Ever wonder where the internet stops and IRL begins? Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor. From internet trends to AI slop to the politics of memes, Close All Tabs covers it all.
How will AI change our jobs and lives? Is the government watching what I post? Is there life beyond TikTok? Host Morgan Sung pulls from experts, the audience, and history to add context to the trends and depth to the memes. And she’ll wrestle with as many browser tabs as it takes to explain the cultural moment we’re all collectively living.
Episodes
The Emily Hart Saga, Part 2: The AI Thirst Trap Grift
The Emily Hart Saga, Part 2: The AI Thirst Trap Grift
Support for Close All Tabs comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund.
Close All Tabs Team
Morgan Sung
Host
Morgan Sung is a tech journalist whose work covers the range of absurdity and brilliance that is the internet. Her beat has evolved into an exploration of social platforms and how they shape real-world culture. She has written for TechCrunch, NBC News, Mashable, BuzzFeed News and more. Morgan Sung is represented by SAG-AFTRA.
Maya Cueva
Producer
Maya is the Producer for Close All Tabs, as well as an award winning director from Berkeley. She specializes in documentary, radio, and audio production. She was a Netflix Nonfiction Director and Producer fellow was also listed on DOC NYC’s 40 Under 40 Filmmakers, co-presented by HBO Documentary Films. Maya’s work has been featured on The New Yorker, NPR’s All Things Considered, Latino USA, The Atlantic, Teen Vogue, and National Geographic. She received a student Emmy for her short film, The Provider, and her feature film, On the Divide, premiered in the documentary competition at Tribeca Film Festival in 2021 and was broadcast on POV on PBS in Spring 2022. Maya Cueva is represented by SAG-AFTRA.
Chris Egusa
Senior Editor
Chris Egusa is the Senior Editor for Close All Tabs, as well as composer and sound designer. His reporting on disability and healthcare inequities has earned accolades from the Public Media Journalists Association, the Society of Professional Journalists NorCal, Investigative Reporters and Editors, the Webby Awards, and more. Chris’ background includes audio documentary production, filmmaking, and nonprofit strategy. He holds degrees from SJSU and Northwestern University’s Medill School. Chris is more online than he cares to admit, appreciates a good clicky mechanical keyboard, and definitely owns too many pairs of hi-fi headphones.
Chris Hambrick
Editor
Chris is an editor for KQED Podcasts and loves holding the big picture vision for shows. Previously they were a producer for Spooked Podcast from Snap Judgment Studios, host for The Tracklist on KGPC, as well as White Rabbit Story Hour podcast. They have contributed to KALW, KQED’s Bay Curious, and facilitated for national oral history project, StoryCorps. Sometimes, if you’re lucky, you can catch her telling stories on the Mortified, SFLitCrawl or Moth stages.
Jen Chien
Director of Podcasts
Jen Chien is Director of Podcasts at KQED and co-founder of the Editors Collective and Edit Mode. Previously, she was Executive Editor for LWC Studios, Senior Radio Editor at Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting and Managing Editor for Crosscurrents and KALW News. Awards recognitions include Third Coast, Peabody, Gracies, ONA/OJA, and SPJ Sigma Delta Chi. She holds a BA in American Studies from Smith College, and an MA in Interdisciplinary Performance from New College of California.
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"slug": "the-emily-hart-saga-part-2-the-ai-thirst-trap-grift",
"title": "The Emily Hart Saga, Part 2: The AI Thirst Trap Grift",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Emily Hart, the bikini-wearing right-wing AI influencer, had captured the hearts, minds and more of MAGA men online. But her creator, Sam, had grown sick of the creepy messages and unsolicited explicit photos he’d received from Emily’s adoring fans. And he was about to be outed as a “scammer.” In this follow-up to last week’s episode, we dig into the downfall of the MAGA dream girl, the explosion of AI “thirst” grifts and why Sam says he shouldn’t be labeled as a “scammer” at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2485498705\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a>— Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/goose-a-new-gay-dating-app-appears-to-be-a-psyop/\">Goose, a New Gay Dating App, Appears to Be a Psyop\u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://inkstickmedia.com/how-indias-cyber-scam-industry-causes-global-havoc/\">How India’s Cyber Scam Industry Causes Global Havoc\u003c/a> — Hanan Zaffar, \u003cem>Inkstick\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-pimping-industry-deepfakes-instagram/\">Inside the Booming ‘AI Pimping’ Industry\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler and Emanuel Maiberg, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://kffhealthnews.org/health-industry/hhs-exchange-visitor-program-visa-waiver-j1-h1b-delays-foreign-doctors-deadline/\">Delays in Visa Program Threaten Placement of Hundreds of Doctors in Underserved Areas\u003c/a> — Arielle Zionts, \u003cem>KFF Health News \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2026/06/11/white-house-wants-more-doctors-but-its-immigration-policies-block-them/\">White House Wants More Doctors But Its Immigration Policies Block Them\u003c/a> — Stuart Anderson, \u003cem>Forbes\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/foreign-medical-residents-fill-critical-positions-at-u-s-hospitals-but-many-now-face-visa-issues\">Foreign medical residents fill critical positions at U.S. hospitals, but many now face visa issues\u003c/a> — Adithi Ramakrishnan and Devi Shastri, \u003cem>PBS News\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.business-standard.com/immigration/indians-lead-uk-exit-wave-as-britain-s-migration-crackdown-begins-to-bite-126052200275_1.html\">Indians lead UK exit wave as Britain’s migration crackdown begins to bite | Immigration News\u003c/a> — Sunainaa Chadha, \u003cem>Business Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do they help you learn about all the chronically online things you’re too scared to Google at work? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. So this is actually the second part of our series on the saga of Emily Hart, an AI MAGA influencer, and Sam, the guy who created her. If you haven’t heard part one yet, check out last week’s episode. And just a heads up, this episode contains mentions of explicit sexual content. So listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We first met Sam in last week episode. He’s a 22 year old medical student from India, and he had been chasing side hustles in order to make extra cash while in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I needed some extra pocket money. I started first with YouTube shorts. I started making AI horror shorts, then Roblox, but like it didn’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was by far his most lucrative venture. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Emily Hart] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Hey, handsome, in this private ward, there are no supervisors and no rules. Just me, you, and whatever happens when these scrubs finally come off. \u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She was the MAGA dream girl. And she was completely AI-generated. She rapidly gained a following thanks to her Trump-supporting thirst traps. Every time Sam posted images of her ice fishing, shooting rifles, drinking beer, complete with an American flag bikini and bright red MAGA hat, her fans went wild. In just a few weeks, Emily had 15,000 followers on Instagram, over 20 million views on Reels and a small army of subscribers on FanView. That’s a site kind of like OnlyFans. And these guys literally paid to DM her. Well, really, paid to DM Sam. They didn’t know it was him, but they also didn’t seem to care that Emily wasn’t real. Sam was making a couple thousand dollars a month, so he wasn’t quite rolling in it, but that’s really good money for a student in India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Initially, I enjoyed it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What made it at less enjoyable for you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Actually it was a bit strange. It was a bit creepy like other male is talking to me in like, that way. It felt weird. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was getting sick of it. It started with the unsolicited dick pics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the unsolicited cum tributes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I’m like, what the hell is this guy doing? He sent me the video. And I was like, people do all these weird things. Like, it was super creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily, who was really Sam, was dealing with some real creeps. Like, there is this one guy who wouldn’t stop harassing her account. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>He used to call me. He used to call me on Instagram, he used to like, call me 10 times, like, ‘why aren’t you picking up? You shouldn’t disrespect someone like that,’ like, I muted him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When Sam ignored him, the guy sent a nude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>After like 10 missed calls, he just sent that pic. I was like, Why are you sending it? Like, are you thinking that seeing this, I will call you or something? As a male, I can say like, many males are like, super creepy and I hate such men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that was just the start of it. Emily Hart was a success, but Sam was starting to get uncomfortable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like my DMs are filled every day, I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then… Instagram flagged Emily’s account, and that was the beginning of the end. Today, we’re diving into the rest of Sam’s story, from the Instagram bans to the scammer accusations to what happened with his lifelong dream of moving to America. And we’ll take a look at some other AI grifts as we try to answer the big question. Is it fair to call Sam a scammer? Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Before we get into the other questions, let’s talk about the rest of Emily’s story. Unfortunately, her ending is not a happy one. That’s our first half: the death of Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the peak of her popularity, Emily Hart was gaining about 2,000 followers a day. Sam was on top of the world. But then Instagram started picking up on some suspicious behavior in Emily’s DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So like initially, like Instagram, I used to message people. I didn’t do that. Instagram reads all the DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Not only does Instagram monitor DMs, but it also does not allow adult content. And it doesn’t allow users to advertise adult content Even mentioning OnlyFans can get you banned. Sex workers usually bury links to their paywalled explicit content within a sea of other links, three or four clicks deep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t know that, I sent a link to my Fanvue personally in DM, and like Instagram flagged my account instantly, like within 5-10 minutes, my account got flagged, it got banned, like I cannot use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Panicked, Sam got in touch with Meta and appealed the ban. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They asked for my personal ID and my mobile number, my email, all my personal information. And like my account got recovered the next day. And then it was flagged again, like two, five days after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He wasn’t sure what triggered the second ban, but it could have been for a number of reasons. He didn’t disclose that the account was AI, which goes against Instagram’s policies. He avoided even mentioning Emily’s Fanvue, but Meta could have flagged her account anyway using data about Sam’s internet usage. That happens to human sex workers all the time. Sam appealed again and, again, managed to recover Emily’s account. But then, about a month later, on the night of Valentine’s Day…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> it was like, boom, it’s over, they deleted my account, they don’t even give me the reason. It was just written that you don’t follow our community guidelines, that’s why we are suspending your account. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But then Sam remembered one certain post. And if he hadn’t already racked up a history of bans, Meta may have let this one slide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was the death by a thousand cuts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Ej Dickson, who first reported the story for Wired. Well, the Instagram guidelines require that creators disclose whether or not their profiles are AI-generated, and he wasn’t kicked off for violating that. He was kicked off for basically leaning into MAGA hatred too much, which I kind of thought was funny in a really dark way. Like he posted something really racist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re not going to repeat what the post said, but here’s how Sam explained why he did it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t hate African American people like, but it’s generally like, MAGA people don’t like them as much. MAGA people were like, super racist. Okay? So like I thought that like if I make an racially inappropriate joke for like, I thought that people would appreciate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He girlbossed too close to the sun, basically. And that’s what got him kicked off, not the fact that it was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s audience loved Sam’s posts about deporting immigrants and demonizing abortion. But this went too far for even them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Instagram is basically racism app. It’s like, filled with racism. And like, people appreciate it in comment section. Like people make jokes of it. But one thing that was super surprising for me is that like when I posted it, like even the MAGA people like, no one supported me, not like, even a single guy supported me. And people were like this is straight out racism. And people mass reported that reel and it got my Threads account banned. So it was surprising for me that people didn’t entertain that racism. It felt good. Like, at least people are not like, that racist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam tried to appeal it, like he did with previous bans, but Emily Hart’s Instagram account was gone forever. It was particularly devastating because he had been chasing side hustles for months, and this was the one that finally paid off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I was super upset, like I tried many things, like 10 things, 15 things and finally there was a hope, like there is this thing that worked out for me. There is thing like, that I figured out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He didn’t have much time to dwell on it, though. The big entrance exam for Indian medical specialty programs was just a few months away, so he had to lock in and study. And then, he had to navigate a different kind of internet fame. Ej’s wired story about Emily Hart was published shortly after the final Instagram ban. And it became even more viral than Emily herself. Ej expected some backlash from the MAGA crowd. After all, the headline of her story was literally “This scammer used an AI-generated MAGA girl to grift super dumb men.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>But a really interesting thing happened after the story came out where even MAGA accounts were reposting it being like, ‘Good for this guy!’ Like, applauding his efforts to scam, basically. There were some people who were saying like, incredibly racist things about brown people, but in the same breath were like, but honestly, good for this guy. If this is what these guys are capable of, like,more of them should come over here. That was a sentiment I saw more than once. And it’s a disgusting sentiment, right? It’s a despicable sentiment, but I was very surprised to see that even the people who were being duped by this guy were applauding the level of grift that it took to dupe them. I mean, that’s what they were doing. There were a couple of people who were mad, but for the most part, they were like, this guy? Good for him, you know, game-recognize-game. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam also loved Ej’s story. He said he sent it to all of his friends. And even though his name and identity were kept anonymous, for a brief moment, he was kind of a celebrity online. This story was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from an episode of The View ] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Joy Behar: So-called MAGA men, they were drooling over a social media personality named Emily Hart, a cute little blonde who would post pro-Trump content and even send bikini photos if people paid for it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Fox and Friends] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Kurt ‘CyberGuy’ Knutsson: I mean, this is catfishing on steroids, period. And you can see why the guys fell for her. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from HOT 97 TV News] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: She is not real. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Wait, what? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is AI. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith:Oh, wow. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is A.I. Turns out this is a viral MAGA influencer and she was ran by a med student from India. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Oh, he’s so smart. So smart. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I read thousands of comments, and people were appreciating. Like, give this guy a green card. You know, give the guy a citizen. It’s an example of good Indian, we need them in the USA. And people were super appreciating like, that he’s just smart, MAGA are dumb. Like, it’s not his fault if people are dumb. It’s a super genius idea. I should have thought of that. It was a very positive reaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, he did have an issue with one part of the article. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>In the article headline, they called me a scammer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>To this day Sam insists that he never scammed anyone. He says it’s a racist assumption that all Indian people online are scammers. We’ll hear his case in a new tab. That’s for after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, what makes a scammer? Don’t go anywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: is Sam a scammer? After Ej’s story came out, people praised Sam as innovative and creative and a master of his craft. Even Trump supporters applauded his dedication to the hustle. Sam ate it up, but he was genuinely offended by the way everyone called him a scammer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t scam anyone. I disclosed people that they shouldn’t tip. I disclose people that they shouldn’t spend so much money on me. Like, didn’t have any bad intention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A scammer, according to Merriam-Webster, is someone who participates in a fraudulent scheme. Cambridge Dictionary- someone who makes money using illegal methods by tricking people. Wikipedia- someone defrauds a person or group after gaining their trust. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I just want to make some money. You can say it’s not ethical, but it’s not a scam, like I didn’t do anything, you can say, illegal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam technically didn’t defraud anyone. While Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI generated, Sam did disclose it to subscribers on Fanvue, where he was actually making money. He said he had plenty of opportunities to scam Emily Hart subscribers. Multiple fans had offered to pay her thousands of dollars to meet in person, but Sam said he never took the money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People were like, we will pay for your plane ticket and please just come to California. We will have a dinner. Let’s have a dinner together and all that. Like, I could have easily taken their money. Like, I would have easily sent them, you can say, Bitcoin or like some, you can say, crypto link, but like, I was like, super clear with that. Like, I will not do anything wrong. And I knew that like, I can’t meet them in real life. They will just waive their money and I didn’t want that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam felt that the money he earned selling Fanvue subscriptions and pay-per-view content was earned, even if it was through AI-generated softcore porn. He disclosed that the content was AI, and he was providing something in return for their money. But he wasn’t comfortable accepting direct tips from Emily’s subscribers. He even sent some tips back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>From New Jersey and like he was tipping me a lot and I wondered like why he’s tipping so much. I asked him like ‘why are you tipping me so much?’ He was tipping so much in hopes that I will meet him because my model was based in New York City and it was close to New Jersey so he was like, if I tip her so much, maybe she will come to meet me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Sam told the subscriber that Emily was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I returned all the tip money. Then I was like, if you want to cancel the subscription, it’s completely fine with me. He was like no, like he didn’t even take all of the tip back. Like he tipped me $10 and he was like that, it’s okay. And like I returned the rest of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was offended that he was being labeled a scammer,because in his eyes, if he had actually scammed people, he’d have a lot more money. He also said it feeds into some of the racist assumptions that many people online make about India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There is a stereotype for Indian people, like, all the Indian people are scammers. Like, I didn’t want to do that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India dominates the IT industry. The English-speaking world’s major tech support hubs are based in India. But as this booming market grew, the cyber scam economy exploded too. Callers often pose as tech support agents from Amazon or fraud investigators from major banks and persuade gullible victims to hand over remote access to their devices and accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, people in India, they scam them out of thousands of dollars and I really feel bad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s economic strain and rising unemployment rates are pushing more young people to work at cyber scam centers because no one else is hiring. And that has really affected Sam, especially when he tries to make friends online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>That hurt the Indian image so much that even like, I meet people online, I can’t even tell them that I am Indian. They straight out hate me. Like, you are a scammer, you know all that racial comments, and I am like, you haven’t even talked with me, you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He specifically tried to adhere to his own moral code with Emily Hart, in part because he’s aware of the scammer reputation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I absolutely hate that, like it ruins the image of my country and I don’t like it at all. So I am like that, I am doing this and I will do this as ethically as possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So yes, Sam did dupe conservative men into following Emily Hart’s Instagram account. And he did build a following using racist, xenophobic, and downright offensive content. But when it comes to the question of whether he’s a scammer, sure, he profited off of the MAGA fantasy of a woman that doesn’t exist, but there were lines he refused to cross. And if subscribers tried to tip him more than the $5 subscription fee, he’d remind them that Emily Hart wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The thing is, scamming is not a term in our legal system, unlike fraud and theft, which can be prosecuted. And Sam didn’t do either of those. So whether he’s a scammer is really a moral question. And we can’t really weigh in on that until we understand the other ways people are using AI to deceive and profit off of others. Which, of course, means opening a new tab: the AI Thirst Trap Griff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI models took off for the general public in the early 2020s. And since then, the grifts have been booming. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a spectrum of this, of the AI influencer grift, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej has been reporting on this a lot for Wired, tracking all the new developments in the AI-influencer world. The industry is thriving. It seems like there’s a new synthetic personality going viral every day. They dominate streaming charts with their AI-generated music. They represent brands as AI-generated models. They crank out YouTube videos and TikToks and Reels faster than any human influencer can. And, like Emily Hart, they even sell AI-generated nudes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think we’re at a point where low effort is being rewarded and there’s a premium put on it versus hard work. And like, there are a lot of especially younger people who think that the mark of success is basically making as much money with as little work as possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And there’s one trend in the AI influencer space that really freaks Ej out. So Emily Hart is not necessarily based on a real human being. Sam generated her from scratch by prompting Gemini. You could argue that Gemini was trained using real people’s photos, and that there’s a chance that someone out there does look like her. But that’s a conversation for another deep dive. What actually concerns Ej is this growing trend of using AI to modify real women’s photos and videos. And selling them on adult content sites, entirely without their consent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I did a story about these 19-year-old boys who had developed this side hustle of taking random girls’ photos from Instagram, like private citizens, people with 1,000, 2,000 followers, not models or anything like that, and using nudify apps and posting sexual content of them on sites like Fanvue. And they were literally making YouTube tutorials and teaching men how to do this and how to make these photos, like what types of girls’ photos they should feed into the model to train it. It was really, really dark. And I think that we are headed for a future where that’s gonna become more normalized than not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>YouTube is teeming with tutorials to get rich quick by using generative AI to make explicit content. Almost all of the tutorials are taught by men who are profiting off of AI content based on real women. Some people refer to this as digital pimping. Ej thinks that phrasing is actually too mild. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it’s digital exploitation. I think it is digital trafficking, essentially. These guys are really invested in creating a reality where women who do not consent to being sexualized at all can have anything they want done with their images. No matter how old they are, no matter where they work, what they do. These guys just use the internet as free reign to humiliate them, because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not about getting off. It’s about humiliation. It’s about the lack of consent is the point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then there’s this practice of using AI influencers as bait. Ej recently broke this big story about the gay dating app Goose. Goose was marketed as a wholesome social platform. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Basically positioning it as a competitor to Grindr, except it would be less casual sex and hookup focused and more focused on socializing and making friends and forming real human connections. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Goose deployed a small army of hot gay influencers to recruit other gay men. These influencers would follow gay guys and add them to their Close Friends story or slide into their DMs with a “hey, you seem cool.” And eventually, they’d send an invite code to Goose. All of these influencers were AI-generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That was a big part of their marketing strategy, is making these very believable looking hot guy accounts with like 300, 400, 500 followers who like, worked in very realistic jobs. Like, one of the guys said he worked for Strava, like, another one of guys said he worked for like, David Zwirner Gallery. And that’s really convincing. And I think it really messed with a lot of people’s perceptions of reality and their ability to discern what is AI and what isn’t. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej said she could understand why people fell for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>In order to get on Goose, because it’s invite only at this point, and you obviously have to be a gay man to join it, I made my own AI-generated hot guy influencer account. I was trying to make it really convincing. So I was like, give him beards, give him tattoos, like, make him live in Crown Heights, make him be like, a record producer/engineer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more that I was like, generating these photos and generating this guy’s biography, I was like, oh my God, I’ve made the hottest man in the world. Like, I would absolutely have sex with this. Honestly, and this is a huge compliment to my husband. Like, he looked a lot like my husband, so even I, like, for a split second, was kind of deceived by the too-good-to-be-true element of AI, at least momentarily. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Compared to other examples Ej just talked about, was what Sam did really that bad? There’s a spectrum of AI thirst trap grifts. Ultimately, Sam did profit off of Emily Hart, but was he causing harm to anyone? That’s less clear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And then on the other hand, you have those evil motherf*ckers who are posting YouTube tutorials to young men teaching them how to take some high school girls’ photo off of Instagram and run her through a nudify app and make money off that. And the technology is getting better every day. It’s just getting easier and easier and easier and easier to do. It took me five minutes to make my hot gay man thirst trap guy. For Goose, it took the guys who were posting those YouTube tutorials, they were saying it took them 10 minutes. I think six months ago, the question would have been is the juice worth the squeeze? And now, like, there is no squeeze, you know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, the squeeze is no longer worth it for Sam. After Emily Hart’s account was banned for good, Sam tried to make another. But he found that, somehow, Meta banded him too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Even now my phone is blacklisted. If I use another number it will be blacklisted. So I cannot even create an Instagram account. Even if it’s not for all this like, Like, I created another Instagram account for personal use stuff and it deletes it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As lucrative as Emily Hart was, Sam’s kind of over the whole thing anyway. He doesn’t want to deal with the creeps, and he’s tired of pretending to be racist for engagement. And he’s got other stuff going on in his life. He’s about to graduate from medical school. His whole university career, he dreamed of moving to the U.S. It was going to be his ticket out of India’s economic crisis and caste system. But, this whole ordeal with Emily Hart combined with other factors, has him second-guessing his life plan. That’s a new tab: should I move to America? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sam had mapped out his entire career strategy when he started university, making sure to check all the boxes required to land a residency match in the U.S., which is already competitive, but even more so for international students. But he was determined. The United States Medical Licensing Exam is an incredibly rigorous process. It’s split into three parts over multiple years. Step one, which students take during their first years of medical school, is eight hours long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I cleared it in my first attempt, like, you only get one chance and I cleared it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>According to his plan, he should be taking step two soon. But since clearing the first exam, he’s watched immigration to the U.S. Become more and more difficult under the Trump administration. And now he’s rethinking his plan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, Donald Trump has made it so difficult to, even if you’re talented, they don’t want you. Even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. He did like hundreds of policy changes, like, every day he wakes up, he do a policy change. It’s like, you know you can’t predict him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Trump administration’s immigration policies have wreaked havoc on the medical training system, from implementing strict time limits on visas for trainees, to stalling visa renewals for doctors who are already practicing here. There’s also the $100,000 entry fee for H-1B visa holders, which a lot of rural hospitals just can’t afford. And amid the constant flux in the White House’s policies, ICE officers have targeted, detained, and deported immigrants, even if their visas are still valid. Sam has watched it all unfold while finishing school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And one day, I was like, it’s enough, I give up, like, I don’t want to gamble with my future. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And, immigration policies aside, his interactions with Americans, as Emily Hart, have soured his opinion of the U.S. He did choose to pander to people who have extremely racist and xenophobic stances, and he did stoke these viewpoints with Emily’s content. But at the same time, it wasn’t lost on him that if these followers knew who he really was, he’d probably be the target of their vitriol too. He said that a lot of these interactions reinforced his beliefs about conservative America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but you know, stereotype doesn’t write themselves, okay? Like, stereotype exists for a reason. I learned that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So making it in America, the land of opportunity and Grand Theft Auto, is no longer Sam’s goal. He said many of his classmates feel the same way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Because of this, many of the talented people are going to countries like Japan, Germany, like, good European countries, like,even UAE. People are saying, don’t go to the United States. And even after all this, you have to face racism on that. It’s not worth it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam considered trying to get into a specialty training program in other English-speaking countries, but he’s not sure of that either. The political climates in those countries aren’t the most welcoming right now. The UK has tightened its visa pathways and increased restrictions for international workers. And Australia recently placed Indian students in the high-risk visa category. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, nobody is willing to accept Indians, but the sentiment is very anti-immigration right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam said a lot of young people would actually want to stay in India if it weren’t for the caste system and tanking job market. He said that the reservation system, which was designed to uplift the most oppressed castes, leaves the middle class to compete for opportunities with the ultra-wealthy. But despite all his gripes with his home country and his lifelong dream of getting out, he is actually planning to stay for now. He scrapped his U.S. Immigration plans. Instead, he’s been studying for the big national entrance exam for India’s medical post-grad programs. He’s sitting for it at the end of the month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It wasn’t worth it for Sam to maintain Emily Hart’s Fanvue without having an Instagram to direct traffic to it. But he does still need to make money. And since he’s studying six to eight hours a day on top of his clinical work, he doesn’t have time for a nine to five. A few weeks ago, Sam started working on what he calls a more ethical version of Emily Hart, helping brands create AI influencers to promote their products. He doubts it’ll be as financially rewarding as Emily Hart. It’s essentially a marketing gig, which he said was kind of boring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Emily was another level of fun, it was like, you know, you get an adrenaline rush every day, you see like 2000 followers are adding up, there are people tipping on you, there are are people that are going crazy for you, or like people are copying you. It was a whole different level of, you can say, fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But even if he could get around the meta ban, Sam has zero interest in attempting to create another Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> I used to think that you can, you know, easily make good amount of money effortlessly. All this AI creator and stuff didn’t take a lot of effort. It was hardly 15 to 30 minutes a day of work. And actually, it made a good amount of money. But what I concluded is that like, you cannot make a good amount money consistently without putting in effort. That’s my takeaway. If it feels too good to be true, then it is too good to be true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive into the saga of Emily Hart, and, more importantly, the story of the real guy who created her. Special thanks to Sam and Ej for sharing this with us. We have opened so many tabs for this series, but if you feel like you still need to open more, we’ll link to some further reading in the show notes. And as usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay. It’s finally time, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Lauren Yoon is our intern and was also the associate producer on this episode. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. This episode also includes clips from The View, Fox & Friends, and Hot 97. It also includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, I’ve tried a lot of things like trading bots, like stock market and stuff. I got good success in that, but then I lost a lot of money, I lost $1,000 in stock market, then I quit it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Emily Hart, the bikini-wearing right-wing AI influencer, had captured the hearts, minds and more of MAGA men online. But her creator, Sam, had grown sick of the creepy messages and unsolicited explicit photos he’d received from Emily’s adoring fans. And he was about to be outed as a “scammer.” In this follow-up to last week’s episode, we dig into the downfall of the MAGA dream girl, the explosion of AI “thirst” grifts and why Sam says he shouldn’t be labeled as a “scammer” at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Emily Hart, the bikini-wearing right-wing AI influencer, had captured the hearts, minds and more of MAGA men online. But her creator, Sam, had grown sick of the creepy messages and unsolicited explicit photos he’d received from Emily’s adoring fans. And he was about to be outed as a “scammer.” In this follow-up to last week’s episode, we dig into the downfall of the MAGA dream girl, the explosion of AI “thirst” grifts and why Sam says he shouldn’t be labeled as a “scammer” at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a>— Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/goose-a-new-gay-dating-app-appears-to-be-a-psyop/\">Goose, a New Gay Dating App, Appears to Be a Psyop\u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-pimping-industry-deepfakes-instagram/\">Inside the Booming ‘AI Pimping’ Industry\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler and Emanuel Maiberg, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/foreign-medical-residents-fill-critical-positions-at-u-s-hospitals-but-many-now-face-visa-issues\">Foreign medical residents fill critical positions at U.S. hospitals, but many now face visa issues\u003c/a> — Adithi Ramakrishnan and Devi Shastri, \u003cem>PBS News\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/foreign-medical-residents-fill-critical-positions-at-u-s-hospitals-but-many-now-face-visa-issues\">Foreign medical residents fill critical positions at U.S. hospitals, but many now face visa issues\u003c/a> — Adithi Ramakrishnan and Devi Shastri, \u003cem>PBS News\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.business-standard.com/immigration/indians-lead-uk-exit-wave-as-britain-s-migration-crackdown-begins-to-bite-126052200275_1.html\">Indians lead UK exit wave as Britain’s migration crackdown begins to bite | Immigration News\u003c/a> — Sunainaa Chadha, \u003cem>Business Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do they help you learn about all the chronically online things you’re too scared to Google at work? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. So this is actually the second part of our series on the saga of Emily Hart, an AI MAGA influencer, and Sam, the guy who created her. If you haven’t heard part one yet, check out last week’s episode. And just a heads up, this episode contains mentions of explicit sexual content. So listen with care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do they help you learn about all the chronically online things you’re too scared to Google at work? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. So this is actually the second part of our series on the saga of Emily Hart, an AI MAGA influencer, and Sam, the guy who created her. If you haven’t heard part one yet, check out last week’s episode. And just a heads up, this episode contains mentions of explicit sexual content. So listen with care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We first met Sam in last week episode. He’s a 22 year old medical student from India, and he had been chasing side hustles in order to make extra cash while in school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We first met Sam in last week episode. He’s a 22 year old medical student from India, and he had been chasing side hustles in order to make extra cash while in school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I needed some extra pocket money. I started first with YouTube shorts. I started making AI horror shorts, then Roblox, but like it didn’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I needed some extra pocket money. I started first with YouTube shorts. I started making AI horror shorts, then Roblox, but like it didn’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was by far his most lucrative venture. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was by far his most lucrative venture. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Emily Hart] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Hey, handsome, in this private ward, there are no supervisors and no rules. Just me, you, and whatever happens when these scrubs finally come off. \u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Emily Hart] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Hey, handsome, in this private ward, there are no supervisors and no rules. Just me, you, and whatever happens when these scrubs finally come off. \u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She was the MAGA dream girl. And she was completely AI-generated. She rapidly gained a following thanks to her Trump-supporting thirst traps. Every time Sam posted images of her ice fishing, shooting rifles, drinking beer, complete with an American flag bikini and bright red MAGA hat, her fans went wild. In just a few weeks, Emily had 15,000 followers on Instagram, over 20 million views on Reels and a small army of subscribers on FanView. That’s a site kind of like OnlyFans. And these guys literally paid to DM her. Well, really, paid to DM Sam. They didn’t know it was him, but they also didn’t seem to care that Emily wasn’t real. Sam was making a couple thousand dollars a month, so he wasn’t quite rolling in it, but that’s really good money for a student in India. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She was the MAGA dream girl. And she was completely AI-generated. She rapidly gained a following thanks to her Trump-supporting thirst traps. Every time Sam posted images of her ice fishing, shooting rifles, drinking beer, complete with an American flag bikini and bright red MAGA hat, her fans went wild. In just a few weeks, Emily had 15,000 followers on Instagram, over 20 million views on Reels and a small army of subscribers on FanView. That’s a site kind of like OnlyFans. And these guys literally paid to DM her. Well, really, paid to DM Sam. They didn’t know it was him, but they also didn’t seem to care that Emily wasn’t real. Sam was making a couple thousand dollars a month, so he wasn’t quite rolling in it, but that’s really good money for a student in India. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Initially, I enjoyed it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What made it at less enjoyable for you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Actually it was a bit strange. It was a bit creepy like other male is talking to me in like, that way. It felt weird. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Actually it was a bit strange. It was a bit creepy like other male is talking to me in like, that way. It felt weird. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was getting sick of it. It started with the unsolicited dick pics. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was getting sick of it. It started with the unsolicited dick pics. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the unsolicited cum tributes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the unsolicited cum tributes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I’m like, what the hell is this guy doing? He sent me the video. And I was like, people do all these weird things. Like, it was super creepy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I’m like, what the hell is this guy doing? He sent me the video. And I was like, people do all these weird things. Like, it was super creepy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily, who was really Sam, was dealing with some real creeps. Like, there is this one guy who wouldn’t stop harassing her account. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily, who was really Sam, was dealing with some real creeps. Like, there is this one guy who wouldn’t stop harassing her account. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>He used to call me. He used to call me on Instagram, he used to like, call me 10 times, like, ‘why aren’t you picking up? You shouldn’t disrespect someone like that,’ like, I muted him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>He used to call me. He used to call me on Instagram, he used to like, call me 10 times, like, ‘why aren’t you picking up? You shouldn’t disrespect someone like that,’ like, I muted him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When Sam ignored him, the guy sent a nude. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When Sam ignored him, the guy sent a nude. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>After like 10 missed calls, he just sent that pic. I was like, Why are you sending it? Like, are you thinking that seeing this, I will call you or something? As a male, I can say like, many males are like, super creepy and I hate such men. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>After like 10 missed calls, he just sent that pic. I was like, Why are you sending it? Like, are you thinking that seeing this, I will call you or something? As a male, I can say like, many males are like, super creepy and I hate such men. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that was just the start of it. Emily Hart was a success, but Sam was starting to get uncomfortable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that was just the start of it. Emily Hart was a success, but Sam was starting to get uncomfortable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like my DMs are filled every day, I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like my DMs are filled every day, I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then… Instagram flagged Emily’s account, and that was the beginning of the end. Today, we’re diving into the rest of Sam’s story, from the Instagram bans to the scammer accusations to what happened with his lifelong dream of moving to America. And we’ll take a look at some other AI grifts as we try to answer the big question. Is it fair to call Sam a scammer? Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then… Instagram flagged Emily’s account, and that was the beginning of the end. Today, we’re diving into the rest of Sam’s story, from the Instagram bans to the scammer accusations to what happened with his lifelong dream of moving to America. And we’ll take a look at some other AI grifts as we try to answer the big question. Is it fair to call Sam a scammer? Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Before we get into the other questions, let’s talk about the rest of Emily’s story. Unfortunately, her ending is not a happy one. That’s our first half: the death of Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Before we get into the other questions, let’s talk about the rest of Emily’s story. Unfortunately, her ending is not a happy one. That’s our first half: the death of Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the peak of her popularity, Emily Hart was gaining about 2,000 followers a day. Sam was on top of the world. But then Instagram started picking up on some suspicious behavior in Emily’s DMs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the peak of her popularity, Emily Hart was gaining about 2,000 followers a day. Sam was on top of the world. But then Instagram started picking up on some suspicious behavior in Emily’s DMs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So like initially, like Instagram, I used to message people. I didn’t do that. Instagram reads all the DMs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So like initially, like Instagram, I used to message people. I didn’t do that. Instagram reads all the DMs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Not only does Instagram monitor DMs, but it also does not allow adult content. And it doesn’t allow users to advertise adult content Even mentioning OnlyFans can get you banned. Sex workers usually bury links to their paywalled explicit content within a sea of other links, three or four clicks deep. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Not only does Instagram monitor DMs, but it also does not allow adult content. And it doesn’t allow users to advertise adult content Even mentioning OnlyFans can get you banned. Sex workers usually bury links to their paywalled explicit content within a sea of other links, three or four clicks deep. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t know that, I sent a link to my Fanvue personally in DM, and like Instagram flagged my account instantly, like within 5-10 minutes, my account got flagged, it got banned, like I cannot use it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t know that, I sent a link to my Fanvue personally in DM, and like Instagram flagged my account instantly, like within 5-10 minutes, my account got flagged, it got banned, like I cannot use it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Panicked, Sam got in touch with Meta and appealed the ban. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Panicked, Sam got in touch with Meta and appealed the ban. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They asked for my personal ID and my mobile number, my email, all my personal information. And like my account got recovered the next day. And then it was flagged again, like two, five days after. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They asked for my personal ID and my mobile number, my email, all my personal information. And like my account got recovered the next day. And then it was flagged again, like two, five days after. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He wasn’t sure what triggered the second ban, but it could have been for a number of reasons. He didn’t disclose that the account was AI, which goes against Instagram’s policies. He avoided even mentioning Emily’s Fanvue, but Meta could have flagged her account anyway using data about Sam’s internet usage. That happens to human sex workers all the time. Sam appealed again and, again, managed to recover Emily’s account. But then, about a month later, on the night of Valentine’s Day…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He wasn’t sure what triggered the second ban, but it could have been for a number of reasons. He didn’t disclose that the account was AI, which goes against Instagram’s policies. He avoided even mentioning Emily’s Fanvue, but Meta could have flagged her account anyway using data about Sam’s internet usage. That happens to human sex workers all the time. Sam appealed again and, again, managed to recover Emily’s account. But then, about a month later, on the night of Valentine’s Day…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> it was like, boom, it’s over, they deleted my account, they don’t even give me the reason. It was just written that you don’t follow our community guidelines, that’s why we are suspending your account. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> it was like, boom, it’s over, they deleted my account, they don’t even give me the reason. It was just written that you don’t follow our community guidelines, that’s why we are suspending your account. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But then Sam remembered one certain post. And if he hadn’t already racked up a history of bans, Meta may have let this one slide. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But then Sam remembered one certain post. And if he hadn’t already racked up a history of bans, Meta may have let this one slide. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was the death by a thousand cuts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Ej Dickson, who first reported the story for Wired. Well, the Instagram guidelines require that creators disclose whether or not their profiles are AI-generated, and he wasn’t kicked off for violating that. He was kicked off for basically leaning into MAGA hatred too much, which I kind of thought was funny in a really dark way. Like he posted something really racist.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Ej Dickson, who first reported the story for Wired. Well, the Instagram guidelines require that creators disclose whether or not their profiles are AI-generated, and he wasn’t kicked off for violating that. He was kicked off for basically leaning into MAGA hatred too much, which I kind of thought was funny in a really dark way. Like he posted something really racist.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re not going to repeat what the post said, but here’s how Sam explained why he did it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re not going to repeat what the post said, but here’s how Sam explained why he did it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t hate African American people like, but it’s generally like, MAGA people don’t like them as much. MAGA people were like, super racist. Okay? So like I thought that like if I make an racially inappropriate joke for like, I thought that people would appreciate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t hate African American people like, but it’s generally like, MAGA people don’t like them as much. MAGA people were like, super racist. Okay? So like I thought that like if I make an racially inappropriate joke for like, I thought that people would appreciate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He girlbossed too close to the sun, basically. And that’s what got him kicked off, not the fact that it was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He girlbossed too close to the sun, basically. And that’s what got him kicked off, not the fact that it was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s audience loved Sam’s posts about deporting immigrants and demonizing abortion. But this went too far for even them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s audience loved Sam’s posts about deporting immigrants and demonizing abortion. But this went too far for even them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Instagram is basically racism app. It’s like, filled with racism. And like, people appreciate it in comment section. Like people make jokes of it. But one thing that was super surprising for me is that like when I posted it, like even the MAGA people like, no one supported me, not like, even a single guy supported me. And people were like this is straight out racism. And people mass reported that reel and it got my Threads account banned. So it was surprising for me that people didn’t entertain that racism. It felt good. Like, at least people are not like, that racist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Instagram is basically racism app. It’s like, filled with racism. And like, people appreciate it in comment section. Like people make jokes of it. But one thing that was super surprising for me is that like when I posted it, like even the MAGA people like, no one supported me, not like, even a single guy supported me. And people were like this is straight out racism. And people mass reported that reel and it got my Threads account banned. So it was surprising for me that people didn’t entertain that racism. It felt good. Like, at least people are not like, that racist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam tried to appeal it, like he did with previous bans, but Emily Hart’s Instagram account was gone forever. It was particularly devastating because he had been chasing side hustles for months, and this was the one that finally paid off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam tried to appeal it, like he did with previous bans, but Emily Hart’s Instagram account was gone forever. It was particularly devastating because he had been chasing side hustles for months, and this was the one that finally paid off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I was super upset, like I tried many things, like 10 things, 15 things and finally there was a hope, like there is this thing that worked out for me. There is thing like, that I figured out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I was super upset, like I tried many things, like 10 things, 15 things and finally there was a hope, like there is this thing that worked out for me. There is thing like, that I figured out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He didn’t have much time to dwell on it, though. The big entrance exam for Indian medical specialty programs was just a few months away, so he had to lock in and study. And then, he had to navigate a different kind of internet fame. Ej’s wired story about Emily Hart was published shortly after the final Instagram ban. And it became even more viral than Emily herself. Ej expected some backlash from the MAGA crowd. After all, the headline of her story was literally “This scammer used an AI-generated MAGA girl to grift super dumb men.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He didn’t have much time to dwell on it, though. The big entrance exam for Indian medical specialty programs was just a few months away, so he had to lock in and study. And then, he had to navigate a different kind of internet fame. Ej’s wired story about Emily Hart was published shortly after the final Instagram ban. And it became even more viral than Emily herself. Ej expected some backlash from the MAGA crowd. After all, the headline of her story was literally “This scammer used an AI-generated MAGA girl to grift super dumb men.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>But a really interesting thing happened after the story came out where even MAGA accounts were reposting it being like, ‘Good for this guy!’ Like, applauding his efforts to scam, basically. There were some people who were saying like, incredibly racist things about brown people, but in the same breath were like, but honestly, good for this guy. If this is what these guys are capable of, like,more of them should come over here. That was a sentiment I saw more than once. And it’s a disgusting sentiment, right? It’s a despicable sentiment, but I was very surprised to see that even the people who were being duped by this guy were applauding the level of grift that it took to dupe them. I mean, that’s what they were doing. There were a couple of people who were mad, but for the most part, they were like, this guy? Good for him, you know, game-recognize-game. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>But a really interesting thing happened after the story came out where even MAGA accounts were reposting it being like, ‘Good for this guy!’ Like, applauding his efforts to scam, basically. There were some people who were saying like, incredibly racist things about brown people, but in the same breath were like, but honestly, good for this guy. If this is what these guys are capable of, like,more of them should come over here. That was a sentiment I saw more than once. And it’s a disgusting sentiment, right? It’s a despicable sentiment, but I was very surprised to see that even the people who were being duped by this guy were applauding the level of grift that it took to dupe them. I mean, that’s what they were doing. There were a couple of people who were mad, but for the most part, they were like, this guy? Good for him, you know, game-recognize-game. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam also loved Ej’s story. He said he sent it to all of his friends. And even though his name and identity were kept anonymous, for a brief moment, he was kind of a celebrity online. This story was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam also loved Ej’s story. He said he sent it to all of his friends. And even though his name and identity were kept anonymous, for a brief moment, he was kind of a celebrity online. This story was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from an episode of The View ] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Joy Behar: So-called MAGA men, they were drooling over a social media personality named Emily Hart, a cute little blonde who would post pro-Trump content and even send bikini photos if people paid for it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from an episode of The View ] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Joy Behar: So-called MAGA men, they were drooling over a social media personality named Emily Hart, a cute little blonde who would post pro-Trump content and even send bikini photos if people paid for it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Fox and Friends] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Kurt ‘CyberGuy’ Knutsson: I mean, this is catfishing on steroids, period. And you can see why the guys fell for her. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Fox and Friends] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Kurt ‘CyberGuy’ Knutsson: I mean, this is catfishing on steroids, period. And you can see why the guys fell for her. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from HOT 97 TV News] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: She is not real. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Wait, what? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is AI. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith:Oh, wow. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is A.I. Turns out this is a viral MAGA influencer and she was ran by a med student from India. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Oh, he’s so smart. So smart. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from HOT 97 TV News] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: She is not real. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Wait, what? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is AI. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith:Oh, wow. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is A.I. Turns out this is a viral MAGA influencer and she was ran by a med student from India. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Oh, he’s so smart. So smart. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I read thousands of comments, and people were appreciating. Like, give this guy a green card. You know, give the guy a citizen. It’s an example of good Indian, we need them in the USA. And people were super appreciating like, that he’s just smart, MAGA are dumb. Like, it’s not his fault if people are dumb. It’s a super genius idea. I should have thought of that. It was a very positive reaction. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I read thousands of comments, and people were appreciating. Like, give this guy a green card. You know, give the guy a citizen. It’s an example of good Indian, we need them in the USA. And people were super appreciating like, that he’s just smart, MAGA are dumb. Like, it’s not his fault if people are dumb. It’s a super genius idea. I should have thought of that. It was a very positive reaction. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, he did have an issue with one part of the article. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, he did have an issue with one part of the article. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>In the article headline, they called me a scammer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>In the article headline, they called me a scammer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>To this day Sam insists that he never scammed anyone. He says it’s a racist assumption that all Indian people online are scammers. We’ll hear his case in a new tab. That’s for after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, what makes a scammer? Don’t go anywhere. