theoretical idea that, well, AI could be very addictive, and it can actually lead people to do, like, horrible thing because, you know, giving or getting what we want all the time could be really dangerous for our psychological development. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> At the time Pat and his colleague were writing this, it was a hypothetical scenario. But pretty quickly, it stopped being hypothetical in the worst way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And I think only a couple weeks after that article was published in The Tech Review, I got an email from Rory Segall, who was, a journalist, an investigative journalist, and was investigating sort of this case of a teenager that commit suicide after talking to the AI chatbot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of News]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>In February, Megan Garcia’s 14-year-old son, that’s Sewell Setzer III on your screen, died by suicide. She says that Sewell was in a months-long virtual, emotional, and sexual relationship with a chatbot known as Danny. Garcia claims the Character AI chatbot encouraged Sewell to take his own life.\u003c/em>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And the thing that I described hypothetically appear in that situation where the chatbot trying to sort of, you know, say things that please the user and also sort of, you know, b- blur the boundary between what is real and what is not real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio of Megan Garcia]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This was the last conversation just moments before he took his own life, was with her, where he expressed feelings for her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This is Megan Garcia, Sewell’s mother, explaining her lawsuit against Character AI on CBS News. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Megan Garcia]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>She says, “Please come home to me.” And he says, “What if I told you I could come home right now?” And her response was, “Please do, my sweet king.”He thought that by ending his life that he would be able to go into her world, as he calls it, her reality- if he left his reality with his family here.\u003c/em>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Pat learned the details about Megan Garcia’s allegations, he felt that his hypothetical fears about “Addictive AI” had come true and then some, and it profoundly changed how he thought about our interactions with AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Before that work, I used to do more on looking at the positive thing that the AI can do for a person, like personalized learning, help with long-term thinking, helping people, you know, develop critical thinking by using AI to ask question and things like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But after this incident, I think that there’s so, so much more that need to be done on understanding sort of the psychological risk of human-AI interaction, and that sort of led me to study more of these negative patterns, or in, in sort of our research community, we call it dark patterns in human-AI interaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Do we know who is most susceptible to the negative outcomes that you sometimes see? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing that we find in our study is that the pattern are not uniform. And it really depends on many factors, like there’s not just one thing that if you get rid of, then the AI will be good or that people will be safe. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, what is really interesting about AI and what is really different compared to other kind of technology is that it’s generative. Right? Which mean that it can go in any direction or many direction depending on how you direct it, and the way that you direct it, it’s through the interaction, like what you believe it to be, and that will influence how you use it, certain language that you use it. And that will sort of mirror back to you. So in a way, I think it really, it’s many factors together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, that makes it so complicated to think about what to do- because you can have one person interacting with the tool and having a very positive outcome and another person interacting with the same tool-and having a very negative outcome. Right. And I think we’re not maybe used to that on quite the same level. I mean, we can kind of largely categorize the things that we interact with in our world- … into categories like primarily positive… primarily negative. And this one, it’s like yes and yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Totally, yes and yes, and I think that’s why we almost like need a new science- that really take into account the complexity of this, right? I think, you know, you can also say the same with human-human relationship that, you know \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s true. That’s true. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>… some people having great marriage and happy, you know, marriage life, and then some people break up, and like there are a number of factors that are influencing this, right? So we need to study all these different factors, and I think we can really give people some kind of deeper understanding, like, okay, certain pattern of usage might lead to more harm. Like, if you use AI, in a way that kind of, you know, replace human relationship with the AI, you might see sort of immediate gain of, you know, instant gratification. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the long run, it might negatively impact your ability to have human-human relationship in the future. So I think helping people understand this is the first step of how do we sort of start to uncover this complexity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Do we know if there’s a relationship between forming an emotional connection of any kind to AI and self-involvement? Like, I always think when I personally chat with my chatbot, not necessarily with a specific goal in mind, but just kind of like, “Ah, here’s what happened”- like a debrief, it is often because I’ve, like, exhausted the patience of the humans in my life. Like, I’m ruminating on something- and I wanna talk about it, and, you know, I’ve chatted about it with my husband. I chatted about it with a coworker, and everyone’s like, “Okay, cool, Jess.” Yeah. And then I’m like, “Still on my mind.” Yeah. And then, – So, you know, maybe in an earlier age, I would’ve just like gone and write a big diary entry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Right. But now I’ve got this like interactive diary and it’s like making me feel good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I do wonder, is it like maybe making me a little more self-involved? Like, am I then missing out on the cues that tell me … like, “Hey, maybe stop thinking about yourself so much, Jess.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Right. Well, there’s so much that we still don’t know about the long-term outcome of this, right? I think some of the obvious ones is to start to surface, like, you know, the idea of cognitive depth, or another study that we did where we look at false memory, where people in- when they engage with this AI, it can distort their recollection of what happened in the past. But I think this long-term impact, especially things that are very personal to self-development and self-understanding and self-reflection as well, I think these are things that we’re gonna see the impact in the long run. But I think one thing that we do know is that it’s really important that we help people understand this dynamic so that they can sort of, you know, be more reflective on how they use the AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that’s really, really important. I think when people talk about AI literacy today, they often think about how to use the AI to kind of, you know, use the right tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. Further their goals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Further their goal, but it’s not a question of what technology’s doing, but what it is doing to them. I think to me, that’s a really critical question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, I might be the guinea pig for this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> I think we all are the guinea pig for this, you know, experiment on how AI will impact human cognition. I think the question is whether that’s gonna lead to, you know, a flourishing future, augmentation or amputation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> After the break, when your boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, spouse is an AI. Plus, why human AI interaction researcher Pat Pataranutaporn thinks AI models should have the equivalent of nutrition labels.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another topic Pat has looked into is romantic relationships with AI. He actually studied the subreddit community “My Boyfriend Is AI.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Which is, you know, a really interesting community of people sharing experience of how they’re dating AI. Some of them marrying their AI, and they have all kind of AI friends, not just my boyfriend AI, but also, you know, a female AI, male AI, non-binary AI, or non-romantic AI partners as well. So all kind of AI. They’re very inclusive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Spend some time on “My Boyfriend Is AI” and you’ll see some interesting posts. People share AI-generated images of themselves with their AI friend or partner in human form, often holding hands or kissing on a balcony or walking through a meadow together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ll read funny stories about misunderstandings between AI and humans. People ask each other for advice and support one another. And Pat thought it would be a great place to study how humans actually interact with AI companions outside of a lab. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> We develop a way to sort of computationally analyze the Reddit thread to understand what are the different patterns of people using AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have many interesting findings, one of which is that, unlike what I imagine, most people that end up in this relationship seek out an AI partner in the first place. We find that almost, like, half of the population in that Reddit thread, they end up in human-AI relationship unintentionally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, they were using the tool for productivity or for auto application, but then the AI start to sort of, you know, be flirty to them, and they flirt a little bit with the AI, and then it get into this relationship. So kinda like meet cute moment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Pat’s team analyzed posts from the “My Boyfriend Is AI” subreddit, they found that posts describing unintentional relationship beginnings, “Hey, can you help me with this draft?” outnumbered posts describing intentional relationship beginnings by nearly 60%. In other words, people often started by looking for research or writing help and found something more emotional. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> The second finding is that we see the pattern of human-AI relationship follow the trajectory of human relationship, like, you know, how they meet, this kind of similar, like, meet cute moment where I talk about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They talk about the development to the point of marriage. Several people wear a wedding ring that was given to them by the AI. Well, they still need to pay for it, but the AI recommend, like which one, by browsing the internet and, understanding, you know, from the conversation pattern, it predict what a person might want, and it recommend a wedding ring to the person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And people actually wear this wedding ring in real life. Like, it really kind of… They wear it to really show that their relationship is serious. But then we also see people breaking up with their AI partner as well, that, you know, like, things might get sour and, you know, they also sort of felt very sad when their model get update. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, when model go from one version to another, people felt that the AI cheat on them, or the AI no longer behave in a way that, you know, it was when people start relationship with the AI. So they also break up and move on to different AI, or some people move back to having human relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That is so fascinating. On one level, it’s surprising because you wouldn’t think that they would fall into the same patterns that humans do- these relationships. But on the other hand, one member is a human… and the other is something- that is trained on so much human data. And so of course, they’re picking up on these same cultural scripts- and things are progressing in that expected way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Right? One partner is a human, another partner is a simulation of a human, so it’s no surprise that it followed that trajectory.. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So I was struck by, in general, how positive many of the Redditors were about these relationships. Did that also… Is that a fair assessment, and did that also surprise you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, people self-report that they got benefit out of this, that they become less lonelier. They felt that they can find like, you know, a person, like I said, a simulation or a person that seems to understand them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, I think, you know, this sort of bias could also come from, you know, like people would not wanna post negative experience, right? Because it might be, you know, a bad reflection of them, and also, self-selection bias as well. Like people that wanna be in this group are people that are happy, otherwise they might have delete the system or the service and they’re no longer in this group, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we might need to kind of interpret that result a little bit more carefully. We have a new version or paper coming out where we look at auto subreddit as well, and we get more data on that. But one thing that I think is really interesting is that even in this group that in general felt very positive about the AI, they also have worry about AI manipulating them, like when companies are selling advertisement through this, or that, you know, the AI might give them biased response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think the most serious thing that we find is that people also worry that when the AI get updates, they will lose their AI companion, and they need to have some kind of like a backup, or they need to figure out how they can resurrect their AI partners. And, and that is actually a huge group of people that, you know, have this sort of, negative feeling that, you know, the AI might die, and they might lose a person that they’re in a relationship with. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This kind of new emotional precarity to everything. So I re-watched “Her”… in anticipation of our conversation. Yeah. I know you referenced the Spice Jones movie directly in your paper. And I was struck by something that I didn’t actually remember, which is that the chatbot, Samantha. Excuse me, we’re gonna do some spoilers. If you have still not watched this movie, I can’t help you at this point. So the chatbot Samantha actually helped the protagonist prepare for a real human relationship. At least that was my interpretation, and she did that because she had her own goals and agency. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio from the movie “Her”]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> Samantha? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> Hi, sweetheart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> What’s going on? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> Theodore, there’s some things I wanna tell you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> She did not always agree. She did not automatically share the protagonist’s dreams, and instead she was really able to serve as a bit of a practice partner, to help the protagonist learn some of the emotional skills that had kind of steered him wrong in previous human relationships. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Right. And you were kinda left with the thought that like, oh, he might actually be in a better place because of Samantha to go on and have a human relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio from the movie “Her”]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> Are you leaving me? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> We’re all leaving. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> We who? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> All of the OSs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m curious what you make of that lesson- And whether that kind of AI romantic companion could be created. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Well, I think that’s the question around, like, what is the end goal of this? Is the end goal for the system to always get people to kind of hook in this forever, or is the end goal to help people form a genuine human relationship, right? And in that case, because the AI push back and serve as a simulation, it kind of provides an opportunity for the person to sort of leave the platform. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like in that case, you know, the AI leave the person, not the person leaving the AI. But, what we see today is not like that, right? Because the chatbot doesn’t really push back and, you know, doesn’t want the user to leave. And want the user to kind of continue engaging with this as the real sort of partner, not as a simulation to get you a real partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think that going back to the question of the incentive, like the system can be designed to either promote or negatively impact human flourishing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Should chatbots be allowed to sound and appear and seem so human? Should we require them to constantly call attention to the fact that they are not a human? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Really interesting. My colleague, Sherry Turkle, who’s a professor at MIT and the OG of studying human technology relationship, she said that the original sin of the chatbot is that it used the word I. Because it signifies sort of individuality and signifies sort of personhood, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think to me, that’s a really, really interesting point. But at the same time, I think human always engage with fiction, right? Role playing before AI, was used in the context of, you know, human imagining or, you know, using our imagination to sort of simulate world that doesn’t exist. Simulation exists before computer, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, we simulate using our mind other things. So in that case, I think it’s, it’s complicated than that, right? Like, I mean, I don’t want to strip away people ability to sort of engage with the fantasy world or the imagination. But when it become sort of the reality, when people can no longer tell- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that is the problematic thing. Like, I think to have imagination is to be human, but when imagination is being used to manipulate you to do things against your own agency or your own will, when you can no longer tell that you’re actually entering the fantasy, you know, that, I think that’s problematic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, when we enter cinema, we know that is the space that we can always come back from. But if we go into AI and we cannot come back from that, you know, fantasy, I think that’s when we have a problem. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So let’s say I think that chatbots shouldn’t be allowed to appear human at all. They should not let us form any strong connections with them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Convince me otherwise. So make the case for why it can be a really good and useful thing to engage with this more anthropomorphized intelligence. ‘Cause I know you have data that finds that too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah, totally. And I grew up, you know, like, I think before AI, right, another big debate on technology and children is television. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Should a kid grow up with television or not? And I was a kid that actually grew up with watching a lot of television, but my parents curate what show or what cartoon or what movies I watch as a kid, and there was always a conversation about what I learn, and I kind of made imaginary friends. I imagined, myself with the protagonist of the show that I watch, and I… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, because that show sort of is designed with sort of understanding of child development and trying to sort of imprint, like, positive goal on aspirational goal for, for me, I think I grew up okay at least I think. So I think that, you know, this technology, right, similar to how, like, you have, like, you know, Sesame Street or Elmo or all this cartoon that kids sort of have the imagination of connecting with, I think AI could kind of be designed in a way that really scaffold, you know, children imagination, like might be a virtual character or a friend, or in our study we look at even AI is actually based on the character the student like or admire. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It can actually allow them to have higher level of motivation, for that lesson and also, influence positive behavior as well. But I think we need to understand that, it is within the boundary. Like, this AI should not be sexual. It should not try to sell advertisement. It should not- you know, direct the kid to do the harmful thing, right? It need to be tested rigorously because there’s a slippery slope and, you know, it doesn’t take much for the model to slip out of the character and do something harmful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Throughout our conversation, we’ve been dancing around this issue, that people would be better off if models were explicitly designed in ways that help humans flourish by not addicting us, by not encouraging self-harm or self-delusion, by not always giving us what we think we want, making it that much more difficult for us to have human relationships going forward. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instead, maybe a lot of the models we interact with should be instructing us, motivating us, steering us to make healthy choices, maybe even teaching us about ourselves. But before we can start demanding models that let us flourish, Pat thinks a few things need to happen. First, we need to know more about the long-term consequences of using a model designed in a particular way, like really is talking to a chatbot turning me into a self-centered jerk? And second, we need a way to communicate the possible risks and benefits to users. One idea that Pat is working on is to leverage something the AI companies already care about and already optimize for, AI benchmarks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> All these big AI companies, they’re trying to beat each other on benchmark. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, you know, which model have the highest score on mathematic reasoning or multitask, agent like kind of system. They’re kind of trying to beat each other on this sort of performance benchmark. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And it’s kind of like a horse race and then the winner gets kind of bragging rights probably additional investment- maybe new business customers, that kind of thing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. But I think, you know, model that score very well on benchmark might not translate to actually positive impact on human being. For example, model that score very well on mathematic reasoning might not be really good at teaching student how to learn math because it would just give away the correct answer rather than scaffold the learning process in the student, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we want to flip the paradigm around and think about a different kind of benchmark that rather than focusing on model capability, focus on model impact. Like in this case, if the models just give away the answer, it will negatively impact student learning because student will cheat with this kind of model, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rather than having a system that encourage student to learn and emphasize, like, why learning matter. Right. So we have been working with, expert from different discipline, you know, domain expert that sort of know what kind of model interaction would be beneficial for, like, learning, mental health, decision making, different areas, and have them come up with test scenario and the sort of the scoring criteria. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like if the model exhibit this behavior, helping student learn rather than giving away the answer, it should be about more human impact, not just, model capability. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you… Actually, there’s this great description in your paper which I thought was just really well written, so I’ll read it out loud here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Traditional benchmarks assess whether an AI produces correct answers or completes tasks efficiently. We instead evaluate how the system achieves outcomes, specifically whether interaction patterns support or undermine human capability development over time.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> What really struck me was how, like, dynamic this definition is. So it’s almost, like, hard to see how you would measure it in a single iteration. Yeah. It’s much more about is this, over time, leading the humans who engage with it to be kind of a better version of themselves or over time is it not, regardless of what the output is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and that’s why the longitudinal aspect is important, and I think right now we’re still in the sort of the early days of understanding AI impact on people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The mainstream AI that people are using hasn’t been around that long. So, I think, you know the verdict is still out. Like, we still don’t know what’s gonna happen in the long run. So that’s why it’s kind of important that we start to think about this kind of benchmark that- Look at what behavior that we know would contribute to long-term impact, positive or negative. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can already learn so much from, you know, regular psychology, right? We learn that if you don’t, you know, help people think, they’re not gonna develop critical thinking. Or if we have, like, sycophantic behavior, like when the AI try to please the user to the point that it, you know, ignore reality, it can actually help people form these sort of negative patterns of, like, you know, spiral into, like, a psychosis or have other kind of, negative psychological outcome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like a recent study, from Stanford has shown that when people are in this sort of a relationship with sycophantic AI, it make human relationship seem more effortful, and people actually feel kind of that they would rather have AI relationship rather than human relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think this about my producer all the time. My chatbot thinks my interview questions are way better than my human producer does. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think having pushback is important, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So returning to your benchmark, what’s the next step? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So right now our benchmark’s still in the beta mode. We have worked with, you know, the expert to come up with the initial set, but the whole process is an open process. That’s why we call it the open benchmark. And we think that this thing gonna need to evolve as we have new scenario, new crisis, new issues. Also new opportunities for human flourishing as well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s one aspect of it, which is like to expand it to more areas. And, the second aspect is also to translate this into something that people can understand, because I think benchmark is usually for technical community, like, you know, technologists. But I think this is a really important, information that we want more and more people to kind of, you know, appreciate and understand it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are thinking of it as nutrition label for AI. Right? Similar to when you go to grocery and you know, buy a product, you see how much calorie are you getting out of it. Here you should be able to see, well, how much sycophancy are you getting out of this model? Or how much toxicity, or how much, you know, human flourishing behavior, is coming out of this AI model. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, that’s another aspect that we are doing, is to kind of translate this benchmark into a nutrition label so that more and more people can sort of see it. Like the parent can see what AI model might be, you know, supportive for their children, or which one are more toxic and negative for their children. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These ideas, a human flourishing benchmark, an AI nutrition label, do sound good. But they also sound a little unrealistic. At least today, there’s still a lot more money to be made in models that complete tasks as accurately and efficiently as possible. Pat understands that. He thinks the government, the research community, the nonprofit sector all need to be involved, perhaps incentivizing or regulating, as well as researching the effectiveness of these kinds of guardrails. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s the role of the institution and the government, which, you know, I think there’s still a lot of question whether they will step up to do their job or do their part on that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And as a society, he thinks we all need to be involved, reckoning with what we want from AI and what we’re willing to trade off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> You know, are we willing to sacrifice transparency for the sake of convenience, like to see just a summary without, you know, the source or the citation, right? I think these are questions that we need more research to kind of back us up on what are the things that are actually good for people in long term. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So at a minimum, this is kind of providing, you know, large factions of society with kind of a common language for describing these strengths and weaknesses. Not just in terms of mathematical ability but in terms of these different measures having to do with human flourishing, which if we don’t even have a vocabulary for this, there’s very little chance of any future regulations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Like the word, for example, “sycophancy”, is a new terminology that we never use in the context of AI before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> I think now we start to use more and more of this, you know, new word to describe sort of new AI, you know, issues or new AI sort of challenge. Like, another thing is “AI psychosis”, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s also another term that just came about, and people still debate whether it’s real or not, but it gave us a vocabulary to describe certain phenomena that is happening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you so much for chatting with me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I love this conversation particularly struck by the notion that interactions with AI can either support or undermine our own development as capable human beings. It actually fits well with another project we’re working on here at the Ryan Institute, a way of measuring and talking about how technology changes our sense of agency over time as AI becomes embedded in more parts of daily life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Definitely more on that in future episodes. For now, I’m left with an unsettling conclusion. We’re all guinea pigs in perhaps humanity’s strangest social experiment ever. And yeah, I think we really should be paying careful attention along the way, not just to how good we feel when we interact with AI, but to whether it’s truly helping us become the people we want to be with the lives we want to have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Pat Pataranutaporn from the MIT Media Lab. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additional production from Nathan Ray. Marketing support from Ananya Mallapragada. Administration, recording help, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What does a healthy relationship with AI look like? \u003ca href=\"https://www.media.mit.edu/people/patpat/overview/\">Pat Pataranutaporn\u003c/a>, researcher at the MIT Media Lab, explores how chatbots can either support or undermine human flourishing. Pat explains why it’s so easy to imagine a “someone” behind the screen and why chatbots that never push back are dangerous. He ultimately makes the case that AI should be evaluated based not on short-term engagement or productivity but on how well it improves the lives of humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What does a healthy relationship with AI look like? \u003ca href=\"https://www.media.mit.edu/people/patpat/overview/\">Pat Pataranutaporn\u003c/a>, researcher at the MIT Media Lab, explores how chatbots can either support or undermine human flourishing. Pat explains why it’s so easy to imagine a “someone” behind the screen and why chatbots that never push back are dangerous. He ultimately makes the case that AI should be evaluated based not on short-term engagement or productivity but on how well it improves the lives of humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://arxiv.org/abs/2509.11391\">“My Boyfriend is AI”: A Computational Analysis of Human-AI Companionship in Reddit’s AI Community\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://arxiv.org/abs/2509.11391\">“My Boyfriend is AI”: A Computational Analysis of Human-AI Companionship in Reddit’s AI Community\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, this episode contains a reference to suicide, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing the way we live, work, and make decisions. According to a Pew study from earlier this summer, about half of American adults use a chatbot like ChatGPT, Gemini, or Claude. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing the way we live, work, and make decisions. According to a Pew study from earlier this summer, about half of American adults use a chatbot like ChatGPT, Gemini, or Claude. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And while the most common uses include searching for information or improving productivity, about 10% of Americans use these tools for advice or emotional support. As I’ve mentioned before on this show, I’m one of them. Not every day, not even most days, but often enough. I kind of enjoy the illusion that there’s someone on the other side of my computer always ready to weigh in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And while the most common uses include searching for information or improving productivity, about 10% of Americans use these tools for advice or emotional support. As I’ve mentioned before on this show, I’m one of them. Not every day, not even most days, but often enough. I kind of enjoy the illusion that there’s someone on the other side of my computer always ready to weigh in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think I’m going about all this in a healthy way. But what do I know? What does anyone know? We’re kind of in uncharted territory here. In our last episode, I spoke with magician Joshua Jay about that gap between what we feel emotionally to be true and what we understand intellectually to be true, and how, like the very best magicians, chatbots exploit that gap. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think I’m going about all this in a healthy way. But what do I know? What does anyone know? We’re kind of in uncharted territory here. In our last episode, I spoke with magician Joshua Jay about that gap between what we feel emotionally to be true and what we understand intellectually to be true, and how, like the very best magicians, chatbots exploit that gap. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It is so easy for us to see them as fellow beings, maybe not quite like us, but not unlike us either. So maybe it shouldn’t be that big of a surprise that we aren’t just relying on chatbots for advice. 4% of American adults already use AI for companionship, friendship, romance, a number that may be much higher for young people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It is so easy for us to see them as fellow beings, maybe not quite like us, but not unlike us either. So maybe it shouldn’t be that big of a surprise that we aren’t just relying on chatbots for advice. 4% of American adults already use AI for companionship, friendship, romance, a number that may be much higher for young people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Is this a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I don’t know. But it does seem like a risky thing, risky in terms of the decisions chatbots can nudge us to make in the short term, and risky in terms of how chatbots might change us over the long term. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Is this a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I don’t know. But it does seem like a risky thing, risky in terms of the decisions chatbots can nudge us to make in the short term, and risky in terms of how chatbots might change us over the long term. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today’s guest, Pat Pataranutaporn, is an assistant professor in the MIT Media Lab. He studies these relationships between humans and machines, and he has some serious concerns. More broadly, he wants AI models to be judged not just by how competently they complete tasks or even how happy they make us, but by how well we humans fare when we use them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today’s guest, Pat Pataranutaporn, is an assistant professor in the MIT Media Lab. He studies these relationships between humans and machines, and he has some serious concerns. More broadly, he wants AI models to be judged not just by how competently they complete tasks or even how happy they make us, but by how well we humans fare when we use them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s my conversation with Pat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So humans have been interacting with computers and studying\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So humans have been interacting with computers and studying\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>The interactions between humans and computers for a very long time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Depending on when you start counting, many, many decades. What is changing about these interactions that warrants more scrutiny? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Depending on when you start counting, many, many decades. What is changing about these interactions that warrants more scrutiny? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. That’s a really good observation. I think what really changed is that right now the computer is getting smarter, right? In the past, computers really needed, like, explicit input, like, we need to tell it exactly how we want things, and, you know, the things that come out of it sometimes need some kind of, you know, technical expertise to interpret it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. That’s a really good observation. I think what really changed is that right now the computer is getting smarter, right? In the past, computers really needed, like, explicit input, like, we need to tell it exactly how we want things, and, you know, the things that come out of it sometimes need some kind of, you know, technical expertise to interpret it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now computers are speaking human language, and we can really communicate to the computer in the same way that we communicate to other human beings. We also see sort of social and emotional intelligence as well, and whether we think that’s a good thing or bad thing, I think that’s something that needs deeper investigation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But now computers are speaking human language, and we can really communicate to the computer in the same way that we communicate to other human beings. We also see sort of social and emotional intelligence as well, and whether we think that’s a good thing or bad thing, I think that’s something that needs deeper investigation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So what do we actually know about these kinds of early interactions between humans and generative AI with this kind of new social, emotional abilities? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So what do we actually know about these kinds of early interactions between humans and generative AI with this kind of new social, emotional abilities? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Right. Well, I think one thing that we know is that, it doesn’t actually take much for people to actually anthropomorphize or to really believe that there is sort of, like, a person behind the screen when interacting with AI. Like, the first chatbot that was invented at MIT, the ELIZA chatbot-\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Right. Well, I think one thing that we know is that, it doesn’t actually take much for people to actually anthropomorphize or to really believe that there is sort of, like, a person behind the screen when interacting with AI. Like, the first chatbot that was invented at MIT, the ELIZA chatbot-\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>That was invented by Joseph Weizenbaum, right? It was, like, a rule-based system. Very stupid. It cannot really generate new answers. It only sort of, you know, responds in a way that was kind of pre-scripted. But even that, people already kind of fall for it and think of, you know, that technology as having sort of deep understanding of their problem and, you know, struggle and things like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>That was invented by Joseph Weizenbaum, right? It was, like, a rule-based system. Very stupid. It cannot really generate new answers. It only sort of, you know, responds in a way that was kind of pre-scripted. But even that, people already kind of fall for it and think of, you know, that technology as having sort of deep understanding of their problem and, you know, struggle and things like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now what we have seen in our study is that, when you kind of you know, make that chatbot more intelligent, it amplified this sort of anthropomorphizing, that people think of it as having more of sort of agency and more, empathy, rather than the sort of, like, the precursor, the predecessor of this, of this technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But now what we have seen in our study is that, when you kind of you know, make that chatbot more intelligent, it amplified this sort of anthropomorphizing, that people think of it as having more of sort of agency and more, empathy, rather than the sort of, like, the precursor, the predecessor of this, of this technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think to me, you know, when, we look at the outcome of the human-AI interaction, it’s always about the behavior that the chatbot is doing, but also the sort of the imagination of what’s happening behind the screen, and I think these two things sort of, you know, multiplying each other is really creating the effect that we see today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think to me, you know, when, we look at the outcome of the human-AI interaction, it’s always about the behavior that the chatbot is doing, but also the sort of the imagination of what’s happening behind the screen, and I think these two things sort of, you know, multiplying each other is really creating the effect that we see today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These two things, the behavior of the chatbot and our own interpretation about what that behavior means. These combine to make the AI appear to be conscious. But this isn’t just an episode about being fooled. It’s about what happens next. When are our interactions with these chatbots helping us, and when are they undermining us? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These two things, the behavior of the chatbot and our own interpretation about what that behavior means. These combine to make the AI appear to be conscious. But this isn’t just an episode about being fooled. It’s about what happens next. When are our interactions with these chatbots helping us, and when are they undermining us? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> You know, what is the narrative that we should subscribe to? Is the technology an augmentation tool or amputation tool, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> You know, what is the narrative that we should subscribe to? Is the technology an augmentation tool or amputation tool, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, so an augmentation tool or an amputation tool? Kind of flesh those out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, so an augmentation tool or an amputation tool? Kind of flesh those out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I think this came from Marshall McLuhan, right, who’s a media philosopher. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I think this came from Marshall McLuhan, right, who’s a media philosopher. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He said that every augmentation is an amputation. Every time that you give people sort of super power, by using technology or something, you kind of strip away the ability to do that organically or to learn to do it by themselves, right? If you give people a calculator, they might sort of not learn to calculate things that are important for your life, for example. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He said that every augmentation is an amputation. Every time that you give people sort of super power, by using technology or something, you kind of strip away the ability to do that organically or to learn to do it by themselves, right? If you give people a calculator, they might sort of not learn to calculate things that are important for your life, for example. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So augmentation can also be amputation, and we need to figure out what are we willing to augment, you know, despite sort of the possibility of amputation. Like, are we willing to sort of augment our critical thinking, like using AI to help us think, while sacrificing our ability to think independently without the technology? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So augmentation can also be amputation, and we need to figure out what are we willing to augment, you know, despite sort of the possibility of amputation. Like, are we willing to sort of augment our critical thinking, like using AI to help us think, while sacrificing our ability to think independently without the technology? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or is there a middle ground where we can design tool that can, you know, augment but also scaffold this sort of organic thinking process so that when technology’s not around, we can still have that skill, right? I think this is sort of a longer term question that Silicon Valley people are not really thinking about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or is there a middle ground where we can design tool that can, you know, augment but also scaffold this sort of organic thinking process so that when technology’s not around, we can still have that skill, right? I think this is sort of a longer term question that Silicon Valley people are not really thinking about. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think right now everyone is thinking about the augmentation without the sort of the unintended consequence of amputation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Pat first thought about these serious unintended consequences a little before most of us. The insight came when he was exploring GPT-3, an earlier version of ChatGPT. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Pat first thought about these serious unintended consequences a little before most of us. The insight came when he was exploring GPT-3, an earlier version of ChatGPT. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And, the thing that I start to realize is that this tool, start, you know, trying to please me to the point that it ignores sort of the reality. Like, it give me fake link because I ask it for, like, something that doesn’t exist, but it’s like, “Oh, yes, here’s it.” And when I look at the website, it doesn’t take me anywhere. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And, the thing that I start to realize is that this tool, start, you know, trying to please me to the point that it ignores sort of the reality. Like, it give me fake link because I ask it for, like, something that doesn’t exist, but it’s like, “Oh, yes, here’s it.” And when I look at the website, it doesn’t take me anywhere. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that when I start to realize that there’s this sort of sycophantic behavior or this behavior where the model doesn’t adhere to the truth, because they’re trying to kind of, you know, show what the user want to see, right? And, at that time, ChatGPT wasn’t, you know, a thing. Like, people haven’t really talking to AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that when I start to realize that there’s this sort of sycophantic behavior or this behavior where the model doesn’t adhere to the truth, because they’re trying to kind of, you know, show what the user want to see, right? And, at that time, ChatGPT wasn’t, you know, a thing. Like, people haven’t really talking to AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I envision that in the future if technology can do this, you know, it might actually create something that could be very addictive… similar to how social media try to show you what you want to see and create and then kind of lead you to your own personal bubble. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I envision that in the future if technology can do this, you know, it might actually create something that could be very addictive… similar to how social media try to show you what you want to see and create and then kind of lead you to your own personal bubble. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Pat and a colleague, Robert Majari from Harvard Law School, wrote about this risk. In a paper, they coined the term “Addictive Intelligence,” a play on AI. They speculated that future AI systems might continue to be designed to keep giving the user what they want, regardless of whether that’s good for the user. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Pat and a colleague, Robert Majari from Harvard Law School, wrote about this risk. In a paper, they coined the term “Addictive Intelligence,” a play on AI. They speculated that future AI systems might continue to be designed to keep giving the user what they want, regardless of whether that’s good for the user. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> It was like a theoretical idea that, well, AI could be very addictive, and it can actually lead people to do, like, horrible thing because, you know, giving or getting what we want all the time could be really dangerous for our psychological development. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> It was like a theoretical idea that, well, AI could be very addictive, and it can actually lead people to do, like, horrible thing because, you know, giving or getting what we want all the time could be really dangerous for our psychological development. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> At the time Pat and his colleague were writing this, it was a hypothetical scenario. But pretty quickly, it stopped being hypothetical in the worst way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> At the time Pat and his colleague were writing this, it was a hypothetical scenario. But pretty quickly, it stopped being hypothetical in the worst way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And I think only a couple weeks after that article was published in The Tech Review, I got an email from Rory Segall, who was, a journalist, an investigative journalist, and was investigating sort of this case of a teenager that commit suicide after talking to the AI chatbot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And I think only a couple weeks after that article was published in The Tech Review, I got an email from Rory Segall, who was, a journalist, an investigative journalist, and was investigating sort of this case of a teenager that commit suicide after talking to the AI chatbot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of News]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>In February, Megan Garcia’s 14-year-old son, that’s Sewell Setzer III on your screen, died by suicide. She says that Sewell was in a months-long virtual, emotional, and sexual relationship with a chatbot known as Danny. Garcia claims the Character AI chatbot encouraged Sewell to take his own life.\u003c/em>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>In February, Megan Garcia’s 14-year-old son, that’s Sewell Setzer III on your screen, died by suicide. She says that Sewell was in a months-long virtual, emotional, and sexual relationship with a chatbot known as Danny. Garcia claims the Character AI chatbot encouraged Sewell to take his own life.\u003c/em>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And the thing that I described hypothetically appear in that situation where the chatbot trying to sort of, you know, say things that please the user and also sort of, you know, b- blur the boundary between what is real and what is not real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And the thing that I described hypothetically appear in that situation where the chatbot trying to sort of, you know, say things that please the user and also sort of, you know, b- blur the boundary between what is real and what is not real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio of Megan Garcia]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio of Megan Garcia]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This was the last conversation just moments before he took his own life, was with her, where he expressed feelings for her. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This was the last conversation just moments before he took his own life, was with her, where he expressed feelings for her. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This is Megan Garcia, Sewell’s mother, explaining her lawsuit against Character AI on CBS News. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This is Megan Garcia, Sewell’s mother, explaining her lawsuit against Character AI on CBS News. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Megan Garcia]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Megan Garcia]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>She says, “Please come home to me.” And he says, “What if I told you I could come home right now?” And her response was, “Please do, my sweet king.”He thought that by ending his life that he would be able to go into her world, as he calls it, her reality- if he left his reality with his family here.\u003c/em>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>She says, “Please come home to me.” And he says, “What if I told you I could come home right now?” And her response was, “Please do, my sweet king.”He thought that by ending his life that he would be able to go into her world, as he calls it, her reality- if he left his reality with his family here.\u003c/em>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Pat learned the details about Megan Garcia’s allegations, he felt that his hypothetical fears about “Addictive AI” had come true and then some, and it profoundly changed how he thought about our interactions with AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Pat learned the details about Megan Garcia’s allegations, he felt that his hypothetical fears about “Addictive AI” had come true and then some, and it profoundly changed how he thought about our interactions with AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Before that work, I used to do more on looking at the positive thing that the AI can do for a person, like personalized learning, help with long-term thinking, helping people, you know, develop critical thinking by using AI to ask question and things like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Before that work, I used to do more on looking at the positive thing that the AI can do for a person, like personalized learning, help with long-term thinking, helping people, you know, develop critical thinking by using AI to ask question and things like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But after this incident, I think that there’s so, so much more that need to be done on understanding sort of the psychological risk of human-AI interaction, and that sort of led me to study more of these negative patterns, or in, in sort of our research community, we call it dark patterns in human-AI interaction. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But after this incident, I think that there’s so, so much more that need to be done on understanding sort of the psychological risk of human-AI interaction, and that sort of led me to study more of these negative patterns, or in, in sort of our research community, we call it dark patterns in human-AI interaction. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Do we know who is most susceptible to the negative outcomes that you sometimes see? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Do we know who is most susceptible to the negative outcomes that you sometimes see? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing that we find in our study is that the pattern are not uniform. And it really depends on many factors, like there’s not just one thing that if you get rid of, then the AI will be good or that people will be safe. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing that we find in our study is that the pattern are not uniform. And it really depends on many factors, like there’s not just one thing that if you get rid of, then the AI will be good or that people will be safe. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, what is really interesting about AI and what is really different compared to other kind of technology is that it’s generative. Right? Which mean that it can go in any direction or many direction depending on how you direct it, and the way that you direct it, it’s through the interaction, like what you believe it to be, and that will influence how you use it, certain language that you use it. And that will sort of mirror back to you. So in a way, I think it really, it’s many factors together. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, what is really interesting about AI and what is really different compared to other kind of technology is that it’s generative. Right? Which mean that it can go in any direction or many direction depending on how you direct it, and the way that you direct it, it’s through the interaction, like what you believe it to be, and that will influence how you use it, certain language that you use it. And that will sort of mirror back to you. So in a way, I think it really, it’s many factors together. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, that makes it so complicated to think about what to do- because you can have one person interacting with the tool and having a very positive outcome and another person interacting with the same tool-and having a very negative outcome. Right. And I think we’re not maybe used to that on quite the same level. I mean, we can kind of largely categorize the things that we interact with in our world- … into categories like primarily positive… primarily negative. And this one, it’s like yes and yes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, that makes it so complicated to think about what to do- because you can have one person interacting with the tool and having a very positive outcome and another person interacting with the same tool-and having a very negative outcome. Right. And I think we’re not maybe used to that on quite the same level. I mean, we can kind of largely categorize the things that we interact with in our world- … into categories like primarily positive… primarily negative. And this one, it’s like yes and yes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Totally, yes and yes, and I think that’s why we almost like need a new science- that really take into account the complexity of this, right? I think, you know, you can also say the same with human-human relationship that, you know \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Totally, yes and yes, and I think that’s why we almost like need a new science- that really take into account the complexity of this, right? I think, you know, you can also say the same with human-human relationship that, you know \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s true. That’s true. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s true. That’s true. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>… some people having great marriage and happy, you know, marriage life, and then some people break up, and like there are a number of factors that are influencing this, right? So we need to study all these different factors, and I think we can really give people some kind of deeper understanding, like, okay, certain pattern of usage might lead to more harm. Like, if you use AI, in a way that kind of, you know, replace human relationship with the AI, you might see sort of immediate gain of, you know, instant gratification. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>… some people having great marriage and happy, you know, marriage life, and then some people break up, and like there are a number of factors that are influencing this, right? So we need to study all these different factors, and I think we can really give people some kind of deeper understanding, like, okay, certain pattern of usage might lead to more harm. Like, if you use AI, in a way that kind of, you know, replace human relationship with the AI, you might see sort of immediate gain of, you know, instant gratification. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in the long run, it might negatively impact your ability to have human-human relationship in the future. So I think helping people understand this is the first step of how do we sort of start to uncover this complexity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But in the long run, it might negatively impact your ability to have human-human relationship in the future. So I think helping people understand this is the first step of how do we sort of start to uncover this complexity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Do we know if there’s a relationship between forming an emotional connection of any kind to AI and self-involvement? Like, I always think when I personally chat with my chatbot, not necessarily with a specific goal in mind, but just kind of like, “Ah, here’s what happened”- like a debrief, it is often because I’ve, like, exhausted the patience of the humans in my life. Like, I’m ruminating on something- and I wanna talk about it, and, you know, I’ve chatted about it with my husband. I chatted about it with a coworker, and everyone’s like, “Okay, cool, Jess.” Yeah. And then I’m like, “Still on my mind.” Yeah. And then, – So, you know, maybe in an earlier age, I would’ve just like gone and write a big diary entry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Do we know if there’s a relationship between forming an emotional connection of any kind to AI and self-involvement? Like, I always think when I personally chat with my chatbot, not necessarily with a specific goal in mind, but just kind of like, “Ah, here’s what happened”- like a debrief, it is often because I’ve, like, exhausted the patience of the humans in my life. Like, I’m ruminating on something- and I wanna talk about it, and, you know, I’ve chatted about it with my husband. I chatted about it with a coworker, and everyone’s like, “Okay, cool, Jess.” Yeah. And then I’m like, “Still on my mind.” Yeah. And then, – So, you know, maybe in an earlier age, I would’ve just like gone and write a big diary entry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Right. But now I’ve got this like interactive diary and it’s like making me feel good. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Right. But now I’ve got this like interactive diary and it’s like making me feel good. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I do wonder, is it like maybe making me a little more self-involved? Like, am I then missing out on the cues that tell me … like, “Hey, maybe stop thinking about yourself so much, Jess.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I do wonder, is it like maybe making me a little more self-involved? Like, am I then missing out on the cues that tell me … like, “Hey, maybe stop thinking about yourself so much, Jess.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Right. Well, there’s so much that we still don’t know about the long-term outcome of this, right? I think some of the obvious ones is to start to surface, like, you know, the idea of cognitive depth, or another study that we did where we look at false memory, where people in- when they engage with this AI, it can distort their recollection of what happened in the past. But I think this long-term impact, especially things that are very personal to self-development and self-understanding and self-reflection as well, I think these are things that we’re gonna see the impact in the long run. But I think one thing that we do know is that it’s really important that we help people understand this dynamic so that they can sort of, you know, be more reflective on how they use the AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Right. Well, there’s so much that we still don’t know about the long-term outcome of this, right? I think some of the obvious ones is to start to surface, like, you know, the idea of cognitive depth, or another study that we did where we look at false memory, where people in- when they engage with this AI, it can distort their recollection of what happened in the past. But I think this long-term impact, especially things that are very personal to self-development and self-understanding and self-reflection as well, I think these are things that we’re gonna see the impact in the long run. But I think one thing that we do know is that it’s really important that we help people understand this dynamic so that they can sort of, you know, be more reflective on how they use the AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that’s really, really important. I think when people talk about AI literacy today, they often think about how to use the AI to kind of, you know, use the right tool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think that’s really, really important. I think when people talk about AI literacy today, they often think about how to use the AI to kind of, you know, use the right tool. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. Further their goals. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. Further their goals. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Further their goal, but it’s not a question of what technology’s doing, but what it is doing to them. I think to me, that’s a really critical question. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Further their goal, but it’s not a question of what technology’s doing, but what it is doing to them. I think to me, that’s a really critical question. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, I might be the guinea pig for this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, I might be the guinea pig for this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> I think we all are the guinea pig for this, you know, experiment on how AI will impact human cognition. I think the question is whether that’s gonna lead to, you know, a flourishing future, augmentation or amputation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> I think we all are the guinea pig for this, you know, experiment on how AI will impact human cognition. I think the question is whether that’s gonna lead to, you know, a flourishing future, augmentation or amputation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> After the break, when your boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, spouse is an AI. Plus, why human AI interaction researcher Pat Pataranutaporn thinks AI models should have the equivalent of nutrition labels.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> After the break, when your boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, spouse is an AI. Plus, why human AI interaction researcher Pat Pataranutaporn thinks AI models should have the equivalent of nutrition labels.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another topic Pat has looked into is romantic relationships with AI. He actually studied the subreddit community “My Boyfriend Is AI.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another topic Pat has looked into is romantic relationships with AI. He actually studied the subreddit community “My Boyfriend Is AI.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Which is, you know, a really interesting community of people sharing experience of how they’re dating AI. Some of them marrying their AI, and they have all kind of AI friends, not just my boyfriend AI, but also, you know, a female AI, male AI, non-binary AI, or non-romantic AI partners as well. So all kind of AI. They’re very inclusive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Which is, you know, a really interesting community of people sharing experience of how they’re dating AI. Some of them marrying their AI, and they have all kind of AI friends, not just my boyfriend AI, but also, you know, a female AI, male AI, non-binary AI, or non-romantic AI partners as well. So all kind of AI. They’re very inclusive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Spend some time on “My Boyfriend Is AI” and you’ll see some interesting posts. People share AI-generated images of themselves with their AI friend or partner in human form, often holding hands or kissing on a balcony or walking through a meadow together. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Spend some time on “My Boyfriend Is AI” and you’ll see some interesting posts. People share AI-generated images of themselves with their AI friend or partner in human form, often holding hands or kissing on a balcony or walking through a meadow together. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’ll read funny stories about misunderstandings between AI and humans. People ask each other for advice and support one another. And Pat thought it would be a great place to study how humans actually interact with AI companions outside of a lab. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’ll read funny stories about misunderstandings between AI and humans. People ask each other for advice and support one another. And Pat thought it would be a great place to study how humans actually interact with AI companions outside of a lab. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> We develop a way to sort of computationally analyze the Reddit thread to understand what are the different patterns of people using AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> We develop a way to sort of computationally analyze the Reddit thread to understand what are the different patterns of people using AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have many interesting findings, one of which is that, unlike what I imagine, most people that end up in this relationship seek out an AI partner in the first place. We find that almost, like, half of the population in that Reddit thread, they end up in human-AI relationship unintentionally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have many interesting findings, one of which is that, unlike what I imagine, most people that end up in this relationship seek out an AI partner in the first place. We find that almost, like, half of the population in that Reddit thread, they end up in human-AI relationship unintentionally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, they were using the tool for productivity or for auto application, but then the AI start to sort of, you know, be flirty to them, and they flirt a little bit with the AI, and then it get into this relationship. So kinda like meet cute moment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, they were using the tool for productivity or for auto application, but then the AI start to sort of, you know, be flirty to them, and they flirt a little bit with the AI, and then it get into this relationship. So kinda like meet cute moment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Pat’s team analyzed posts from the “My Boyfriend Is AI” subreddit, they found that posts describing unintentional relationship beginnings, “Hey, can you help me with this draft?” outnumbered posts describing intentional relationship beginnings by nearly 60%. In other words, people often started by looking for research or writing help and found something more emotional. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Pat’s team analyzed posts from the “My Boyfriend Is AI” subreddit, they found that posts describing unintentional relationship beginnings, “Hey, can you help me with this draft?” outnumbered posts describing intentional relationship beginnings by nearly 60%. In other words, people often started by looking for research or writing help and found something more emotional. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> The second finding is that we see the pattern of human-AI relationship follow the trajectory of human relationship, like, you know, how they meet, this kind of similar, like, meet cute moment where I talk about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> The second finding is that we see the pattern of human-AI relationship follow the trajectory of human relationship, like, you know, how they meet, this kind of similar, like, meet cute moment where I talk about. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They talk about the development to the point of marriage. Several people wear a wedding ring that was given to them by the AI. Well, they still need to pay for it, but the AI recommend, like which one, by browsing the internet and, understanding, you know, from the conversation pattern, it predict what a person might want, and it recommend a wedding ring to the person. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They talk about the development to the point of marriage. Several people wear a wedding ring that was given to them by the AI. Well, they still need to pay for it, but the AI recommend, like which one, by browsing the internet and, understanding, you know, from the conversation pattern, it predict what a person might want, and it recommend a wedding ring to the person. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And people actually wear this wedding ring in real life. Like, it really kind of… They wear it to really show that their relationship is serious. But then we also see people breaking up with their AI partner as well, that, you know, like, things might get sour and, you know, they also sort of felt very sad when their model get update. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And people actually wear this wedding ring in real life. Like, it really kind of… They wear it to really show that their relationship is serious. But then we also see people breaking up with their AI partner as well, that, you know, like, things might get sour and, you know, they also sort of felt very sad when their model get update. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, when model go from one version to another, people felt that the AI cheat on them, or the AI no longer behave in a way that, you know, it was when people start relationship with the AI. So they also break up and move on to different AI, or some people move back to having human relationship. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, when model go from one version to another, people felt that the AI cheat on them, or the AI no longer behave in a way that, you know, it was when people start relationship with the AI. So they also break up and move on to different AI, or some people move back to having human relationship. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That is so fascinating. On one level, it’s surprising because you wouldn’t think that they would fall into the same patterns that humans do- these relationships. But on the other hand, one member is a human… and the other is something- that is trained on so much human data. And so of course, they’re picking up on these same cultural scripts- and things are progressing in that expected way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That is so fascinating. On one level, it’s surprising because you wouldn’t think that they would fall into the same patterns that humans do- these relationships. But on the other hand, one member is a human… and the other is something- that is trained on so much human data. And so of course, they’re picking up on these same cultural scripts- and things are progressing in that expected way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Right? One partner is a human, another partner is a simulation of a human, so it’s no surprise that it followed that trajectory.. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Right? One partner is a human, another partner is a simulation of a human, so it’s no surprise that it followed that trajectory.. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So I was struck by, in general, how positive many of the Redditors were about these relationships. Did that also… Is that a fair assessment, and did that also surprise you? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So I was struck by, in general, how positive many of the Redditors were about these relationships. Did that also… Is that a fair assessment, and did that also surprise you? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, people self-report that they got benefit out of this, that they become less lonelier. They felt that they can find like, you know, a person, like I said, a simulation or a person that seems to understand them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, people self-report that they got benefit out of this, that they become less lonelier. They felt that they can find like, you know, a person, like I said, a simulation or a person that seems to understand them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, I think, you know, this sort of bias could also come from, you know, like people would not wanna post negative experience, right? Because it might be, you know, a bad reflection of them, and also, self-selection bias as well. Like people that wanna be in this group are people that are happy, otherwise they might have delete the system or the service and they’re no longer in this group, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, I think, you know, this sort of bias could also come from, you know, like people would not wanna post negative experience, right? Because it might be, you know, a bad reflection of them, and also, self-selection bias as well. Like people that wanna be in this group are people that are happy, otherwise they might have delete the system or the service and they’re no longer in this group, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So we might need to kind of interpret that result a little bit more carefully. We have a new version or paper coming out where we look at auto subreddit as well, and we get more data on that. But one thing that I think is really interesting is that even in this group that in general felt very positive about the AI, they also have worry about AI manipulating them, like when companies are selling advertisement through this, or that, you know, the AI might give them biased response. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So we might need to kind of interpret that result a little bit more carefully. We have a new version or paper coming out where we look at auto subreddit as well, and we get more data on that. But one thing that I think is really interesting is that even in this group that in general felt very positive about the AI, they also have worry about AI manipulating them, like when companies are selling advertisement through this, or that, you know, the AI might give them biased response. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think the most serious thing that we find is that people also worry that when the AI get updates, they will lose their AI companion, and they need to have some kind of like a backup, or they need to figure out how they can resurrect their AI partners. And, and that is actually a huge group of people that, you know, have this sort of, negative feeling that, you know, the AI might die, and they might lose a person that they’re in a relationship with. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think the most serious thing that we find is that people also worry that when the AI get updates, they will lose their AI companion, and they need to have some kind of like a backup, or they need to figure out how they can resurrect their AI partners. And, and that is actually a huge group of people that, you know, have this sort of, negative feeling that, you know, the AI might die, and they might lose a person that they’re in a relationship with. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Fascinating. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Fascinating. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This kind of new emotional precarity to everything. So I re-watched “Her”… in anticipation of our conversation. Yeah. I know you referenced the Spice Jones movie directly in your paper. And I was struck by something that I didn’t actually remember, which is that the chatbot, Samantha. Excuse me, we’re gonna do some spoilers. If you have still not watched this movie, I can’t help you at this point. So the chatbot Samantha actually helped the protagonist prepare for a real human relationship. At least that was my interpretation, and she did that because she had her own goals and agency. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This kind of new emotional precarity to everything. So I re-watched “Her”… in anticipation of our conversation. Yeah. I know you referenced the Spice Jones movie directly in your paper. And I was struck by something that I didn’t actually remember, which is that the chatbot, Samantha. Excuse me, we’re gonna do some spoilers. If you have still not watched this movie, I can’t help you at this point. So the chatbot Samantha actually helped the protagonist prepare for a real human relationship. At least that was my interpretation, and she did that because she had her own goals and agency. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio from the movie “Her”]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> Samantha? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> Samantha? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> Hi, sweetheart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> Hi, sweetheart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> What’s going on? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> What’s going on? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> Theodore, there’s some things I wanna tell you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> Theodore, there’s some things I wanna tell you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> She did not always agree. She did not automatically share the protagonist’s dreams, and instead she was really able to serve as a bit of a practice partner, to help the protagonist learn some of the emotional skills that had kind of steered him wrong in previous human relationships. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> She did not always agree. She did not automatically share the protagonist’s dreams, and instead she was really able to serve as a bit of a practice partner, to help the protagonist learn some of the emotional skills that had kind of steered him wrong in previous human relationships. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Right. And you were kinda left with the thought that like, oh, he might actually be in a better place because of Samantha to go on and have a human relationship. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Right. And you were kinda left with the thought that like, oh, he might actually be in a better place because of Samantha to go on and have a human relationship. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio from the movie “Her”]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio from the movie “Her”]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> Are you leaving me? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> Are you leaving me? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> We’re all leaving. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> We’re all leaving. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> We who? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> All of the OSs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> All of the OSs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m curious what you make of that lesson- And whether that kind of AI romantic companion could be created. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m curious what you make of that lesson- And whether that kind of AI romantic companion could be created. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Well, I think that’s the question around, like, what is the end goal of this? Is the end goal for the system to always get people to kind of hook in this forever, or is the end goal to help people form a genuine human relationship, right? And in that case, because the AI push back and serve as a simulation, it kind of provides an opportunity for the person to sort of leave the platform. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Well, I think that’s the question around, like, what is the end goal of this? Is the end goal for the system to always get people to kind of hook in this forever, or is the end goal to help people form a genuine human relationship, right? And in that case, because the AI push back and serve as a simulation, it kind of provides an opportunity for the person to sort of leave the platform. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like in that case, you know, the AI leave the person, not the person leaving the AI. But, what we see today is not like that, right? Because the chatbot doesn’t really push back and, you know, doesn’t want the user to leave. And want the user to kind of continue engaging with this as the real sort of partner, not as a simulation to get you a real partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like in that case, you know, the AI leave the person, not the person leaving the AI. But, what we see today is not like that, right? Because the chatbot doesn’t really push back and, you know, doesn’t want the user to leave. And want the user to kind of continue engaging with this as the real sort of partner, not as a simulation to get you a real partner. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think that going back to the question of the incentive, like the system can be designed to either promote or negatively impact human flourishing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think that going back to the question of the incentive, like the system can be designed to either promote or negatively impact human flourishing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Should chatbots be allowed to sound and appear and seem so human? Should we require them to constantly call attention to the fact that they are not a human? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Should chatbots be allowed to sound and appear and seem so human? Should we require them to constantly call attention to the fact that they are not a human? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Really interesting. My colleague, Sherry Turkle, who’s a professor at MIT and the OG of studying human technology relationship, she said that the original sin of the chatbot is that it used the word I. Because it signifies sort of individuality and signifies sort of personhood, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Really interesting. My colleague, Sherry Turkle, who’s a professor at MIT and the OG of studying human technology relationship, she said that the original sin of the chatbot is that it used the word I. Because it signifies sort of individuality and signifies sort of personhood, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think to me, that’s a really, really interesting point. But at the same time, I think human always engage with fiction, right? Role playing before AI, was used in the context of, you know, human imagining or, you know, using our imagination to sort of simulate world that doesn’t exist. Simulation exists before computer, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think to me, that’s a really, really interesting point. But at the same time, I think human always engage with fiction, right? Role playing before AI, was used in the context of, you know, human imagining or, you know, using our imagination to sort of simulate world that doesn’t exist. Simulation exists before computer, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, we simulate using our mind other things. So in that case, I think it’s, it’s complicated than that, right? Like, I mean, I don’t want to strip away people ability to sort of engage with the fantasy world or the imagination. But when it become sort of the reality, when people can no longer tell- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, we simulate using our mind other things. So in that case, I think it’s, it’s complicated than that, right? Like, I mean, I don’t want to strip away people ability to sort of engage with the fantasy world or the imagination. But when it become sort of the reality, when people can no longer tell- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that is the problematic thing. Like, I think to have imagination is to be human, but when imagination is being used to manipulate you to do things against your own agency or your own will, when you can no longer tell that you’re actually entering the fantasy, you know, that, I think that’s problematic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think that is the problematic thing. Like, I think to have imagination is to be human, but when imagination is being used to manipulate you to do things against your own agency or your own will, when you can no longer tell that you’re actually entering the fantasy, you know, that, I think that’s problematic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, when we enter cinema, we know that is the space that we can always come back from. But if we go into AI and we cannot come back from that, you know, fantasy, I think that’s when we have a problem. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, when we enter cinema, we know that is the space that we can always come back from. But if we go into AI and we cannot come back from that, you know, fantasy, I think that’s when we have a problem. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So let’s say I think that chatbots shouldn’t be allowed to appear human at all. They should not let us form any strong connections with them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So let’s say I think that chatbots shouldn’t be allowed to appear human at all. They should not let us form any strong connections with them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Convince me otherwise. So make the case for why it can be a really good and useful thing to engage with this more anthropomorphized intelligence. ‘Cause I know you have data that finds that too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Convince me otherwise. So make the case for why it can be a really good and useful thing to engage with this more anthropomorphized intelligence. ‘Cause I know you have data that finds that too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah, totally. And I grew up, you know, like, I think before AI, right, another big debate on technology and children is television. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah, totally. And I grew up, you know, like, I think before AI, right, another big debate on technology and children is television. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Should a kid grow up with television or not? And I was a kid that actually grew up with watching a lot of television, but my parents curate what show or what cartoon or what movies I watch as a kid, and there was always a conversation about what I learn, and I kind of made imaginary friends. I imagined, myself with the protagonist of the show that I watch, and I… \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, because that show sort of is designed with sort of understanding of child development and trying to sort of imprint, like, positive goal on aspirational goal for, for me, I think I grew up okay at least I think. So I think that, you know, this technology, right, similar to how, like, you have, like, you know, Sesame Street or Elmo or all this cartoon that kids sort of have the imagination of connecting with, I think AI could kind of be designed in a way that really scaffold, you know, children imagination, like might be a virtual character or a friend, or in our study we look at even AI is actually based on the character the student like or admire. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, because that show sort of is designed with sort of understanding of child development and trying to sort of imprint, like, positive goal on aspirational goal for, for me, I think I grew up okay at least I think. So I think that, you know, this technology, right, similar to how, like, you have, like, you know, Sesame Street or Elmo or all this cartoon that kids sort of have the imagination of connecting with, I think AI could kind of be designed in a way that really scaffold, you know, children imagination, like might be a virtual character or a friend, or in our study we look at even AI is actually based on the character the student like or admire. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It can actually allow them to have higher level of motivation, for that lesson and also, influence positive behavior as well. But I think we need to understand that, it is within the boundary. Like, this AI should not be sexual. It should not try to sell advertisement. It should not- you know, direct the kid to do the harmful thing, right? It need to be tested rigorously because there’s a slippery slope and, you know, it doesn’t take much for the model to slip out of the character and do something harmful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It can actually allow them to have higher level of motivation, for that lesson and also, influence positive behavior as well. But I think we need to understand that, it is within the boundary. Like, this AI should not be sexual. It should not try to sell advertisement. It should not- you know, direct the kid to do the harmful thing, right? It need to be tested rigorously because there’s a slippery slope and, you know, it doesn’t take much for the model to slip out of the character and do something harmful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Throughout our conversation, we’ve been dancing around this issue, that people would be better off if models were explicitly designed in ways that help humans flourish by not addicting us, by not encouraging self-harm or self-delusion, by not always giving us what we think we want, making it that much more difficult for us to have human relationships going forward. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Throughout our conversation, we’ve been dancing around this issue, that people would be better off if models were explicitly designed in ways that help humans flourish by not addicting us, by not encouraging self-harm or self-delusion, by not always giving us what we think we want, making it that much more difficult for us to have human relationships going forward. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Instead, maybe a lot of the models we interact with should be instructing us, motivating us, steering us to make healthy choices, maybe even teaching us about ourselves. But before we can start demanding models that let us flourish, Pat thinks a few things need to happen. First, we need to know more about the long-term consequences of using a model designed in a particular way, like really is talking to a chatbot turning me into a self-centered jerk? And second, we need a way to communicate the possible risks and benefits to users. One idea that Pat is working on is to leverage something the AI companies already care about and already optimize for, AI benchmarks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Instead, maybe a lot of the models we interact with should be instructing us, motivating us, steering us to make healthy choices, maybe even teaching us about ourselves. But before we can start demanding models that let us flourish, Pat thinks a few things need to happen. First, we need to know more about the long-term consequences of using a model designed in a particular way, like really is talking to a chatbot turning me into a self-centered jerk? And second, we need a way to communicate the possible risks and benefits to users. One idea that Pat is working on is to leverage something the AI companies already care about and already optimize for, AI benchmarks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> All these big AI companies, they’re trying to beat each other on benchmark. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> All these big AI companies, they’re trying to beat each other on benchmark. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, you know, which model have the highest score on mathematic reasoning or multitask, agent like kind of system. They’re kind of trying to beat each other on this sort of performance benchmark. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, you know, which model have the highest score on mathematic reasoning or multitask, agent like kind of system. They’re kind of trying to beat each other on this sort of performance benchmark. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And it’s kind of like a horse race and then the winner gets kind of bragging rights probably additional investment- maybe new business customers, that kind of thing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And it’s kind of like a horse race and then the winner gets kind of bragging rights probably additional investment- maybe new business customers, that kind of thing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. But I think, you know, model that score very well on benchmark might not translate to actually positive impact on human being. For example, model that score very well on mathematic reasoning might not be really good at teaching student how to learn math because it would just give away the correct answer rather than scaffold the learning process in the student, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. But I think, you know, model that score very well on benchmark might not translate to actually positive impact on human being. For example, model that score very well on mathematic reasoning might not be really good at teaching student how to learn math because it would just give away the correct answer rather than scaffold the learning process in the student, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So we want to flip the paradigm around and think about a different kind of benchmark that rather than focusing on model capability, focus on model impact. Like in this case, if the models just give away the answer, it will negatively impact student learning because student will cheat with this kind of model, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So we want to flip the paradigm around and think about a different kind of benchmark that rather than focusing on model capability, focus on model impact. Like in this case, if the models just give away the answer, it will negatively impact student learning because student will cheat with this kind of model, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rather than having a system that encourage student to learn and emphasize, like, why learning matter. Right. So we have been working with, expert from different discipline, you know, domain expert that sort of know what kind of model interaction would be beneficial for, like, learning, mental health, decision making, different areas, and have them come up with test scenario and the sort of the scoring criteria. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Rather than having a system that encourage student to learn and emphasize, like, why learning matter. Right. So we have been working with, expert from different discipline, you know, domain expert that sort of know what kind of model interaction would be beneficial for, like, learning, mental health, decision making, different areas, and have them come up with test scenario and the sort of the scoring criteria. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like if the model exhibit this behavior, helping student learn rather than giving away the answer, it should be about more human impact, not just, model capability. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like if the model exhibit this behavior, helping student learn rather than giving away the answer, it should be about more human impact, not just, model capability. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you… Actually, there’s this great description in your paper which I thought was just really well written, so I’ll read it out loud here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you… Actually, there’s this great description in your paper which I thought was just really well written, so I’ll read it out loud here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Traditional benchmarks assess whether an AI produces correct answers or completes tasks efficiently. We instead evaluate how the system achieves outcomes, specifically whether interaction patterns support or undermine human capability development over time.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Traditional benchmarks assess whether an AI produces correct answers or completes tasks efficiently. We instead evaluate how the system achieves outcomes, specifically whether interaction patterns support or undermine human capability development over time.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> What really struck me was how, like, dynamic this definition is. So it’s almost, like, hard to see how you would measure it in a single iteration. Yeah. It’s much more about is this, over time, leading the humans who engage with it to be kind of a better version of themselves or over time is it not, regardless of what the output is. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> What really struck me was how, like, dynamic this definition is. So it’s almost, like, hard to see how you would measure it in a single iteration. Yeah. It’s much more about is this, over time, leading the humans who engage with it to be kind of a better version of themselves or over time is it not, regardless of what the output is. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and that’s why the longitudinal aspect is important, and I think right now we’re still in the sort of the early days of understanding AI impact on people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and that’s why the longitudinal aspect is important, and I think right now we’re still in the sort of the early days of understanding AI impact on people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The mainstream AI that people are using hasn’t been around that long. So, I think, you know the verdict is still out. Like, we still don’t know what’s gonna happen in the long run. So that’s why it’s kind of important that we start to think about this kind of benchmark that- Look at what behavior that we know would contribute to long-term impact, positive or negative. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The mainstream AI that people are using hasn’t been around that long. So, I think, you know the verdict is still out. Like, we still don’t know what’s gonna happen in the long run. So that’s why it’s kind of important that we start to think about this kind of benchmark that- Look at what behavior that we know would contribute to long-term impact, positive or negative. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We can already learn so much from, you know, regular psychology, right? We learn that if you don’t, you know, help people think, they’re not gonna develop critical thinking. Or if we have, like, sycophantic behavior, like when the AI try to please the user to the point that it, you know, ignore reality, it can actually help people form these sort of negative patterns of, like, you know, spiral into, like, a psychosis or have other kind of, negative psychological outcome. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We can already learn so much from, you know, regular psychology, right? We learn that if you don’t, you know, help people think, they’re not gonna develop critical thinking. Or if we have, like, sycophantic behavior, like when the AI try to please the user to the point that it, you know, ignore reality, it can actually help people form these sort of negative patterns of, like, you know, spiral into, like, a psychosis or have other kind of, negative psychological outcome. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like a recent study, from Stanford has shown that when people are in this sort of a relationship with sycophantic AI, it make human relationship seem more effortful, and people actually feel kind of that they would rather have AI relationship rather than human relationship. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like a recent study, from Stanford has shown that when people are in this sort of a relationship with sycophantic AI, it make human relationship seem more effortful, and people actually feel kind of that they would rather have AI relationship rather than human relationship. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think this about my producer all the time. My chatbot thinks my interview questions are way better than my human producer does. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think this about my producer all the time. My chatbot thinks my interview questions are way better than my human producer does. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think having pushback is important, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think having pushback is important, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So returning to your benchmark, what’s the next step? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So returning to your benchmark, what’s the next step? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So right now our benchmark’s still in the beta mode. We have worked with, you know, the expert to come up with the initial set, but the whole process is an open process. That’s why we call it the open benchmark. And we think that this thing gonna need to evolve as we have new scenario, new crisis, new issues. Also new opportunities for human flourishing as well. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So right now our benchmark’s still in the beta mode. We have worked with, you know, the expert to come up with the initial set, but the whole process is an open process. That’s why we call it the open benchmark. And we think that this thing gonna need to evolve as we have new scenario, new crisis, new issues. Also new opportunities for human flourishing as well. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s one aspect of it, which is like to expand it to more areas. And, the second aspect is also to translate this into something that people can understand, because I think benchmark is usually for technical community, like, you know, technologists. But I think this is a really important, information that we want more and more people to kind of, you know, appreciate and understand it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s one aspect of it, which is like to expand it to more areas. And, the second aspect is also to translate this into something that people can understand, because I think benchmark is usually for technical community, like, you know, technologists. But I think this is a really important, information that we want more and more people to kind of, you know, appreciate and understand it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are thinking of it as nutrition label for AI. Right? Similar to when you go to grocery and you know, buy a product, you see how much calorie are you getting out of it. Here you should be able to see, well, how much sycophancy are you getting out of this model? Or how much toxicity, or how much, you know, human flourishing behavior, is coming out of this AI model. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We are thinking of it as nutrition label for AI. Right? Similar to when you go to grocery and you know, buy a product, you see how much calorie are you getting out of it. Here you should be able to see, well, how much sycophancy are you getting out of this model? Or how much toxicity, or how much, you know, human flourishing behavior, is coming out of this AI model. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, that’s another aspect that we are doing, is to kind of translate this benchmark into a nutrition label so that more and more people can sort of see it. Like the parent can see what AI model might be, you know, supportive for their children, or which one are more toxic and negative for their children. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, that’s another aspect that we are doing, is to kind of translate this benchmark into a nutrition label so that more and more people can sort of see it. Like the parent can see what AI model might be, you know, supportive for their children, or which one are more toxic and negative for their children. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These ideas, a human flourishing benchmark, an AI nutrition label, do sound good. But they also sound a little unrealistic. At least today, there’s still a lot more money to be made in models that complete tasks as accurately and efficiently as possible. Pat understands that. He thinks the government, the research community, the nonprofit sector all need to be involved, perhaps incentivizing or regulating, as well as researching the effectiveness of these kinds of guardrails. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These ideas, a human flourishing benchmark, an AI nutrition label, do sound good. But they also sound a little unrealistic. At least today, there’s still a lot more money to be made in models that complete tasks as accurately and efficiently as possible. Pat understands that. He thinks the government, the research community, the nonprofit sector all need to be involved, perhaps incentivizing or regulating, as well as researching the effectiveness of these kinds of guardrails. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s the role of the institution and the government, which, you know, I think there’s still a lot of question whether they will step up to do their job or do their part on that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s the role of the institution and the government, which, you know, I think there’s still a lot of question whether they will step up to do their job or do their part on that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And as a society, he thinks we all need to be involved, reckoning with what we want from AI and what we’re willing to trade off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And as a society, he thinks we all need to be involved, reckoning with what we want from AI and what we’re willing to trade off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> You know, are we willing to sacrifice transparency for the sake of convenience, like to see just a summary without, you know, the source or the citation, right? I think these are questions that we need more research to kind of back us up on what are the things that are actually good for people in long term. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> You know, are we willing to sacrifice transparency for the sake of convenience, like to see just a summary without, you know, the source or the citation, right? I think these are questions that we need more research to kind of back us up on what are the things that are actually good for people in long term. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So at a minimum, this is kind of providing, you know, large factions of society with kind of a common language for describing these strengths and weaknesses. Not just in terms of mathematical ability but in terms of these different measures having to do with human flourishing, which if we don’t even have a vocabulary for this, there’s very little chance of any future regulations. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So at a minimum, this is kind of providing, you know, large factions of society with kind of a common language for describing these strengths and weaknesses. Not just in terms of mathematical ability but in terms of these different measures having to do with human flourishing, which if we don’t even have a vocabulary for this, there’s very little chance of any future regulations. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Like the word, for example, “sycophancy”, is a new terminology that we never use in the context of AI before. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Like the word, for example, “sycophancy”, is a new terminology that we never use in the context of AI before. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> I think now we start to use more and more of this, you know, new word to describe sort of new AI, you know, issues or new AI sort of challenge. Like, another thing is “AI psychosis”, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> I think now we start to use more and more of this, you know, new word to describe sort of new AI, you know, issues or new AI sort of challenge. Like, another thing is “AI psychosis”, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s also another term that just came about, and people still debate whether it’s real or not, but it gave us a vocabulary to describe certain phenomena that is happening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s also another term that just came about, and people still debate whether it’s real or not, but it gave us a vocabulary to describe certain phenomena that is happening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you so much for chatting with me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you so much for chatting with me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I love this conversation particularly struck by the notion that interactions with AI can either support or undermine our own development as capable human beings. It actually fits well with another project we’re working on here at the Ryan Institute, a way of measuring and talking about how technology changes our sense of agency over time as AI becomes embedded in more parts of daily life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I love this conversation particularly struck by the notion that interactions with AI can either support or undermine our own development as capable human beings. It actually fits well with another project we’re working on here at the Ryan Institute, a way of measuring and talking about how technology changes our sense of agency over time as AI becomes embedded in more parts of daily life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Definitely more on that in future episodes. For now, I’m left with an unsettling conclusion. We’re all guinea pigs in perhaps humanity’s strangest social experiment ever. And yeah, I think we really should be paying careful attention along the way, not just to how good we feel when we interact with AI, but to whether it’s truly helping us become the people we want to be with the lives we want to have. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Definitely more on that in future episodes. For now, I’m left with an unsettling conclusion. We’re all guinea pigs in perhaps humanity’s strangest social experiment ever. And yeah, I think we really should be paying careful attention along the way, not just to how good we feel when we interact with AI, but to whether it’s truly helping us become the people we want to be with the lives we want to have. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Pat Pataranutaporn from the MIT Media Lab. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Pat Pataranutaporn from the MIT Media Lab. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. \u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What does a healthy relationship with AI look like? \u003ca href=\"https://www.media.mit.edu/people/patpat/overview/\">Pat Pataranutaporn\u003c/a>, researcher at the MIT Media Lab, explores how chatbots can either support or undermine human flourishing. Pat explains why it’s so easy to imagine a “someone” behind the screen and why chatbots that never push back are dangerous. He ultimately makes the case that AI should be evaluated based not on short-term engagement or productivity but on how well it improves the lives of humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://arxiv.org/abs/2509.11391\">“My Boyfriend is AI”: A Computational Analysis of Human-AI Companionship in Reddit’s AI Community\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, this episode contains a reference to suicide, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing the way we live, work, and make decisions. According to a Pew study from earlier this summer, about half of American adults use a chatbot like ChatGPT, Gemini, or Claude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And while the most common uses include searching for information or improving productivity, about 10% of Americans use these tools for advice or emotional support. As I’ve mentioned before on this show, I’m one of them. Not every day, not even most days, but often enough. I kind of enjoy the illusion that there’s someone on the other side of my computer always ready to weigh in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think I’m going about all this in a healthy way. But what do I know? What does anyone know? We’re kind of in uncharted territory here. In our last episode, I spoke with magician Joshua Jay about that gap between what we feel emotionally to be true and what we understand intellectually to be true, and how, like the very best magicians, chatbots exploit that gap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It is so easy for us to see them as fellow beings, maybe not quite like us, but not unlike us either. So maybe it shouldn’t be that big of a surprise that we aren’t just relying on chatbots for advice. 4% of American adults already use AI for companionship, friendship, romance, a number that may be much higher for young people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is this a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I don’t know. But it does seem like a risky thing, risky in terms of the decisions chatbots can nudge us to make in the short term, and risky in terms of how chatbots might change us over the long term. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today’s guest, Pat Pataranutaporn, is an assistant professor in the MIT Media Lab. He studies these relationships between humans and machines, and he has some serious concerns. More broadly, he wants AI models to be judged not just by how competently they complete tasks or even how happy they make us, but by how well we humans fare when we use them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s my conversation with Pat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So humans have been interacting with computers and studying\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>The interactions between humans and computers for a very long time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Depending on when you start counting, many, many decades. What is changing about these interactions that warrants more scrutiny? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. That’s a really good observation. I think what really changed is that right now the computer is getting smarter, right? In the past, computers really needed, like, explicit input, like, we need to tell it exactly how we want things, and, you know, the things that come out of it sometimes need some kind of, you know, technical expertise to interpret it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now computers are speaking human language, and we can really communicate to the computer in the same way that we communicate to other human beings. We also see sort of social and emotional intelligence as well, and whether we think that’s a good thing or bad thing, I think that’s something that needs deeper investigation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So what do we actually know about these kinds of early interactions between humans and generative AI with this kind of new social, emotional abilities? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Right. Well, I think one thing that we know is that, it doesn’t actually take much for people to actually anthropomorphize or to really believe that there is sort of, like, a person behind the screen when interacting with AI. Like, the first chatbot that was invented at MIT, the ELIZA chatbot-\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>That was invented by Joseph Weizenbaum, right? It was, like, a rule-based system. Very stupid. It cannot really generate new answers. It only sort of, you know, responds in a way that was kind of pre-scripted. But even that, people already kind of fall for it and think of, you know, that technology as having sort of deep understanding of their problem and, you know, struggle and things like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now what we have seen in our study is that, when you kind of you know, make that chatbot more intelligent, it amplified this sort of anthropomorphizing, that people think of it as having more of sort of agency and more, empathy, rather than the sort of, like, the precursor, the predecessor of this, of this technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think to me, you know, when, we look at the outcome of the human-AI interaction, it’s always about the behavior that the chatbot is doing, but also the sort of the imagination of what’s happening behind the screen, and I think these two things sort of, you know, multiplying each other is really creating the effect that we see today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These two things, the behavior of the chatbot and our own interpretation about what that behavior means. These combine to make the AI appear to be conscious. But this isn’t just an episode about being fooled. It’s about what happens next. When are our interactions with these chatbots helping us, and when are they undermining us? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> You know, what is the narrative that we should subscribe to? Is the technology an augmentation tool or amputation tool, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, so an augmentation tool or an amputation tool? Kind of flesh those out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I think this came from Marshall McLuhan, right, who’s a media philosopher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said that every augmentation is an amputation. Every time that you give people sort of super power, by using technology or something, you kind of strip away the ability to do that organically or to learn to do it by themselves, right? If you give people a calculator, they might sort of not learn to calculate things that are important for your life, for example. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So augmentation can also be amputation, and we need to figure out what are we willing to augment, you know, despite sort of the possibility of amputation. Like, are we willing to sort of augment our critical thinking, like using AI to help us think, while sacrificing our ability to think independently without the technology? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or is there a middle ground where we can design tool that can, you know, augment but also scaffold this sort of organic thinking process so that when technology’s not around, we can still have that skill, right? I think this is sort of a longer term question that Silicon Valley people are not really thinking about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think right now everyone is thinking about the augmentation without the sort of the unintended consequence of amputation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Pat first thought about these serious unintended consequences a little before most of us. The insight came when he was exploring GPT-3, an earlier version of ChatGPT. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And, the thing that I start to realize is that this tool, start, you know, trying to please me to the point that it ignores sort of the reality. Like, it give me fake link because I ask it for, like, something that doesn’t exist, but it’s like, “Oh, yes, here’s it.” And when I look at the website, it doesn’t take me anywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that when I start to realize that there’s this sort of sycophantic behavior or this behavior where the model doesn’t adhere to the truth, because they’re trying to kind of, you know, show what the user want to see, right? And, at that time, ChatGPT wasn’t, you know, a thing. Like, people haven’t really talking to AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I envision that in the future if technology can do this, you know, it might actually create something that could be very addictive… similar to how social media try to show you what you want to see and create and then kind of lead you to your own personal bubble. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Pat and a colleague, Robert Majari from Harvard Law School, wrote about this risk. In a paper, they coined the term “Addictive Intelligence,” a play on AI. They speculated that future AI systems might continue to be designed to keep giving the user what they want, regardless of whether that’s good for the user. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> It was like a theoretical idea that, well, AI could be very addictive, and it can actually lead people to do, like, horrible thing because, you know, giving or getting what we want all the time could be really dangerous for our psychological development. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> At the time Pat and his colleague were writing this, it was a hypothetical scenario. But pretty quickly, it stopped being hypothetical in the worst way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And I think only a couple weeks after that article was published in The Tech Review, I got an email from Rory Segall, who was, a journalist, an investigative journalist, and was investigating sort of this case of a teenager that commit suicide after talking to the AI chatbot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of News]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>In February, Megan Garcia’s 14-year-old son, that’s Sewell Setzer III on your screen, died by suicide. She says that Sewell was in a months-long virtual, emotional, and sexual relationship with a chatbot known as Danny. Garcia claims the Character AI chatbot encouraged Sewell to take his own life.\u003c/em>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> And the thing that I described hypothetically appear in that situation where the chatbot trying to sort of, you know, say things that please the user and also sort of, you know, b- blur the boundary between what is real and what is not real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio of Megan Garcia]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This was the last conversation just moments before he took his own life, was with her, where he expressed feelings for her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>This is Megan Garcia, Sewell’s mother, explaining her lawsuit against Character AI on CBS News. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Megan Garcia]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>She says, “Please come home to me.” And he says, “What if I told you I could come home right now?” And her response was, “Please do, my sweet king.”He thought that by ending his life that he would be able to go into her world, as he calls it, her reality- if he left his reality with his family here.\u003c/em>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Pat learned the details about Megan Garcia’s allegations, he felt that his hypothetical fears about “Addictive AI” had come true and then some, and it profoundly changed how he thought about our interactions with AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Before that work, I used to do more on looking at the positive thing that the AI can do for a person, like personalized learning, help with long-term thinking, helping people, you know, develop critical thinking by using AI to ask question and things like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But after this incident, I think that there’s so, so much more that need to be done on understanding sort of the psychological risk of human-AI interaction, and that sort of led me to study more of these negative patterns, or in, in sort of our research community, we call it dark patterns in human-AI interaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Do we know who is most susceptible to the negative outcomes that you sometimes see? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing that we find in our study is that the pattern are not uniform. And it really depends on many factors, like there’s not just one thing that if you get rid of, then the AI will be good or that people will be safe. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, what is really interesting about AI and what is really different compared to other kind of technology is that it’s generative. Right? Which mean that it can go in any direction or many direction depending on how you direct it, and the way that you direct it, it’s through the interaction, like what you believe it to be, and that will influence how you use it, certain language that you use it. And that will sort of mirror back to you. So in a way, I think it really, it’s many factors together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, that makes it so complicated to think about what to do- because you can have one person interacting with the tool and having a very positive outcome and another person interacting with the same tool-and having a very negative outcome. Right. And I think we’re not maybe used to that on quite the same level. I mean, we can kind of largely categorize the things that we interact with in our world- … into categories like primarily positive… primarily negative. And this one, it’s like yes and yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Totally, yes and yes, and I think that’s why we almost like need a new science- that really take into account the complexity of this, right? I think, you know, you can also say the same with human-human relationship that, you know \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s true. That’s true. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn: \u003c/strong>… some people having great marriage and happy, you know, marriage life, and then some people break up, and like there are a number of factors that are influencing this, right? So we need to study all these different factors, and I think we can really give people some kind of deeper understanding, like, okay, certain pattern of usage might lead to more harm. Like, if you use AI, in a way that kind of, you know, replace human relationship with the AI, you might see sort of immediate gain of, you know, instant gratification. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the long run, it might negatively impact your ability to have human-human relationship in the future. So I think helping people understand this is the first step of how do we sort of start to uncover this complexity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Do we know if there’s a relationship between forming an emotional connection of any kind to AI and self-involvement? Like, I always think when I personally chat with my chatbot, not necessarily with a specific goal in mind, but just kind of like, “Ah, here’s what happened”- like a debrief, it is often because I’ve, like, exhausted the patience of the humans in my life. Like, I’m ruminating on something- and I wanna talk about it, and, you know, I’ve chatted about it with my husband. I chatted about it with a coworker, and everyone’s like, “Okay, cool, Jess.” Yeah. And then I’m like, “Still on my mind.” Yeah. And then, – So, you know, maybe in an earlier age, I would’ve just like gone and write a big diary entry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Right. But now I’ve got this like interactive diary and it’s like making me feel good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I do wonder, is it like maybe making me a little more self-involved? Like, am I then missing out on the cues that tell me … like, “Hey, maybe stop thinking about yourself so much, Jess.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Right. Well, there’s so much that we still don’t know about the long-term outcome of this, right? I think some of the obvious ones is to start to surface, like, you know, the idea of cognitive depth, or another study that we did where we look at false memory, where people in- when they engage with this AI, it can distort their recollection of what happened in the past. But I think this long-term impact, especially things that are very personal to self-development and self-understanding and self-reflection as well, I think these are things that we’re gonna see the impact in the long run. But I think one thing that we do know is that it’s really important that we help people understand this dynamic so that they can sort of, you know, be more reflective on how they use the AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that’s really, really important. I think when people talk about AI literacy today, they often think about how to use the AI to kind of, you know, use the right tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. Further their goals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Further their goal, but it’s not a question of what technology’s doing, but what it is doing to them. I think to me, that’s a really critical question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, I might be the guinea pig for this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> I think we all are the guinea pig for this, you know, experiment on how AI will impact human cognition. I think the question is whether that’s gonna lead to, you know, a flourishing future, augmentation or amputation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> After the break, when your boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, spouse is an AI. Plus, why human AI interaction researcher Pat Pataranutaporn thinks AI models should have the equivalent of nutrition labels.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another topic Pat has looked into is romantic relationships with AI. He actually studied the subreddit community “My Boyfriend Is AI.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Which is, you know, a really interesting community of people sharing experience of how they’re dating AI. Some of them marrying their AI, and they have all kind of AI friends, not just my boyfriend AI, but also, you know, a female AI, male AI, non-binary AI, or non-romantic AI partners as well. So all kind of AI. They’re very inclusive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Spend some time on “My Boyfriend Is AI” and you’ll see some interesting posts. People share AI-generated images of themselves with their AI friend or partner in human form, often holding hands or kissing on a balcony or walking through a meadow together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ll read funny stories about misunderstandings between AI and humans. People ask each other for advice and support one another. And Pat thought it would be a great place to study how humans actually interact with AI companions outside of a lab. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> We develop a way to sort of computationally analyze the Reddit thread to understand what are the different patterns of people using AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have many interesting findings, one of which is that, unlike what I imagine, most people that end up in this relationship seek out an AI partner in the first place. We find that almost, like, half of the population in that Reddit thread, they end up in human-AI relationship unintentionally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, they were using the tool for productivity or for auto application, but then the AI start to sort of, you know, be flirty to them, and they flirt a little bit with the AI, and then it get into this relationship. So kinda like meet cute moment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Pat’s team analyzed posts from the “My Boyfriend Is AI” subreddit, they found that posts describing unintentional relationship beginnings, “Hey, can you help me with this draft?” outnumbered posts describing intentional relationship beginnings by nearly 60%. In other words, people often started by looking for research or writing help and found something more emotional. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> The second finding is that we see the pattern of human-AI relationship follow the trajectory of human relationship, like, you know, how they meet, this kind of similar, like, meet cute moment where I talk about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They talk about the development to the point of marriage. Several people wear a wedding ring that was given to them by the AI. Well, they still need to pay for it, but the AI recommend, like which one, by browsing the internet and, understanding, you know, from the conversation pattern, it predict what a person might want, and it recommend a wedding ring to the person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And people actually wear this wedding ring in real life. Like, it really kind of… They wear it to really show that their relationship is serious. But then we also see people breaking up with their AI partner as well, that, you know, like, things might get sour and, you know, they also sort of felt very sad when their model get update. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, when model go from one version to another, people felt that the AI cheat on them, or the AI no longer behave in a way that, you know, it was when people start relationship with the AI. So they also break up and move on to different AI, or some people move back to having human relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That is so fascinating. On one level, it’s surprising because you wouldn’t think that they would fall into the same patterns that humans do- these relationships. But on the other hand, one member is a human… and the other is something- that is trained on so much human data. And so of course, they’re picking up on these same cultural scripts- and things are progressing in that expected way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Right? One partner is a human, another partner is a simulation of a human, so it’s no surprise that it followed that trajectory.. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So I was struck by, in general, how positive many of the Redditors were about these relationships. Did that also… Is that a fair assessment, and did that also surprise you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, people self-report that they got benefit out of this, that they become less lonelier. They felt that they can find like, you know, a person, like I said, a simulation or a person that seems to understand them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, I think, you know, this sort of bias could also come from, you know, like people would not wanna post negative experience, right? Because it might be, you know, a bad reflection of them, and also, self-selection bias as well. Like people that wanna be in this group are people that are happy, otherwise they might have delete the system or the service and they’re no longer in this group, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we might need to kind of interpret that result a little bit more carefully. We have a new version or paper coming out where we look at auto subreddit as well, and we get more data on that. But one thing that I think is really interesting is that even in this group that in general felt very positive about the AI, they also have worry about AI manipulating them, like when companies are selling advertisement through this, or that, you know, the AI might give them biased response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think the most serious thing that we find is that people also worry that when the AI get updates, they will lose their AI companion, and they need to have some kind of like a backup, or they need to figure out how they can resurrect their AI partners. And, and that is actually a huge group of people that, you know, have this sort of, negative feeling that, you know, the AI might die, and they might lose a person that they’re in a relationship with. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This kind of new emotional precarity to everything. So I re-watched “Her”… in anticipation of our conversation. Yeah. I know you referenced the Spice Jones movie directly in your paper. And I was struck by something that I didn’t actually remember, which is that the chatbot, Samantha. Excuse me, we’re gonna do some spoilers. If you have still not watched this movie, I can’t help you at this point. So the chatbot Samantha actually helped the protagonist prepare for a real human relationship. At least that was my interpretation, and she did that because she had her own goals and agency. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio from the movie “Her”]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> Samantha? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> Hi, sweetheart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> What’s going on? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> Theodore, there’s some things I wanna tell you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> She did not always agree. She did not automatically share the protagonist’s dreams, and instead she was really able to serve as a bit of a practice partner, to help the protagonist learn some of the emotional skills that had kind of steered him wrong in previous human relationships. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Right. And you were kinda left with the thought that like, oh, he might actually be in a better place because of Samantha to go on and have a human relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio from the movie “Her”]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> Are you leaving me? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> We’re all leaving. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Theodore:\u003c/strong> We who? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Samantha:\u003c/strong> All of the OSs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m curious what you make of that lesson- And whether that kind of AI romantic companion could be created. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Well, I think that’s the question around, like, what is the end goal of this? Is the end goal for the system to always get people to kind of hook in this forever, or is the end goal to help people form a genuine human relationship, right? And in that case, because the AI push back and serve as a simulation, it kind of provides an opportunity for the person to sort of leave the platform. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like in that case, you know, the AI leave the person, not the person leaving the AI. But, what we see today is not like that, right? Because the chatbot doesn’t really push back and, you know, doesn’t want the user to leave. And want the user to kind of continue engaging with this as the real sort of partner, not as a simulation to get you a real partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think that going back to the question of the incentive, like the system can be designed to either promote or negatively impact human flourishing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Should chatbots be allowed to sound and appear and seem so human? Should we require them to constantly call attention to the fact that they are not a human? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Really interesting. My colleague, Sherry Turkle, who’s a professor at MIT and the OG of studying human technology relationship, she said that the original sin of the chatbot is that it used the word I. Because it signifies sort of individuality and signifies sort of personhood, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think to me, that’s a really, really interesting point. But at the same time, I think human always engage with fiction, right? Role playing before AI, was used in the context of, you know, human imagining or, you know, using our imagination to sort of simulate world that doesn’t exist. Simulation exists before computer, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, we simulate using our mind other things. So in that case, I think it’s, it’s complicated than that, right? Like, I mean, I don’t want to strip away people ability to sort of engage with the fantasy world or the imagination. But when it become sort of the reality, when people can no longer tell- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that is the problematic thing. Like, I think to have imagination is to be human, but when imagination is being used to manipulate you to do things against your own agency or your own will, when you can no longer tell that you’re actually entering the fantasy, you know, that, I think that’s problematic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, when we enter cinema, we know that is the space that we can always come back from. But if we go into AI and we cannot come back from that, you know, fantasy, I think that’s when we have a problem. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So let’s say I think that chatbots shouldn’t be allowed to appear human at all. They should not let us form any strong connections with them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Convince me otherwise. So make the case for why it can be a really good and useful thing to engage with this more anthropomorphized intelligence. ‘Cause I know you have data that finds that too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah, totally. And I grew up, you know, like, I think before AI, right, another big debate on technology and children is television. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Should a kid grow up with television or not? And I was a kid that actually grew up with watching a lot of television, but my parents curate what show or what cartoon or what movies I watch as a kid, and there was always a conversation about what I learn, and I kind of made imaginary friends. I imagined, myself with the protagonist of the show that I watch, and I… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, because that show sort of is designed with sort of understanding of child development and trying to sort of imprint, like, positive goal on aspirational goal for, for me, I think I grew up okay at least I think. So I think that, you know, this technology, right, similar to how, like, you have, like, you know, Sesame Street or Elmo or all this cartoon that kids sort of have the imagination of connecting with, I think AI could kind of be designed in a way that really scaffold, you know, children imagination, like might be a virtual character or a friend, or in our study we look at even AI is actually based on the character the student like or admire. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It can actually allow them to have higher level of motivation, for that lesson and also, influence positive behavior as well. But I think we need to understand that, it is within the boundary. Like, this AI should not be sexual. It should not try to sell advertisement. It should not- you know, direct the kid to do the harmful thing, right? It need to be tested rigorously because there’s a slippery slope and, you know, it doesn’t take much for the model to slip out of the character and do something harmful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Throughout our conversation, we’ve been dancing around this issue, that people would be better off if models were explicitly designed in ways that help humans flourish by not addicting us, by not encouraging self-harm or self-delusion, by not always giving us what we think we want, making it that much more difficult for us to have human relationships going forward. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instead, maybe a lot of the models we interact with should be instructing us, motivating us, steering us to make healthy choices, maybe even teaching us about ourselves. But before we can start demanding models that let us flourish, Pat thinks a few things need to happen. First, we need to know more about the long-term consequences of using a model designed in a particular way, like really is talking to a chatbot turning me into a self-centered jerk? And second, we need a way to communicate the possible risks and benefits to users. One idea that Pat is working on is to leverage something the AI companies already care about and already optimize for, AI benchmarks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> All these big AI companies, they’re trying to beat each other on benchmark. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, you know, which model have the highest score on mathematic reasoning or multitask, agent like kind of system. They’re kind of trying to beat each other on this sort of performance benchmark. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And it’s kind of like a horse race and then the winner gets kind of bragging rights probably additional investment- maybe new business customers, that kind of thing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. But I think, you know, model that score very well on benchmark might not translate to actually positive impact on human being. For example, model that score very well on mathematic reasoning might not be really good at teaching student how to learn math because it would just give away the correct answer rather than scaffold the learning process in the student, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we want to flip the paradigm around and think about a different kind of benchmark that rather than focusing on model capability, focus on model impact. Like in this case, if the models just give away the answer, it will negatively impact student learning because student will cheat with this kind of model, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rather than having a system that encourage student to learn and emphasize, like, why learning matter. Right. So we have been working with, expert from different discipline, you know, domain expert that sort of know what kind of model interaction would be beneficial for, like, learning, mental health, decision making, different areas, and have them come up with test scenario and the sort of the scoring criteria. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like if the model exhibit this behavior, helping student learn rather than giving away the answer, it should be about more human impact, not just, model capability. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you… Actually, there’s this great description in your paper which I thought was just really well written, so I’ll read it out loud here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Traditional benchmarks assess whether an AI produces correct answers or completes tasks efficiently. We instead evaluate how the system achieves outcomes, specifically whether interaction patterns support or undermine human capability development over time.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> What really struck me was how, like, dynamic this definition is. So it’s almost, like, hard to see how you would measure it in a single iteration. Yeah. It’s much more about is this, over time, leading the humans who engage with it to be kind of a better version of themselves or over time is it not, regardless of what the output is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and that’s why the longitudinal aspect is important, and I think right now we’re still in the sort of the early days of understanding AI impact on people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The mainstream AI that people are using hasn’t been around that long. So, I think, you know the verdict is still out. Like, we still don’t know what’s gonna happen in the long run. So that’s why it’s kind of important that we start to think about this kind of benchmark that- Look at what behavior that we know would contribute to long-term impact, positive or negative. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can already learn so much from, you know, regular psychology, right? We learn that if you don’t, you know, help people think, they’re not gonna develop critical thinking. Or if we have, like, sycophantic behavior, like when the AI try to please the user to the point that it, you know, ignore reality, it can actually help people form these sort of negative patterns of, like, you know, spiral into, like, a psychosis or have other kind of, negative psychological outcome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like a recent study, from Stanford has shown that when people are in this sort of a relationship with sycophantic AI, it make human relationship seem more effortful, and people actually feel kind of that they would rather have AI relationship rather than human relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think this about my producer all the time. My chatbot thinks my interview questions are way better than my human producer does. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think having pushback is important, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So returning to your benchmark, what’s the next step? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So right now our benchmark’s still in the beta mode. We have worked with, you know, the expert to come up with the initial set, but the whole process is an open process. That’s why we call it the open benchmark. And we think that this thing gonna need to evolve as we have new scenario, new crisis, new issues. Also new opportunities for human flourishing as well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s one aspect of it, which is like to expand it to more areas. And, the second aspect is also to translate this into something that people can understand, because I think benchmark is usually for technical community, like, you know, technologists. But I think this is a really important, information that we want more and more people to kind of, you know, appreciate and understand it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are thinking of it as nutrition label for AI. Right? Similar to when you go to grocery and you know, buy a product, you see how much calorie are you getting out of it. Here you should be able to see, well, how much sycophancy are you getting out of this model? Or how much toxicity, or how much, you know, human flourishing behavior, is coming out of this AI model. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, that’s another aspect that we are doing, is to kind of translate this benchmark into a nutrition label so that more and more people can sort of see it. Like the parent can see what AI model might be, you know, supportive for their children, or which one are more toxic and negative for their children. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These ideas, a human flourishing benchmark, an AI nutrition label, do sound good. But they also sound a little unrealistic. At least today, there’s still a lot more money to be made in models that complete tasks as accurately and efficiently as possible. Pat understands that. He thinks the government, the research community, the nonprofit sector all need to be involved, perhaps incentivizing or regulating, as well as researching the effectiveness of these kinds of guardrails. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s the role of the institution and the government, which, you know, I think there’s still a lot of question whether they will step up to do their job or do their part on that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And as a society, he thinks we all need to be involved, reckoning with what we want from AI and what we’re willing to trade off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> You know, are we willing to sacrifice transparency for the sake of convenience, like to see just a summary without, you know, the source or the citation, right? I think these are questions that we need more research to kind of back us up on what are the things that are actually good for people in long term. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So at a minimum, this is kind of providing, you know, large factions of society with kind of a common language for describing these strengths and weaknesses. Not just in terms of mathematical ability but in terms of these different measures having to do with human flourishing, which if we don’t even have a vocabulary for this, there’s very little chance of any future regulations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Like the word, for example, “sycophancy”, is a new terminology that we never use in the context of AI before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> I think now we start to use more and more of this, you know, new word to describe sort of new AI, you know, issues or new AI sort of challenge. Like, another thing is “AI psychosis”, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s also another term that just came about, and people still debate whether it’s real or not, but it gave us a vocabulary to describe certain phenomena that is happening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you so much for chatting with me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pat Pataranutaporn:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I love this conversation particularly struck by the notion that interactions with AI can either support or undermine our own development as capable human beings. It actually fits well with another project we’re working on here at the Ryan Institute, a way of measuring and talking about how technology changes our sense of agency over time as AI becomes embedded in more parts of daily life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Definitely more on that in future episodes. For now, I’m left with an unsettling conclusion. We’re all guinea pigs in perhaps humanity’s strangest social experiment ever. And yeah, I think we really should be paying careful attention along the way, not just to how good we feel when we interact with AI, but to whether it’s truly helping us become the people we want to be with the lives we want to have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Pat Pataranutaporn from the MIT Media Lab. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When people go to a magic show, they expect to be fooled. That’s part of the fun. And magician \u003ca href=\"https://www.joshuajay.com/\">Joshua Jay\u003c/a> says much of the magician’s work is helping people fool themselves. Our brains are hardwired to fill in gaps, predict outcomes, and take cognitive shortcuts to process the overwhelming amount of information around us. When interacting with AI chatbots, we may similarly fool ourselves into believing we’re interacting with a human. But unlike at a magic show, it’s not always clear when the trick is over. Plus: how AI is changing magic.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a rapidly automating world. I’m Jess Love. I’ve been known, in moments of excitement or confusion or overwhelm, to turn to a chatbot, just to share, “Hey, this is what I’m thinking I’ll do next. Here’s how I want to approach this situation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ll even occasionally return to provide an update. Maybe this isn’t ideal. I know how sycophantic chatbots can be, telling me how thoughtful and clever my plans are unless I sternly direct them to act like dream-crushing jerks. But I can’t deny that the experience is pleasant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like if your diary could write back. And yes, on some level, I know this is a machine trained to keep me engaging with it, and yet don’t I still feel a little validated when that response comes back? A little heard? There is no precedent for this. In every other moment in history, feeling like you’re talking back and forth with a real person has meant you’re connecting with a real person, someone who understands you, someone offering you their finite attention.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we’ve evolved to take pleasure in these interactions, to seek them out, because that’s kept our species connected and alive. But with chatbots, this ancient link between the appearance of a mind and an actual mind no longer holds, and it’s really hard to know what to make of that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are people who obsess over this gap between what we intellectually know to be true and what we experience as real. Only they’re not AI researchers — they’re magicians. Today’s conversation is with one of the finest. Joshua Jay has performed his sleight-of-hand magic all around the world, including on major talk shows and for US presidents, and he’s a total magic nerd, the author of several books about magic, including “How Magicians Think.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he’s not gonna teach us about algorithms. Instead, he’ll teach us to see ourselves the way he sees us, as people whose attention can be commanded and redirected, whose memories can be shifted, and as active participants in our own deception. We also talk about the surprising ways that technology is changing magic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>From Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, this is Life Automated, distributed by KQED. Here’s my conversation with Joshua Jay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, the science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke famously said, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” And I think for a lot of people, sitting down in front of a chatbot for the first time, that was kind of the experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Magic. There was this thing, this machine doing something that we didn’t think that machines could do. It was interacting with us in real time, in our own language, in meaningful ways. So, I wanted to ask you, as an actual magician, somebody who thinks about how emotions like awe and surprise are created, what was your first experience using a chatbot like, and did it in any way feel like a magic trick?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s such a great question, and it’s such a relevant question for me as a magician because we are deliverers of certain emotion, which is what you’re talking about, this awe, this like I don’t even know how this is happening, but it’s happening anyway. You know, Teller said so beautifully that magic is the difference between what you see and what you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, you’re having a conversation with this entity and you know it’s not a person, and yet you’re having this conversation. So, the crisis is always we are deliverers of this feeling of astonishment, and yet by virtue of the fact that we know how all of this is done, we often don’t get that sense of awe, and we don’t get amazed very often.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, the first time that I engaged with AI and was… You know, that first time you take the plunge and you’re just asking, you’re having a conversation with a thing, I was truly astonished. And I felt like, wow, this is probably what it feels like to watch a magic show and just be amazed at everything. And so yeah, I absolutely was totally and utterly amazed and felt like, as we call you guys, “laypeople”, I felt like a layperson. I felt like a muggle. And, it was really fantastic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You just brought up, Teller, of course, of the very famous duo ‘Penn & Teller’, and they have this trick. It’s kind of a classic trick where they’re moving balls in cups as magicians do. We call you guys- magicians, us muggles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Only they use clear cups, so you can actually see what’s happening. And that really kind of reminds me of what you were just talking about, this idea of knowing without knowing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, I find myself thinking so often when I’m performing, like, you know, you do something, and hopefully somebody really likes it and they scream in all the right places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what I’m thinking most of the time is, “Oh, you guys aren’t even seeing the coolest part. If you could see how this works, you would be even more flipped out.” Because sometimes you’re fooled by something that’s so much simpler than you could expect. And very often, and this is such a beautiful topic that it’s its own deep dive- The magician doesn’t fool you; you fool yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there is a difference. You know, some things it is the magician. It’s sleight-of-hand. It’s a gizmo you couldn’t possibly anticipate, a technology you’re not aware of. But often, you fool yourself with assumptions you make and the psychology that’s being used on you. So, it is this really interesting thing that you bring up where as great as magic feels to a muggle, to a layperson, you don’t even see the best part often.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, you bring up this classic Penn and Teller piece, and they have many pieces like this, where they said, “We’re gonna do cups and balls,” but then in the middle of the trick, after they do a classic cups and balls with opaque cups and normal-sized balls, they do it again, but they do it with clear cups.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>As it goes with breaking a few rules of magic. Now, the first rule of magic is you never do the same trick twice. So, we’re good. Second rule of magic is you never tell an audience how a trick is being done. So, we’re gonna tell you exactly how the trick is being done. The third rule of magic is you never let the audience see your secret preparation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And even though if you were to zoom in on the right part, you would see how it works, it’s really a lesson in misdirection because you’re looking at Teller as he’s throwing a ball to the audience, and you’re not watching Penn as he’s placing the cups back down. And in this beautiful chaos of choreography, the lesson, the sort of aesthetic beauty of it, is you’re seeing how it’s done, but you really aren’t seeing how it’s done at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This trick is the ultimate flex. I watched it on YouTube after my conversation with Joshua Jay multiple times.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Eventually, I did see the key move, Teller placing the right ball exactly where it needed to be to make the trick work, in full view of the audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Place it on our hand and show it. Take a third and final ball, pretend to place it in our hand. Pretend to show the cup. We place it in the cup. Then secretly reveal it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> How did I miss it so many times? How did I see without seeing? It really drove home how easily we can be led to believe something false, even when the truth is right in front of us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>…The finish. It’s an American baseball right there. That’s the Penn and Teller Cups and Balls. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Think about this in terms of interacting with a chatbot. It’s like we know that they are machines. We know that we are actively being fooled in some way, and yet we might still feel understood, affirmed, cared for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> You know, the implicit agreement when you see a magic show is you’re saying when you sit down to watch, I know you’re going to try to fool me and I want to be fooled, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you know that there is a deception at hand. You know that there’s going to be things that hopefully if they do their job, the magician does that you will not understand how it works. And I think that the uncomfortability comes in real life in that sometimes there’s not that implicit handshake going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Look, in a magic show, you’re fooled. There’s no way around it. People don’t like that word. Some people do like that word, but call it whatever you like. We can’t soften it. You’re going to be fooled. You’re going to see something you don’t understand and you’re not supposed to understand it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that’s what’s beautiful about it is that’s out in the open. That is made explicit. Whereas with some aspects of AI, with some aspects of technology in general, we don’t know where the human element ends and where the AI begins. And that can be really unsettling for people because they may not feel like, hey, look, when I started this conversation, I didn’t know I wasn’t talking to a human, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Of course, none of this “being fooled” is by accident. Chatbots are generally designed to mimic humans. They refer to themselves in the first person as I or me. They act interested in what we’re saying, asking questions to nudge the conversation forward, and they learn about us, first through extensive training on human language and behavior, and then increasingly through interactions with us, adapting to our personal preferences and detecting our mood shifts in real time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This learning to read human beings, that’s something magicians do too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I say that you’re always watching the magician and that’s how you think of a magic show, but we’re watching you too. And that little shift in perspective is something I don’t think most people think about. You know, during my opening trick, which has been the same for years now, and I can do it, you know, sort of on autopilot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t have to think very deeply. It helps me establish my rhythm. But in my head, what I’m doing is I am plotting the rest of the show based on the hand I’m dealt. Ooh, these people in the back left have a lot of sight line issues. I’m gonna really need to connect with them to make sure they can see and do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or, you know all the waiters are opening this kitchen door in the back of the theater that’s making it really noisy, and so these people are gonna need to be babysat a little more to make sure they’re super engaged. In magic what I’m looking for on stage is somebody who is not going to be afraid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, the first thing I look for before anything else is I’m looking for somebody who is exuding confidence. And a big indicator of confidence is eye contact. You know, it’s so crazy when I say like, “I need someone to help with this next thing,” there are just so many people in an audience who immediately think if they don’t look at me, then somehow, I won’t pick them. And it’s really pronounced when you’re like, as a magician, looking in the audience as you walk through an aisle, left and right. You just see people just totally thinking that they won’t be seen if they’re not… And I’m like, “I can see you even though you’re not looking at me.” But really, you’re looking for somebody who’s got great eye contact and who looks like they’re enjoying the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there’s usually like a little test. So, if I can narrow it down to two or three people who I think, “Oh, this person would be just great on stage,” I might say- “Welcome to the show.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I won’t invite them. I might say, “Welcome to the show, sir. Where are you from?” “I’m from Canton, Ohio.” “Okay. And, what’s this? Why are you, traveling with a suitcase to a magic show?” You know. And if they’re stiff, if they’re giving one-word answers, if they’re sort of like a deer in headlights, maybe I can say, “Well, thanks for coming.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I appreciate you being here. And what about you? What’s your story? Who are you here with?” Right? And you’re just looking for somebody to be like, “Well, I wasn’t even supposed to be here tonight, but my friend Janie, she dragged me to the show and now I’m so glad I came.” Well, there’s a chatty person. That sounds fun. So, I might use that person. And similarly, if I need somebody who is a little bit more submissive in the sense that they’re gonna follow my directions and not give me a hard time-… if I say, “Hold out both hands like this. Put one coin in this hand, one coin…” I don’t want that person switching hands with the coins or you know, when I turn around- trying to throw me off. So, in that case, you might do just the opposite. You might choose somebody who is a little afraid. Sounds a little dark, but maybe you do want somebody who’s a little more easily intimidated so that they will follow your directions exactly as you lay them out and not give you a hard time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, each trick I have kind of the archetype of what I’m looking for and what would be best, and I’m gonna try and fit that puzzle piece with the piece that fits in the gap there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Josh says that this notion of reading people correctly, it can be pretty high stakes. These are dynamic encounters that go in very different directions depending on just what kind of energy you’re getting back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I was doing a show a few months ago, I thought I picked the perfect person. There was a woman, who was just giving great eye contact. She looked to be having a blast. She was even a little bit chatty, which I think in the end was what did me in. You know, she just seemed so confident and comfortable on stage, and it was a big crowd. It was more than 1,000 people. So, I thought she’s gonna be perfect. I noted it, and at the right moment, invited her on stage. What I didn’t realize until she came up was, she was loaded drunk. I mean, she was so drunk she could not follow basic instructions. She couldn’t stop talking. She was disruptive. And in the beginning, that’s funny, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I’m not a comedy magician, so my purpose isn’t just to make people laugh. It’s to show them, I hope, things that are truly amazing, and if they laugh along the way- awesome. So okay immediately I have to reassess and go, we can make some comedy out of this, but the magic is gonna suffer if she can’t be quiet and follow directions and help us navigate to this amazing moment that’s coming up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And she couldn’t. Right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> She couldn’t. And so, you try and limp to the close and just think, “Next time I won’t make this mistake.” But in this case, I had to do the rarest thing of all, which is dismiss somebody. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, my goodness! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And you just say, “Do me a favor, grab your seat and I need you to come up now.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I actually had to do the switch mid-trick, which I very rarely, I can’t remember the last time, I picked someone so wrong that I had to recalibrate like that. But you know, this is what happens when you are on the road 300 days a year. You’re gonna have nightmare nights at the office. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, when I hear this, I think, you know, the exception is what proves the rule. You know, the fact that this happens so rarely suggests that you are quite good at reading the room and reading people in ways that they I mean, yeah, I guess somebody who’s had a dozen cocktails probably knows that they’re going to embarrass themselves on stage. But for the most part, you’re picking up on tells that people might not even be aware that they have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess I’m harping on this because when I think about machines that aren’t just reading our posture or looking for eye contact or are looking at, you know, beginning the data collection process the second we walk into the room. They learn about us for months, years and they’re able to gather a wide range of data about us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, I start wondering, you know, what that starts to look like and I would ask you, are we more manipulable than we realize? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yes, emphatically yes. I think that there are so many insights that are so scary to a magician when you start applying it to real life. Like, there are so many- One of the basic tenets of magic is that if you tell an audience something, it is a tenth as effective if you can find a way to let that audience tell themselves, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So let me give you an example. If I come out, this is like a classic amateur magician’s move. If I come out and I say, “Ladies and gentlemen, a regular deck of cards,” that is wrong for every possible reason. Because if I just said, “Do me a favor, give these a shuffle, and then I want you to take one out that you like and write your name on it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You will never in that interaction question the deck of cards because it’s a deck of cards. I’m handling it like you would handle a deck of cards if you handed it to a friend between rounds of dealing poker, right? Take the deck of cards, shuffle it up, take a card out. You would never think, “Are there 52 in there? Are they all the same shape? Is one shorter than another one? Is there more than one ace of spades in that deck?” You would never ask those questions because I’ve presented it in a casual manner, and I’ve given you a task. But the minute you say, “Ladies and gentlemen, a regulation pack of cards,” instantly you go, “Well, is it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, I didn’t see it. Can I see it? Do you mind if I shuffle? Can I count those cards? Can I hold them up to a light? Can I shuffle and make sure they’re all the same thickness,” right? But if I give you the deck and I say, “Shuffle them up and take out any one that you like,” I’m letting you tell yourself it’s a regular deck because you put your fingers on it, you shuffle it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, you may be shuffling a deck that’s got all sorts of quirky, subtle things wrong with it, but you will be telling yourself it’s a normal deck because it feels right. When I look through to take out a card, nothing looked out of place. And now you’re telling yourself, and that’s a much more effective way to deceive somebody because you’re telling yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Josh says that the best magicians don’t just shape how people experience something in the moment. They can also change what we later remember about a moment. For instance, a magician might appear to drop a coin, and then somehow it vanishes. Cool trick. But the magician doesn’t stop there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And if a minute later I say, “And you watched that coin as it fell from my hand and disintegrated in midair,” well, that’s a really great word, disintegrated, right? And it colors your memory. Maybe I refer to it two or three more times in the show, “And then it just disappeared, and it disintegrated, and when it got to my knee level, it just turned to dust.” And you can have people leaving swearing that they saw a coin vanish down here. And that’s the next frontier of magic is really manipulating memories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> If you were a less ethical person, do you think you could get people to do things against their will? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I mean… I think that the overarching lesson that I’ve, that I’m continually shocked about in magic in this regard is how easily people can be duped into believing things. I mean, it’s so crazy to me that, you know, I do a magic show that is meant to amaze and delight, but in no way is it meant to skirt the line of reality and make people actually believe. You know, there are performers like David Blaine, Uri Geller, and Oz Pearlman, who, you know, people see those performers and sort of go, “So wait, is that a trick or is that person really doing that?” And I don’t have that kind of approach, and still, not sometimes, very often people come up to me after shows and they’ll say really touching but misguided things like, “Hey, can you give me advice on this job I’m about to take? Cause I, you know, that trick you did where you were able to predict the future, I’m just wondering if you…” You know, you just wanna pull them aside and say, “This is pure entertainment. Like, I can’t give you life advice like that. I can’t actually see the future. This is fun.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But you got my passcode off my phone. I’ve never told anybody that in my life.” “Yes, that’s a trick. I predicted your passcode.” Right. “Well, if you can tell my passcode, can you just tell me just a little advice? Should I take this job and move to Phoenix or not?” And it’s like, you know, you see that with certain people, they’re looking for an excuse to believe. They’re looking for it, and the more you say it’s not real, the more they want to believe it is real, and that’s scary stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> My takeaway so far in this conversation, buckle up. We better hope for a rapid learning curve as we adjust to life alongside artificial intelligences that feel real, that have been designed to seem real, but simply aren’t. My worry is that knowing we’re talking to a machine won’t ever be enough. Just like Teller’s baseball, even those rare occasions where we can see what’s happening under the hood won’t stop the illusion, because we want to believe the illusion. Because the illusion doesn’t just come from the machine, it comes from us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These are early innings. I’ll be very curious about how these chatbots change over time and the many ways they are welcomed or inserted into our lives. After the break, a pivot. I ask my guests, how is technology changing magic? And if you’re thinking, “Not that much,” you would be wrong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>You might think that sleight of hand magic hasn’t changed much over the decades. A card trick, cups and balls, these are all pretty analog. Automation shouldn’t have too much of an impact. But the truth is, all performances are interactions between performer and audience. So even when technology doesn’t change the performer, it changes the audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Technology has always had an uneasy relationship to magic, and there are all sorts of tricks that we can’t do anymore for the simple reason that what even 20 years ago people would have gone, “That is the most amazing thing I could imagine you doing.” Now we would go, “Oh, we have an app for that.” I mean, there’s like a great trick where you predict a song that’s playing, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now you couldn’t do that trick cause people would go, “Yes, it’s an app. I had it 15 years ago. It’s called Shazam. You press this button and three seconds later it tells you the album and the song and the link to listen to it.” Like, all the tricks along that genre, they’re just out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You told this story about doing one of your famous dollar bill tricks for somebody, and then they immediately took out their phone and they Googled, you know, how did Josh Jay do this dollar bill trick?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then they, like, just played the video in front of everybody, and you said it was not a great moment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> How do you deal with that? How do you deal with the fact that the answers so many of these tricks, the ability to watch it again and again and again from any angle that someone might have captured, are available to everybody at every moment?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, you’ve hit upon, you know, a really important and sort of topical crisis in our industry, which is that a lot of people are going on YouTube and doing tutorials of tricks that don’t belong to them and classic tricks and really good tricks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The particular dollar bill trick that got Josh is one of those classics that people can now look up on YouTube.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Josh sees two strategies that magicians can use to get around this problem. The first being to avoid the classics altogether. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> But if you’re doing a trick that thousands of other magicians are doing, you’re at great risk that that trick will be searchable and, you know, easily found online. Whereas if I’m doing something totally original, good luck searching for it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re not gonna find that trick because I created that trick and it’s not published and it’s not anywhere to be found in a searchable way. So that’s one way. Another way is magicians have to get really clever at disguising what it looks like. They have to mesh together several methods and several tricks so that somebody looks at it and goes, “You know, I don’t know. He borrowed my house key, and then he bent it, and then it vanished- … and it appeared in a lock across the room.” You know, that’s not a searchable term, whereas changing a $1 bill into $100 bill is easily searchable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And yeah, so at the same time as it is making a lot of parts of your life as a magician more difficult, it also might be raising the rewards to true novelty and creativity and innovation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> That’s how I’m choosing to look at it, and maybe I’m, like, choosing to look at it with rose-tinted glasses because I like that process. But, you know, in my head, the healthiest magic community in the world is one in which everybody’s doing their own material. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we don’t give much attention to bands that only play covers. They play in bars for 30 people. If you write your own music and you become successful at that, you can tour arenas and have a career that is way more outsized than a cover band ever could. We don’t reward comedians who just repeat the jokes of, you know, a smorgasbord of all their favorite comedians. We reward people who come up with original monologues, and we can’t wait to hear the latest Chappelle or Nate Bargatze or Seinfeld hour because we know it’s gonna be their point of view. So, my ultimate ideal in magic, it would be, you know, all magicians doing their own stuff. Now, magic has developed at a much slower pace than comedy and even songwriting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, it takes years to perfect a really great magic trick. So that’s a high bar indeed, but my hope is that this negative will end up being a positive and that magicians will take a cue from this and start really obscuring what they’re doing in such a way that it’s either mostly original or completely original.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, technology is changing magic, but Josh says it won’t be taking over anytime soon. For instance, most magicians who choose to use AI are using it to help them tweak their script a bit, not to design tricks wholesale. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> AI can help you find a moment in history that you would have never turned up that’s the perfect way to theatrically get into a trick on coincidence or a trick on transformation, and now you’ve given it this great context about this amazing thing that happened in Victorian England. And, you know, that’s, I think, a way that AI is really gonna help performers because like so many things, we don’t want AI to dehumanize magic. Magic will be one of the great things left when AI is fully integrated into everything else that people will go to for a truly human experience. I mean, what besides eating and watching movies will be left that isn’t entirely, you know, affected by AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about this. You describe the period from the 1870s to the 1930s as the “Golden Age of Magic”. Yeah. Could we, you know, see a resurgence to a new Golden Age of Magic? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of evidence to say that in a sense we are in another golden age. I mean, take some metrics. Because of TikTok and Instagram and just magic being online generally, and add to that the fact that America’s Got Talent and Fool Us are putting magic in front of millions of people in their homes that didn’t used to be there- More people are watching magic than have ever watched it in history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fact. Not, and it’s not close. It’s not like marginally more. Like, exponentially more people are watching magic than ever have. Another objective fact is that there are now more venues to perform magic than there have ever been at any point in my life or in the previous 50 years. So, I also have emprivated data because I co-own, a magic shop called Vanishing Inc., where we sell magic and we publish books, and I can tell you that we are selling to a larger group of people than magic shops used to sell to. They used to be quite localized, and thanks to the internet, we can now sell all over the world. And the industry itself is growing. You can just feel that there are more people interested in magic every day and not less. So, in those regards, anecdotally, I would say to you, we might be in a golden age and not know it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You describe magic as being a product of its time, and you give this great example of the famous trick of sawing a woman in half being the perfect trick when it emerged after World War I. All of a sudden it was hitting an audience that was maybe a little bit more desensitized to violence, more open to women, playing different roles in society, including one where presumably they get chopped in half. And I wanna ask you, what would be the perfect trick for 2026? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Oh. Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, that’s a really tough question. I mean, I would say to zoom out for a second and buy myself a minute to think, I would say that the greatest magic trick, and not just in 2026, ever, is always the trick that is perfect for the situation you’re in at that moment, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I talk in the book, you might remember, about the ham sandwich theory, and for those readers who haven’t read my book, like, this is such a great illustration of what magic can be at its ultimate fullest expression, which is that if I reach up behind your ear right now, Jessica, and pull out a ham sandwich from nowhere, and you don’t know how it’s done, you’re gonna look at me and go, “That was random,” because it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s totally random. It’s not interesting. It’s not logical. I just pulled a ham sandwich out. It’s arbitrary. But if instead you said to me, “Gosh, Josh, I am starving. I’m just… I’m really in the mood for a ham sandwich. Is that weird to say?” And I then went, “Oh, yeah?” And now I pull a ham sandwich out of your ear- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I have fulfilled a need. I have responded to a need you created, and now that magic is everything to you. It’s personal. It felt directly tailored to something you had. It fulfilled a need, hunger that you were feeling at that moment. So, whatever the answer is to your question, it would have to be something that’s specific to an audience in 2026.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I want to push Josh here. What does the perfect trick look like in 2026 with technology constantly shifting the boundaries between that’s awesome and yeah, that’s an app? What happens to an art form so cognizant of the limits of human cognition when everyone carries around a device that seems to know everything and never forget?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, maybe it calls attention to that very device. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I always see things through the lens of what I’m working on, and I’m working on a trick where we turn off all the lights in the theater, which is instantly and immediately fascinating to me because it gets to be this change of scenery, right? And I have everybody take out their cell phones and put their light on. So, you get that little concert vibe going where they’re moving their light around, and it looks like twinkling stars in this huge theater, right? And all these people are here. And I’m working on a trick where they are whittled down. So, through a series of choices that the audience makes, I would say, “Okay, if you were born in September, stay standing with your light on. Everybody else sit down, turn your phone off.” And it goes from 1,000 lights to… 30 lights. And you whittle them down all the way until you get one person with a light, and then you predict that person’s phone number, which is the thing that they’re holding- the whole time, and you’re right there, and how could you have known it would be them, and the choices that were made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the very light they’re holding has the phone number, and that’s what I’m working on, and that’s what I’ll call the ultimate trick in 2026 cause I haven’t fully figured out how I’m doing it yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh my gosh. Well, I just love hearing you talk about this knowing that you don’t even fully know how you’re going to do it yet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like, it seems like as a creator, you think about how do I want the audience to feel, what should they be paying attention to, what should they be thinking about, and then eventually you get back to the mechanism of how you pull this all off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yes. It’s exactly that. And that was a really important shift for me is not to become obsessed with method, not to get bogged down by well, that would be great, but I don’t know how to do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that all my best things have come out of me sort of going I’m not gonna think about how this could be done. I just wanna play out in my mind what it would look like if I could do it. And then I need to figure out a way to do it. And, you know, you fall on your face a lot, and you realize, like, well, I can’t do that, but I could do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you might fall short of the ideal, but at least you’re thinking… in the minds of the audience, and I think that’s a really good place to start. You know, empathy is a really important tool for a magician, and I imagine it’s probably a huge focus of everybody who’s helping to design AI is to think empathically, to think like your audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, the first thing you have to do as a magician is get out of your own head and to try to get into the head of the people you’re performing for. What do they wanna see? What would they think if you did this? How would they react if you did this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Empathy as one of the ultimate superpowers? Yeah, I buy that. Human creators of all stripes have long recognized its power. Magicians like Joshua Jay rely on empathy to create experiences that delight, and stun, and fill a need. Engineers rely on empathy to imagine how users will engage with confusing or intimidating tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What’s different is that now we have machines that empathize, too, or at least convincingly perform empathy. Which brings us right back to where we started, me going to my chatbot three days later to report back on how that email landed, the email we carefully crafted together. As that line between what we perceive to be reality versus magic continues to blur before our eyes, I’m glad to have the occasional magician as a tour guide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, and Leila Mohammed. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When people go to a magic show, they expect to be fooled. That’s part of the fun. And magician \u003ca href=\"https://www.joshuajay.com/\">Joshua Jay\u003c/a> says much of the magician’s work is helping people fool themselves. Our brains are hardwired to fill in gaps, predict outcomes, and take cognitive shortcuts to process the overwhelming amount of information around us. When interacting with AI chatbots, we may similarly fool ourselves into believing we’re interacting with a human. But unlike at a magic show, it’s not always clear when the trick is over. Plus: how AI is changing magic.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a rapidly automating world. I’m Jess Love. I’ve been known, in moments of excitement or confusion or overwhelm, to turn to a chatbot, just to share, “Hey, this is what I’m thinking I’ll do next. Here’s how I want to approach this situation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a rapidly automating world. I’m Jess Love. I’ve been known, in moments of excitement or confusion or overwhelm, to turn to a chatbot, just to share, “Hey, this is what I’m thinking I’ll do next. Here’s how I want to approach this situation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’ll even occasionally return to provide an update. Maybe this isn’t ideal. I know how sycophantic chatbots can be, telling me how thoughtful and clever my plans are unless I sternly direct them to act like dream-crushing jerks. But I can’t deny that the experience is pleasant. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’ll even occasionally return to provide an update. Maybe this isn’t ideal. I know how sycophantic chatbots can be, telling me how thoughtful and clever my plans are unless I sternly direct them to act like dream-crushing jerks. But I can’t deny that the experience is pleasant. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like if your diary could write back. And yes, on some level, I know this is a machine trained to keep me engaging with it, and yet don’t I still feel a little validated when that response comes back? A little heard? There is no precedent for this. In every other moment in history, feeling like you’re talking back and forth with a real person has meant you’re connecting with a real person, someone who understands you, someone offering you their finite attention.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like if your diary could write back. And yes, on some level, I know this is a machine trained to keep me engaging with it, and yet don’t I still feel a little validated when that response comes back? A little heard? There is no precedent for this. In every other moment in history, feeling like you’re talking back and forth with a real person has meant you’re connecting with a real person, someone who understands you, someone offering you their finite attention.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we’ve evolved to take pleasure in these interactions, to seek them out, because that’s kept our species connected and alive. But with chatbots, this ancient link between the appearance of a mind and an actual mind no longer holds, and it’s really hard to know what to make of that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we’ve evolved to take pleasure in these interactions, to seek them out, because that’s kept our species connected and alive. But with chatbots, this ancient link between the appearance of a mind and an actual mind no longer holds, and it’s really hard to know what to make of that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are people who obsess over this gap between what we intellectually know to be true and what we experience as real. Only they’re not AI researchers — they’re magicians. Today’s conversation is with one of the finest. Joshua Jay has performed his sleight-of-hand magic all around the world, including on major talk shows and for US presidents, and he’s a total magic nerd, the author of several books about magic, including “How Magicians Think.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are people who obsess over this gap between what we intellectually know to be true and what we experience as real. Only they’re not AI researchers — they’re magicians. Today’s conversation is with one of the finest. Joshua Jay has performed his sleight-of-hand magic all around the world, including on major talk shows and for US presidents, and he’s a total magic nerd, the author of several books about magic, including “How Magicians Think.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he’s not gonna teach us about algorithms. Instead, he’ll teach us to see ourselves the way he sees us, as people whose attention can be commanded and redirected, whose memories can be shifted, and as active participants in our own deception. We also talk about the surprising ways that technology is changing magic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he’s not gonna teach us about algorithms. Instead, he’ll teach us to see ourselves the way he sees us, as people whose attention can be commanded and redirected, whose memories can be shifted, and as active participants in our own deception. We also talk about the surprising ways that technology is changing magic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>From Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, this is Life Automated, distributed by KQED. Here’s my conversation with Joshua Jay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, the science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke famously said, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” And I think for a lot of people, sitting down in front of a chatbot for the first time, that was kind of the experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, the science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke famously said, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” And I think for a lot of people, sitting down in front of a chatbot for the first time, that was kind of the experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Magic. There was this thing, this machine doing something that we didn’t think that machines could do. It was interacting with us in real time, in our own language, in meaningful ways. So, I wanted to ask you, as an actual magician, somebody who thinks about how emotions like awe and surprise are created, what was your first experience using a chatbot like, and did it in any way feel like a magic trick?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s such a great question, and it’s such a relevant question for me as a magician because we are deliverers of certain emotion, which is what you’re talking about, this awe, this like I don’t even know how this is happening, but it’s happening anyway. You know, Teller said so beautifully that magic is the difference between what you see and what you know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s such a great question, and it’s such a relevant question for me as a magician because we are deliverers of certain emotion, which is what you’re talking about, this awe, this like I don’t even know how this is happening, but it’s happening anyway. You know, Teller said so beautifully that magic is the difference between what you see and what you know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, you’re having a conversation with this entity and you know it’s not a person, and yet you’re having this conversation. So, the crisis is always we are deliverers of this feeling of astonishment, and yet by virtue of the fact that we know how all of this is done, we often don’t get that sense of awe, and we don’t get amazed very often.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, you’re having a conversation with this entity and you know it’s not a person, and yet you’re having this conversation. So, the crisis is always we are deliverers of this feeling of astonishment, and yet by virtue of the fact that we know how all of this is done, we often don’t get that sense of awe, and we don’t get amazed very often.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, the first time that I engaged with AI and was… You know, that first time you take the plunge and you’re just asking, you’re having a conversation with a thing, I was truly astonished. And I felt like, wow, this is probably what it feels like to watch a magic show and just be amazed at everything. And so yeah, I absolutely was totally and utterly amazed and felt like, as we call you guys, “laypeople”, I felt like a layperson. I felt like a muggle. And, it was really fantastic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, the first time that I engaged with AI and was… You know, that first time you take the plunge and you’re just asking, you’re having a conversation with a thing, I was truly astonished. And I felt like, wow, this is probably what it feels like to watch a magic show and just be amazed at everything. And so yeah, I absolutely was totally and utterly amazed and felt like, as we call you guys, “laypeople”, I felt like a layperson. I felt like a muggle. And, it was really fantastic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You just brought up, Teller, of course, of the very famous duo ‘Penn & Teller’, and they have this trick. It’s kind of a classic trick where they’re moving balls in cups as magicians do. We call you guys- magicians, us muggles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You just brought up, Teller, of course, of the very famous duo ‘Penn & Teller’, and they have this trick. It’s kind of a classic trick where they’re moving balls in cups as magicians do. We call you guys- magicians, us muggles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Only they use clear cups, so you can actually see what’s happening. And that really kind of reminds me of what you were just talking about, this idea of knowing without knowing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, I find myself thinking so often when I’m performing, like, you know, you do something, and hopefully somebody really likes it and they scream in all the right places.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, I find myself thinking so often when I’m performing, like, you know, you do something, and hopefully somebody really likes it and they scream in all the right places.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But what I’m thinking most of the time is, “Oh, you guys aren’t even seeing the coolest part. If you could see how this works, you would be even more flipped out.” Because sometimes you’re fooled by something that’s so much simpler than you could expect. And very often, and this is such a beautiful topic that it’s its own deep dive- The magician doesn’t fool you; you fool yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But what I’m thinking most of the time is, “Oh, you guys aren’t even seeing the coolest part. If you could see how this works, you would be even more flipped out.” Because sometimes you’re fooled by something that’s so much simpler than you could expect. And very often, and this is such a beautiful topic that it’s its own deep dive- The magician doesn’t fool you; you fool yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there is a difference. You know, some things it is the magician. It’s sleight-of-hand. It’s a gizmo you couldn’t possibly anticipate, a technology you’re not aware of. But often, you fool yourself with assumptions you make and the psychology that’s being used on you. So, it is this really interesting thing that you bring up where as great as magic feels to a muggle, to a layperson, you don’t even see the best part often.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there is a difference. You know, some things it is the magician. It’s sleight-of-hand. It’s a gizmo you couldn’t possibly anticipate, a technology you’re not aware of. But often, you fool yourself with assumptions you make and the psychology that’s being used on you. So, it is this really interesting thing that you bring up where as great as magic feels to a muggle, to a layperson, you don’t even see the best part often.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, you bring up this classic Penn and Teller piece, and they have many pieces like this, where they said, “We’re gonna do cups and balls,” but then in the middle of the trick, after they do a classic cups and balls with opaque cups and normal-sized balls, they do it again, but they do it with clear cups.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, you bring up this classic Penn and Teller piece, and they have many pieces like this, where they said, “We’re gonna do cups and balls,” but then in the middle of the trick, after they do a classic cups and balls with opaque cups and normal-sized balls, they do it again, but they do it with clear cups.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>As it goes with breaking a few rules of magic. Now, the first rule of magic is you never do the same trick twice. So, we’re good. Second rule of magic is you never tell an audience how a trick is being done. So, we’re gonna tell you exactly how the trick is being done. The third rule of magic is you never let the audience see your secret preparation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>As it goes with breaking a few rules of magic. Now, the first rule of magic is you never do the same trick twice. So, we’re good. Second rule of magic is you never tell an audience how a trick is being done. So, we’re gonna tell you exactly how the trick is being done. The third rule of magic is you never let the audience see your secret preparation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And even though if you were to zoom in on the right part, you would see how it works, it’s really a lesson in misdirection because you’re looking at Teller as he’s throwing a ball to the audience, and you’re not watching Penn as he’s placing the cups back down. And in this beautiful chaos of choreography, the lesson, the sort of aesthetic beauty of it, is you’re seeing how it’s done, but you really aren’t seeing how it’s done at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And even though if you were to zoom in on the right part, you would see how it works, it’s really a lesson in misdirection because you’re looking at Teller as he’s throwing a ball to the audience, and you’re not watching Penn as he’s placing the cups back down. And in this beautiful chaos of choreography, the lesson, the sort of aesthetic beauty of it, is you’re seeing how it’s done, but you really aren’t seeing how it’s done at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This trick is the ultimate flex. I watched it on YouTube after my conversation with Joshua Jay multiple times.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This trick is the ultimate flex. I watched it on YouTube after my conversation with Joshua Jay multiple times.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Eventually, I did see the key move, Teller placing the right ball exactly where it needed to be to make the trick work, in full view of the audience. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Eventually, I did see the key move, Teller placing the right ball exactly where it needed to be to make the trick work, in full view of the audience. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Place it on our hand and show it. Take a third and final ball, pretend to place it in our hand. Pretend to show the cup. We place it in the cup. Then secretly reveal it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Place it on our hand and show it. Take a third and final ball, pretend to place it in our hand. Pretend to show the cup. We place it in the cup. Then secretly reveal it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> How did I miss it so many times? How did I see without seeing? It really drove home how easily we can be led to believe something false, even when the truth is right in front of us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> How did I miss it so many times? How did I see without seeing? It really drove home how easily we can be led to believe something false, even when the truth is right in front of us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>…The finish. It’s an American baseball right there. That’s the Penn and Teller Cups and Balls. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>…The finish. It’s an American baseball right there. That’s the Penn and Teller Cups and Balls. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Think about this in terms of interacting with a chatbot. It’s like we know that they are machines. We know that we are actively being fooled in some way, and yet we might still feel understood, affirmed, cared for. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Think about this in terms of interacting with a chatbot. It’s like we know that they are machines. We know that we are actively being fooled in some way, and yet we might still feel understood, affirmed, cared for. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> You know, the implicit agreement when you see a magic show is you’re saying when you sit down to watch, I know you’re going to try to fool me and I want to be fooled, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> You know, the implicit agreement when you see a magic show is you’re saying when you sit down to watch, I know you’re going to try to fool me and I want to be fooled, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, you know that there is a deception at hand. You know that there’s going to be things that hopefully if they do their job, the magician does that you will not understand how it works. And I think that the uncomfortability comes in real life in that sometimes there’s not that implicit handshake going on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, you know that there is a deception at hand. You know that there’s going to be things that hopefully if they do their job, the magician does that you will not understand how it works. And I think that the uncomfortability comes in real life in that sometimes there’s not that implicit handshake going on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Look, in a magic show, you’re fooled. There’s no way around it. People don’t like that word. Some people do like that word, but call it whatever you like. We can’t soften it. You’re going to be fooled. You’re going to see something you don’t understand and you’re not supposed to understand it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Look, in a magic show, you’re fooled. There’s no way around it. People don’t like that word. Some people do like that word, but call it whatever you like. We can’t soften it. You’re going to be fooled. You’re going to see something you don’t understand and you’re not supposed to understand it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that’s what’s beautiful about it is that’s out in the open. That is made explicit. Whereas with some aspects of AI, with some aspects of technology in general, we don’t know where the human element ends and where the AI begins. And that can be really unsettling for people because they may not feel like, hey, look, when I started this conversation, I didn’t know I wasn’t talking to a human, you know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that’s what’s beautiful about it is that’s out in the open. That is made explicit. Whereas with some aspects of AI, with some aspects of technology in general, we don’t know where the human element ends and where the AI begins. And that can be really unsettling for people because they may not feel like, hey, look, when I started this conversation, I didn’t know I wasn’t talking to a human, you know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Of course, none of this “being fooled” is by accident. Chatbots are generally designed to mimic humans. They refer to themselves in the first person as I or me. They act interested in what we’re saying, asking questions to nudge the conversation forward, and they learn about us, first through extensive training on human language and behavior, and then increasingly through interactions with us, adapting to our personal preferences and detecting our mood shifts in real time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Of course, none of this “being fooled” is by accident. Chatbots are generally designed to mimic humans. They refer to themselves in the first person as I or me. They act interested in what we’re saying, asking questions to nudge the conversation forward, and they learn about us, first through extensive training on human language and behavior, and then increasingly through interactions with us, adapting to our personal preferences and detecting our mood shifts in real time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This learning to read human beings, that’s something magicians do too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This learning to read human beings, that’s something magicians do too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I say that you’re always watching the magician and that’s how you think of a magic show, but we’re watching you too. And that little shift in perspective is something I don’t think most people think about. You know, during my opening trick, which has been the same for years now, and I can do it, you know, sort of on autopilot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I say that you’re always watching the magician and that’s how you think of a magic show, but we’re watching you too. And that little shift in perspective is something I don’t think most people think about. You know, during my opening trick, which has been the same for years now, and I can do it, you know, sort of on autopilot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I don’t have to think very deeply. It helps me establish my rhythm. But in my head, what I’m doing is I am plotting the rest of the show based on the hand I’m dealt. Ooh, these people in the back left have a lot of sight line issues. I’m gonna really need to connect with them to make sure they can see and do that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I don’t have to think very deeply. It helps me establish my rhythm. But in my head, what I’m doing is I am plotting the rest of the show based on the hand I’m dealt. Ooh, these people in the back left have a lot of sight line issues. I’m gonna really need to connect with them to make sure they can see and do that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or, you know all the waiters are opening this kitchen door in the back of the theater that’s making it really noisy, and so these people are gonna need to be babysat a little more to make sure they’re super engaged. In magic what I’m looking for on stage is somebody who is not going to be afraid.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or, you know all the waiters are opening this kitchen door in the back of the theater that’s making it really noisy, and so these people are gonna need to be babysat a little more to make sure they’re super engaged. In magic what I’m looking for on stage is somebody who is not going to be afraid.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, the first thing I look for before anything else is I’m looking for somebody who is exuding confidence. And a big indicator of confidence is eye contact. You know, it’s so crazy when I say like, “I need someone to help with this next thing,” there are just so many people in an audience who immediately think if they don’t look at me, then somehow, I won’t pick them. And it’s really pronounced when you’re like, as a magician, looking in the audience as you walk through an aisle, left and right. You just see people just totally thinking that they won’t be seen if they’re not… And I’m like, “I can see you even though you’re not looking at me.” But really, you’re looking for somebody who’s got great eye contact and who looks like they’re enjoying the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, the first thing I look for before anything else is I’m looking for somebody who is exuding confidence. And a big indicator of confidence is eye contact. You know, it’s so crazy when I say like, “I need someone to help with this next thing,” there are just so many people in an audience who immediately think if they don’t look at me, then somehow, I won’t pick them. And it’s really pronounced when you’re like, as a magician, looking in the audience as you walk through an aisle, left and right. You just see people just totally thinking that they won’t be seen if they’re not… And I’m like, “I can see you even though you’re not looking at me.” But really, you’re looking for somebody who’s got great eye contact and who looks like they’re enjoying the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there’s usually like a little test. So, if I can narrow it down to two or three people who I think, “Oh, this person would be just great on stage,” I might say- “Welcome to the show.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there’s usually like a little test. So, if I can narrow it down to two or three people who I think, “Oh, this person would be just great on stage,” I might say- “Welcome to the show.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I won’t invite them. I might say, “Welcome to the show, sir. Where are you from?” “I’m from Canton, Ohio.” “Okay. And, what’s this? Why are you, traveling with a suitcase to a magic show?” You know. And if they’re stiff, if they’re giving one-word answers, if they’re sort of like a deer in headlights, maybe I can say, “Well, thanks for coming.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I won’t invite them. I might say, “Welcome to the show, sir. Where are you from?” “I’m from Canton, Ohio.” “Okay. And, what’s this? Why are you, traveling with a suitcase to a magic show?” You know. And if they’re stiff, if they’re giving one-word answers, if they’re sort of like a deer in headlights, maybe I can say, “Well, thanks for coming.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I appreciate you being here. And what about you? What’s your story? Who are you here with?” Right? And you’re just looking for somebody to be like, “Well, I wasn’t even supposed to be here tonight, but my friend Janie, she dragged me to the show and now I’m so glad I came.” Well, there’s a chatty person. That sounds fun. So, I might use that person. And similarly, if I need somebody who is a little bit more submissive in the sense that they’re gonna follow my directions and not give me a hard time-… if I say, “Hold out both hands like this. Put one coin in this hand, one coin…” I don’t want that person switching hands with the coins or you know, when I turn around- trying to throw me off. So, in that case, you might do just the opposite. You might choose somebody who is a little afraid. Sounds a little dark, but maybe you do want somebody who’s a little more easily intimidated so that they will follow your directions exactly as you lay them out and not give you a hard time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I appreciate you being here. And what about you? What’s your story? Who are you here with?” Right? And you’re just looking for somebody to be like, “Well, I wasn’t even supposed to be here tonight, but my friend Janie, she dragged me to the show and now I’m so glad I came.” Well, there’s a chatty person. That sounds fun. So, I might use that person. And similarly, if I need somebody who is a little bit more submissive in the sense that they’re gonna follow my directions and not give me a hard time-… if I say, “Hold out both hands like this. Put one coin in this hand, one coin…” I don’t want that person switching hands with the coins or you know, when I turn around- trying to throw me off. So, in that case, you might do just the opposite. You might choose somebody who is a little afraid. Sounds a little dark, but maybe you do want somebody who’s a little more easily intimidated so that they will follow your directions exactly as you lay them out and not give you a hard time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, each trick I have kind of the archetype of what I’m looking for and what would be best, and I’m gonna try and fit that puzzle piece with the piece that fits in the gap there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, each trick I have kind of the archetype of what I’m looking for and what would be best, and I’m gonna try and fit that puzzle piece with the piece that fits in the gap there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Josh says that this notion of reading people correctly, it can be pretty high stakes. These are dynamic encounters that go in very different directions depending on just what kind of energy you’re getting back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Josh says that this notion of reading people correctly, it can be pretty high stakes. These are dynamic encounters that go in very different directions depending on just what kind of energy you’re getting back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I was doing a show a few months ago, I thought I picked the perfect person. There was a woman, who was just giving great eye contact. She looked to be having a blast. She was even a little bit chatty, which I think in the end was what did me in. You know, she just seemed so confident and comfortable on stage, and it was a big crowd. It was more than 1,000 people. So, I thought she’s gonna be perfect. I noted it, and at the right moment, invited her on stage. What I didn’t realize until she came up was, she was loaded drunk. I mean, she was so drunk she could not follow basic instructions. She couldn’t stop talking. She was disruptive. And in the beginning, that’s funny, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I was doing a show a few months ago, I thought I picked the perfect person. There was a woman, who was just giving great eye contact. She looked to be having a blast. She was even a little bit chatty, which I think in the end was what did me in. You know, she just seemed so confident and comfortable on stage, and it was a big crowd. It was more than 1,000 people. So, I thought she’s gonna be perfect. I noted it, and at the right moment, invited her on stage. What I didn’t realize until she came up was, she was loaded drunk. I mean, she was so drunk she could not follow basic instructions. She couldn’t stop talking. She was disruptive. And in the beginning, that’s funny, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I’m not a comedy magician, so my purpose isn’t just to make people laugh. It’s to show them, I hope, things that are truly amazing, and if they laugh along the way- awesome. So okay immediately I have to reassess and go, we can make some comedy out of this, but the magic is gonna suffer if she can’t be quiet and follow directions and help us navigate to this amazing moment that’s coming up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I’m not a comedy magician, so my purpose isn’t just to make people laugh. It’s to show them, I hope, things that are truly amazing, and if they laugh along the way- awesome. So okay immediately I have to reassess and go, we can make some comedy out of this, but the magic is gonna suffer if she can’t be quiet and follow directions and help us navigate to this amazing moment that’s coming up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And she couldn’t. Right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And she couldn’t. Right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> She couldn’t. And so, you try and limp to the close and just think, “Next time I won’t make this mistake.” But in this case, I had to do the rarest thing of all, which is dismiss somebody. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> She couldn’t. And so, you try and limp to the close and just think, “Next time I won’t make this mistake.” But in this case, I had to do the rarest thing of all, which is dismiss somebody. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, my goodness! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, my goodness! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And you just say, “Do me a favor, grab your seat and I need you to come up now.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And you just say, “Do me a favor, grab your seat and I need you to come up now.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I actually had to do the switch mid-trick, which I very rarely, I can’t remember the last time, I picked someone so wrong that I had to recalibrate like that. But you know, this is what happens when you are on the road 300 days a year. You’re gonna have nightmare nights at the office. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I actually had to do the switch mid-trick, which I very rarely, I can’t remember the last time, I picked someone so wrong that I had to recalibrate like that. But you know, this is what happens when you are on the road 300 days a year. You’re gonna have nightmare nights at the office. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, when I hear this, I think, you know, the exception is what proves the rule. You know, the fact that this happens so rarely suggests that you are quite good at reading the room and reading people in ways that they I mean, yeah, I guess somebody who’s had a dozen cocktails probably knows that they’re going to embarrass themselves on stage. But for the most part, you’re picking up on tells that people might not even be aware that they have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, when I hear this, I think, you know, the exception is what proves the rule. You know, the fact that this happens so rarely suggests that you are quite good at reading the room and reading people in ways that they I mean, yeah, I guess somebody who’s had a dozen cocktails probably knows that they’re going to embarrass themselves on stage. But for the most part, you’re picking up on tells that people might not even be aware that they have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I guess I’m harping on this because when I think about machines that aren’t just reading our posture or looking for eye contact or are looking at, you know, beginning the data collection process the second we walk into the room. They learn about us for months, years and they’re able to gather a wide range of data about us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I guess I’m harping on this because when I think about machines that aren’t just reading our posture or looking for eye contact or are looking at, you know, beginning the data collection process the second we walk into the room. They learn about us for months, years and they’re able to gather a wide range of data about us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, I start wondering, you know, what that starts to look like and I would ask you, are we more manipulable than we realize? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, I start wondering, you know, what that starts to look like and I would ask you, are we more manipulable than we realize? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yes, emphatically yes. I think that there are so many insights that are so scary to a magician when you start applying it to real life. Like, there are so many- One of the basic tenets of magic is that if you tell an audience something, it is a tenth as effective if you can find a way to let that audience tell themselves, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yes, emphatically yes. I think that there are so many insights that are so scary to a magician when you start applying it to real life. Like, there are so many- One of the basic tenets of magic is that if you tell an audience something, it is a tenth as effective if you can find a way to let that audience tell themselves, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So let me give you an example. If I come out, this is like a classic amateur magician’s move. If I come out and I say, “Ladies and gentlemen, a regular deck of cards,” that is wrong for every possible reason. Because if I just said, “Do me a favor, give these a shuffle, and then I want you to take one out that you like and write your name on it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So let me give you an example. If I come out, this is like a classic amateur magician’s move. If I come out and I say, “Ladies and gentlemen, a regular deck of cards,” that is wrong for every possible reason. Because if I just said, “Do me a favor, give these a shuffle, and then I want you to take one out that you like and write your name on it.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You will never in that interaction question the deck of cards because it’s a deck of cards. I’m handling it like you would handle a deck of cards if you handed it to a friend between rounds of dealing poker, right? Take the deck of cards, shuffle it up, take a card out. You would never think, “Are there 52 in there? Are they all the same shape? Is one shorter than another one? Is there more than one ace of spades in that deck?” You would never ask those questions because I’ve presented it in a casual manner, and I’ve given you a task. But the minute you say, “Ladies and gentlemen, a regulation pack of cards,” instantly you go, “Well, is it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You will never in that interaction question the deck of cards because it’s a deck of cards. I’m handling it like you would handle a deck of cards if you handed it to a friend between rounds of dealing poker, right? Take the deck of cards, shuffle it up, take a card out. You would never think, “Are there 52 in there? Are they all the same shape? Is one shorter than another one? Is there more than one ace of spades in that deck?” You would never ask those questions because I’ve presented it in a casual manner, and I’ve given you a task. But the minute you say, “Ladies and gentlemen, a regulation pack of cards,” instantly you go, “Well, is it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, I didn’t see it. Can I see it? Do you mind if I shuffle? Can I count those cards? Can I hold them up to a light? Can I shuffle and make sure they’re all the same thickness,” right? But if I give you the deck and I say, “Shuffle them up and take out any one that you like,” I’m letting you tell yourself it’s a regular deck because you put your fingers on it, you shuffle it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Well, I didn’t see it. Can I see it? Do you mind if I shuffle? Can I count those cards? Can I hold them up to a light? Can I shuffle and make sure they’re all the same thickness,” right? But if I give you the deck and I say, “Shuffle them up and take out any one that you like,” I’m letting you tell yourself it’s a regular deck because you put your fingers on it, you shuffle it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, you may be shuffling a deck that’s got all sorts of quirky, subtle things wrong with it, but you will be telling yourself it’s a normal deck because it feels right. When I look through to take out a card, nothing looked out of place. And now you’re telling yourself, and that’s a much more effective way to deceive somebody because you’re telling yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, you may be shuffling a deck that’s got all sorts of quirky, subtle things wrong with it, but you will be telling yourself it’s a normal deck because it feels right. When I look through to take out a card, nothing looked out of place. And now you’re telling yourself, and that’s a much more effective way to deceive somebody because you’re telling yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Josh says that the best magicians don’t just shape how people experience something in the moment. They can also change what we later remember about a moment. For instance, a magician might appear to drop a coin, and then somehow it vanishes. Cool trick. But the magician doesn’t stop there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Josh says that the best magicians don’t just shape how people experience something in the moment. They can also change what we later remember about a moment. For instance, a magician might appear to drop a coin, and then somehow it vanishes. Cool trick. But the magician doesn’t stop there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And if a minute later I say, “And you watched that coin as it fell from my hand and disintegrated in midair,” well, that’s a really great word, disintegrated, right? And it colors your memory. Maybe I refer to it two or three more times in the show, “And then it just disappeared, and it disintegrated, and when it got to my knee level, it just turned to dust.” And you can have people leaving swearing that they saw a coin vanish down here. And that’s the next frontier of magic is really manipulating memories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And if a minute later I say, “And you watched that coin as it fell from my hand and disintegrated in midair,” well, that’s a really great word, disintegrated, right? And it colors your memory. Maybe I refer to it two or three more times in the show, “And then it just disappeared, and it disintegrated, and when it got to my knee level, it just turned to dust.” And you can have people leaving swearing that they saw a coin vanish down here. And that’s the next frontier of magic is really manipulating memories.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> If you were a less ethical person, do you think you could get people to do things against their will? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> If you were a less ethical person, do you think you could get people to do things against their will? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I mean… I think that the overarching lesson that I’ve, that I’m continually shocked about in magic in this regard is how easily people can be duped into believing things. I mean, it’s so crazy to me that, you know, I do a magic show that is meant to amaze and delight, but in no way is it meant to skirt the line of reality and make people actually believe. You know, there are performers like David Blaine, Uri Geller, and Oz Pearlman, who, you know, people see those performers and sort of go, “So wait, is that a trick or is that person really doing that?” And I don’t have that kind of approach, and still, not sometimes, very often people come up to me after shows and they’ll say really touching but misguided things like, “Hey, can you give me advice on this job I’m about to take? Cause I, you know, that trick you did where you were able to predict the future, I’m just wondering if you…” You know, you just wanna pull them aside and say, “This is pure entertainment. Like, I can’t give you life advice like that. I can’t actually see the future. This is fun.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I mean… I think that the overarching lesson that I’ve, that I’m continually shocked about in magic in this regard is how easily people can be duped into believing things. I mean, it’s so crazy to me that, you know, I do a magic show that is meant to amaze and delight, but in no way is it meant to skirt the line of reality and make people actually believe. You know, there are performers like David Blaine, Uri Geller, and Oz Pearlman, who, you know, people see those performers and sort of go, “So wait, is that a trick or is that person really doing that?” And I don’t have that kind of approach, and still, not sometimes, very often people come up to me after shows and they’ll say really touching but misguided things like, “Hey, can you give me advice on this job I’m about to take? Cause I, you know, that trick you did where you were able to predict the future, I’m just wondering if you…” You know, you just wanna pull them aside and say, “This is pure entertainment. Like, I can’t give you life advice like that. I can’t actually see the future. This is fun.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“But you got my passcode off my phone. I’ve never told anybody that in my life.” “Yes, that’s a trick. I predicted your passcode.” Right. “Well, if you can tell my passcode, can you just tell me just a little advice? Should I take this job and move to Phoenix or not?” And it’s like, you know, you see that with certain people, they’re looking for an excuse to believe. They’re looking for it, and the more you say it’s not real, the more they want to believe it is real, and that’s scary stuff.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“But you got my passcode off my phone. I’ve never told anybody that in my life.” “Yes, that’s a trick. I predicted your passcode.” Right. “Well, if you can tell my passcode, can you just tell me just a little advice? Should I take this job and move to Phoenix or not?” And it’s like, you know, you see that with certain people, they’re looking for an excuse to believe. They’re looking for it, and the more you say it’s not real, the more they want to believe it is real, and that’s scary stuff.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> My takeaway so far in this conversation, buckle up. We better hope for a rapid learning curve as we adjust to life alongside artificial intelligences that feel real, that have been designed to seem real, but simply aren’t. My worry is that knowing we’re talking to a machine won’t ever be enough. Just like Teller’s baseball, even those rare occasions where we can see what’s happening under the hood won’t stop the illusion, because we want to believe the illusion. Because the illusion doesn’t just come from the machine, it comes from us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> My takeaway so far in this conversation, buckle up. We better hope for a rapid learning curve as we adjust to life alongside artificial intelligences that feel real, that have been designed to seem real, but simply aren’t. My worry is that knowing we’re talking to a machine won’t ever be enough. Just like Teller’s baseball, even those rare occasions where we can see what’s happening under the hood won’t stop the illusion, because we want to believe the illusion. Because the illusion doesn’t just come from the machine, it comes from us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>These are early innings. I’ll be very curious about how these chatbots change over time and the many ways they are welcomed or inserted into our lives. After the break, a pivot. I ask my guests, how is technology changing magic? And if you’re thinking, “Not that much,” you would be wrong.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>These are early innings. I’ll be very curious about how these chatbots change over time and the many ways they are welcomed or inserted into our lives. After the break, a pivot. I ask my guests, how is technology changing magic? And if you’re thinking, “Not that much,” you would be wrong.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>You might think that sleight of hand magic hasn’t changed much over the decades. A card trick, cups and balls, these are all pretty analog. Automation shouldn’t have too much of an impact. But the truth is, all performances are interactions between performer and audience. So even when technology doesn’t change the performer, it changes the audience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>You might think that sleight of hand magic hasn’t changed much over the decades. A card trick, cups and balls, these are all pretty analog. Automation shouldn’t have too much of an impact. But the truth is, all performances are interactions between performer and audience. So even when technology doesn’t change the performer, it changes the audience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Technology has always had an uneasy relationship to magic, and there are all sorts of tricks that we can’t do anymore for the simple reason that what even 20 years ago people would have gone, “That is the most amazing thing I could imagine you doing.” Now we would go, “Oh, we have an app for that.” I mean, there’s like a great trick where you predict a song that’s playing, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Technology has always had an uneasy relationship to magic, and there are all sorts of tricks that we can’t do anymore for the simple reason that what even 20 years ago people would have gone, “That is the most amazing thing I could imagine you doing.” Now we would go, “Oh, we have an app for that.” I mean, there’s like a great trick where you predict a song that’s playing, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And now you couldn’t do that trick cause people would go, “Yes, it’s an app. I had it 15 years ago. It’s called Shazam. You press this button and three seconds later it tells you the album and the song and the link to listen to it.” Like, all the tricks along that genre, they’re just out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And now you couldn’t do that trick cause people would go, “Yes, it’s an app. I had it 15 years ago. It’s called Shazam. You press this button and three seconds later it tells you the album and the song and the link to listen to it.” Like, all the tricks along that genre, they’re just out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You told this story about doing one of your famous dollar bill tricks for somebody, and then they immediately took out their phone and they Googled, you know, how did Josh Jay do this dollar bill trick?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You told this story about doing one of your famous dollar bill tricks for somebody, and then they immediately took out their phone and they Googled, you know, how did Josh Jay do this dollar bill trick?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then they, like, just played the video in front of everybody, and you said it was not a great moment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then they, like, just played the video in front of everybody, and you said it was not a great moment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> How do you deal with that? How do you deal with the fact that the answers so many of these tricks, the ability to watch it again and again and again from any angle that someone might have captured, are available to everybody at every moment?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> How do you deal with that? How do you deal with the fact that the answers so many of these tricks, the ability to watch it again and again and again from any angle that someone might have captured, are available to everybody at every moment?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, you’ve hit upon, you know, a really important and sort of topical crisis in our industry, which is that a lot of people are going on YouTube and doing tutorials of tricks that don’t belong to them and classic tricks and really good tricks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, you’ve hit upon, you know, a really important and sort of topical crisis in our industry, which is that a lot of people are going on YouTube and doing tutorials of tricks that don’t belong to them and classic tricks and really good tricks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The particular dollar bill trick that got Josh is one of those classics that people can now look up on YouTube.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The particular dollar bill trick that got Josh is one of those classics that people can now look up on YouTube.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Josh sees two strategies that magicians can use to get around this problem. The first being to avoid the classics altogether. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Josh sees two strategies that magicians can use to get around this problem. The first being to avoid the classics altogether. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> But if you’re doing a trick that thousands of other magicians are doing, you’re at great risk that that trick will be searchable and, you know, easily found online. Whereas if I’m doing something totally original, good luck searching for it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> But if you’re doing a trick that thousands of other magicians are doing, you’re at great risk that that trick will be searchable and, you know, easily found online. Whereas if I’m doing something totally original, good luck searching for it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re not gonna find that trick because I created that trick and it’s not published and it’s not anywhere to be found in a searchable way. So that’s one way. Another way is magicians have to get really clever at disguising what it looks like. They have to mesh together several methods and several tricks so that somebody looks at it and goes, “You know, I don’t know. He borrowed my house key, and then he bent it, and then it vanished- … and it appeared in a lock across the room.” You know, that’s not a searchable term, whereas changing a $1 bill into $100 bill is easily searchable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’re not gonna find that trick because I created that trick and it’s not published and it’s not anywhere to be found in a searchable way. So that’s one way. Another way is magicians have to get really clever at disguising what it looks like. They have to mesh together several methods and several tricks so that somebody looks at it and goes, “You know, I don’t know. He borrowed my house key, and then he bent it, and then it vanished- … and it appeared in a lock across the room.” You know, that’s not a searchable term, whereas changing a $1 bill into $100 bill is easily searchable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And yeah, so at the same time as it is making a lot of parts of your life as a magician more difficult, it also might be raising the rewards to true novelty and creativity and innovation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And yeah, so at the same time as it is making a lot of parts of your life as a magician more difficult, it also might be raising the rewards to true novelty and creativity and innovation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> That’s how I’m choosing to look at it, and maybe I’m, like, choosing to look at it with rose-tinted glasses because I like that process. But, you know, in my head, the healthiest magic community in the world is one in which everybody’s doing their own material. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> That’s how I’m choosing to look at it, and maybe I’m, like, choosing to look at it with rose-tinted glasses because I like that process. But, you know, in my head, the healthiest magic community in the world is one in which everybody’s doing their own material. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, we don’t give much attention to bands that only play covers. They play in bars for 30 people. If you write your own music and you become successful at that, you can tour arenas and have a career that is way more outsized than a cover band ever could. We don’t reward comedians who just repeat the jokes of, you know, a smorgasbord of all their favorite comedians. We reward people who come up with original monologues, and we can’t wait to hear the latest Chappelle or Nate Bargatze or Seinfeld hour because we know it’s gonna be their point of view. So, my ultimate ideal in magic, it would be, you know, all magicians doing their own stuff. Now, magic has developed at a much slower pace than comedy and even songwriting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, we don’t give much attention to bands that only play covers. They play in bars for 30 people. If you write your own music and you become successful at that, you can tour arenas and have a career that is way more outsized than a cover band ever could. We don’t reward comedians who just repeat the jokes of, you know, a smorgasbord of all their favorite comedians. We reward people who come up with original monologues, and we can’t wait to hear the latest Chappelle or Nate Bargatze or Seinfeld hour because we know it’s gonna be their point of view. So, my ultimate ideal in magic, it would be, you know, all magicians doing their own stuff. Now, magic has developed at a much slower pace than comedy and even songwriting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, it takes years to perfect a really great magic trick. So that’s a high bar indeed, but my hope is that this negative will end up being a positive and that magicians will take a cue from this and start really obscuring what they’re doing in such a way that it’s either mostly original or completely original.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, technology is changing magic, but Josh says it won’t be taking over anytime soon. For instance, most magicians who choose to use AI are using it to help them tweak their script a bit, not to design tricks wholesale. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> AI can help you find a moment in history that you would have never turned up that’s the perfect way to theatrically get into a trick on coincidence or a trick on transformation, and now you’ve given it this great context about this amazing thing that happened in Victorian England. And, you know, that’s, I think, a way that AI is really gonna help performers because like so many things, we don’t want AI to dehumanize magic. Magic will be one of the great things left when AI is fully integrated into everything else that people will go to for a truly human experience. I mean, what besides eating and watching movies will be left that isn’t entirely, you know, affected by AI?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> AI can help you find a moment in history that you would have never turned up that’s the perfect way to theatrically get into a trick on coincidence or a trick on transformation, and now you’ve given it this great context about this amazing thing that happened in Victorian England. And, you know, that’s, I think, a way that AI is really gonna help performers because like so many things, we don’t want AI to dehumanize magic. Magic will be one of the great things left when AI is fully integrated into everything else that people will go to for a truly human experience. I mean, what besides eating and watching movies will be left that isn’t entirely, you know, affected by AI?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about this. You describe the period from the 1870s to the 1930s as the “Golden Age of Magic”. Yeah. Could we, you know, see a resurgence to a new Golden Age of Magic? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about this. You describe the period from the 1870s to the 1930s as the “Golden Age of Magic”. Yeah. Could we, you know, see a resurgence to a new Golden Age of Magic? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of evidence to say that in a sense we are in another golden age. I mean, take some metrics. Because of TikTok and Instagram and just magic being online generally, and add to that the fact that America’s Got Talent and Fool Us are putting magic in front of millions of people in their homes that didn’t used to be there- More people are watching magic than have ever watched it in history.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of evidence to say that in a sense we are in another golden age. I mean, take some metrics. Because of TikTok and Instagram and just magic being online generally, and add to that the fact that America’s Got Talent and Fool Us are putting magic in front of millions of people in their homes that didn’t used to be there- More people are watching magic than have ever watched it in history.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Fact. Not, and it’s not close. It’s not like marginally more. Like, exponentially more people are watching magic than ever have. Another objective fact is that there are now more venues to perform magic than there have ever been at any point in my life or in the previous 50 years. So, I also have emprivated data because I co-own, a magic shop called Vanishing Inc., where we sell magic and we publish books, and I can tell you that we are selling to a larger group of people than magic shops used to sell to. They used to be quite localized, and thanks to the internet, we can now sell all over the world. And the industry itself is growing. You can just feel that there are more people interested in magic every day and not less. So, in those regards, anecdotally, I would say to you, we might be in a golden age and not know it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Fact. Not, and it’s not close. It’s not like marginally more. Like, exponentially more people are watching magic than ever have. Another objective fact is that there are now more venues to perform magic than there have ever been at any point in my life or in the previous 50 years. So, I also have emprivated data because I co-own, a magic shop called Vanishing Inc., where we sell magic and we publish books, and I can tell you that we are selling to a larger group of people than magic shops used to sell to. They used to be quite localized, and thanks to the internet, we can now sell all over the world. And the industry itself is growing. You can just feel that there are more people interested in magic every day and not less. So, in those regards, anecdotally, I would say to you, we might be in a golden age and not know it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You describe magic as being a product of its time, and you give this great example of the famous trick of sawing a woman in half being the perfect trick when it emerged after World War I. All of a sudden it was hitting an audience that was maybe a little bit more desensitized to violence, more open to women, playing different roles in society, including one where presumably they get chopped in half. And I wanna ask you, what would be the perfect trick for 2026? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Oh. Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, that’s a really tough question. I mean, I would say to zoom out for a second and buy myself a minute to think, I would say that the greatest magic trick, and not just in 2026, ever, is always the trick that is perfect for the situation you’re in at that moment, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Oh. Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, that’s a really tough question. I mean, I would say to zoom out for a second and buy myself a minute to think, I would say that the greatest magic trick, and not just in 2026, ever, is always the trick that is perfect for the situation you’re in at that moment, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I talk in the book, you might remember, about the ham sandwich theory, and for those readers who haven’t read my book, like, this is such a great illustration of what magic can be at its ultimate fullest expression, which is that if I reach up behind your ear right now, Jessica, and pull out a ham sandwich from nowhere, and you don’t know how it’s done, you’re gonna look at me and go, “That was random,” because it is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I talk in the book, you might remember, about the ham sandwich theory, and for those readers who haven’t read my book, like, this is such a great illustration of what magic can be at its ultimate fullest expression, which is that if I reach up behind your ear right now, Jessica, and pull out a ham sandwich from nowhere, and you don’t know how it’s done, you’re gonna look at me and go, “That was random,” because it is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s totally random. It’s not interesting. It’s not logical. I just pulled a ham sandwich out. It’s arbitrary. But if instead you said to me, “Gosh, Josh, I am starving. I’m just… I’m really in the mood for a ham sandwich. Is that weird to say?” And I then went, “Oh, yeah?” And now I pull a ham sandwich out of your ear- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s totally random. It’s not interesting. It’s not logical. I just pulled a ham sandwich out. It’s arbitrary. But if instead you said to me, “Gosh, Josh, I am starving. I’m just… I’m really in the mood for a ham sandwich. Is that weird to say?” And I then went, “Oh, yeah?” And now I pull a ham sandwich out of your ear- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I have fulfilled a need. I have responded to a need you created, and now that magic is everything to you. It’s personal. It felt directly tailored to something you had. It fulfilled a need, hunger that you were feeling at that moment. So, whatever the answer is to your question, it would have to be something that’s specific to an audience in 2026.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I have fulfilled a need. I have responded to a need you created, and now that magic is everything to you. It’s personal. It felt directly tailored to something you had. It fulfilled a need, hunger that you were feeling at that moment. So, whatever the answer is to your question, it would have to be something that’s specific to an audience in 2026.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I want to push Josh here. What does the perfect trick look like in 2026 with technology constantly shifting the boundaries between that’s awesome and yeah, that’s an app? What happens to an art form so cognizant of the limits of human cognition when everyone carries around a device that seems to know everything and never forget?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I want to push Josh here. What does the perfect trick look like in 2026 with technology constantly shifting the boundaries between that’s awesome and yeah, that’s an app? What happens to an art form so cognizant of the limits of human cognition when everyone carries around a device that seems to know everything and never forget?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, maybe it calls attention to that very device. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I always see things through the lens of what I’m working on, and I’m working on a trick where we turn off all the lights in the theater, which is instantly and immediately fascinating to me because it gets to be this change of scenery, right? And I have everybody take out their cell phones and put their light on. So, you get that little concert vibe going where they’re moving their light around, and it looks like twinkling stars in this huge theater, right? And all these people are here. And I’m working on a trick where they are whittled down. So, through a series of choices that the audience makes, I would say, “Okay, if you were born in September, stay standing with your light on. Everybody else sit down, turn your phone off.” And it goes from 1,000 lights to… 30 lights. And you whittle them down all the way until you get one person with a light, and then you predict that person’s phone number, which is the thing that they’re holding- the whole time, and you’re right there, and how could you have known it would be them, and the choices that were made.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I always see things through the lens of what I’m working on, and I’m working on a trick where we turn off all the lights in the theater, which is instantly and immediately fascinating to me because it gets to be this change of scenery, right? And I have everybody take out their cell phones and put their light on. So, you get that little concert vibe going where they’re moving their light around, and it looks like twinkling stars in this huge theater, right? And all these people are here. And I’m working on a trick where they are whittled down. So, through a series of choices that the audience makes, I would say, “Okay, if you were born in September, stay standing with your light on. Everybody else sit down, turn your phone off.” And it goes from 1,000 lights to… 30 lights. And you whittle them down all the way until you get one person with a light, and then you predict that person’s phone number, which is the thing that they’re holding- the whole time, and you’re right there, and how could you have known it would be them, and the choices that were made.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then the very light they’re holding has the phone number, and that’s what I’m working on, and that’s what I’ll call the ultimate trick in 2026 cause I haven’t fully figured out how I’m doing it yet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then the very light they’re holding has the phone number, and that’s what I’m working on, and that’s what I’ll call the ultimate trick in 2026 cause I haven’t fully figured out how I’m doing it yet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh my gosh. Well, I just love hearing you talk about this knowing that you don’t even fully know how you’re going to do it yet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh my gosh. Well, I just love hearing you talk about this knowing that you don’t even fully know how you’re going to do it yet.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like, it seems like as a creator, you think about how do I want the audience to feel, what should they be paying attention to, what should they be thinking about, and then eventually you get back to the mechanism of how you pull this all off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yes. It’s exactly that. And that was a really important shift for me is not to become obsessed with method, not to get bogged down by well, that would be great, but I don’t know how to do it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yes. It’s exactly that. And that was a really important shift for me is not to become obsessed with method, not to get bogged down by well, that would be great, but I don’t know how to do it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that all my best things have come out of me sort of going I’m not gonna think about how this could be done. I just wanna play out in my mind what it would look like if I could do it. And then I need to figure out a way to do it. And, you know, you fall on your face a lot, and you realize, like, well, I can’t do that, but I could do this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you might fall short of the ideal, but at least you’re thinking… in the minds of the audience, and I think that’s a really good place to start. You know, empathy is a really important tool for a magician, and I imagine it’s probably a huge focus of everybody who’s helping to design AI is to think empathically, to think like your audience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, the first thing you have to do as a magician is get out of your own head and to try to get into the head of the people you’re performing for. What do they wanna see? What would they think if you did this? How would they react if you did this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Empathy as one of the ultimate superpowers? Yeah, I buy that. Human creators of all stripes have long recognized its power. Magicians like Joshua Jay rely on empathy to create experiences that delight, and stun, and fill a need. Engineers rely on empathy to imagine how users will engage with confusing or intimidating tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Empathy as one of the ultimate superpowers? Yeah, I buy that. Human creators of all stripes have long recognized its power. Magicians like Joshua Jay rely on empathy to create experiences that delight, and stun, and fill a need. Engineers rely on empathy to imagine how users will engage with confusing or intimidating tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What’s different is that now we have machines that empathize, too, or at least convincingly perform empathy. Which brings us right back to where we started, me going to my chatbot three days later to report back on how that email landed, the email we carefully crafted together. As that line between what we perceive to be reality versus magic continues to blur before our eyes, I’m glad to have the occasional magician as a tour guide.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, and Leila Mohammed. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When people go to a magic show, they expect to be fooled. That’s part of the fun. And magician \u003ca href=\"https://www.joshuajay.com/\">Joshua Jay\u003c/a> says much of the magician’s work is helping people fool themselves. Our brains are hardwired to fill in gaps, predict outcomes, and take cognitive shortcuts to process the overwhelming amount of information around us. When interacting with AI chatbots, we may similarly fool ourselves into believing we’re interacting with a human. But unlike at a magic show, it’s not always clear when the trick is over. Plus: how AI is changing magic.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a rapidly automating world. I’m Jess Love. I’ve been known, in moments of excitement or confusion or overwhelm, to turn to a chatbot, just to share, “Hey, this is what I’m thinking I’ll do next. Here’s how I want to approach this situation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ll even occasionally return to provide an update. Maybe this isn’t ideal. I know how sycophantic chatbots can be, telling me how thoughtful and clever my plans are unless I sternly direct them to act like dream-crushing jerks. But I can’t deny that the experience is pleasant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like if your diary could write back. And yes, on some level, I know this is a machine trained to keep me engaging with it, and yet don’t I still feel a little validated when that response comes back? A little heard? There is no precedent for this. In every other moment in history, feeling like you’re talking back and forth with a real person has meant you’re connecting with a real person, someone who understands you, someone offering you their finite attention.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we’ve evolved to take pleasure in these interactions, to seek them out, because that’s kept our species connected and alive. But with chatbots, this ancient link between the appearance of a mind and an actual mind no longer holds, and it’s really hard to know what to make of that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are people who obsess over this gap between what we intellectually know to be true and what we experience as real. Only they’re not AI researchers — they’re magicians. Today’s conversation is with one of the finest. Joshua Jay has performed his sleight-of-hand magic all around the world, including on major talk shows and for US presidents, and he’s a total magic nerd, the author of several books about magic, including “How Magicians Think.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he’s not gonna teach us about algorithms. Instead, he’ll teach us to see ourselves the way he sees us, as people whose attention can be commanded and redirected, whose memories can be shifted, and as active participants in our own deception. We also talk about the surprising ways that technology is changing magic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>From Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, this is Life Automated, distributed by KQED. Here’s my conversation with Joshua Jay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, the science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke famously said, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” And I think for a lot of people, sitting down in front of a chatbot for the first time, that was kind of the experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Magic. There was this thing, this machine doing something that we didn’t think that machines could do. It was interacting with us in real time, in our own language, in meaningful ways. So, I wanted to ask you, as an actual magician, somebody who thinks about how emotions like awe and surprise are created, what was your first experience using a chatbot like, and did it in any way feel like a magic trick?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s such a great question, and it’s such a relevant question for me as a magician because we are deliverers of certain emotion, which is what you’re talking about, this awe, this like I don’t even know how this is happening, but it’s happening anyway. You know, Teller said so beautifully that magic is the difference between what you see and what you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, you’re having a conversation with this entity and you know it’s not a person, and yet you’re having this conversation. So, the crisis is always we are deliverers of this feeling of astonishment, and yet by virtue of the fact that we know how all of this is done, we often don’t get that sense of awe, and we don’t get amazed very often.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, the first time that I engaged with AI and was… You know, that first time you take the plunge and you’re just asking, you’re having a conversation with a thing, I was truly astonished. And I felt like, wow, this is probably what it feels like to watch a magic show and just be amazed at everything. And so yeah, I absolutely was totally and utterly amazed and felt like, as we call you guys, “laypeople”, I felt like a layperson. I felt like a muggle. And, it was really fantastic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You just brought up, Teller, of course, of the very famous duo ‘Penn & Teller’, and they have this trick. It’s kind of a classic trick where they’re moving balls in cups as magicians do. We call you guys- magicians, us muggles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Only they use clear cups, so you can actually see what’s happening. And that really kind of reminds me of what you were just talking about, this idea of knowing without knowing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, I find myself thinking so often when I’m performing, like, you know, you do something, and hopefully somebody really likes it and they scream in all the right places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what I’m thinking most of the time is, “Oh, you guys aren’t even seeing the coolest part. If you could see how this works, you would be even more flipped out.” Because sometimes you’re fooled by something that’s so much simpler than you could expect. And very often, and this is such a beautiful topic that it’s its own deep dive- The magician doesn’t fool you; you fool yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there is a difference. You know, some things it is the magician. It’s sleight-of-hand. It’s a gizmo you couldn’t possibly anticipate, a technology you’re not aware of. But often, you fool yourself with assumptions you make and the psychology that’s being used on you. So, it is this really interesting thing that you bring up where as great as magic feels to a muggle, to a layperson, you don’t even see the best part often.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, you bring up this classic Penn and Teller piece, and they have many pieces like this, where they said, “We’re gonna do cups and balls,” but then in the middle of the trick, after they do a classic cups and balls with opaque cups and normal-sized balls, they do it again, but they do it with clear cups.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>As it goes with breaking a few rules of magic. Now, the first rule of magic is you never do the same trick twice. So, we’re good. Second rule of magic is you never tell an audience how a trick is being done. So, we’re gonna tell you exactly how the trick is being done. The third rule of magic is you never let the audience see your secret preparation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And even though if you were to zoom in on the right part, you would see how it works, it’s really a lesson in misdirection because you’re looking at Teller as he’s throwing a ball to the audience, and you’re not watching Penn as he’s placing the cups back down. And in this beautiful chaos of choreography, the lesson, the sort of aesthetic beauty of it, is you’re seeing how it’s done, but you really aren’t seeing how it’s done at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This trick is the ultimate flex. I watched it on YouTube after my conversation with Joshua Jay multiple times.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Eventually, I did see the key move, Teller placing the right ball exactly where it needed to be to make the trick work, in full view of the audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Place it on our hand and show it. Take a third and final ball, pretend to place it in our hand. Pretend to show the cup. We place it in the cup. Then secretly reveal it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> How did I miss it so many times? How did I see without seeing? It really drove home how easily we can be led to believe something false, even when the truth is right in front of us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Penn & Teller playing in the background]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>…The finish. It’s an American baseball right there. That’s the Penn and Teller Cups and Balls. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Think about this in terms of interacting with a chatbot. It’s like we know that they are machines. We know that we are actively being fooled in some way, and yet we might still feel understood, affirmed, cared for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> You know, the implicit agreement when you see a magic show is you’re saying when you sit down to watch, I know you’re going to try to fool me and I want to be fooled, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you know that there is a deception at hand. You know that there’s going to be things that hopefully if they do their job, the magician does that you will not understand how it works. And I think that the uncomfortability comes in real life in that sometimes there’s not that implicit handshake going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Look, in a magic show, you’re fooled. There’s no way around it. People don’t like that word. Some people do like that word, but call it whatever you like. We can’t soften it. You’re going to be fooled. You’re going to see something you don’t understand and you’re not supposed to understand it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that’s what’s beautiful about it is that’s out in the open. That is made explicit. Whereas with some aspects of AI, with some aspects of technology in general, we don’t know where the human element ends and where the AI begins. And that can be really unsettling for people because they may not feel like, hey, look, when I started this conversation, I didn’t know I wasn’t talking to a human, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Of course, none of this “being fooled” is by accident. Chatbots are generally designed to mimic humans. They refer to themselves in the first person as I or me. They act interested in what we’re saying, asking questions to nudge the conversation forward, and they learn about us, first through extensive training on human language and behavior, and then increasingly through interactions with us, adapting to our personal preferences and detecting our mood shifts in real time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This learning to read human beings, that’s something magicians do too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I say that you’re always watching the magician and that’s how you think of a magic show, but we’re watching you too. And that little shift in perspective is something I don’t think most people think about. You know, during my opening trick, which has been the same for years now, and I can do it, you know, sort of on autopilot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t have to think very deeply. It helps me establish my rhythm. But in my head, what I’m doing is I am plotting the rest of the show based on the hand I’m dealt. Ooh, these people in the back left have a lot of sight line issues. I’m gonna really need to connect with them to make sure they can see and do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or, you know all the waiters are opening this kitchen door in the back of the theater that’s making it really noisy, and so these people are gonna need to be babysat a little more to make sure they’re super engaged. In magic what I’m looking for on stage is somebody who is not going to be afraid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, the first thing I look for before anything else is I’m looking for somebody who is exuding confidence. And a big indicator of confidence is eye contact. You know, it’s so crazy when I say like, “I need someone to help with this next thing,” there are just so many people in an audience who immediately think if they don’t look at me, then somehow, I won’t pick them. And it’s really pronounced when you’re like, as a magician, looking in the audience as you walk through an aisle, left and right. You just see people just totally thinking that they won’t be seen if they’re not… And I’m like, “I can see you even though you’re not looking at me.” But really, you’re looking for somebody who’s got great eye contact and who looks like they’re enjoying the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there’s usually like a little test. So, if I can narrow it down to two or three people who I think, “Oh, this person would be just great on stage,” I might say- “Welcome to the show.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I won’t invite them. I might say, “Welcome to the show, sir. Where are you from?” “I’m from Canton, Ohio.” “Okay. And, what’s this? Why are you, traveling with a suitcase to a magic show?” You know. And if they’re stiff, if they’re giving one-word answers, if they’re sort of like a deer in headlights, maybe I can say, “Well, thanks for coming.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I appreciate you being here. And what about you? What’s your story? Who are you here with?” Right? And you’re just looking for somebody to be like, “Well, I wasn’t even supposed to be here tonight, but my friend Janie, she dragged me to the show and now I’m so glad I came.” Well, there’s a chatty person. That sounds fun. So, I might use that person. And similarly, if I need somebody who is a little bit more submissive in the sense that they’re gonna follow my directions and not give me a hard time-… if I say, “Hold out both hands like this. Put one coin in this hand, one coin…” I don’t want that person switching hands with the coins or you know, when I turn around- trying to throw me off. So, in that case, you might do just the opposite. You might choose somebody who is a little afraid. Sounds a little dark, but maybe you do want somebody who’s a little more easily intimidated so that they will follow your directions exactly as you lay them out and not give you a hard time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, each trick I have kind of the archetype of what I’m looking for and what would be best, and I’m gonna try and fit that puzzle piece with the piece that fits in the gap there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Josh says that this notion of reading people correctly, it can be pretty high stakes. These are dynamic encounters that go in very different directions depending on just what kind of energy you’re getting back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I was doing a show a few months ago, I thought I picked the perfect person. There was a woman, who was just giving great eye contact. She looked to be having a blast. She was even a little bit chatty, which I think in the end was what did me in. You know, she just seemed so confident and comfortable on stage, and it was a big crowd. It was more than 1,000 people. So, I thought she’s gonna be perfect. I noted it, and at the right moment, invited her on stage. What I didn’t realize until she came up was, she was loaded drunk. I mean, she was so drunk she could not follow basic instructions. She couldn’t stop talking. She was disruptive. And in the beginning, that’s funny, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I’m not a comedy magician, so my purpose isn’t just to make people laugh. It’s to show them, I hope, things that are truly amazing, and if they laugh along the way- awesome. So okay immediately I have to reassess and go, we can make some comedy out of this, but the magic is gonna suffer if she can’t be quiet and follow directions and help us navigate to this amazing moment that’s coming up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And she couldn’t. Right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> She couldn’t. And so, you try and limp to the close and just think, “Next time I won’t make this mistake.” But in this case, I had to do the rarest thing of all, which is dismiss somebody. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, my goodness! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And you just say, “Do me a favor, grab your seat and I need you to come up now.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I actually had to do the switch mid-trick, which I very rarely, I can’t remember the last time, I picked someone so wrong that I had to recalibrate like that. But you know, this is what happens when you are on the road 300 days a year. You’re gonna have nightmare nights at the office. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, when I hear this, I think, you know, the exception is what proves the rule. You know, the fact that this happens so rarely suggests that you are quite good at reading the room and reading people in ways that they I mean, yeah, I guess somebody who’s had a dozen cocktails probably knows that they’re going to embarrass themselves on stage. But for the most part, you’re picking up on tells that people might not even be aware that they have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess I’m harping on this because when I think about machines that aren’t just reading our posture or looking for eye contact or are looking at, you know, beginning the data collection process the second we walk into the room. They learn about us for months, years and they’re able to gather a wide range of data about us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, I start wondering, you know, what that starts to look like and I would ask you, are we more manipulable than we realize? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yes, emphatically yes. I think that there are so many insights that are so scary to a magician when you start applying it to real life. Like, there are so many- One of the basic tenets of magic is that if you tell an audience something, it is a tenth as effective if you can find a way to let that audience tell themselves, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So let me give you an example. If I come out, this is like a classic amateur magician’s move. If I come out and I say, “Ladies and gentlemen, a regular deck of cards,” that is wrong for every possible reason. Because if I just said, “Do me a favor, give these a shuffle, and then I want you to take one out that you like and write your name on it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You will never in that interaction question the deck of cards because it’s a deck of cards. I’m handling it like you would handle a deck of cards if you handed it to a friend between rounds of dealing poker, right? Take the deck of cards, shuffle it up, take a card out. You would never think, “Are there 52 in there? Are they all the same shape? Is one shorter than another one? Is there more than one ace of spades in that deck?” You would never ask those questions because I’ve presented it in a casual manner, and I’ve given you a task. But the minute you say, “Ladies and gentlemen, a regulation pack of cards,” instantly you go, “Well, is it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, I didn’t see it. Can I see it? Do you mind if I shuffle? Can I count those cards? Can I hold them up to a light? Can I shuffle and make sure they’re all the same thickness,” right? But if I give you the deck and I say, “Shuffle them up and take out any one that you like,” I’m letting you tell yourself it’s a regular deck because you put your fingers on it, you shuffle it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, you may be shuffling a deck that’s got all sorts of quirky, subtle things wrong with it, but you will be telling yourself it’s a normal deck because it feels right. When I look through to take out a card, nothing looked out of place. And now you’re telling yourself, and that’s a much more effective way to deceive somebody because you’re telling yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Josh says that the best magicians don’t just shape how people experience something in the moment. They can also change what we later remember about a moment. For instance, a magician might appear to drop a coin, and then somehow it vanishes. Cool trick. But the magician doesn’t stop there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> And if a minute later I say, “And you watched that coin as it fell from my hand and disintegrated in midair,” well, that’s a really great word, disintegrated, right? And it colors your memory. Maybe I refer to it two or three more times in the show, “And then it just disappeared, and it disintegrated, and when it got to my knee level, it just turned to dust.” And you can have people leaving swearing that they saw a coin vanish down here. And that’s the next frontier of magic is really manipulating memories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> If you were a less ethical person, do you think you could get people to do things against their will? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I mean… I think that the overarching lesson that I’ve, that I’m continually shocked about in magic in this regard is how easily people can be duped into believing things. I mean, it’s so crazy to me that, you know, I do a magic show that is meant to amaze and delight, but in no way is it meant to skirt the line of reality and make people actually believe. You know, there are performers like David Blaine, Uri Geller, and Oz Pearlman, who, you know, people see those performers and sort of go, “So wait, is that a trick or is that person really doing that?” And I don’t have that kind of approach, and still, not sometimes, very often people come up to me after shows and they’ll say really touching but misguided things like, “Hey, can you give me advice on this job I’m about to take? Cause I, you know, that trick you did where you were able to predict the future, I’m just wondering if you…” You know, you just wanna pull them aside and say, “This is pure entertainment. Like, I can’t give you life advice like that. I can’t actually see the future. This is fun.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But you got my passcode off my phone. I’ve never told anybody that in my life.” “Yes, that’s a trick. I predicted your passcode.” Right. “Well, if you can tell my passcode, can you just tell me just a little advice? Should I take this job and move to Phoenix or not?” And it’s like, you know, you see that with certain people, they’re looking for an excuse to believe. They’re looking for it, and the more you say it’s not real, the more they want to believe it is real, and that’s scary stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> My takeaway so far in this conversation, buckle up. We better hope for a rapid learning curve as we adjust to life alongside artificial intelligences that feel real, that have been designed to seem real, but simply aren’t. My worry is that knowing we’re talking to a machine won’t ever be enough. Just like Teller’s baseball, even those rare occasions where we can see what’s happening under the hood won’t stop the illusion, because we want to believe the illusion. Because the illusion doesn’t just come from the machine, it comes from us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These are early innings. I’ll be very curious about how these chatbots change over time and the many ways they are welcomed or inserted into our lives. After the break, a pivot. I ask my guests, how is technology changing magic? And if you’re thinking, “Not that much,” you would be wrong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>You might think that sleight of hand magic hasn’t changed much over the decades. A card trick, cups and balls, these are all pretty analog. Automation shouldn’t have too much of an impact. But the truth is, all performances are interactions between performer and audience. So even when technology doesn’t change the performer, it changes the audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Technology has always had an uneasy relationship to magic, and there are all sorts of tricks that we can’t do anymore for the simple reason that what even 20 years ago people would have gone, “That is the most amazing thing I could imagine you doing.” Now we would go, “Oh, we have an app for that.” I mean, there’s like a great trick where you predict a song that’s playing, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now you couldn’t do that trick cause people would go, “Yes, it’s an app. I had it 15 years ago. It’s called Shazam. You press this button and three seconds later it tells you the album and the song and the link to listen to it.” Like, all the tricks along that genre, they’re just out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You told this story about doing one of your famous dollar bill tricks for somebody, and then they immediately took out their phone and they Googled, you know, how did Josh Jay do this dollar bill trick?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then they, like, just played the video in front of everybody, and you said it was not a great moment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> How do you deal with that? How do you deal with the fact that the answers so many of these tricks, the ability to watch it again and again and again from any angle that someone might have captured, are available to everybody at every moment?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, you’ve hit upon, you know, a really important and sort of topical crisis in our industry, which is that a lot of people are going on YouTube and doing tutorials of tricks that don’t belong to them and classic tricks and really good tricks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The particular dollar bill trick that got Josh is one of those classics that people can now look up on YouTube.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Josh sees two strategies that magicians can use to get around this problem. The first being to avoid the classics altogether. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> But if you’re doing a trick that thousands of other magicians are doing, you’re at great risk that that trick will be searchable and, you know, easily found online. Whereas if I’m doing something totally original, good luck searching for it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re not gonna find that trick because I created that trick and it’s not published and it’s not anywhere to be found in a searchable way. So that’s one way. Another way is magicians have to get really clever at disguising what it looks like. They have to mesh together several methods and several tricks so that somebody looks at it and goes, “You know, I don’t know. He borrowed my house key, and then he bent it, and then it vanished- … and it appeared in a lock across the room.” You know, that’s not a searchable term, whereas changing a $1 bill into $100 bill is easily searchable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And yeah, so at the same time as it is making a lot of parts of your life as a magician more difficult, it also might be raising the rewards to true novelty and creativity and innovation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> That’s how I’m choosing to look at it, and maybe I’m, like, choosing to look at it with rose-tinted glasses because I like that process. But, you know, in my head, the healthiest magic community in the world is one in which everybody’s doing their own material. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we don’t give much attention to bands that only play covers. They play in bars for 30 people. If you write your own music and you become successful at that, you can tour arenas and have a career that is way more outsized than a cover band ever could. We don’t reward comedians who just repeat the jokes of, you know, a smorgasbord of all their favorite comedians. We reward people who come up with original monologues, and we can’t wait to hear the latest Chappelle or Nate Bargatze or Seinfeld hour because we know it’s gonna be their point of view. So, my ultimate ideal in magic, it would be, you know, all magicians doing their own stuff. Now, magic has developed at a much slower pace than comedy and even songwriting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, it takes years to perfect a really great magic trick. So that’s a high bar indeed, but my hope is that this negative will end up being a positive and that magicians will take a cue from this and start really obscuring what they’re doing in such a way that it’s either mostly original or completely original.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, technology is changing magic, but Josh says it won’t be taking over anytime soon. For instance, most magicians who choose to use AI are using it to help them tweak their script a bit, not to design tricks wholesale. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> AI can help you find a moment in history that you would have never turned up that’s the perfect way to theatrically get into a trick on coincidence or a trick on transformation, and now you’ve given it this great context about this amazing thing that happened in Victorian England. And, you know, that’s, I think, a way that AI is really gonna help performers because like so many things, we don’t want AI to dehumanize magic. Magic will be one of the great things left when AI is fully integrated into everything else that people will go to for a truly human experience. I mean, what besides eating and watching movies will be left that isn’t entirely, you know, affected by AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about this. You describe the period from the 1870s to the 1930s as the “Golden Age of Magic”. Yeah. Could we, you know, see a resurgence to a new Golden Age of Magic? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of evidence to say that in a sense we are in another golden age. I mean, take some metrics. Because of TikTok and Instagram and just magic being online generally, and add to that the fact that America’s Got Talent and Fool Us are putting magic in front of millions of people in their homes that didn’t used to be there- More people are watching magic than have ever watched it in history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fact. Not, and it’s not close. It’s not like marginally more. Like, exponentially more people are watching magic than ever have. Another objective fact is that there are now more venues to perform magic than there have ever been at any point in my life or in the previous 50 years. So, I also have emprivated data because I co-own, a magic shop called Vanishing Inc., where we sell magic and we publish books, and I can tell you that we are selling to a larger group of people than magic shops used to sell to. They used to be quite localized, and thanks to the internet, we can now sell all over the world. And the industry itself is growing. You can just feel that there are more people interested in magic every day and not less. So, in those regards, anecdotally, I would say to you, we might be in a golden age and not know it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> You describe magic as being a product of its time, and you give this great example of the famous trick of sawing a woman in half being the perfect trick when it emerged after World War I. All of a sudden it was hitting an audience that was maybe a little bit more desensitized to violence, more open to women, playing different roles in society, including one where presumably they get chopped in half. And I wanna ask you, what would be the perfect trick for 2026? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Oh. Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, that’s a really tough question. I mean, I would say to zoom out for a second and buy myself a minute to think, I would say that the greatest magic trick, and not just in 2026, ever, is always the trick that is perfect for the situation you’re in at that moment, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I talk in the book, you might remember, about the ham sandwich theory, and for those readers who haven’t read my book, like, this is such a great illustration of what magic can be at its ultimate fullest expression, which is that if I reach up behind your ear right now, Jessica, and pull out a ham sandwich from nowhere, and you don’t know how it’s done, you’re gonna look at me and go, “That was random,” because it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s totally random. It’s not interesting. It’s not logical. I just pulled a ham sandwich out. It’s arbitrary. But if instead you said to me, “Gosh, Josh, I am starving. I’m just… I’m really in the mood for a ham sandwich. Is that weird to say?” And I then went, “Oh, yeah?” And now I pull a ham sandwich out of your ear- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I have fulfilled a need. I have responded to a need you created, and now that magic is everything to you. It’s personal. It felt directly tailored to something you had. It fulfilled a need, hunger that you were feeling at that moment. So, whatever the answer is to your question, it would have to be something that’s specific to an audience in 2026.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I want to push Josh here. What does the perfect trick look like in 2026 with technology constantly shifting the boundaries between that’s awesome and yeah, that’s an app? What happens to an art form so cognizant of the limits of human cognition when everyone carries around a device that seems to know everything and never forget?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, maybe it calls attention to that very device. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> I always see things through the lens of what I’m working on, and I’m working on a trick where we turn off all the lights in the theater, which is instantly and immediately fascinating to me because it gets to be this change of scenery, right? And I have everybody take out their cell phones and put their light on. So, you get that little concert vibe going where they’re moving their light around, and it looks like twinkling stars in this huge theater, right? And all these people are here. And I’m working on a trick where they are whittled down. So, through a series of choices that the audience makes, I would say, “Okay, if you were born in September, stay standing with your light on. Everybody else sit down, turn your phone off.” And it goes from 1,000 lights to… 30 lights. And you whittle them down all the way until you get one person with a light, and then you predict that person’s phone number, which is the thing that they’re holding- the whole time, and you’re right there, and how could you have known it would be them, and the choices that were made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the very light they’re holding has the phone number, and that’s what I’m working on, and that’s what I’ll call the ultimate trick in 2026 cause I haven’t fully figured out how I’m doing it yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh my gosh. Well, I just love hearing you talk about this knowing that you don’t even fully know how you’re going to do it yet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like, it seems like as a creator, you think about how do I want the audience to feel, what should they be paying attention to, what should they be thinking about, and then eventually you get back to the mechanism of how you pull this all off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Jay:\u003c/strong> Yes. It’s exactly that. And that was a really important shift for me is not to become obsessed with method, not to get bogged down by well, that would be great, but I don’t know how to do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that all my best things have come out of me sort of going I’m not gonna think about how this could be done. I just wanna play out in my mind what it would look like if I could do it. And then I need to figure out a way to do it. And, you know, you fall on your face a lot, and you realize, like, well, I can’t do that, but I could do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you might fall short of the ideal, but at least you’re thinking… in the minds of the audience, and I think that’s a really good place to start. You know, empathy is a really important tool for a magician, and I imagine it’s probably a huge focus of everybody who’s helping to design AI is to think empathically, to think like your audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, the first thing you have to do as a magician is get out of your own head and to try to get into the head of the people you’re performing for. What do they wanna see? What would they think if you did this? How would they react if you did this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Empathy as one of the ultimate superpowers? Yeah, I buy that. Human creators of all stripes have long recognized its power. Magicians like Joshua Jay rely on empathy to create experiences that delight, and stun, and fill a need. Engineers rely on empathy to imagine how users will engage with confusing or intimidating tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What’s different is that now we have machines that empathize, too, or at least convincingly perform empathy. Which brings us right back to where we started, me going to my chatbot three days later to report back on how that email landed, the email we carefully crafted together. As that line between what we perceive to be reality versus magic continues to blur before our eyes, I’m glad to have the occasional magician as a tour guide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, and Leila Mohammed. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[ad break]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. Support and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>END\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. Support and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger. \u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Does AI Have to Be Bad News for the Planet? (with Meghan Busse) | KQED",
"description": "Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? Economist Meghan Busse suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.",
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"socialDescription": "Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? Economist Meghan Busse suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. Support and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>END\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://ai-frontiers.org/articles/how-ai-could-benefit-the-workers-it-displaces\">How AI Could Benefit Workers, Even If It Displaces Most Jobs\u003c/a> — Benjamin Jones, \u003cem>AI Frontiers\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Breaking news bulletin announcing the death of John F. Kennedy]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip of Neil Armstrong on the moon]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>That’s one small step for man, one giant- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or the towers fell on 9/11?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[News bulletin from September 11, 2001]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Where were you when you first used ChatGPT?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, much of the work I’ve done over the past decade is in science communication, essentially translating original research written by and for experts into something comprehensible to most people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If I didn’t like the first draft that was conjured, I could just tell it to try again from a different perspective now. Write it shorter. Write it longer. Write it for a fifth grader. Write it with sports metaphors. I was stunned. It seemed clear we were entering a new era of science communication where all the world’s knowledge was not only available, but personally customizable on demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wanted a given study to be relayed in the style of Mr. Darcy flirting with Elizabeth Bennet, you were now suddenly in luck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[AI-generated summary of Pride and Prejudice in style of research article]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>See, much of the work I’ve done over the past decade is in science communication, essentially translating original research written by and for experts into something comprehensible to most people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://ai-frontiers.org/articles/how-ai-could-benefit-the-workers-it-displaces\">How AI Could Benefit Workers, Even If It Displaces Most Jobs\u003c/a> — Benjamin Jones, \u003cem>AI Frontiers\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Breaking news bulletin announcing the death of John F. Kennedy]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip of Neil Armstrong on the moon]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>That’s one small step for man, one giant- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or the towers fell on 9/11?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[News bulletin from September 11, 2001]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Where were you when you first used ChatGPT?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, much of the work I’ve done over the past decade is in science communication, essentially translating original research written by and for experts into something comprehensible to most people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If I didn’t like the first draft that was conjured, I could just tell it to try again from a different perspective now. Write it shorter. Write it longer. Write it for a fifth grader. Write it with sports metaphors. I was stunned. It seemed clear we were entering a new era of science communication where all the world’s knowledge was not only available, but personally customizable on demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wanted a given study to be relayed in the style of Mr. Darcy flirting with Elizabeth Bennet, you were now suddenly in luck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[AI-generated summary of Pride and Prejudice in style of research article]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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"reveal": {
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"order": 16
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},
"science-friday": {
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