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>To this day Sam insists that he never scammed anyone. He says it’s a racist assumption that all Indian people online are scammers. We’ll hear his case in a new tab. That’s for after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, what makes a scammer? Don’t go anywhere. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: is Sam a scammer? After Ej’s story came out, people praised Sam as innovative and creative and a master of his craft. Even Trump supporters applauded his dedication to the hustle. Sam ate it up, but he was genuinely offended by the way everyone called him a scammer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: is Sam a scammer? After Ej’s story came out, people praised Sam as innovative and creative and a master of his craft. Even Trump supporters applauded his dedication to the hustle. Sam ate it up, but he was genuinely offended by the way everyone called him a scammer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t scam anyone. I disclosed people that they shouldn’t tip. I disclose people that they shouldn’t spend so much money on me. Like, didn’t have any bad intention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t scam anyone. I disclosed people that they shouldn’t tip. I disclose people that they shouldn’t spend so much money on me. Like, didn’t have any bad intention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A scammer, according to Merriam-Webster, is someone who participates in a fraudulent scheme. Cambridge Dictionary- someone who makes money using illegal methods by tricking people. Wikipedia- someone defrauds a person or group after gaining their trust. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A scammer, according to Merriam-Webster, is someone who participates in a fraudulent scheme. Cambridge Dictionary- someone who makes money using illegal methods by tricking people. Wikipedia- someone defrauds a person or group after gaining their trust. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I just want to make some money. You can say it’s not ethical, but it’s not a scam, like I didn’t do anything, you can say, illegal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I just want to make some money. You can say it’s not ethical, but it’s not a scam, like I didn’t do anything, you can say, illegal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam technically didn’t defraud anyone. While Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI generated, Sam did disclose it to subscribers on Fanvue, where he was actually making money. He said he had plenty of opportunities to scam Emily Hart subscribers. Multiple fans had offered to pay her thousands of dollars to meet in person, but Sam said he never took the money. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam technically didn’t defraud anyone. While Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI generated, Sam did disclose it to subscribers on Fanvue, where he was actually making money. He said he had plenty of opportunities to scam Emily Hart subscribers. Multiple fans had offered to pay her thousands of dollars to meet in person, but Sam said he never took the money. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People were like, we will pay for your plane ticket and please just come to California. We will have a dinner. Let’s have a dinner together and all that. Like, I could have easily taken their money. Like, I would have easily sent them, you can say, Bitcoin or like some, you can say, crypto link, but like, I was like, super clear with that. Like, I will not do anything wrong. And I knew that like, I can’t meet them in real life. They will just waive their money and I didn’t want that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People were like, we will pay for your plane ticket and please just come to California. We will have a dinner. Let’s have a dinner together and all that. Like, I could have easily taken their money. Like, I would have easily sent them, you can say, Bitcoin or like some, you can say, crypto link, but like, I was like, super clear with that. Like, I will not do anything wrong. And I knew that like, I can’t meet them in real life. They will just waive their money and I didn’t want that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam felt that the money he earned selling Fanvue subscriptions and pay-per-view content was earned, even if it was through AI-generated softcore porn. He disclosed that the content was AI, and he was providing something in return for their money. But he wasn’t comfortable accepting direct tips from Emily’s subscribers. He even sent some tips back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam felt that the money he earned selling Fanvue subscriptions and pay-per-view content was earned, even if it was through AI-generated softcore porn. He disclosed that the content was AI, and he was providing something in return for their money. But he wasn’t comfortable accepting direct tips from Emily’s subscribers. He even sent some tips back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>From New Jersey and like he was tipping me a lot and I wondered like why he’s tipping so much. I asked him like ‘why are you tipping me so much?’ He was tipping so much in hopes that I will meet him because my model was based in New York City and it was close to New Jersey so he was like, if I tip her so much, maybe she will come to meet me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>From New Jersey and like he was tipping me a lot and I wondered like why he’s tipping so much. I asked him like ‘why are you tipping me so much?’ He was tipping so much in hopes that I will meet him because my model was based in New York City and it was close to New Jersey so he was like, if I tip her so much, maybe she will come to meet me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Sam told the subscriber that Emily was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Sam told the subscriber that Emily was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I returned all the tip money. Then I was like, if you want to cancel the subscription, it’s completely fine with me. He was like no, like he didn’t even take all of the tip back. Like he tipped me $10 and he was like that, it’s okay. And like I returned the rest of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I returned all the tip money. Then I was like, if you want to cancel the subscription, it’s completely fine with me. He was like no, like he didn’t even take all of the tip back. Like he tipped me $10 and he was like that, it’s okay. And like I returned the rest of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was offended that he was being labeled a scammer,because in his eyes, if he had actually scammed people, he’d have a lot more money. He also said it feeds into some of the racist assumptions that many people online make about India. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was offended that he was being labeled a scammer,because in his eyes, if he had actually scammed people, he’d have a lot more money. He also said it feeds into some of the racist assumptions that many people online make about India. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There is a stereotype for Indian people, like, all the Indian people are scammers. Like, I didn’t want to do that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There is a stereotype for Indian people, like, all the Indian people are scammers. Like, I didn’t want to do that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India dominates the IT industry. The English-speaking world’s major tech support hubs are based in India. But as this booming market grew, the cyber scam economy exploded too. Callers often pose as tech support agents from Amazon or fraud investigators from major banks and persuade gullible victims to hand over remote access to their devices and accounts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India dominates the IT industry. The English-speaking world’s major tech support hubs are based in India. But as this booming market grew, the cyber scam economy exploded too. Callers often pose as tech support agents from Amazon or fraud investigators from major banks and persuade gullible victims to hand over remote access to their devices and accounts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, people in India, they scam them out of thousands of dollars and I really feel bad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, people in India, they scam them out of thousands of dollars and I really feel bad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s economic strain and rising unemployment rates are pushing more young people to work at cyber scam centers because no one else is hiring. And that has really affected Sam, especially when he tries to make friends online. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s economic strain and rising unemployment rates are pushing more young people to work at cyber scam centers because no one else is hiring. And that has really affected Sam, especially when he tries to make friends online. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>That hurt the Indian image so much that even like, I meet people online, I can’t even tell them that I am Indian. They straight out hate me. Like, you are a scammer, you know all that racial comments, and I am like, you haven’t even talked with me, you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>That hurt the Indian image so much that even like, I meet people online, I can’t even tell them that I am Indian. They straight out hate me. Like, you are a scammer, you know all that racial comments, and I am like, you haven’t even talked with me, you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He specifically tried to adhere to his own moral code with Emily Hart, in part because he’s aware of the scammer reputation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He specifically tried to adhere to his own moral code with Emily Hart, in part because he’s aware of the scammer reputation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I absolutely hate that, like it ruins the image of my country and I don’t like it at all. So I am like that, I am doing this and I will do this as ethically as possible. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I absolutely hate that, like it ruins the image of my country and I don’t like it at all. So I am like that, I am doing this and I will do this as ethically as possible. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So yes, Sam did dupe conservative men into following Emily Hart’s Instagram account. And he did build a following using racist, xenophobic, and downright offensive content. But when it comes to the question of whether he’s a scammer, sure, he profited off of the MAGA fantasy of a woman that doesn’t exist, but there were lines he refused to cross. And if subscribers tried to tip him more than the $5 subscription fee, he’d remind them that Emily Hart wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So yes, Sam did dupe conservative men into following Emily Hart’s Instagram account. And he did build a following using racist, xenophobic, and downright offensive content. But when it comes to the question of whether he’s a scammer, sure, he profited off of the MAGA fantasy of a woman that doesn’t exist, but there were lines he refused to cross. And if subscribers tried to tip him more than the $5 subscription fee, he’d remind them that Emily Hart wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The thing is, scamming is not a term in our legal system, unlike fraud and theft, which can be prosecuted. And Sam didn’t do either of those. So whether he’s a scammer is really a moral question. And we can’t really weigh in on that until we understand the other ways people are using AI to deceive and profit off of others. Which, of course, means opening a new tab: the AI Thirst Trap Griff. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The thing is, scamming is not a term in our legal system, unlike fraud and theft, which can be prosecuted. And Sam didn’t do either of those. So whether he’s a scammer is really a moral question. And we can’t really weigh in on that until we understand the other ways people are using AI to deceive and profit off of others. Which, of course, means opening a new tab: the AI Thirst Trap Griff. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>AI models took off for the general public in the early 2020s. And since then, the grifts have been booming. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>AI models took off for the general public in the early 2020s. And since then, the grifts have been booming. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a spectrum of this, of the AI influencer grift, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a spectrum of this, of the AI influencer grift, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej has been reporting on this a lot for Wired, tracking all the new developments in the AI-influencer world. The industry is thriving. It seems like there’s a new synthetic personality going viral every day. They dominate streaming charts with their AI-generated music. They represent brands as AI-generated models. They crank out YouTube videos and TikToks and Reels faster than any human influencer can. And, like Emily Hart, they even sell AI-generated nudes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej has been reporting on this a lot for Wired, tracking all the new developments in the AI-influencer world. The industry is thriving. It seems like there’s a new synthetic personality going viral every day. They dominate streaming charts with their AI-generated music. They represent brands as AI-generated models. They crank out YouTube videos and TikToks and Reels faster than any human influencer can. And, like Emily Hart, they even sell AI-generated nudes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think we’re at a point where low effort is being rewarded and there’s a premium put on it versus hard work. And like, there are a lot of especially younger people who think that the mark of success is basically making as much money with as little work as possible. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think we’re at a point where low effort is being rewarded and there’s a premium put on it versus hard work. And like, there are a lot of especially younger people who think that the mark of success is basically making as much money with as little work as possible. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And there’s one trend in the AI influencer space that really freaks Ej out. So Emily Hart is not necessarily based on a real human being. Sam generated her from scratch by prompting Gemini. You could argue that Gemini was trained using real people’s photos, and that there’s a chance that someone out there does look like her. But that’s a conversation for another deep dive. What actually concerns Ej is this growing trend of using AI to modify real women’s photos and videos. And selling them on adult content sites, entirely without their consent. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And there’s one trend in the AI influencer space that really freaks Ej out. So Emily Hart is not necessarily based on a real human being. Sam generated her from scratch by prompting Gemini. You could argue that Gemini was trained using real people’s photos, and that there’s a chance that someone out there does look like her. But that’s a conversation for another deep dive. What actually concerns Ej is this growing trend of using AI to modify real women’s photos and videos. And selling them on adult content sites, entirely without their consent. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I did a story about these 19-year-old boys who had developed this side hustle of taking random girls’ photos from Instagram, like private citizens, people with 1,000, 2,000 followers, not models or anything like that, and using nudify apps and posting sexual content of them on sites like Fanvue. And they were literally making YouTube tutorials and teaching men how to do this and how to make these photos, like what types of girls’ photos they should feed into the model to train it. It was really, really dark. And I think that we are headed for a future where that’s gonna become more normalized than not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I did a story about these 19-year-old boys who had developed this side hustle of taking random girls’ photos from Instagram, like private citizens, people with 1,000, 2,000 followers, not models or anything like that, and using nudify apps and posting sexual content of them on sites like Fanvue. And they were literally making YouTube tutorials and teaching men how to do this and how to make these photos, like what types of girls’ photos they should feed into the model to train it. It was really, really dark. And I think that we are headed for a future where that’s gonna become more normalized than not. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>YouTube is teeming with tutorials to get rich quick by using generative AI to make explicit content. Almost all of the tutorials are taught by men who are profiting off of AI content based on real women. Some people refer to this as digital pimping. Ej thinks that phrasing is actually too mild. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>YouTube is teeming with tutorials to get rich quick by using generative AI to make explicit content. Almost all of the tutorials are taught by men who are profiting off of AI content based on real women. Some people refer to this as digital pimping. Ej thinks that phrasing is actually too mild. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it’s digital exploitation. I think it is digital trafficking, essentially. These guys are really invested in creating a reality where women who do not consent to being sexualized at all can have anything they want done with their images. No matter how old they are, no matter where they work, what they do. These guys just use the internet as free reign to humiliate them, because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not about getting off. It’s about humiliation. It’s about the lack of consent is the point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it’s digital exploitation. I think it is digital trafficking, essentially. These guys are really invested in creating a reality where women who do not consent to being sexualized at all can have anything they want done with their images. No matter how old they are, no matter where they work, what they do. These guys just use the internet as free reign to humiliate them, because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not about getting off. It’s about humiliation. It’s about the lack of consent is the point. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then there’s this practice of using AI influencers as bait. Ej recently broke this big story about the gay dating app Goose. Goose was marketed as a wholesome social platform. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then there’s this practice of using AI influencers as bait. Ej recently broke this big story about the gay dating app Goose. Goose was marketed as a wholesome social platform. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Basically positioning it as a competitor to Grindr, except it would be less casual sex and hookup focused and more focused on socializing and making friends and forming real human connections. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Basically positioning it as a competitor to Grindr, except it would be less casual sex and hookup focused and more focused on socializing and making friends and forming real human connections. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Goose deployed a small army of hot gay influencers to recruit other gay men. These influencers would follow gay guys and add them to their Close Friends story or slide into their DMs with a “hey, you seem cool.” And eventually, they’d send an invite code to Goose. All of these influencers were AI-generated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Goose deployed a small army of hot gay influencers to recruit other gay men. These influencers would follow gay guys and add them to their Close Friends story or slide into their DMs with a “hey, you seem cool.” And eventually, they’d send an invite code to Goose. All of these influencers were AI-generated. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That was a big part of their marketing strategy, is making these very believable looking hot guy accounts with like 300, 400, 500 followers who like, worked in very realistic jobs. Like, one of the guys said he worked for Strava, like, another one of guys said he worked for like, David Zwirner Gallery. And that’s really convincing. And I think it really messed with a lot of people’s perceptions of reality and their ability to discern what is AI and what isn’t. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That was a big part of their marketing strategy, is making these very believable looking hot guy accounts with like 300, 400, 500 followers who like, worked in very realistic jobs. Like, one of the guys said he worked for Strava, like, another one of guys said he worked for like, David Zwirner Gallery. And that’s really convincing. And I think it really messed with a lot of people’s perceptions of reality and their ability to discern what is AI and what isn’t. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej said she could understand why people fell for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej said she could understand why people fell for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>In order to get on Goose, because it’s invite only at this point, and you obviously have to be a gay man to join it, I made my own AI-generated hot guy influencer account. I was trying to make it really convincing. So I was like, give him beards, give him tattoos, like, make him live in Crown Heights, make him be like, a record producer/engineer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>In order to get on Goose, because it’s invite only at this point, and you obviously have to be a gay man to join it, I made my own AI-generated hot guy influencer account. I was trying to make it really convincing. So I was like, give him beards, give him tattoos, like, make him live in Crown Heights, make him be like, a record producer/engineer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the more that I was like, generating these photos and generating this guy’s biography, I was like, oh my God, I’ve made the hottest man in the world. Like, I would absolutely have sex with this. Honestly, and this is a huge compliment to my husband. Like, he looked a lot like my husband, so even I, like, for a split second, was kind of deceived by the too-good-to-be-true element of AI, at least momentarily. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the more that I was like, generating these photos and generating this guy’s biography, I was like, oh my God, I’ve made the hottest man in the world. Like, I would absolutely have sex with this. Honestly, and this is a huge compliment to my husband. Like, he looked a lot like my husband, so even I, like, for a split second, was kind of deceived by the too-good-to-be-true element of AI, at least momentarily. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Compared to other examples Ej just talked about, was what Sam did really that bad? There’s a spectrum of AI thirst trap grifts. Ultimately, Sam did profit off of Emily Hart, but was he causing harm to anyone? That’s less clear. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Compared to other examples Ej just talked about, was what Sam did really that bad? There’s a spectrum of AI thirst trap grifts. Ultimately, Sam did profit off of Emily Hart, but was he causing harm to anyone? That’s less clear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And then on the other hand, you have those evil motherf*ckers who are posting YouTube tutorials to young men teaching them how to take some high school girls’ photo off of Instagram and run her through a nudify app and make money off that. And the technology is getting better every day. It’s just getting easier and easier and easier and easier to do. It took me five minutes to make my hot gay man thirst trap guy. For Goose, it took the guys who were posting those YouTube tutorials, they were saying it took them 10 minutes. I think six months ago, the question would have been is the juice worth the squeeze? And now, like, there is no squeeze, you know? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And then on the other hand, you have those evil motherf*ckers who are posting YouTube tutorials to young men teaching them how to take some high school girls’ photo off of Instagram and run her through a nudify app and make money off that. And the technology is getting better every day. It’s just getting easier and easier and easier and easier to do. It took me five minutes to make my hot gay man thirst trap guy. For Goose, it took the guys who were posting those YouTube tutorials, they were saying it took them 10 minutes. I think six months ago, the question would have been is the juice worth the squeeze? And now, like, there is no squeeze, you know? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, the squeeze is no longer worth it for Sam. After Emily Hart’s account was banned for good, Sam tried to make another. But he found that, somehow, Meta banded him too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, the squeeze is no longer worth it for Sam. After Emily Hart’s account was banned for good, Sam tried to make another. But he found that, somehow, Meta banded him too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Even now my phone is blacklisted. If I use another number it will be blacklisted. So I cannot even create an Instagram account. Even if it’s not for all this like, Like, I created another Instagram account for personal use stuff and it deletes it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Even now my phone is blacklisted. If I use another number it will be blacklisted. So I cannot even create an Instagram account. Even if it’s not for all this like, Like, I created another Instagram account for personal use stuff and it deletes it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As lucrative as Emily Hart was, Sam’s kind of over the whole thing anyway. He doesn’t want to deal with the creeps, and he’s tired of pretending to be racist for engagement. And he’s got other stuff going on in his life. He’s about to graduate from medical school. His whole university career, he dreamed of moving to the U.S. It was going to be his ticket out of India’s economic crisis and caste system. But, this whole ordeal with Emily Hart combined with other factors, has him second-guessing his life plan. That’s a new tab: should I move to America? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As lucrative as Emily Hart was, Sam’s kind of over the whole thing anyway. He doesn’t want to deal with the creeps, and he’s tired of pretending to be racist for engagement. And he’s got other stuff going on in his life. He’s about to graduate from medical school. His whole university career, he dreamed of moving to the U.S. It was going to be his ticket out of India’s economic crisis and caste system. But, this whole ordeal with Emily Hart combined with other factors, has him second-guessing his life plan. That’s a new tab: should I move to America? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sam had mapped out his entire career strategy when he started university, making sure to check all the boxes required to land a residency match in the U.S., which is already competitive, but even more so for international students. But he was determined. The United States Medical Licensing Exam is an incredibly rigorous process. It’s split into three parts over multiple years. Step one, which students take during their first years of medical school, is eight hours long. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sam had mapped out his entire career strategy when he started university, making sure to check all the boxes required to land a residency match in the U.S., which is already competitive, but even more so for international students. But he was determined. The United States Medical Licensing Exam is an incredibly rigorous process. It’s split into three parts over multiple years. Step one, which students take during their first years of medical school, is eight hours long. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I cleared it in my first attempt, like, you only get one chance and I cleared it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I cleared it in my first attempt, like, you only get one chance and I cleared it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>According to his plan, he should be taking step two soon. But since clearing the first exam, he’s watched immigration to the U.S. Become more and more difficult under the Trump administration. And now he’s rethinking his plan. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>According to his plan, he should be taking step two soon. But since clearing the first exam, he’s watched immigration to the U.S. Become more and more difficult under the Trump administration. And now he’s rethinking his plan. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, Donald Trump has made it so difficult to, even if you’re talented, they don’t want you. Even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. He did like hundreds of policy changes, like, every day he wakes up, he do a policy change. It’s like, you know you can’t predict him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, Donald Trump has made it so difficult to, even if you’re talented, they don’t want you. Even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. He did like hundreds of policy changes, like, every day he wakes up, he do a policy change. It’s like, you know you can’t predict him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Trump administration’s immigration policies have wreaked havoc on the medical training system, from implementing strict time limits on visas for trainees, to stalling visa renewals for doctors who are already practicing here. There’s also the $100,000 entry fee for H-1B visa holders, which a lot of rural hospitals just can’t afford. And amid the constant flux in the White House’s policies, ICE officers have targeted, detained, and deported immigrants, even if their visas are still valid. Sam has watched it all unfold while finishing school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Trump administration’s immigration policies have wreaked havoc on the medical training system, from implementing strict time limits on visas for trainees, to stalling visa renewals for doctors who are already practicing here. There’s also the $100,000 entry fee for H-1B visa holders, which a lot of rural hospitals just can’t afford. And amid the constant flux in the White House’s policies, ICE officers have targeted, detained, and deported immigrants, even if their visas are still valid. Sam has watched it all unfold while finishing school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And one day, I was like, it’s enough, I give up, like, I don’t want to gamble with my future. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And, immigration policies aside, his interactions with Americans, as Emily Hart, have soured his opinion of the U.S. He did choose to pander to people who have extremely racist and xenophobic stances, and he did stoke these viewpoints with Emily’s content. But at the same time, it wasn’t lost on him that if these followers knew who he really was, he’d probably be the target of their vitriol too. He said that a lot of these interactions reinforced his beliefs about conservative America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And, immigration policies aside, his interactions with Americans, as Emily Hart, have soured his opinion of the U.S. He did choose to pander to people who have extremely racist and xenophobic stances, and he did stoke these viewpoints with Emily’s content. But at the same time, it wasn’t lost on him that if these followers knew who he really was, he’d probably be the target of their vitriol too. He said that a lot of these interactions reinforced his beliefs about conservative America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but you know, stereotype doesn’t write themselves, okay? Like, stereotype exists for a reason. I learned that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but you know, stereotype doesn’t write themselves, okay? Like, stereotype exists for a reason. I learned that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So making it in America, the land of opportunity and Grand Theft Auto, is no longer Sam’s goal. He said many of his classmates feel the same way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So making it in America, the land of opportunity and Grand Theft Auto, is no longer Sam’s goal. He said many of his classmates feel the same way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Because of this, many of the talented people are going to countries like Japan, Germany, like, good European countries, like,even UAE. People are saying, don’t go to the United States. And even after all this, you have to face racism on that. It’s not worth it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Because of this, many of the talented people are going to countries like Japan, Germany, like, good European countries, like,even UAE. People are saying, don’t go to the United States. And even after all this, you have to face racism on that. It’s not worth it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam considered trying to get into a specialty training program in other English-speaking countries, but he’s not sure of that either. The political climates in those countries aren’t the most welcoming right now. The UK has tightened its visa pathways and increased restrictions for international workers. And Australia recently placed Indian students in the high-risk visa category. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam considered trying to get into a specialty training program in other English-speaking countries, but he’s not sure of that either. The political climates in those countries aren’t the most welcoming right now. The UK has tightened its visa pathways and increased restrictions for international workers. And Australia recently placed Indian students in the high-risk visa category. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, nobody is willing to accept Indians, but the sentiment is very anti-immigration right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam said a lot of young people would actually want to stay in India if it weren’t for the caste system and tanking job market. He said that the reservation system, which was designed to uplift the most oppressed castes, leaves the middle class to compete for opportunities with the ultra-wealthy. But despite all his gripes with his home country and his lifelong dream of getting out, he is actually planning to stay for now. He scrapped his U.S. Immigration plans. Instead, he’s been studying for the big national entrance exam for India’s medical post-grad programs. He’s sitting for it at the end of the month. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam said a lot of young people would actually want to stay in India if it weren’t for the caste system and tanking job market. He said that the reservation system, which was designed to uplift the most oppressed castes, leaves the middle class to compete for opportunities with the ultra-wealthy. But despite all his gripes with his home country and his lifelong dream of getting out, he is actually planning to stay for now. He scrapped his U.S. Immigration plans. Instead, he’s been studying for the big national entrance exam for India’s medical post-grad programs. He’s sitting for it at the end of the month. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It wasn’t worth it for Sam to maintain Emily Hart’s Fanvue without having an Instagram to direct traffic to it. But he does still need to make money. And since he’s studying six to eight hours a day on top of his clinical work, he doesn’t have time for a nine to five. A few weeks ago, Sam started working on what he calls a more ethical version of Emily Hart, helping brands create AI influencers to promote their products. He doubts it’ll be as financially rewarding as Emily Hart. It’s essentially a marketing gig, which he said was kind of boring. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It wasn’t worth it for Sam to maintain Emily Hart’s Fanvue without having an Instagram to direct traffic to it. But he does still need to make money. And since he’s studying six to eight hours a day on top of his clinical work, he doesn’t have time for a nine to five. A few weeks ago, Sam started working on what he calls a more ethical version of Emily Hart, helping brands create AI influencers to promote their products. He doubts it’ll be as financially rewarding as Emily Hart. It’s essentially a marketing gig, which he said was kind of boring. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Emily was another level of fun, it was like, you know, you get an adrenaline rush every day, you see like 2000 followers are adding up, there are people tipping on you, there are are people that are going crazy for you, or like people are copying you. It was a whole different level of, you can say, fun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Emily was another level of fun, it was like, you know, you get an adrenaline rush every day, you see like 2000 followers are adding up, there are people tipping on you, there are are people that are going crazy for you, or like people are copying you. It was a whole different level of, you can say, fun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But even if he could get around the meta ban, Sam has zero interest in attempting to create another Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But even if he could get around the meta ban, Sam has zero interest in attempting to create another Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> I used to think that you can, you know, easily make good amount of money effortlessly. All this AI creator and stuff didn’t take a lot of effort. It was hardly 15 to 30 minutes a day of work. And actually, it made a good amount of money. But what I concluded is that like, you cannot make a good amount money consistently without putting in effort. That’s my takeaway. If it feels too good to be true, then it is too good to be true.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> I used to think that you can, you know, easily make good amount of money effortlessly. All this AI creator and stuff didn’t take a lot of effort. It was hardly 15 to 30 minutes a day of work. And actually, it made a good amount of money. But what I concluded is that like, you cannot make a good amount money consistently without putting in effort. That’s my takeaway. If it feels too good to be true, then it is too good to be true.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive into the saga of Emily Hart, and, more importantly, the story of the real guy who created her. Special thanks to Sam and Ej for sharing this with us. We have opened so many tabs for this series, but if you feel like you still need to open more, we’ll link to some further reading in the show notes. And as usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay. It’s finally time, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive into the saga of Emily Hart, and, more importantly, the story of the real guy who created her. Special thanks to Sam and Ej for sharing this with us. We have opened so many tabs for this series, but if you feel like you still need to open more, we’ll link to some further reading in the show notes. And as usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay. It’s finally time, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Lauren Yoon is our intern and was also the associate producer on this episode. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. This episode also includes clips from The View, Fox & Friends, and Hot 97. It also includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Lauren Yoon is our intern and was also the associate producer on this episode. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. This episode also includes clips from The View, Fox & Friends, and Hot 97. It also includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, I’ve tried a lot of things like trading bots, like stock market and stuff. I got good success in that, but then I lost a lot of money, I lost $1,000 in stock market, then I quit it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The downfall of a MAGA dream girl and the rise of an industry built around generating fake influencers.",
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"title": "The Emily Hart Saga, Part 2: The AI Thirst Trap Grift | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Emily Hart, the bikini-wearing right-wing AI influencer, had captured the hearts, minds and more of MAGA men online. But her creator, Sam, had grown sick of the creepy messages and unsolicited explicit photos he’d received from Emily’s adoring fans. And he was about to be outed as a “scammer.” In this follow-up to last week’s episode, we dig into the downfall of the MAGA dream girl, the explosion of AI “thirst” grifts and why Sam says he shouldn’t be labeled as a “scammer” at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2485498705\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a>— Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/goose-a-new-gay-dating-app-appears-to-be-a-psyop/\">Goose, a New Gay Dating App, Appears to Be a Psyop\u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://inkstickmedia.com/how-indias-cyber-scam-industry-causes-global-havoc/\">How India’s Cyber Scam Industry Causes Global Havoc\u003c/a> — Hanan Zaffar, \u003cem>Inkstick\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-pimping-industry-deepfakes-instagram/\">Inside the Booming ‘AI Pimping’ Industry\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler and Emanuel Maiberg, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://kffhealthnews.org/health-industry/hhs-exchange-visitor-program-visa-waiver-j1-h1b-delays-foreign-doctors-deadline/\">Delays in Visa Program Threaten Placement of Hundreds of Doctors in Underserved Areas\u003c/a> — Arielle Zionts, \u003cem>KFF Health News \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2026/06/11/white-house-wants-more-doctors-but-its-immigration-policies-block-them/\">White House Wants More Doctors But Its Immigration Policies Block Them\u003c/a> — Stuart Anderson, \u003cem>Forbes\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/foreign-medical-residents-fill-critical-positions-at-u-s-hospitals-but-many-now-face-visa-issues\">Foreign medical residents fill critical positions at U.S. hospitals, but many now face visa issues\u003c/a> — Adithi Ramakrishnan and Devi Shastri, \u003cem>PBS News\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.business-standard.com/immigration/indians-lead-uk-exit-wave-as-britain-s-migration-crackdown-begins-to-bite-126052200275_1.html\">Indians lead UK exit wave as Britain’s migration crackdown begins to bite | Immigration News\u003c/a> — Sunainaa Chadha, \u003cem>Business Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do they help you learn about all the chronically online things you’re too scared to Google at work? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. So this is actually the second part of our series on the saga of Emily Hart, an AI MAGA influencer, and Sam, the guy who created her. If you haven’t heard part one yet, check out last week’s episode. And just a heads up, this episode contains mentions of explicit sexual content. So listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We first met Sam in last week episode. He’s a 22 year old medical student from India, and he had been chasing side hustles in order to make extra cash while in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I needed some extra pocket money. I started first with YouTube shorts. I started making AI horror shorts, then Roblox, but like it didn’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was by far his most lucrative venture. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Emily Hart] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Hey, handsome, in this private ward, there are no supervisors and no rules. Just me, you, and whatever happens when these scrubs finally come off. \u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She was the MAGA dream girl. And she was completely AI-generated. She rapidly gained a following thanks to her Trump-supporting thirst traps. Every time Sam posted images of her ice fishing, shooting rifles, drinking beer, complete with an American flag bikini and bright red MAGA hat, her fans went wild. In just a few weeks, Emily had 15,000 followers on Instagram, over 20 million views on Reels and a small army of subscribers on FanView. That’s a site kind of like OnlyFans. And these guys literally paid to DM her. Well, really, paid to DM Sam. They didn’t know it was him, but they also didn’t seem to care that Emily wasn’t real. Sam was making a couple thousand dollars a month, so he wasn’t quite rolling in it, but that’s really good money for a student in India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Initially, I enjoyed it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What made it at less enjoyable for you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Actually it was a bit strange. It was a bit creepy like other male is talking to me in like, that way. It felt weird. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was getting sick of it. It started with the unsolicited dick pics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the unsolicited cum tributes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I’m like, what the hell is this guy doing? He sent me the video. And I was like, people do all these weird things. Like, it was super creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily, who was really Sam, was dealing with some real creeps. Like, there is this one guy who wouldn’t stop harassing her account. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>He used to call me. He used to call me on Instagram, he used to like, call me 10 times, like, ‘why aren’t you picking up? You shouldn’t disrespect someone like that,’ like, I muted him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When Sam ignored him, the guy sent a nude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>After like 10 missed calls, he just sent that pic. I was like, Why are you sending it? Like, are you thinking that seeing this, I will call you or something? As a male, I can say like, many males are like, super creepy and I hate such men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that was just the start of it. Emily Hart was a success, but Sam was starting to get uncomfortable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like my DMs are filled every day, I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then… Instagram flagged Emily’s account, and that was the beginning of the end. Today, we’re diving into the rest of Sam’s story, from the Instagram bans to the scammer accusations to what happened with his lifelong dream of moving to America. And we’ll take a look at some other AI grifts as we try to answer the big question. Is it fair to call Sam a scammer? Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Before we get into the other questions, let’s talk about the rest of Emily’s story. Unfortunately, her ending is not a happy one. That’s our first half: the death of Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the peak of her popularity, Emily Hart was gaining about 2,000 followers a day. Sam was on top of the world. But then Instagram started picking up on some suspicious behavior in Emily’s DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So like initially, like Instagram, I used to message people. I didn’t do that. Instagram reads all the DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Not only does Instagram monitor DMs, but it also does not allow adult content. And it doesn’t allow users to advertise adult content Even mentioning OnlyFans can get you banned. Sex workers usually bury links to their paywalled explicit content within a sea of other links, three or four clicks deep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t know that, I sent a link to my Fanvue personally in DM, and like Instagram flagged my account instantly, like within 5-10 minutes, my account got flagged, it got banned, like I cannot use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Panicked, Sam got in touch with Meta and appealed the ban. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They asked for my personal ID and my mobile number, my email, all my personal information. And like my account got recovered the next day. And then it was flagged again, like two, five days after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He wasn’t sure what triggered the second ban, but it could have been for a number of reasons. He didn’t disclose that the account was AI, which goes against Instagram’s policies. He avoided even mentioning Emily’s Fanvue, but Meta could have flagged her account anyway using data about Sam’s internet usage. That happens to human sex workers all the time. Sam appealed again and, again, managed to recover Emily’s account. But then, about a month later, on the night of Valentine’s Day…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> it was like, boom, it’s over, they deleted my account, they don’t even give me the reason. It was just written that you don’t follow our community guidelines, that’s why we are suspending your account. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But then Sam remembered one certain post. And if he hadn’t already racked up a history of bans, Meta may have let this one slide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was the death by a thousand cuts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Ej Dickson, who first reported the story for Wired. Well, the Instagram guidelines require that creators disclose whether or not their profiles are AI-generated, and he wasn’t kicked off for violating that. He was kicked off for basically leaning into MAGA hatred too much, which I kind of thought was funny in a really dark way. Like he posted something really racist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re not going to repeat what the post said, but here’s how Sam explained why he did it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t hate African American people like, but it’s generally like, MAGA people don’t like them as much. MAGA people were like, super racist. Okay? So like I thought that like if I make an racially inappropriate joke for like, I thought that people would appreciate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He girlbossed too close to the sun, basically. And that’s what got him kicked off, not the fact that it was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s audience loved Sam’s posts about deporting immigrants and demonizing abortion. But this went too far for even them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Instagram is basically racism app. It’s like, filled with racism. And like, people appreciate it in comment section. Like people make jokes of it. But one thing that was super surprising for me is that like when I posted it, like even the MAGA people like, no one supported me, not like, even a single guy supported me. And people were like this is straight out racism. And people mass reported that reel and it got my Threads account banned. So it was surprising for me that people didn’t entertain that racism. It felt good. Like, at least people are not like, that racist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam tried to appeal it, like he did with previous bans, but Emily Hart’s Instagram account was gone forever. It was particularly devastating because he had been chasing side hustles for months, and this was the one that finally paid off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I was super upset, like I tried many things, like 10 things, 15 things and finally there was a hope, like there is this thing that worked out for me. There is thing like, that I figured out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He didn’t have much time to dwell on it, though. The big entrance exam for Indian medical specialty programs was just a few months away, so he had to lock in and study. And then, he had to navigate a different kind of internet fame. Ej’s wired story about Emily Hart was published shortly after the final Instagram ban. And it became even more viral than Emily herself. Ej expected some backlash from the MAGA crowd. After all, the headline of her story was literally “This scammer used an AI-generated MAGA girl to grift super dumb men.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>But a really interesting thing happened after the story came out where even MAGA accounts were reposting it being like, ‘Good for this guy!’ Like, applauding his efforts to scam, basically. There were some people who were saying like, incredibly racist things about brown people, but in the same breath were like, but honestly, good for this guy. If this is what these guys are capable of, like,more of them should come over here. That was a sentiment I saw more than once. And it’s a disgusting sentiment, right? It’s a despicable sentiment, but I was very surprised to see that even the people who were being duped by this guy were applauding the level of grift that it took to dupe them. I mean, that’s what they were doing. There were a couple of people who were mad, but for the most part, they were like, this guy? Good for him, you know, game-recognize-game. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam also loved Ej’s story. He said he sent it to all of his friends. And even though his name and identity were kept anonymous, for a brief moment, he was kind of a celebrity online. This story was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from an episode of The View ] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Joy Behar: So-called MAGA men, they were drooling over a social media personality named Emily Hart, a cute little blonde who would post pro-Trump content and even send bikini photos if people paid for it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Fox and Friends] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Kurt ‘CyberGuy’ Knutsson: I mean, this is catfishing on steroids, period. And you can see why the guys fell for her. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from HOT 97 TV News] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: She is not real. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Wait, what? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is AI. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith:Oh, wow. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is A.I. Turns out this is a viral MAGA influencer and she was ran by a med student from India. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Oh, he’s so smart. So smart. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I read thousands of comments, and people were appreciating. Like, give this guy a green card. You know, give the guy a citizen. It’s an example of good Indian, we need them in the USA. And people were super appreciating like, that he’s just smart, MAGA are dumb. Like, it’s not his fault if people are dumb. It’s a super genius idea. I should have thought of that. It was a very positive reaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, he did have an issue with one part of the article. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>In the article headline, they called me a scammer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>To this day Sam insists that he never scammed anyone. He says it’s a racist assumption that all Indian people online are scammers. We’ll hear his case in a new tab. That’s for after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, what makes a scammer? Don’t go anywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: is Sam a scammer? After Ej’s story came out, people praised Sam as innovative and creative and a master of his craft. Even Trump supporters applauded his dedication to the hustle. Sam ate it up, but he was genuinely offended by the way everyone called him a scammer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t scam anyone. I disclosed people that they shouldn’t tip. I disclose people that they shouldn’t spend so much money on me. Like, didn’t have any bad intention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A scammer, according to Merriam-Webster, is someone who participates in a fraudulent scheme. Cambridge Dictionary- someone who makes money using illegal methods by tricking people. Wikipedia- someone defrauds a person or group after gaining their trust. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I just want to make some money. You can say it’s not ethical, but it’s not a scam, like I didn’t do anything, you can say, illegal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam technically didn’t defraud anyone. While Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI generated, Sam did disclose it to subscribers on Fanvue, where he was actually making money. He said he had plenty of opportunities to scam Emily Hart subscribers. Multiple fans had offered to pay her thousands of dollars to meet in person, but Sam said he never took the money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People were like, we will pay for your plane ticket and please just come to California. We will have a dinner. Let’s have a dinner together and all that. Like, I could have easily taken their money. Like, I would have easily sent them, you can say, Bitcoin or like some, you can say, crypto link, but like, I was like, super clear with that. Like, I will not do anything wrong. And I knew that like, I can’t meet them in real life. They will just waive their money and I didn’t want that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam felt that the money he earned selling Fanvue subscriptions and pay-per-view content was earned, even if it was through AI-generated softcore porn. He disclosed that the content was AI, and he was providing something in return for their money. But he wasn’t comfortable accepting direct tips from Emily’s subscribers. He even sent some tips back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>From New Jersey and like he was tipping me a lot and I wondered like why he’s tipping so much. I asked him like ‘why are you tipping me so much?’ He was tipping so much in hopes that I will meet him because my model was based in New York City and it was close to New Jersey so he was like, if I tip her so much, maybe she will come to meet me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Sam told the subscriber that Emily was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I returned all the tip money. Then I was like, if you want to cancel the subscription, it’s completely fine with me. He was like no, like he didn’t even take all of the tip back. Like he tipped me $10 and he was like that, it’s okay. And like I returned the rest of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was offended that he was being labeled a scammer,because in his eyes, if he had actually scammed people, he’d have a lot more money. He also said it feeds into some of the racist assumptions that many people online make about India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There is a stereotype for Indian people, like, all the Indian people are scammers. Like, I didn’t want to do that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India dominates the IT industry. The English-speaking world’s major tech support hubs are based in India. But as this booming market grew, the cyber scam economy exploded too. Callers often pose as tech support agents from Amazon or fraud investigators from major banks and persuade gullible victims to hand over remote access to their devices and accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, people in India, they scam them out of thousands of dollars and I really feel bad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s economic strain and rising unemployment rates are pushing more young people to work at cyber scam centers because no one else is hiring. And that has really affected Sam, especially when he tries to make friends online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>That hurt the Indian image so much that even like, I meet people online, I can’t even tell them that I am Indian. They straight out hate me. Like, you are a scammer, you know all that racial comments, and I am like, you haven’t even talked with me, you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He specifically tried to adhere to his own moral code with Emily Hart, in part because he’s aware of the scammer reputation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I absolutely hate that, like it ruins the image of my country and I don’t like it at all. So I am like that, I am doing this and I will do this as ethically as possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So yes, Sam did dupe conservative men into following Emily Hart’s Instagram account. And he did build a following using racist, xenophobic, and downright offensive content. But when it comes to the question of whether he’s a scammer, sure, he profited off of the MAGA fantasy of a woman that doesn’t exist, but there were lines he refused to cross. And if subscribers tried to tip him more than the $5 subscription fee, he’d remind them that Emily Hart wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The thing is, scamming is not a term in our legal system, unlike fraud and theft, which can be prosecuted. And Sam didn’t do either of those. So whether he’s a scammer is really a moral question. And we can’t really weigh in on that until we understand the other ways people are using AI to deceive and profit off of others. Which, of course, means opening a new tab: the AI Thirst Trap Griff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI models took off for the general public in the early 2020s. And since then, the grifts have been booming. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a spectrum of this, of the AI influencer grift, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej has been reporting on this a lot for Wired, tracking all the new developments in the AI-influencer world. The industry is thriving. It seems like there’s a new synthetic personality going viral every day. They dominate streaming charts with their AI-generated music. They represent brands as AI-generated models. They crank out YouTube videos and TikToks and Reels faster than any human influencer can. And, like Emily Hart, they even sell AI-generated nudes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think we’re at a point where low effort is being rewarded and there’s a premium put on it versus hard work. And like, there are a lot of especially younger people who think that the mark of success is basically making as much money with as little work as possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And there’s one trend in the AI influencer space that really freaks Ej out. So Emily Hart is not necessarily based on a real human being. Sam generated her from scratch by prompting Gemini. You could argue that Gemini was trained using real people’s photos, and that there’s a chance that someone out there does look like her. But that’s a conversation for another deep dive. What actually concerns Ej is this growing trend of using AI to modify real women’s photos and videos. And selling them on adult content sites, entirely without their consent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I did a story about these 19-year-old boys who had developed this side hustle of taking random girls’ photos from Instagram, like private citizens, people with 1,000, 2,000 followers, not models or anything like that, and using nudify apps and posting sexual content of them on sites like Fanvue. And they were literally making YouTube tutorials and teaching men how to do this and how to make these photos, like what types of girls’ photos they should feed into the model to train it. It was really, really dark. And I think that we are headed for a future where that’s gonna become more normalized than not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>YouTube is teeming with tutorials to get rich quick by using generative AI to make explicit content. Almost all of the tutorials are taught by men who are profiting off of AI content based on real women. Some people refer to this as digital pimping. Ej thinks that phrasing is actually too mild. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it’s digital exploitation. I think it is digital trafficking, essentially. These guys are really invested in creating a reality where women who do not consent to being sexualized at all can have anything they want done with their images. No matter how old they are, no matter where they work, what they do. These guys just use the internet as free reign to humiliate them, because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not about getting off. It’s about humiliation. It’s about the lack of consent is the point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then there’s this practice of using AI influencers as bait. Ej recently broke this big story about the gay dating app Goose. Goose was marketed as a wholesome social platform. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Basically positioning it as a competitor to Grindr, except it would be less casual sex and hookup focused and more focused on socializing and making friends and forming real human connections. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Goose deployed a small army of hot gay influencers to recruit other gay men. These influencers would follow gay guys and add them to their Close Friends story or slide into their DMs with a “hey, you seem cool.” And eventually, they’d send an invite code to Goose. All of these influencers were AI-generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That was a big part of their marketing strategy, is making these very believable looking hot guy accounts with like 300, 400, 500 followers who like, worked in very realistic jobs. Like, one of the guys said he worked for Strava, like, another one of guys said he worked for like, David Zwirner Gallery. And that’s really convincing. And I think it really messed with a lot of people’s perceptions of reality and their ability to discern what is AI and what isn’t. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej said she could understand why people fell for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>In order to get on Goose, because it’s invite only at this point, and you obviously have to be a gay man to join it, I made my own AI-generated hot guy influencer account. I was trying to make it really convincing. So I was like, give him beards, give him tattoos, like, make him live in Crown Heights, make him be like, a record producer/engineer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more that I was like, generating these photos and generating this guy’s biography, I was like, oh my God, I’ve made the hottest man in the world. Like, I would absolutely have sex with this. Honestly, and this is a huge compliment to my husband. Like, he looked a lot like my husband, so even I, like, for a split second, was kind of deceived by the too-good-to-be-true element of AI, at least momentarily. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Compared to other examples Ej just talked about, was what Sam did really that bad? There’s a spectrum of AI thirst trap grifts. Ultimately, Sam did profit off of Emily Hart, but was he causing harm to anyone? That’s less clear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And then on the other hand, you have those evil motherf*ckers who are posting YouTube tutorials to young men teaching them how to take some high school girls’ photo off of Instagram and run her through a nudify app and make money off that. And the technology is getting better every day. It’s just getting easier and easier and easier and easier to do. It took me five minutes to make my hot gay man thirst trap guy. For Goose, it took the guys who were posting those YouTube tutorials, they were saying it took them 10 minutes. I think six months ago, the question would have been is the juice worth the squeeze? And now, like, there is no squeeze, you know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, the squeeze is no longer worth it for Sam. After Emily Hart’s account was banned for good, Sam tried to make another. But he found that, somehow, Meta banded him too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Even now my phone is blacklisted. If I use another number it will be blacklisted. So I cannot even create an Instagram account. Even if it’s not for all this like, Like, I created another Instagram account for personal use stuff and it deletes it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As lucrative as Emily Hart was, Sam’s kind of over the whole thing anyway. He doesn’t want to deal with the creeps, and he’s tired of pretending to be racist for engagement. And he’s got other stuff going on in his life. He’s about to graduate from medical school. His whole university career, he dreamed of moving to the U.S. It was going to be his ticket out of India’s economic crisis and caste system. But, this whole ordeal with Emily Hart combined with other factors, has him second-guessing his life plan. That’s a new tab: should I move to America? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sam had mapped out his entire career strategy when he started university, making sure to check all the boxes required to land a residency match in the U.S., which is already competitive, but even more so for international students. But he was determined. The United States Medical Licensing Exam is an incredibly rigorous process. It’s split into three parts over multiple years. Step one, which students take during their first years of medical school, is eight hours long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I cleared it in my first attempt, like, you only get one chance and I cleared it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>According to his plan, he should be taking step two soon. But since clearing the first exam, he’s watched immigration to the U.S. Become more and more difficult under the Trump administration. And now he’s rethinking his plan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, Donald Trump has made it so difficult to, even if you’re talented, they don’t want you. Even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. He did like hundreds of policy changes, like, every day he wakes up, he do a policy change. It’s like, you know you can’t predict him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Trump administration’s immigration policies have wreaked havoc on the medical training system, from implementing strict time limits on visas for trainees, to stalling visa renewals for doctors who are already practicing here. There’s also the $100,000 entry fee for H-1B visa holders, which a lot of rural hospitals just can’t afford. And amid the constant flux in the White House’s policies, ICE officers have targeted, detained, and deported immigrants, even if their visas are still valid. Sam has watched it all unfold while finishing school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And one day, I was like, it’s enough, I give up, like, I don’t want to gamble with my future. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And, immigration policies aside, his interactions with Americans, as Emily Hart, have soured his opinion of the U.S. He did choose to pander to people who have extremely racist and xenophobic stances, and he did stoke these viewpoints with Emily’s content. But at the same time, it wasn’t lost on him that if these followers knew who he really was, he’d probably be the target of their vitriol too. He said that a lot of these interactions reinforced his beliefs about conservative America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but you know, stereotype doesn’t write themselves, okay? Like, stereotype exists for a reason. I learned that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So making it in America, the land of opportunity and Grand Theft Auto, is no longer Sam’s goal. He said many of his classmates feel the same way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Because of this, many of the talented people are going to countries like Japan, Germany, like, good European countries, like,even UAE. People are saying, don’t go to the United States. And even after all this, you have to face racism on that. It’s not worth it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam considered trying to get into a specialty training program in other English-speaking countries, but he’s not sure of that either. The political climates in those countries aren’t the most welcoming right now. The UK has tightened its visa pathways and increased restrictions for international workers. And Australia recently placed Indian students in the high-risk visa category. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, nobody is willing to accept Indians, but the sentiment is very anti-immigration right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam said a lot of young people would actually want to stay in India if it weren’t for the caste system and tanking job market. He said that the reservation system, which was designed to uplift the most oppressed castes, leaves the middle class to compete for opportunities with the ultra-wealthy. But despite all his gripes with his home country and his lifelong dream of getting out, he is actually planning to stay for now. He scrapped his U.S. Immigration plans. Instead, he’s been studying for the big national entrance exam for India’s medical post-grad programs. He’s sitting for it at the end of the month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It wasn’t worth it for Sam to maintain Emily Hart’s Fanvue without having an Instagram to direct traffic to it. But he does still need to make money. And since he’s studying six to eight hours a day on top of his clinical work, he doesn’t have time for a nine to five. A few weeks ago, Sam started working on what he calls a more ethical version of Emily Hart, helping brands create AI influencers to promote their products. He doubts it’ll be as financially rewarding as Emily Hart. It’s essentially a marketing gig, which he said was kind of boring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Emily was another level of fun, it was like, you know, you get an adrenaline rush every day, you see like 2000 followers are adding up, there are people tipping on you, there are are people that are going crazy for you, or like people are copying you. It was a whole different level of, you can say, fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But even if he could get around the meta ban, Sam has zero interest in attempting to create another Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> I used to think that you can, you know, easily make good amount of money effortlessly. All this AI creator and stuff didn’t take a lot of effort. It was hardly 15 to 30 minutes a day of work. And actually, it made a good amount of money. But what I concluded is that like, you cannot make a good amount money consistently without putting in effort. That’s my takeaway. If it feels too good to be true, then it is too good to be true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive into the saga of Emily Hart, and, more importantly, the story of the real guy who created her. Special thanks to Sam and Ej for sharing this with us. We have opened so many tabs for this series, but if you feel like you still need to open more, we’ll link to some further reading in the show notes. And as usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay. It’s finally time, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Lauren Yoon is our intern and was also the associate producer on this episode. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. This episode also includes clips from The View, Fox & Friends, and Hot 97. It also includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, I’ve tried a lot of things like trading bots, like stock market and stuff. I got good success in that, but then I lost a lot of money, I lost $1,000 in stock market, then I quit it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "The Emily Hart Saga, Part 1: MAGA’s AI Dream Girl",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8396912565\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/ai-generated-influencers-a-new-wave-of-cultural-exploitation-248956\">AI‑generated influencers: A new wave of cultural exploitation\u003c/a> — Ateqah Khaki & Vinita Srivastava, \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-brandi-love-the-pro-trump-porn-star-who-writes-for-the-federalist/\">Meet Brandi Love, the Pro-Trump Porn Star Who Writes for The Federalist\u003c/a> — Marlow Stern, \u003cem>The Daily Beast \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theworld.org/stories/2026/06/19/challenges-under-indias-university-reservation-system\">Challenges under India’s university reservation system \u003c/a> — Namrata Kolachalam, \u003cem>The World \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabby Cats, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends — post about it. You too, can be part of our volunteer clipping army. We can’t let the looksmaxxers win the clip wars. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains some graphic descriptions of sexual content, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>So, Emily Hart was a 23-year-old nurse, I believe? Born in Buffalo, lived in New York City, who loved ice fishing and Michelob Light and America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej Dickson is a reporter for Wired. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>My job is to explain things that people are too afraid to Google at work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And at the beginning of the year, she started looking into this influencer… who went by Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And she was a very pretty blonde girl, she looked a little bit like Jennifer Lawrence… loved posing on her pickup truck, in American flag bikinis. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily frequently wore a bright red, “Make America Great Again” hat in her photos. She would post Instagram reels set to John Denver’s “Take Me Home, Country Roads,” with captions laden with American flag emojis. Most of her content was about deporting, quote, “illegals” and supporting Trump. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Love posting racist memes and transphobic memes — you know, touching every single one of the MAGA bases. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She had that no-makeup makeup look, and when she wasn’t in a bikini or ice fishing, she posted about being a nurse. Within a few weeks of starting her account, Emily Hart had more than 10,000 followers. It was like everything about her was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There are certain aspects of the Emily Hart brand that are so uniquely American that people who are only from America would understand like, ice fishing or Michelob Ultra and sort of the status that it has as the beer of like, the MAGA world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She’s a Trump supporter’s perfect woman. There’s just one problem — Emily Hart is not real. She’s completely AI-generated. If you look past her perfect body, bleached hair, and very polarizing captions, you’d spot the inconsistencies. I mean, who goes ice fishing in a bikini? EJ said that those inconsistencies are what tipped her off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Her profile said that she went to school in New York and currently lived in New York and she was from Buffalo — like the chances are very low that somebody that explicitly conservative would move to New York City for college and live in New York city and be like, a real human being — honestly. I mean, I’m sure they exist — I don’t think they look like Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in 2024, following Trump’s presidential win, EJ started seeing all of these tradwife-adjacent videos. They almost all featured a beautiful young blonde woman, in her 20s, kneading dough or sweeping the floor of a rustic kitchen. And, unlike the more modestly dressed tradwife influencers who popularized this content, the women in these videos were almost always wearing very low- cut dresses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There was sort of this sense of uncanny valley attached to them where it was like, “Oh these don’t really look like real people,” but they’re obviously trying to cater to a real… and honestly very terrifying audience. So, I started digging into it, because I saw one or two of these accounts and I was like “I bet there are more of them,” and just fell down this rabbit hole of AI MAGA hot girl accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was just one of countless AI MAGA hot girls taking over Instagram. These women are not real, but the people running their accounts are — and Ej found one of them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My pseudonym is Sam. I am a 22-year-old medical student. Currently, I am in my final year of medical school, and that’s pretty much it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam is the creator of Emily Hart, and what began as a get-rich-quick scheme for him quickly spiraled out of control. So, who is Sam, and what would possess him to create an AI MAGA hot girl? The saga of Emily Hart is such a wild ride that we’re actually going to split this deep dive into two parts. There’s so much to unpack here about the strange intersection of politics, AI, virtual influencers, privilege, and digital sex work. But today, we’re starting with Sam’s story. How did this 22-year-old student in India manage to dupe so many conservative men? Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know how every good deep dive starts. Let’s open a new tab: Who is the real Emily Hart? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve probably picked up on this by now, but this tab is not about Emily Hart at all. It’s about the guy who made her. And in some ways, he’s like a lot of other straight guys his age. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I’m a big time gym rat. Like, even right now like, I’m talking to you and I’m completing my daily steps. Building a lean physique, getting shredded — that gives me happiness. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He asked that we call him Sam. We’re using a pseudonym for him because he’s in his final year of medical school, and is concerned about how this story could jeopardize his medical career and ability to emigrate to another country after graduation. Sam is 22, lives in northern India, and is studying orthopedic surgery. He’s from a middle-class family. Like a lot of Indians, he lives in an intergenerational household with his parents, grandparents, aunt, and uncle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, my cousins, they are like my real brother and sister — you get a lot of love, you get a lot of support. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And Sam has always been fascinated by American culture. When I got on a call with him, he was like, “Wait, you live in Los Angeles? Is it really like Grand Theft Auto?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I follow American politics. I wanted to do my post-graduation from USA. I was super into American culture, like — playing GTA, Grand Theft Auto, like, watching, uh, you can say, TV show, of like How I Met Your Mother, Friends, and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just pop culture that made him want to immigrate here. He also wanted to leave India altogether. As close as his family is, his upbringing was, at times, strained. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It was not pleasant, you can say. Like, there is this thing called caste system in India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s caste system is thousands of years old. Historically, castes were tied to specific occupations. The higher castes were priests and warriors and rulers. The middle caste were merchants and skilled artisans. The lower caste did farm work or were servants. And then, there were people who were considered “untouchable” — and they faced the most discrimination, even today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To make up for generations of discrimination and economic inequality, the Indian government has a series of programs called “reservation.” It’s kind of like affirmative action — with strict quotas. A certain percentage of government jobs and public university spots are reserved for members of lower castes. The reservation system is very controversial in India, because it’s not based on current financial status. It’s based purely on caste, which is fixed at birth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You know, like, reservation and caste system were introduced to uplift the lower class — uplift the backward people. It started as a good idea. You know, my family has decent money, like — okay-okay money — we are not very rich. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam’s ancestors were jewelers and fell into that middle tier of merchants and artisans. They’ve been solidly middle-class for generations. His family could not have afforded private school, so he had to compete for one of the very limited spots at his public university. There’s a key tension here between caste and class. Sam doesn’t come from a ton of money. He doesn’t have the same resources and safety net that the upper echelon of Indian society has. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The reservation system was designed to level the playing field. While it uplifts the most oppressed classes, Sam feels like it leaves the middle class behind. He said his own opportunities in India are limited — and that there’s no upward mobility for him. Becoming a doctor was never his great life goal… but, it’s a stable career that offers a considerably better salary than other jobs in India. And, there’s demand for doctors all over the world — he sees it as a ticket out of the caste system. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sam had his sights set on America. He saw it as a land of meritocracy and Grand Theft Auto. But while his parents helped him with tuition and licensing exam fees, he wanted to travel. He needed to buy his protein powder so that he could, as he put it, “get shredded.” And he wanted save up for his potential move to the U.S. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, he needed money. The problem? He’s in his last year of a five-and-a-half year medical program — and when he isn’t in class or working his medical internship, he’s studying for this big entrance exam to get into a post-grad medical specialty program. Plus, the job market in India sucks. Sam said that most entry-level, part-time jobs that college students typically get pay like, a dollar an hour. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If you work four hours per day for a whole month, you can hardly earn like, $100 for a month. And like, I didn’t want to, you know, put so much effort for so little cash. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And, Sam is a product of his generation. It’s not just his gym rat tendencies. It’s what made his story so compelling to Ej. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Sam is, I think, pretty representative of Gen Z males, in that there’s very much an emphasis on like, online side hustles. There were a lot of things that he tried to do to make money. He was doing online fitness coaching for a while, he was doing some of that like, drop shipping nonsense that all the Gen Z boys do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He tutored and sold notes and study guides for the U.S. medical licensing exam, which he already passed. He once saw Instagram ads about monetizing AI clips, so he started making AI Roblox videos for YouTube shorts. He was kind of just… chasing side hustles until something stuck. Then, while scrolling through Instagram, he came across this influencer. She was gorgeous, but Sam could tell she was AI-generated. And yet, she had a huge audience — all from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>She uploads pictures with Donald Trump. She’s a blonde military girl that uploads pictures with Donald Trump — and like, she had like, thousands and millions of likes, thousands of followers, so I wanted to create that. Like, Donald Trump — everyone knows him, everyone knows what he is doing, and you know, even like, me and my friends who follow American politics, we used to joke around MAGA people that they are so dumb, like they don’t understand anything… and like how can someone support Donald Trump? Like, after all that he’s doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He hatched a plan: make a hot AI girl, go viral, and get rich. He opened Google’s AI image generator, also known as Nano Banana Pro. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I use a lot of Gemini. I never use ChatGPT — I am a Gemini guy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam initially tried to make the Indian version of the blonde military girl influencer, but it didn’t work out. For one, he said that because mainstream AI models are trained on American culture, Gemini struggled to generate a realistic-looking Indian woman. The hot Indian girl he was trying to create just looked… fake. And the second issue: he realized that Indian men just don’t spend money the way American men do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> And like USA, there is big tipping culture — people, you know, easily pay- they are more willing to pay. That’s why I changed it to an American influencer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But first, he had to decide what this American influencer would be like. Sam turned to Gemini, which told him the influencer shouldn’t just be a “pretty girl.” She needed depth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You shouldn’t create- just create a beautiful women with no personality. You want people to connect with your Instagram model — then they will be connected with you, then they will buy your services, etcetera. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam had a new plan: create a hot blonde AI girl, go viral, and get rich. She would appeal to the typical American man — so that Sam could cash in on those sweet American tips. And she wouldn’t just look the part, she would have the personality of an all-American girl. Through TV shows, video games, and following American politics, he was familiar enough with American culture to pull it off. With a couple of curated prompts, he had a handful of images to start her account. The last thing he needed was a name. And that came from Gemini too: Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey guys, just enjoying the sun by the pool today. This feels so good. I’m gonna dip my toes in, so refreshing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily took off — thousands of followers in just a few weeks. Sam had unlocked the formula to reach a very specific group of American men. So, how did he do it? We’re getting into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going! You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break, Emily Hart goes MAGA. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: Becoming Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Gemini’s suggestion, Sam created a profile for Emily Hart, a blonde nurse from Buffalo who lives in New York City. It was pretty generic at first. He started posting as Emily in January, and immediately started getting attention… from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Once I created it, like, initially four or five DMs, all the DMs I got, was from, you can say, old 60, 70-year-old, MAGA people like, pro-MAGA, pro-right — like, those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And Gemini was apparently like, “You need to make a MAGA girl. You need to like a hot MAGA in a bikini, like, that’s gold.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He started posting images of Emily ice-fishing, drinking beer, and sexily firing rounds at the shooting range. He wrote captions like: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>If you want a reason to unfollow? Christ is king, abortion is murder, and all illegals must be deported. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>POV: you were assigned intelligent at birth, but you identify as a liberal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Followed by a clown emoji.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He approached it as a craft, and he really spent a lot of time trying to perfect his craft on Gemini —because the space was so saturated, that he really needed a gimmick or a niche to kind of corner in order to be successful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It took a couple of weeks of consistent posting, but the payoff was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It took me three weeks to get initial 1,000 subscribers. And from there, in one week, I had like 14,000-15,000 subscribers, 20 million views and like, all that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It helped that Emily’s audience wasn’t the most tech savvy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I want to be clear that Gemini did not explicitly say this, but I do think that that audience is probably less technologically well-versed than progressives are, and therefore more gullible and more prone to falling toward this kind of scheme. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam echoed this… more strongly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but — like, what I have observed, like, the liberals and the left-wing people, they are usually smart. They are — you know, they have basic common sense. And you know, the MAGA people are like, super dumb people. I should not say that, but they are like — you can say they are not that aware on, you can say, technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That’s not to say that there aren’t easily duped liberals. I do think that internet MAGA has a much, much stronger digital aesthetic than progressives do, for sure. There’s an iconography attached to it — and just seeing like, a blonde white girl wearing an American flag bikini while ice fishing, I mean, how much more MAGA can you get? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s very strong visual political identity resonated with her followers. Maybe that’s why they were less likely to be suspicious of her — the bright red MAGA hat she often wore also helped obscure some of the inconsistencies in her post. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>AI really, you know, messes up the hair also. So, to get around that, I used to include a MAGA cap in like, every image I make. So basically, like, I used to include accessories like sunglasses and MAGA cap to, you know, get two different… like, make it more believable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it wasn’t even just, like, to appeal to MAGA. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, it was — you know, it was beneficial in both ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or, maybe they didn’t suspect anything because she was hot, and that was disarming enough. Because, there were definitely red flags in Emily’s content. Video generation was less convincing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey, handsome. I just got back to my tiny apartment after a 12-hour shift at Bellevue. NYC is just so loud tonight, but honestly? All I can think about is how much I missed you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So Sam usually stuck to images — but even then, he said Gemini couldn’t quite get the eyes right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, you can say that it’s- it might not be real — there is something wrong with the picture. So you know what I used to do? Like, I used include sunglasses in every picture — every picture, I used to include sunglasses. Like, she’s wearing black sunglasses everywhere. Like she is ice-fishing, she is wearing sunglasses, like she’s inside her home, she’s wearing sunglasses. Even at night, she’s wearing sunglasses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam studied up on MAGA ideology and how Trump supporters interact online. Every day, he’d spend 30 minutes to an hour creating content that was pro-Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, and anti-abortion. The more divisive the caption, the more engagement he got as Emily. He didn’t believe in any of this, but he knew what would get attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Weirdly, it was a scam that only somebody who was really interested in American culture could have pulled off, I think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam has a real knack for engagement bait: engineering content that tricks social media algorithms to boost a post. Like, he was inspired by this TikTok trend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There was a trend — on this song, like, it was around two years ago and it was this song — “I’m stylish, big top, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok trend video]: \u003c/strong>Bitch I’m stylish, black talk, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish. Watch on my wrist but I want that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The videos usually started with someone getting ready, in a frumpy get-up — and, when the beat dropped, it would cut to them, fully glammed up. Sam was inspired by that split-second transition on the beat. So, using other songs, he put his own spin on it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I used to upload like, you can say, a catfish type of reel. There was like, four to six seconds reel of Emily Hart, a picture with her like, normal clothes. And then I used a sneak-in, like, for a millisecond, a picture of her in a swimsuit, you can say… sort of, like, a decent word — a swimsuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Driven by horny curiosity, viewers would try to pause the video in time to see the picture. And if they didn’t catch it in time, they’d have to play the video again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And for that, they used to again and again, see multiple times, like four, five times, six times. So that Instagram gets the signal that this reel is so good that people are viewing it five to six times, so promote it. So normally I used to get like 200, 300 views, and like, these type of views used to get like, 10,000, 50,000, 25,000 views. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was a hit. Within a few weeks, she had over 15,000 followers on Instagram — which is a fraction of what the most popular real influencers have, but to build this following in such a short time period with such minimal effort? Real influencers grind for months to build that. Sam felt like he had unlocked something. His MAGA influencer was going strong, but he wondered if there was an untapped market out there. So… he tried to recreate the magic of Emily Hart, but this time for a liberal audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was very stereotypical. I mean, less aggressively so than Emily Hart, but it was like a girl with dyed red hair and a nose ring who would like post cute selfies with a coffee cup in Bushwick. You know, it was very generic. It was clear that she wasn’t as fully fleshed out as Emily Hart was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, it was a complete flop because people used to know that it’s an AI flop and they like, usually didn’t interact with it, like, they didn’t comment. They were like, “This is AI slop, this is trash, we don’t have time,” something like that. And like, the MAGA people were like crazy — “Are you single? Can I message you?” Something like that. They were, you can say, a little more lusty, you can say. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, it was fine. Sam had his hands full with Emily, anyway. In the early days, he got a real kick out of duping conservative men who had no idea they were talking to a 22-year-old Indian guy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They were super racist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When he created Emily’s Facebook profile, he accidentally set his location to New Delhi. A random man messaged the profile. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So, like, he went through my Facebook profile, he went through that, and he saw New Delhi. And he was like, “Have you been to India?” And I didn’t even say anything. And he used to like, “India is not a good place. It’s not safe for women. You shouldn’t have gone there.” And you know, the racist comments. And I didn’t talk to him. Like, he said, “Hi,” I said, “Hello.” Okay — then he started all this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it never occurred to him that he could be just talking to someone who was Indian? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>No. It was a little fun like, you know, like, making a fool of such people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But this wasn’t just for fun. The entire reason he got into this was to make some cash. So, how did he monetize Emily Hart? That’s a new tab: why was Emily Hart so successful? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instagram is very strict about nudity and adult content. So, like many real human sex workers, Emily’s Instagram account was a vehicle to drive engagement to another site: Fanvue. The most popular subscription platform for adult content is OnlyFans. Using AI tools to edit content and manage messages is allowed, but the site totally bans “synthetic personas” — fully AI-generated characters like Emily Hart. In fact, a lot of adult subscription sites do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instead, Sam used Fanvue, which is where a lot AI influencers sell nudes. Google’s Gemini blocks the generation of explicit content, and although there are ways to get around it, Sam’s hustle was all about doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money. So, he used Grok. He generated a couple nudes, uploaded them to Fanvue, set a subscription fee, and locked the juiciest content behind a paywall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then… the cash started rolling in. Sam was blown away at how easily Americans spent money. He couldn’t believe they were tipping him — or really, Emily — just to respond to their messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People used to hugely tip. I don’t know why people tip in USA — like, I am 22 years old, I have never in my life once seen someone tipping in India. And like, people were like, crazy, they used to tip me $20, $10, and I was thinking like, “Why people are sending me extra money? I dont know.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He made a few thousand dollars within days of starting the account. Again, human adult content creators grind for years to get this kind of audience… and to generate anything close to this amount of revenue. What was it about Emily that made her so popular? Ej has a theory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think that probably at the time that Sam was doing this, the space was a little less saturated, so there was less competition. And, I think, probably the most major contributor to this is the fact that there’s a really strong element of self-delusion at play here, right? In order to buy into Emily Hart’s whole persona, you not only have to believe that this woman exists, you have to be believe that she is a hot 24-year-old girl who exists and believes exactly the same things as you do — and validates every single opinion you have. I think these men got off to that probably more than anything. And I think that’s very powerful for the MAGA sect. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are real adult content creators who are also conservative. Ej pointed to Brandi Love, who’s known for making MILF porn and also being a vocal Trump supporter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think what differentiates Emily from someone like Brandi, is Brandi does not make it integral to her persona, right? She very rarely posts about politics, and that’s Emily’s entire brand is combining politics with sex. With the conservative adult creators, the politics are kind of incidental to the main product, which is the sex. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam knew he was playing into some kind of fantasy, and soon after starting the Fanvue account, started feeling really bad about it. He didn’t like the idea of deceiving anyone for money. Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI, but Sam wasn’t making money there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If someone paid for my Fanvue, I used to disclose it — like, you should know this, before spending like, too much money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And when subscribers sent him additional tips on Fanvue, he’d actually message them back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, I used to say to them — “That you should know, I’m artificially generated.”. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The wild thing is, the subscribers didn’t seem to care at all — even when Sam reminded them that the girl they were paying wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, two or three people messaged me, like, “We think that you are AI-generated, but we love the reels you are making. You are supporting Trump, you are supporting the Republicans, so we will support you. We don’t care.” So, many were like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really don’t think that the majority of these men care if the woman on the other side of the screen is fake — and that’s kind of the scariest part to me, because I think that that principle applies to AI-generated content on the internet in general. I don’t think people care if something is real or fake anymore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What would drive Emily Hart subscribers to continue following her, subscribing to her exclusive content, and even paying to DM her if they knew she wasn’t really a hot 24-year-old, pickup truck-driving, ice-fishing nurse in New York City? They knew the pictures they were liking and saving — among other things — were generated using AI. At that point, why continue following her? Why not just chat with an AI girlfriend on Character AI or something? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really think it comes down to this idea of intimacy, which is the whole reason why OnlyFans blew up in the first place. Like, the whole premise of OnlyFans is that men are directly connecting with the objects of their fantasies. And, the level of intimacy that is provided by that exchange goes beyond sex, it goes beyond getting off. It really is about human connection. So I think that a lot of the men who paid for Emily Hart’s content were sort of willing to suspend their disbelief in exchange for that element of intimacy, of connection, of human interaction that they were trying to convince themselves that they were getting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was making way more money than he ever could have made working a part-time job during school. Every day, he generates some more Emily content and come up with a racist, xenophobic caption that he knew would get attention. He kept an eye on all the viral trends that other hot girls, AI or not, were doing on Instagram and TikTok. Emily’s fans weren’t just American either. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I got a guy from Germany, I got a guy from Switzerland, like, many different people. Like, on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like, my DM was filled, every day I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam ignored most of the Instagram messages, but made sure that Fanvue subscribers got a response, because they had to pay to unlock those. The site has an AI feature that generates messages based on previous chats, so he could automate responses. Although he didn’t have to respond to subscribers himself, he did have to see what they sent back. And they were getting a little too comfortable in Emily’s DMs. That’s a whole new tab: Emily Hart’s Simp Army. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the upside? Sam made a good amount of money as Emily Hart. The downside? He was dealing with some real creeps. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I can’t even say what people were sending me to Instagram, like, it’s inappropriate. But like, people are sending inappropriate images, inappropriate messages. “Hey, are you single? What’s up? Where do you live?” Like, these are general. But like, some people were like, so creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Navigating the internet as Emily was an eye-opening experience for Sam. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My friends don’t even message me that much. When I started, I used to get like, 10-15 messages, easily. Like, so much attention. And I was thinking like, “Do pretty women get so much attention?” Like, I was like, surprised. But it’s not good kind of attention — it’s not the kind of attention people want. It’s super disgusting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As Emily Hart — patriot and rising Fanvue star —Sam experienced what women haven’t subjected to since the birth of texting: unsolicited dick pics. He was appalled. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image. Like, it was super weird, super creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He learned to stop checking Emily Hart’s Instagram messages, but he couldn’t ignore the ones on Fanvue, because that’s where he was making money. One guy on Fanvue sent him 50 bucks, and then to accompany the tip, the subscriber attached a video of himself, naked, humping a pillow that propped up a tablet with Emily’s nude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I mean, these guys were sending him cum tributes, like they were ejaculating on photos of Emily Hart, or like sending videos of themselves masturbating on Emily Hart’s photo — and he would have to see this, like, all the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, there was the emotional toll, too. The unsolicited videos were gross, but they were nothing compared to the trauma-dumping that Emily’s subscribers did in her DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He would get messages all the time from people who would buy her videos and buy her exclusive content — and they would be like, “Are you real or are you AI?” But then they would go on and talk about their days, or talk about how lonely they were, how much they hated their wives. I found Sam very thoughtful and self-reflective. I think that he felt guilty about deceiving them, honestly. They would share things with him sometimes that went beyond the typical OnlyFans model-subscriber relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just going back to that idea of intimacy and human connection, like they would talk about how terrible their marriages were and they hadn’t slept in the same bed as and their wives in years and how they recently lost a parent or a beloved family member. When there was a theoretical audience of dumb MAGA guys paying for this content, I think he was more comfortable with that than with engaging with them all on an individual level and being like, “Oh, these are real people with real problems.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The AI MAGA hot girl venture was supposed to be easy cash. And the fact that he was tricking Americans, whose politics he fundamentally disagreed with — who would probably be horrified to find out they were sending cum tributes to a 22-year-old Indian guy — felt like poetic justice. But the grift… stoped being fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it got too intense. I think he got burnt out by it very fast. He wasn’t doing it for very long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the Instagram ban started. The scammer accusations followed. Emily Hart, AKA Sam, was under fire. That’s it for part one of the story, but don’t worry. We’re not finished with this deep dive yet. Next week, we’re getting into the rest of the Emily Hart saga, the scammer debate, and what happened with Sam’s lifelong dream of moving to America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs before part two drops next week, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. We’re leaving these tabs open for now. So, come back for the rest of the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited and audio engineered by Chris Egusa. Production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his White Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. We also used a clip of the song “Billie Eilish” by Armani White. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Can I say cum tributes on here or should I just- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But you will have to, uh — for the normies — explain what cum tributes are. \u003cem>[Laughs].\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/ai-generated-influencers-a-new-wave-of-cultural-exploitation-248956\">AI‑generated influencers: A new wave of cultural exploitation\u003c/a> — Ateqah Khaki & Vinita Srivastava, \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-brandi-love-the-pro-trump-porn-star-who-writes-for-the-federalist/\">Meet Brandi Love, the Pro-Trump Porn Star Who Writes for The Federalist\u003c/a> — Marlow Stern, \u003cem>The Daily Beast \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-brandi-love-the-pro-trump-porn-star-who-writes-for-the-federalist/\">Meet Brandi Love, the Pro-Trump Porn Star Who Writes for The Federalist\u003c/a> — Marlow Stern, \u003cem>The Daily Beast \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theworld.org/stories/2026/06/19/challenges-under-indias-university-reservation-system\">Challenges under India’s university reservation system \u003c/a> — Namrata Kolachalam, \u003cem>The World \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabby Cats, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends — post about it. You too, can be part of our volunteer clipping army. We can’t let the looksmaxxers win the clip wars. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabby Cats, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends — post about it. You too, can be part of our volunteer clipping army. We can’t let the looksmaxxers win the clip wars. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>So, Emily Hart was a 23-year-old nurse, I believe? Born in Buffalo, lived in New York City, who loved ice fishing and Michelob Light and America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>So, Emily Hart was a 23-year-old nurse, I believe? Born in Buffalo, lived in New York City, who loved ice fishing and Michelob Light and America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>My job is to explain things that people are too afraid to Google at work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And at the beginning of the year, she started looking into this influencer… who went by Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And she was a very pretty blonde girl, she looked a little bit like Jennifer Lawrence… loved posing on her pickup truck, in American flag bikinis. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily frequently wore a bright red, “Make America Great Again” hat in her photos. She would post Instagram reels set to John Denver’s “Take Me Home, Country Roads,” with captions laden with American flag emojis. Most of her content was about deporting, quote, “illegals” and supporting Trump. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Love posting racist memes and transphobic memes — you know, touching every single one of the MAGA bases. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Love posting racist memes and transphobic memes — you know, touching every single one of the MAGA bases. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She had that no-makeup makeup look, and when she wasn’t in a bikini or ice fishing, she posted about being a nurse. Within a few weeks of starting her account, Emily Hart had more than 10,000 followers. It was like everything about her was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She had that no-makeup makeup look, and when she wasn’t in a bikini or ice fishing, she posted about being a nurse. Within a few weeks of starting her account, Emily Hart had more than 10,000 followers. It was like everything about her was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There are certain aspects of the Emily Hart brand that are so uniquely American that people who are only from America would understand like, ice fishing or Michelob Ultra and sort of the status that it has as the beer of like, the MAGA world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There are certain aspects of the Emily Hart brand that are so uniquely American that people who are only from America would understand like, ice fishing or Michelob Ultra and sort of the status that it has as the beer of like, the MAGA world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She’s a Trump supporter’s perfect woman. There’s just one problem — Emily Hart is not real. She’s completely AI-generated. If you look past her perfect body, bleached hair, and very polarizing captions, you’d spot the inconsistencies. I mean, who goes ice fishing in a bikini? EJ said that those inconsistencies are what tipped her off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She’s a Trump supporter’s perfect woman. There’s just one problem — Emily Hart is not real. She’s completely AI-generated. If you look past her perfect body, bleached hair, and very polarizing captions, you’d spot the inconsistencies. I mean, who goes ice fishing in a bikini? EJ said that those inconsistencies are what tipped her off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Her profile said that she went to school in New York and currently lived in New York and she was from Buffalo — like the chances are very low that somebody that explicitly conservative would move to New York City for college and live in New York city and be like, a real human being — honestly. I mean, I’m sure they exist — I don’t think they look like Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Her profile said that she went to school in New York and currently lived in New York and she was from Buffalo — like the chances are very low that somebody that explicitly conservative would move to New York City for college and live in New York city and be like, a real human being — honestly. I mean, I’m sure they exist — I don’t think they look like Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in 2024, following Trump’s presidential win, EJ started seeing all of these tradwife-adjacent videos. They almost all featured a beautiful young blonde woman, in her 20s, kneading dough or sweeping the floor of a rustic kitchen. And, unlike the more modestly dressed tradwife influencers who popularized this content, the women in these videos were almost always wearing very low- cut dresses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in 2024, following Trump’s presidential win, EJ started seeing all of these tradwife-adjacent videos. They almost all featured a beautiful young blonde woman, in her 20s, kneading dough or sweeping the floor of a rustic kitchen. And, unlike the more modestly dressed tradwife influencers who popularized this content, the women in these videos were almost always wearing very low- cut dresses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There was sort of this sense of uncanny valley attached to them where it was like, “Oh these don’t really look like real people,” but they’re obviously trying to cater to a real… and honestly very terrifying audience. So, I started digging into it, because I saw one or two of these accounts and I was like “I bet there are more of them,” and just fell down this rabbit hole of AI MAGA hot girl accounts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There was sort of this sense of uncanny valley attached to them where it was like, “Oh these don’t really look like real people,” but they’re obviously trying to cater to a real… and honestly very terrifying audience. So, I started digging into it, because I saw one or two of these accounts and I was like “I bet there are more of them,” and just fell down this rabbit hole of AI MAGA hot girl accounts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was just one of countless AI MAGA hot girls taking over Instagram. These women are not real, but the people running their accounts are — and Ej found one of them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was just one of countless AI MAGA hot girls taking over Instagram. These women are not real, but the people running their accounts are — and Ej found one of them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My pseudonym is Sam. I am a 22-year-old medical student. Currently, I am in my final year of medical school, and that’s pretty much it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My pseudonym is Sam. I am a 22-year-old medical student. Currently, I am in my final year of medical school, and that’s pretty much it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam is the creator of Emily Hart, and what began as a get-rich-quick scheme for him quickly spiraled out of control. So, who is Sam, and what would possess him to create an AI MAGA hot girl? The saga of Emily Hart is such a wild ride that we’re actually going to split this deep dive into two parts. There’s so much to unpack here about the strange intersection of politics, AI, virtual influencers, privilege, and digital sex work. But today, we’re starting with Sam’s story. How did this 22-year-old student in India manage to dupe so many conservative men? Ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam is the creator of Emily Hart, and what began as a get-rich-quick scheme for him quickly spiraled out of control. So, who is Sam, and what would possess him to create an AI MAGA hot girl? The saga of Emily Hart is such a wild ride that we’re actually going to split this deep dive into two parts. There’s so much to unpack here about the strange intersection of politics, AI, virtual influencers, privilege, and digital sex work. But today, we’re starting with Sam’s story. How did this 22-year-old student in India manage to dupe so many conservative men? Ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know how every good deep dive starts. Let’s open a new tab: Who is the real Emily Hart? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know how every good deep dive starts. Let’s open a new tab: Who is the real Emily Hart? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’ve probably picked up on this by now, but this tab is not about Emily Hart at all. It’s about the guy who made her. And in some ways, he’s like a lot of other straight guys his age. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’ve probably picked up on this by now, but this tab is not about Emily Hart at all. It’s about the guy who made her. And in some ways, he’s like a lot of other straight guys his age. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I’m a big time gym rat. Like, even right now like, I’m talking to you and I’m completing my daily steps. Building a lean physique, getting shredded — that gives me happiness. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I’m a big time gym rat. Like, even right now like, I’m talking to you and I’m completing my daily steps. Building a lean physique, getting shredded — that gives me happiness. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He asked that we call him Sam. We’re using a pseudonym for him because he’s in his final year of medical school, and is concerned about how this story could jeopardize his medical career and ability to emigrate to another country after graduation. Sam is 22, lives in northern India, and is studying orthopedic surgery. He’s from a middle-class family. Like a lot of Indians, he lives in an intergenerational household with his parents, grandparents, aunt, and uncle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He asked that we call him Sam. We’re using a pseudonym for him because he’s in his final year of medical school, and is concerned about how this story could jeopardize his medical career and ability to emigrate to another country after graduation. Sam is 22, lives in northern India, and is studying orthopedic surgery. He’s from a middle-class family. Like a lot of Indians, he lives in an intergenerational household with his parents, grandparents, aunt, and uncle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, my cousins, they are like my real brother and sister — you get a lot of love, you get a lot of support. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, my cousins, they are like my real brother and sister — you get a lot of love, you get a lot of support. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And Sam has always been fascinated by American culture. When I got on a call with him, he was like, “Wait, you live in Los Angeles? Is it really like Grand Theft Auto?” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And Sam has always been fascinated by American culture. When I got on a call with him, he was like, “Wait, you live in Los Angeles? Is it really like Grand Theft Auto?” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I follow American politics. I wanted to do my post-graduation from USA. I was super into American culture, like — playing GTA, Grand Theft Auto, like, watching, uh, you can say, TV show, of like How I Met Your Mother, Friends, and all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I follow American politics. I wanted to do my post-graduation from USA. I was super into American culture, like — playing GTA, Grand Theft Auto, like, watching, uh, you can say, TV show, of like How I Met Your Mother, Friends, and all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just pop culture that made him want to immigrate here. He also wanted to leave India altogether. As close as his family is, his upbringing was, at times, strained. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just pop culture that made him want to immigrate here. He also wanted to leave India altogether. As close as his family is, his upbringing was, at times, strained. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It was not pleasant, you can say. Like, there is this thing called caste system in India. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It was not pleasant, you can say. Like, there is this thing called caste system in India. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s caste system is thousands of years old. Historically, castes were tied to specific occupations. The higher castes were priests and warriors and rulers. The middle caste were merchants and skilled artisans. The lower caste did farm work or were servants. And then, there were people who were considered “untouchable” — and they faced the most discrimination, even today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s caste system is thousands of years old. Historically, castes were tied to specific occupations. The higher castes were priests and warriors and rulers. The middle caste were merchants and skilled artisans. The lower caste did farm work or were servants. And then, there were people who were considered “untouchable” — and they faced the most discrimination, even today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To make up for generations of discrimination and economic inequality, the Indian government has a series of programs called “reservation.” It’s kind of like affirmative action — with strict quotas. A certain percentage of government jobs and public university spots are reserved for members of lower castes. The reservation system is very controversial in India, because it’s not based on current financial status. It’s based purely on caste, which is fixed at birth. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To make up for generations of discrimination and economic inequality, the Indian government has a series of programs called “reservation.” It’s kind of like affirmative action — with strict quotas. A certain percentage of government jobs and public university spots are reserved for members of lower castes. The reservation system is very controversial in India, because it’s not based on current financial status. It’s based purely on caste, which is fixed at birth. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You know, like, reservation and caste system were introduced to uplift the lower class — uplift the backward people. It started as a good idea. You know, my family has decent money, like — okay-okay money — we are not very rich. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You know, like, reservation and caste system were introduced to uplift the lower class — uplift the backward people. It started as a good idea. You know, my family has decent money, like — okay-okay money — we are not very rich. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam’s ancestors were jewelers and fell into that middle tier of merchants and artisans. They’ve been solidly middle-class for generations. His family could not have afforded private school, so he had to compete for one of the very limited spots at his public university. There’s a key tension here between caste and class. Sam doesn’t come from a ton of money. He doesn’t have the same resources and safety net that the upper echelon of Indian society has. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam’s ancestors were jewelers and fell into that middle tier of merchants and artisans. They’ve been solidly middle-class for generations. His family could not have afforded private school, so he had to compete for one of the very limited spots at his public university. There’s a key tension here between caste and class. Sam doesn’t come from a ton of money. He doesn’t have the same resources and safety net that the upper echelon of Indian society has. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The reservation system was designed to level the playing field. While it uplifts the most oppressed classes, Sam feels like it leaves the middle class behind. He said his own opportunities in India are limited — and that there’s no upward mobility for him. Becoming a doctor was never his great life goal… but, it’s a stable career that offers a considerably better salary than other jobs in India. And, there’s demand for doctors all over the world — he sees it as a ticket out of the caste system. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The reservation system was designed to level the playing field. While it uplifts the most oppressed classes, Sam feels like it leaves the middle class behind. He said his own opportunities in India are limited — and that there’s no upward mobility for him. Becoming a doctor was never his great life goal… but, it’s a stable career that offers a considerably better salary than other jobs in India. And, there’s demand for doctors all over the world — he sees it as a ticket out of the caste system. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sam had his sights set on America. He saw it as a land of meritocracy and Grand Theft Auto. But while his parents helped him with tuition and licensing exam fees, he wanted to travel. He needed to buy his protein powder so that he could, as he put it, “get shredded.” And he wanted save up for his potential move to the U.S. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sam had his sights set on America. He saw it as a land of meritocracy and Grand Theft Auto. But while his parents helped him with tuition and licensing exam fees, he wanted to travel. He needed to buy his protein powder so that he could, as he put it, “get shredded.” And he wanted save up for his potential move to the U.S. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, he needed money. The problem? He’s in his last year of a five-and-a-half year medical program — and when he isn’t in class or working his medical internship, he’s studying for this big entrance exam to get into a post-grad medical specialty program. Plus, the job market in India sucks. Sam said that most entry-level, part-time jobs that college students typically get pay like, a dollar an hour. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, he needed money. The problem? He’s in his last year of a five-and-a-half year medical program — and when he isn’t in class or working his medical internship, he’s studying for this big entrance exam to get into a post-grad medical specialty program. Plus, the job market in India sucks. Sam said that most entry-level, part-time jobs that college students typically get pay like, a dollar an hour. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If you work four hours per day for a whole month, you can hardly earn like, $100 for a month. And like, I didn’t want to, you know, put so much effort for so little cash. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If you work four hours per day for a whole month, you can hardly earn like, $100 for a month. And like, I didn’t want to, you know, put so much effort for so little cash. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And, Sam is a product of his generation. It’s not just his gym rat tendencies. It’s what made his story so compelling to Ej. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And, Sam is a product of his generation. It’s not just his gym rat tendencies. It’s what made his story so compelling to Ej. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Sam is, I think, pretty representative of Gen Z males, in that there’s very much an emphasis on like, online side hustles. There were a lot of things that he tried to do to make money. He was doing online fitness coaching for a while, he was doing some of that like, drop shipping nonsense that all the Gen Z boys do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Sam is, I think, pretty representative of Gen Z males, in that there’s very much an emphasis on like, online side hustles. There were a lot of things that he tried to do to make money. He was doing online fitness coaching for a while, he was doing some of that like, drop shipping nonsense that all the Gen Z boys do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He tutored and sold notes and study guides for the U.S. medical licensing exam, which he already passed. He once saw Instagram ads about monetizing AI clips, so he started making AI Roblox videos for YouTube shorts. He was kind of just… chasing side hustles until something stuck. Then, while scrolling through Instagram, he came across this influencer. She was gorgeous, but Sam could tell she was AI-generated. And yet, she had a huge audience — all from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He tutored and sold notes and study guides for the U.S. medical licensing exam, which he already passed. He once saw Instagram ads about monetizing AI clips, so he started making AI Roblox videos for YouTube shorts. He was kind of just… chasing side hustles until something stuck. Then, while scrolling through Instagram, he came across this influencer. She was gorgeous, but Sam could tell she was AI-generated. And yet, she had a huge audience — all from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>She uploads pictures with Donald Trump. She’s a blonde military girl that uploads pictures with Donald Trump — and like, she had like, thousands and millions of likes, thousands of followers, so I wanted to create that. Like, Donald Trump — everyone knows him, everyone knows what he is doing, and you know, even like, me and my friends who follow American politics, we used to joke around MAGA people that they are so dumb, like they don’t understand anything… and like how can someone support Donald Trump? Like, after all that he’s doing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>She uploads pictures with Donald Trump. She’s a blonde military girl that uploads pictures with Donald Trump — and like, she had like, thousands and millions of likes, thousands of followers, so I wanted to create that. Like, Donald Trump — everyone knows him, everyone knows what he is doing, and you know, even like, me and my friends who follow American politics, we used to joke around MAGA people that they are so dumb, like they don’t understand anything… and like how can someone support Donald Trump? Like, after all that he’s doing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He hatched a plan: make a hot AI girl, go viral, and get rich. He opened Google’s AI image generator, also known as Nano Banana Pro. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He hatched a plan: make a hot AI girl, go viral, and get rich. He opened Google’s AI image generator, also known as Nano Banana Pro. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I use a lot of Gemini. I never use ChatGPT — I am a Gemini guy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I use a lot of Gemini. I never use ChatGPT — I am a Gemini guy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam initially tried to make the Indian version of the blonde military girl influencer, but it didn’t work out. For one, he said that because mainstream AI models are trained on American culture, Gemini struggled to generate a realistic-looking Indian woman. The hot Indian girl he was trying to create just looked… fake. And the second issue: he realized that Indian men just don’t spend money the way American men do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam initially tried to make the Indian version of the blonde military girl influencer, but it didn’t work out. For one, he said that because mainstream AI models are trained on American culture, Gemini struggled to generate a realistic-looking Indian woman. The hot Indian girl he was trying to create just looked… fake. And the second issue: he realized that Indian men just don’t spend money the way American men do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> And like USA, there is big tipping culture — people, you know, easily pay- they are more willing to pay. That’s why I changed it to an American influencer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> And like USA, there is big tipping culture — people, you know, easily pay- they are more willing to pay. That’s why I changed it to an American influencer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But first, he had to decide what this American influencer would be like. Sam turned to Gemini, which told him the influencer shouldn’t just be a “pretty girl.” She needed depth. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But first, he had to decide what this American influencer would be like. Sam turned to Gemini, which told him the influencer shouldn’t just be a “pretty girl.” She needed depth. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You shouldn’t create- just create a beautiful women with no personality. You want people to connect with your Instagram model — then they will be connected with you, then they will buy your services, etcetera. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You shouldn’t create- just create a beautiful women with no personality. You want people to connect with your Instagram model — then they will be connected with you, then they will buy your services, etcetera. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam had a new plan: create a hot blonde AI girl, go viral, and get rich. She would appeal to the typical American man — so that Sam could cash in on those sweet American tips. And she wouldn’t just look the part, she would have the personality of an all-American girl. Through TV shows, video games, and following American politics, he was familiar enough with American culture to pull it off. With a couple of curated prompts, he had a handful of images to start her account. The last thing he needed was a name. And that came from Gemini too: Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam had a new plan: create a hot blonde AI girl, go viral, and get rich. She would appeal to the typical American man — so that Sam could cash in on those sweet American tips. And she wouldn’t just look the part, she would have the personality of an all-American girl. Through TV shows, video games, and following American politics, he was familiar enough with American culture to pull it off. With a couple of curated prompts, he had a handful of images to start her account. The last thing he needed was a name. And that came from Gemini too: Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey guys, just enjoying the sun by the pool today. This feels so good. I’m gonna dip my toes in, so refreshing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey guys, just enjoying the sun by the pool today. This feels so good. I’m gonna dip my toes in, so refreshing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily took off — thousands of followers in just a few weeks. Sam had unlocked the formula to reach a very specific group of American men. So, how did he do it? We’re getting into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going! You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break, Emily Hart goes MAGA. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily took off — thousands of followers in just a few weeks. Sam had unlocked the formula to reach a very specific group of American men. So, how did he do it? We’re getting into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going! You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break, Emily Hart goes MAGA. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: Becoming Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: Becoming Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Gemini’s suggestion, Sam created a profile for Emily Hart, a blonde nurse from Buffalo who lives in New York City. It was pretty generic at first. He started posting as Emily in January, and immediately started getting attention… from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At Gemini’s suggestion, Sam created a profile for Emily Hart, a blonde nurse from Buffalo who lives in New York City. It was pretty generic at first. He started posting as Emily in January, and immediately started getting attention… from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Once I created it, like, initially four or five DMs, all the DMs I got, was from, you can say, old 60, 70-year-old, MAGA people like, pro-MAGA, pro-right — like, those. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Once I created it, like, initially four or five DMs, all the DMs I got, was from, you can say, old 60, 70-year-old, MAGA people like, pro-MAGA, pro-right — like, those. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And Gemini was apparently like, “You need to make a MAGA girl. You need to like a hot MAGA in a bikini, like, that’s gold.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And Gemini was apparently like, “You need to make a MAGA girl. You need to like a hot MAGA in a bikini, like, that’s gold.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He started posting images of Emily ice-fishing, drinking beer, and sexily firing rounds at the shooting range. He wrote captions like: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He started posting images of Emily ice-fishing, drinking beer, and sexily firing rounds at the shooting range. He wrote captions like: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>If you want a reason to unfollow? Christ is king, abortion is murder, and all illegals must be deported. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>If you want a reason to unfollow? Christ is king, abortion is murder, and all illegals must be deported. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And:\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>POV: you were assigned intelligent at birth, but you identify as a liberal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>POV: you were assigned intelligent at birth, but you identify as a liberal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Followed by a clown emoji.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Followed by a clown emoji.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He approached it as a craft, and he really spent a lot of time trying to perfect his craft on Gemini —because the space was so saturated, that he really needed a gimmick or a niche to kind of corner in order to be successful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He approached it as a craft, and he really spent a lot of time trying to perfect his craft on Gemini —because the space was so saturated, that he really needed a gimmick or a niche to kind of corner in order to be successful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It took a couple of weeks of consistent posting, but the payoff was real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It took a couple of weeks of consistent posting, but the payoff was real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It took me three weeks to get initial 1,000 subscribers. And from there, in one week, I had like 14,000-15,000 subscribers, 20 million views and like, all that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It took me three weeks to get initial 1,000 subscribers. And from there, in one week, I had like 14,000-15,000 subscribers, 20 million views and like, all that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It helped that Emily’s audience wasn’t the most tech savvy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It helped that Emily’s audience wasn’t the most tech savvy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I want to be clear that Gemini did not explicitly say this, but I do think that that audience is probably less technologically well-versed than progressives are, and therefore more gullible and more prone to falling toward this kind of scheme. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I want to be clear that Gemini did not explicitly say this, but I do think that that audience is probably less technologically well-versed than progressives are, and therefore more gullible and more prone to falling toward this kind of scheme. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam echoed this… more strongly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam echoed this… more strongly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but — like, what I have observed, like, the liberals and the left-wing people, they are usually smart. They are — you know, they have basic common sense. And you know, the MAGA people are like, super dumb people. I should not say that, but they are like — you can say they are not that aware on, you can say, technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but — like, what I have observed, like, the liberals and the left-wing people, they are usually smart. They are — you know, they have basic common sense. And you know, the MAGA people are like, super dumb people. I should not say that, but they are like — you can say they are not that aware on, you can say, technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That’s not to say that there aren’t easily duped liberals. I do think that internet MAGA has a much, much stronger digital aesthetic than progressives do, for sure. There’s an iconography attached to it — and just seeing like, a blonde white girl wearing an American flag bikini while ice fishing, I mean, how much more MAGA can you get? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That’s not to say that there aren’t easily duped liberals. I do think that internet MAGA has a much, much stronger digital aesthetic than progressives do, for sure. There’s an iconography attached to it — and just seeing like, a blonde white girl wearing an American flag bikini while ice fishing, I mean, how much more MAGA can you get? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s very strong visual political identity resonated with her followers. Maybe that’s why they were less likely to be suspicious of her — the bright red MAGA hat she often wore also helped obscure some of the inconsistencies in her post. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s very strong visual political identity resonated with her followers. Maybe that’s why they were less likely to be suspicious of her — the bright red MAGA hat she often wore also helped obscure some of the inconsistencies in her post. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>AI really, you know, messes up the hair also. So, to get around that, I used to include a MAGA cap in like, every image I make. So basically, like, I used to include accessories like sunglasses and MAGA cap to, you know, get two different… like, make it more believable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>AI really, you know, messes up the hair also. So, to get around that, I used to include a MAGA cap in like, every image I make. So basically, like, I used to include accessories like sunglasses and MAGA cap to, you know, get two different… like, make it more believable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it wasn’t even just, like, to appeal to MAGA. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it wasn’t even just, like, to appeal to MAGA. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, it was — you know, it was beneficial in both ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, it was — you know, it was beneficial in both ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or, maybe they didn’t suspect anything because she was hot, and that was disarming enough. Because, there were definitely red flags in Emily’s content. Video generation was less convincing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or, maybe they didn’t suspect anything because she was hot, and that was disarming enough. Because, there were definitely red flags in Emily’s content. Video generation was less convincing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey, handsome. I just got back to my tiny apartment after a 12-hour shift at Bellevue. NYC is just so loud tonight, but honestly? All I can think about is how much I missed you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey, handsome. I just got back to my tiny apartment after a 12-hour shift at Bellevue. NYC is just so loud tonight, but honestly? All I can think about is how much I missed you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So Sam usually stuck to images — but even then, he said Gemini couldn’t quite get the eyes right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So Sam usually stuck to images — but even then, he said Gemini couldn’t quite get the eyes right. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, you can say that it’s- it might not be real — there is something wrong with the picture. So you know what I used to do? Like, I used include sunglasses in every picture — every picture, I used to include sunglasses. Like, she’s wearing black sunglasses everywhere. Like she is ice-fishing, she is wearing sunglasses, like she’s inside her home, she’s wearing sunglasses. Even at night, she’s wearing sunglasses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, you can say that it’s- it might not be real — there is something wrong with the picture. So you know what I used to do? Like, I used include sunglasses in every picture — every picture, I used to include sunglasses. Like, she’s wearing black sunglasses everywhere. Like she is ice-fishing, she is wearing sunglasses, like she’s inside her home, she’s wearing sunglasses. Even at night, she’s wearing sunglasses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam studied up on MAGA ideology and how Trump supporters interact online. Every day, he’d spend 30 minutes to an hour creating content that was pro-Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, and anti-abortion. The more divisive the caption, the more engagement he got as Emily. He didn’t believe in any of this, but he knew what would get attention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam studied up on MAGA ideology and how Trump supporters interact online. Every day, he’d spend 30 minutes to an hour creating content that was pro-Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, and anti-abortion. The more divisive the caption, the more engagement he got as Emily. He didn’t believe in any of this, but he knew what would get attention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Weirdly, it was a scam that only somebody who was really interested in American culture could have pulled off, I think. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Weirdly, it was a scam that only somebody who was really interested in American culture could have pulled off, I think. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam has a real knack for engagement bait: engineering content that tricks social media algorithms to boost a post. Like, he was inspired by this TikTok trend. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam has a real knack for engagement bait: engineering content that tricks social media algorithms to boost a post. Like, he was inspired by this TikTok trend. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There was a trend — on this song, like, it was around two years ago and it was this song — “I’m stylish, big top, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There was a trend — on this song, like, it was around two years ago and it was this song — “I’m stylish, big top, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok trend video]: \u003c/strong>Bitch I’m stylish, black talk, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish. Watch on my wrist but I want that…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok trend video]: \u003c/strong>Bitch I’m stylish, black talk, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish. Watch on my wrist but I want that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The videos usually started with someone getting ready, in a frumpy get-up — and, when the beat dropped, it would cut to them, fully glammed up. Sam was inspired by that split-second transition on the beat. So, using other songs, he put his own spin on it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The videos usually started with someone getting ready, in a frumpy get-up — and, when the beat dropped, it would cut to them, fully glammed up. Sam was inspired by that split-second transition on the beat. So, using other songs, he put his own spin on it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I used to upload like, you can say, a catfish type of reel. There was like, four to six seconds reel of Emily Hart, a picture with her like, normal clothes. And then I used a sneak-in, like, for a millisecond, a picture of her in a swimsuit, you can say… sort of, like, a decent word — a swimsuit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I used to upload like, you can say, a catfish type of reel. There was like, four to six seconds reel of Emily Hart, a picture with her like, normal clothes. And then I used a sneak-in, like, for a millisecond, a picture of her in a swimsuit, you can say… sort of, like, a decent word — a swimsuit. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Driven by horny curiosity, viewers would try to pause the video in time to see the picture. And if they didn’t catch it in time, they’d have to play the video again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Driven by horny curiosity, viewers would try to pause the video in time to see the picture. And if they didn’t catch it in time, they’d have to play the video again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And for that, they used to again and again, see multiple times, like four, five times, six times. So that Instagram gets the signal that this reel is so good that people are viewing it five to six times, so promote it. So normally I used to get like 200, 300 views, and like, these type of views used to get like, 10,000, 50,000, 25,000 views. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And for that, they used to again and again, see multiple times, like four, five times, six times. So that Instagram gets the signal that this reel is so good that people are viewing it five to six times, so promote it. So normally I used to get like 200, 300 views, and like, these type of views used to get like, 10,000, 50,000, 25,000 views. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was a hit. Within a few weeks, she had over 15,000 followers on Instagram — which is a fraction of what the most popular real influencers have, but to build this following in such a short time period with such minimal effort? Real influencers grind for months to build that. Sam felt like he had unlocked something. His MAGA influencer was going strong, but he wondered if there was an untapped market out there. So… he tried to recreate the magic of Emily Hart, but this time for a liberal audience. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was a hit. Within a few weeks, she had over 15,000 followers on Instagram — which is a fraction of what the most popular real influencers have, but to build this following in such a short time period with such minimal effort? Real influencers grind for months to build that. Sam felt like he had unlocked something. His MAGA influencer was going strong, but he wondered if there was an untapped market out there. So… he tried to recreate the magic of Emily Hart, but this time for a liberal audience. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was very stereotypical. I mean, less aggressively so than Emily Hart, but it was like a girl with dyed red hair and a nose ring who would like post cute selfies with a coffee cup in Bushwick. You know, it was very generic. It was clear that she wasn’t as fully fleshed out as Emily Hart was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was very stereotypical. I mean, less aggressively so than Emily Hart, but it was like a girl with dyed red hair and a nose ring who would like post cute selfies with a coffee cup in Bushwick. You know, it was very generic. It was clear that she wasn’t as fully fleshed out as Emily Hart was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, it was a complete flop because people used to know that it’s an AI flop and they like, usually didn’t interact with it, like, they didn’t comment. They were like, “This is AI slop, this is trash, we don’t have time,” something like that. And like, the MAGA people were like crazy — “Are you single? Can I message you?” Something like that. They were, you can say, a little more lusty, you can say. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, it was a complete flop because people used to know that it’s an AI flop and they like, usually didn’t interact with it, like, they didn’t comment. They were like, “This is AI slop, this is trash, we don’t have time,” something like that. And like, the MAGA people were like crazy — “Are you single? Can I message you?” Something like that. They were, you can say, a little more lusty, you can say. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, it was fine. Sam had his hands full with Emily, anyway. In the early days, he got a real kick out of duping conservative men who had no idea they were talking to a 22-year-old Indian guy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, it was fine. Sam had his hands full with Emily, anyway. In the early days, he got a real kick out of duping conservative men who had no idea they were talking to a 22-year-old Indian guy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They were super racist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They were super racist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When he created Emily’s Facebook profile, he accidentally set his location to New Delhi. A random man messaged the profile. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When he created Emily’s Facebook profile, he accidentally set his location to New Delhi. A random man messaged the profile. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So, like, he went through my Facebook profile, he went through that, and he saw New Delhi. And he was like, “Have you been to India?” And I didn’t even say anything. And he used to like, “India is not a good place. It’s not safe for women. You shouldn’t have gone there.” And you know, the racist comments. And I didn’t talk to him. Like, he said, “Hi,” I said, “Hello.” Okay — then he started all this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So, like, he went through my Facebook profile, he went through that, and he saw New Delhi. And he was like, “Have you been to India?” And I didn’t even say anything. And he used to like, “India is not a good place. It’s not safe for women. You shouldn’t have gone there.” And you know, the racist comments. And I didn’t talk to him. Like, he said, “Hi,” I said, “Hello.” Okay — then he started all this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it never occurred to him that he could be just talking to someone who was Indian? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it never occurred to him that he could be just talking to someone who was Indian? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>No. It was a little fun like, you know, like, making a fool of such people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>No. It was a little fun like, you know, like, making a fool of such people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But this wasn’t just for fun. The entire reason he got into this was to make some cash. So, how did he monetize Emily Hart? That’s a new tab: why was Emily Hart so successful? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But this wasn’t just for fun. The entire reason he got into this was to make some cash. So, how did he monetize Emily Hart? That’s a new tab: why was Emily Hart so successful? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Instagram is very strict about nudity and adult content. So, like many real human sex workers, Emily’s Instagram account was a vehicle to drive engagement to another site: Fanvue. The most popular subscription platform for adult content is OnlyFans. Using AI tools to edit content and manage messages is allowed, but the site totally bans “synthetic personas” — fully AI-generated characters like Emily Hart. In fact, a lot of adult subscription sites do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Instagram is very strict about nudity and adult content. So, like many real human sex workers, Emily’s Instagram account was a vehicle to drive engagement to another site: Fanvue. The most popular subscription platform for adult content is OnlyFans. Using AI tools to edit content and manage messages is allowed, but the site totally bans “synthetic personas” — fully AI-generated characters like Emily Hart. In fact, a lot of adult subscription sites do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Instead, Sam used Fanvue, which is where a lot AI influencers sell nudes. Google’s Gemini blocks the generation of explicit content, and although there are ways to get around it, Sam’s hustle was all about doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money. So, he used Grok. He generated a couple nudes, uploaded them to Fanvue, set a subscription fee, and locked the juiciest content behind a paywall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Instead, Sam used Fanvue, which is where a lot AI influencers sell nudes. Google’s Gemini blocks the generation of explicit content, and although there are ways to get around it, Sam’s hustle was all about doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money. So, he used Grok. He generated a couple nudes, uploaded them to Fanvue, set a subscription fee, and locked the juiciest content behind a paywall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then… the cash started rolling in. Sam was blown away at how easily Americans spent money. He couldn’t believe they were tipping him — or really, Emily — just to respond to their messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then… the cash started rolling in. Sam was blown away at how easily Americans spent money. He couldn’t believe they were tipping him — or really, Emily — just to respond to their messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People used to hugely tip. I don’t know why people tip in USA — like, I am 22 years old, I have never in my life once seen someone tipping in India. And like, people were like, crazy, they used to tip me $20, $10, and I was thinking like, “Why people are sending me extra money? I dont know.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People used to hugely tip. I don’t know why people tip in USA — like, I am 22 years old, I have never in my life once seen someone tipping in India. And like, people were like, crazy, they used to tip me $20, $10, and I was thinking like, “Why people are sending me extra money? I dont know.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He made a few thousand dollars within days of starting the account. Again, human adult content creators grind for years to get this kind of audience… and to generate anything close to this amount of revenue. What was it about Emily that made her so popular? Ej has a theory. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He made a few thousand dollars within days of starting the account. Again, human adult content creators grind for years to get this kind of audience… and to generate anything close to this amount of revenue. What was it about Emily that made her so popular? Ej has a theory. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think that probably at the time that Sam was doing this, the space was a little less saturated, so there was less competition. And, I think, probably the most major contributor to this is the fact that there’s a really strong element of self-delusion at play here, right? In order to buy into Emily Hart’s whole persona, you not only have to believe that this woman exists, you have to be believe that she is a hot 24-year-old girl who exists and believes exactly the same things as you do — and validates every single opinion you have. I think these men got off to that probably more than anything. And I think that’s very powerful for the MAGA sect. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think that probably at the time that Sam was doing this, the space was a little less saturated, so there was less competition. And, I think, probably the most major contributor to this is the fact that there’s a really strong element of self-delusion at play here, right? In order to buy into Emily Hart’s whole persona, you not only have to believe that this woman exists, you have to be believe that she is a hot 24-year-old girl who exists and believes exactly the same things as you do — and validates every single opinion you have. I think these men got off to that probably more than anything. And I think that’s very powerful for the MAGA sect. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are real adult content creators who are also conservative. Ej pointed to Brandi Love, who’s known for making MILF porn and also being a vocal Trump supporter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are real adult content creators who are also conservative. Ej pointed to Brandi Love, who’s known for making MILF porn and also being a vocal Trump supporter. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think what differentiates Emily from someone like Brandi, is Brandi does not make it integral to her persona, right? She very rarely posts about politics, and that’s Emily’s entire brand is combining politics with sex. With the conservative adult creators, the politics are kind of incidental to the main product, which is the sex. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think what differentiates Emily from someone like Brandi, is Brandi does not make it integral to her persona, right? She very rarely posts about politics, and that’s Emily’s entire brand is combining politics with sex. With the conservative adult creators, the politics are kind of incidental to the main product, which is the sex. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam knew he was playing into some kind of fantasy, and soon after starting the Fanvue account, started feeling really bad about it. He didn’t like the idea of deceiving anyone for money. Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI, but Sam wasn’t making money there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam knew he was playing into some kind of fantasy, and soon after starting the Fanvue account, started feeling really bad about it. He didn’t like the idea of deceiving anyone for money. Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI, but Sam wasn’t making money there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If someone paid for my Fanvue, I used to disclose it — like, you should know this, before spending like, too much money. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If someone paid for my Fanvue, I used to disclose it — like, you should know this, before spending like, too much money. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And when subscribers sent him additional tips on Fanvue, he’d actually message them back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And when subscribers sent him additional tips on Fanvue, he’d actually message them back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, I used to say to them — “That you should know, I’m artificially generated.”. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, I used to say to them — “That you should know, I’m artificially generated.”. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The wild thing is, the subscribers didn’t seem to care at all — even when Sam reminded them that the girl they were paying wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The wild thing is, the subscribers didn’t seem to care at all — even when Sam reminded them that the girl they were paying wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, two or three people messaged me, like, “We think that you are AI-generated, but we love the reels you are making. You are supporting Trump, you are supporting the Republicans, so we will support you. We don’t care.” So, many were like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, two or three people messaged me, like, “We think that you are AI-generated, but we love the reels you are making. You are supporting Trump, you are supporting the Republicans, so we will support you. We don’t care.” So, many were like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really don’t think that the majority of these men care if the woman on the other side of the screen is fake — and that’s kind of the scariest part to me, because I think that that principle applies to AI-generated content on the internet in general. I don’t think people care if something is real or fake anymore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really don’t think that the majority of these men care if the woman on the other side of the screen is fake — and that’s kind of the scariest part to me, because I think that that principle applies to AI-generated content on the internet in general. I don’t think people care if something is real or fake anymore. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What would drive Emily Hart subscribers to continue following her, subscribing to her exclusive content, and even paying to DM her if they knew she wasn’t really a hot 24-year-old, pickup truck-driving, ice-fishing nurse in New York City? They knew the pictures they were liking and saving — among other things — were generated using AI. At that point, why continue following her? Why not just chat with an AI girlfriend on Character AI or something? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What would drive Emily Hart subscribers to continue following her, subscribing to her exclusive content, and even paying to DM her if they knew she wasn’t really a hot 24-year-old, pickup truck-driving, ice-fishing nurse in New York City? They knew the pictures they were liking and saving — among other things — were generated using AI. At that point, why continue following her? Why not just chat with an AI girlfriend on Character AI or something? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really think it comes down to this idea of intimacy, which is the whole reason why OnlyFans blew up in the first place. Like, the whole premise of OnlyFans is that men are directly connecting with the objects of their fantasies. And, the level of intimacy that is provided by that exchange goes beyond sex, it goes beyond getting off. It really is about human connection. So I think that a lot of the men who paid for Emily Hart’s content were sort of willing to suspend their disbelief in exchange for that element of intimacy, of connection, of human interaction that they were trying to convince themselves that they were getting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really think it comes down to this idea of intimacy, which is the whole reason why OnlyFans blew up in the first place. Like, the whole premise of OnlyFans is that men are directly connecting with the objects of their fantasies. And, the level of intimacy that is provided by that exchange goes beyond sex, it goes beyond getting off. It really is about human connection. So I think that a lot of the men who paid for Emily Hart’s content were sort of willing to suspend their disbelief in exchange for that element of intimacy, of connection, of human interaction that they were trying to convince themselves that they were getting. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was making way more money than he ever could have made working a part-time job during school. Every day, he generates some more Emily content and come up with a racist, xenophobic caption that he knew would get attention. He kept an eye on all the viral trends that other hot girls, AI or not, were doing on Instagram and TikTok. Emily’s fans weren’t just American either. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was making way more money than he ever could have made working a part-time job during school. Every day, he generates some more Emily content and come up with a racist, xenophobic caption that he knew would get attention. He kept an eye on all the viral trends that other hot girls, AI or not, were doing on Instagram and TikTok. Emily’s fans weren’t just American either. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I got a guy from Germany, I got a guy from Switzerland, like, many different people. Like, on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like, my DM was filled, every day I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I got a guy from Germany, I got a guy from Switzerland, like, many different people. Like, on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like, my DM was filled, every day I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam ignored most of the Instagram messages, but made sure that Fanvue subscribers got a response, because they had to pay to unlock those. The site has an AI feature that generates messages based on previous chats, so he could automate responses. Although he didn’t have to respond to subscribers himself, he did have to see what they sent back. And they were getting a little too comfortable in Emily’s DMs. That’s a whole new tab: Emily Hart’s Simp Army. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I can’t even say what people were sending me to Instagram, like, it’s inappropriate. But like, people are sending inappropriate images, inappropriate messages. “Hey, are you single? What’s up? Where do you live?” Like, these are general. But like, some people were like, so creepy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I can’t even say what people were sending me to Instagram, like, it’s inappropriate. But like, people are sending inappropriate images, inappropriate messages. “Hey, are you single? What’s up? Where do you live?” Like, these are general. But like, some people were like, so creepy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Navigating the internet as Emily was an eye-opening experience for Sam. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My friends don’t even message me that much. When I started, I used to get like, 10-15 messages, easily. Like, so much attention. And I was thinking like, “Do pretty women get so much attention?” Like, I was like, surprised. But it’s not good kind of attention — it’s not the kind of attention people want. It’s super disgusting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My friends don’t even message me that much. When I started, I used to get like, 10-15 messages, easily. Like, so much attention. And I was thinking like, “Do pretty women get so much attention?” Like, I was like, surprised. But it’s not good kind of attention — it’s not the kind of attention people want. It’s super disgusting. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As Emily Hart — patriot and rising Fanvue star —Sam experienced what women haven’t subjected to since the birth of texting: unsolicited dick pics. He was appalled. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image. Like, it was super weird, super creepy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image. Like, it was super weird, super creepy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He learned to stop checking Emily Hart’s Instagram messages, but he couldn’t ignore the ones on Fanvue, because that’s where he was making money. One guy on Fanvue sent him 50 bucks, and then to accompany the tip, the subscriber attached a video of himself, naked, humping a pillow that propped up a tablet with Emily’s nude. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He learned to stop checking Emily Hart’s Instagram messages, but he couldn’t ignore the ones on Fanvue, because that’s where he was making money. One guy on Fanvue sent him 50 bucks, and then to accompany the tip, the subscriber attached a video of himself, naked, humping a pillow that propped up a tablet with Emily’s nude. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I mean, these guys were sending him cum tributes, like they were ejaculating on photos of Emily Hart, or like sending videos of themselves masturbating on Emily Hart’s photo — and he would have to see this, like, all the time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I mean, these guys were sending him cum tributes, like they were ejaculating on photos of Emily Hart, or like sending videos of themselves masturbating on Emily Hart’s photo — and he would have to see this, like, all the time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, there was the emotional toll, too. The unsolicited videos were gross, but they were nothing compared to the trauma-dumping that Emily’s subscribers did in her DMs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, there was the emotional toll, too. The unsolicited videos were gross, but they were nothing compared to the trauma-dumping that Emily’s subscribers did in her DMs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He would get messages all the time from people who would buy her videos and buy her exclusive content — and they would be like, “Are you real or are you AI?” But then they would go on and talk about their days, or talk about how lonely they were, how much they hated their wives. I found Sam very thoughtful and self-reflective. I think that he felt guilty about deceiving them, honestly. They would share things with him sometimes that went beyond the typical OnlyFans model-subscriber relationship. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He would get messages all the time from people who would buy her videos and buy her exclusive content — and they would be like, “Are you real or are you AI?” But then they would go on and talk about their days, or talk about how lonely they were, how much they hated their wives. I found Sam very thoughtful and self-reflective. I think that he felt guilty about deceiving them, honestly. They would share things with him sometimes that went beyond the typical OnlyFans model-subscriber relationship. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just going back to that idea of intimacy and human connection, like they would talk about how terrible their marriages were and they hadn’t slept in the same bed as and their wives in years and how they recently lost a parent or a beloved family member. When there was a theoretical audience of dumb MAGA guys paying for this content, I think he was more comfortable with that than with engaging with them all on an individual level and being like, “Oh, these are real people with real problems.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just going back to that idea of intimacy and human connection, like they would talk about how terrible their marriages were and they hadn’t slept in the same bed as and their wives in years and how they recently lost a parent or a beloved family member. When there was a theoretical audience of dumb MAGA guys paying for this content, I think he was more comfortable with that than with engaging with them all on an individual level and being like, “Oh, these are real people with real problems.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The AI MAGA hot girl venture was supposed to be easy cash. And the fact that he was tricking Americans, whose politics he fundamentally disagreed with — who would probably be horrified to find out they were sending cum tributes to a 22-year-old Indian guy — felt like poetic justice. But the grift… stoped being fun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The AI MAGA hot girl venture was supposed to be easy cash. And the fact that he was tricking Americans, whose politics he fundamentally disagreed with — who would probably be horrified to find out they were sending cum tributes to a 22-year-old Indian guy — felt like poetic justice. But the grift… stoped being fun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it got too intense. I think he got burnt out by it very fast. He wasn’t doing it for very long. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it got too intense. I think he got burnt out by it very fast. He wasn’t doing it for very long. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the Instagram ban started. The scammer accusations followed. Emily Hart, AKA Sam, was under fire. That’s it for part one of the story, but don’t worry. We’re not finished with this deep dive yet. Next week, we’re getting into the rest of the Emily Hart saga, the scammer debate, and what happened with Sam’s lifelong dream of moving to America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the Instagram ban started. The scammer accusations followed. Emily Hart, AKA Sam, was under fire. That’s it for part one of the story, but don’t worry. We’re not finished with this deep dive yet. Next week, we’re getting into the rest of the Emily Hart saga, the scammer debate, and what happened with Sam’s lifelong dream of moving to America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs before part two drops next week, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. We’re leaving these tabs open for now. So, come back for the rest of the story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs before part two drops next week, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. We’re leaving these tabs open for now. So, come back for the rest of the story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited and audio engineered by Chris Egusa. Production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his White Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his White Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. We also used a clip of the song “Billie Eilish” by Armani White. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But you will have to, uh — for the normies — explain what cum tributes are. \u003cem>[Laughs].\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8396912565\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/ai-generated-influencers-a-new-wave-of-cultural-exploitation-248956\">AI‑generated influencers: A new wave of cultural exploitation\u003c/a> — Ateqah Khaki & Vinita Srivastava, \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-brandi-love-the-pro-trump-porn-star-who-writes-for-the-federalist/\">Meet Brandi Love, the Pro-Trump Porn Star Who Writes for The Federalist\u003c/a> — Marlow Stern, \u003cem>The Daily Beast \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theworld.org/stories/2026/06/19/challenges-under-indias-university-reservation-system\">Challenges under India’s university reservation system \u003c/a> — Namrata Kolachalam, \u003cem>The World \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabby Cats, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends — post about it. You too, can be part of our volunteer clipping army. We can’t let the looksmaxxers win the clip wars. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains some graphic descriptions of sexual content, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>So, Emily Hart was a 23-year-old nurse, I believe? Born in Buffalo, lived in New York City, who loved ice fishing and Michelob Light and America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej Dickson is a reporter for Wired. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>My job is to explain things that people are too afraid to Google at work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And at the beginning of the year, she started looking into this influencer… who went by Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And she was a very pretty blonde girl, she looked a little bit like Jennifer Lawrence… loved posing on her pickup truck, in American flag bikinis. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily frequently wore a bright red, “Make America Great Again” hat in her photos. She would post Instagram reels set to John Denver’s “Take Me Home, Country Roads,” with captions laden with American flag emojis. Most of her content was about deporting, quote, “illegals” and supporting Trump. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Love posting racist memes and transphobic memes — you know, touching every single one of the MAGA bases. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She had that no-makeup makeup look, and when she wasn’t in a bikini or ice fishing, she posted about being a nurse. Within a few weeks of starting her account, Emily Hart had more than 10,000 followers. It was like everything about her was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There are certain aspects of the Emily Hart brand that are so uniquely American that people who are only from America would understand like, ice fishing or Michelob Ultra and sort of the status that it has as the beer of like, the MAGA world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She’s a Trump supporter’s perfect woman. There’s just one problem — Emily Hart is not real. She’s completely AI-generated. If you look past her perfect body, bleached hair, and very polarizing captions, you’d spot the inconsistencies. I mean, who goes ice fishing in a bikini? EJ said that those inconsistencies are what tipped her off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Her profile said that she went to school in New York and currently lived in New York and she was from Buffalo — like the chances are very low that somebody that explicitly conservative would move to New York City for college and live in New York city and be like, a real human being — honestly. I mean, I’m sure they exist — I don’t think they look like Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in 2024, following Trump’s presidential win, EJ started seeing all of these tradwife-adjacent videos. They almost all featured a beautiful young blonde woman, in her 20s, kneading dough or sweeping the floor of a rustic kitchen. And, unlike the more modestly dressed tradwife influencers who popularized this content, the women in these videos were almost always wearing very low- cut dresses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There was sort of this sense of uncanny valley attached to them where it was like, “Oh these don’t really look like real people,” but they’re obviously trying to cater to a real… and honestly very terrifying audience. So, I started digging into it, because I saw one or two of these accounts and I was like “I bet there are more of them,” and just fell down this rabbit hole of AI MAGA hot girl accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was just one of countless AI MAGA hot girls taking over Instagram. These women are not real, but the people running their accounts are — and Ej found one of them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My pseudonym is Sam. I am a 22-year-old medical student. Currently, I am in my final year of medical school, and that’s pretty much it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam is the creator of Emily Hart, and what began as a get-rich-quick scheme for him quickly spiraled out of control. So, who is Sam, and what would possess him to create an AI MAGA hot girl? The saga of Emily Hart is such a wild ride that we’re actually going to split this deep dive into two parts. There’s so much to unpack here about the strange intersection of politics, AI, virtual influencers, privilege, and digital sex work. But today, we’re starting with Sam’s story. How did this 22-year-old student in India manage to dupe so many conservative men? Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know how every good deep dive starts. Let’s open a new tab: Who is the real Emily Hart? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve probably picked up on this by now, but this tab is not about Emily Hart at all. It’s about the guy who made her. And in some ways, he’s like a lot of other straight guys his age. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I’m a big time gym rat. Like, even right now like, I’m talking to you and I’m completing my daily steps. Building a lean physique, getting shredded — that gives me happiness. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He asked that we call him Sam. We’re using a pseudonym for him because he’s in his final year of medical school, and is concerned about how this story could jeopardize his medical career and ability to emigrate to another country after graduation. Sam is 22, lives in northern India, and is studying orthopedic surgery. He’s from a middle-class family. Like a lot of Indians, he lives in an intergenerational household with his parents, grandparents, aunt, and uncle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, my cousins, they are like my real brother and sister — you get a lot of love, you get a lot of support. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And Sam has always been fascinated by American culture. When I got on a call with him, he was like, “Wait, you live in Los Angeles? Is it really like Grand Theft Auto?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I follow American politics. I wanted to do my post-graduation from USA. I was super into American culture, like — playing GTA, Grand Theft Auto, like, watching, uh, you can say, TV show, of like How I Met Your Mother, Friends, and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just pop culture that made him want to immigrate here. He also wanted to leave India altogether. As close as his family is, his upbringing was, at times, strained. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It was not pleasant, you can say. Like, there is this thing called caste system in India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s caste system is thousands of years old. Historically, castes were tied to specific occupations. The higher castes were priests and warriors and rulers. The middle caste were merchants and skilled artisans. The lower caste did farm work or were servants. And then, there were people who were considered “untouchable” — and they faced the most discrimination, even today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To make up for generations of discrimination and economic inequality, the Indian government has a series of programs called “reservation.” It’s kind of like affirmative action — with strict quotas. A certain percentage of government jobs and public university spots are reserved for members of lower castes. The reservation system is very controversial in India, because it’s not based on current financial status. It’s based purely on caste, which is fixed at birth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You know, like, reservation and caste system were introduced to uplift the lower class — uplift the backward people. It started as a good idea. You know, my family has decent money, like — okay-okay money — we are not very rich. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam’s ancestors were jewelers and fell into that middle tier of merchants and artisans. They’ve been solidly middle-class for generations. His family could not have afforded private school, so he had to compete for one of the very limited spots at his public university. There’s a key tension here between caste and class. Sam doesn’t come from a ton of money. He doesn’t have the same resources and safety net that the upper echelon of Indian society has. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The reservation system was designed to level the playing field. While it uplifts the most oppressed classes, Sam feels like it leaves the middle class behind. He said his own opportunities in India are limited — and that there’s no upward mobility for him. Becoming a doctor was never his great life goal… but, it’s a stable career that offers a considerably better salary than other jobs in India. And, there’s demand for doctors all over the world — he sees it as a ticket out of the caste system. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sam had his sights set on America. He saw it as a land of meritocracy and Grand Theft Auto. But while his parents helped him with tuition and licensing exam fees, he wanted to travel. He needed to buy his protein powder so that he could, as he put it, “get shredded.” And he wanted save up for his potential move to the U.S. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, he needed money. The problem? He’s in his last year of a five-and-a-half year medical program — and when he isn’t in class or working his medical internship, he’s studying for this big entrance exam to get into a post-grad medical specialty program. Plus, the job market in India sucks. Sam said that most entry-level, part-time jobs that college students typically get pay like, a dollar an hour. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If you work four hours per day for a whole month, you can hardly earn like, $100 for a month. And like, I didn’t want to, you know, put so much effort for so little cash. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And, Sam is a product of his generation. It’s not just his gym rat tendencies. It’s what made his story so compelling to Ej. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Sam is, I think, pretty representative of Gen Z males, in that there’s very much an emphasis on like, online side hustles. There were a lot of things that he tried to do to make money. He was doing online fitness coaching for a while, he was doing some of that like, drop shipping nonsense that all the Gen Z boys do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He tutored and sold notes and study guides for the U.S. medical licensing exam, which he already passed. He once saw Instagram ads about monetizing AI clips, so he started making AI Roblox videos for YouTube shorts. He was kind of just… chasing side hustles until something stuck. Then, while scrolling through Instagram, he came across this influencer. She was gorgeous, but Sam could tell she was AI-generated. And yet, she had a huge audience — all from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>She uploads pictures with Donald Trump. She’s a blonde military girl that uploads pictures with Donald Trump — and like, she had like, thousands and millions of likes, thousands of followers, so I wanted to create that. Like, Donald Trump — everyone knows him, everyone knows what he is doing, and you know, even like, me and my friends who follow American politics, we used to joke around MAGA people that they are so dumb, like they don’t understand anything… and like how can someone support Donald Trump? Like, after all that he’s doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He hatched a plan: make a hot AI girl, go viral, and get rich. He opened Google’s AI image generator, also known as Nano Banana Pro. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I use a lot of Gemini. I never use ChatGPT — I am a Gemini guy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam initially tried to make the Indian version of the blonde military girl influencer, but it didn’t work out. For one, he said that because mainstream AI models are trained on American culture, Gemini struggled to generate a realistic-looking Indian woman. The hot Indian girl he was trying to create just looked… fake. And the second issue: he realized that Indian men just don’t spend money the way American men do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> And like USA, there is big tipping culture — people, you know, easily pay- they are more willing to pay. That’s why I changed it to an American influencer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But first, he had to decide what this American influencer would be like. Sam turned to Gemini, which told him the influencer shouldn’t just be a “pretty girl.” She needed depth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You shouldn’t create- just create a beautiful women with no personality. You want people to connect with your Instagram model — then they will be connected with you, then they will buy your services, etcetera. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam had a new plan: create a hot blonde AI girl, go viral, and get rich. She would appeal to the typical American man — so that Sam could cash in on those sweet American tips. And she wouldn’t just look the part, she would have the personality of an all-American girl. Through TV shows, video games, and following American politics, he was familiar enough with American culture to pull it off. With a couple of curated prompts, he had a handful of images to start her account. The last thing he needed was a name. And that came from Gemini too: Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey guys, just enjoying the sun by the pool today. This feels so good. I’m gonna dip my toes in, so refreshing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily took off — thousands of followers in just a few weeks. Sam had unlocked the formula to reach a very specific group of American men. So, how did he do it? We’re getting into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going! You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break, Emily Hart goes MAGA. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: Becoming Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Gemini’s suggestion, Sam created a profile for Emily Hart, a blonde nurse from Buffalo who lives in New York City. It was pretty generic at first. He started posting as Emily in January, and immediately started getting attention… from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Once I created it, like, initially four or five DMs, all the DMs I got, was from, you can say, old 60, 70-year-old, MAGA people like, pro-MAGA, pro-right — like, those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And Gemini was apparently like, “You need to make a MAGA girl. You need to like a hot MAGA in a bikini, like, that’s gold.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He started posting images of Emily ice-fishing, drinking beer, and sexily firing rounds at the shooting range. He wrote captions like: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>If you want a reason to unfollow? Christ is king, abortion is murder, and all illegals must be deported. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>POV: you were assigned intelligent at birth, but you identify as a liberal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Followed by a clown emoji.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He approached it as a craft, and he really spent a lot of time trying to perfect his craft on Gemini —because the space was so saturated, that he really needed a gimmick or a niche to kind of corner in order to be successful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It took a couple of weeks of consistent posting, but the payoff was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It took me three weeks to get initial 1,000 subscribers. And from there, in one week, I had like 14,000-15,000 subscribers, 20 million views and like, all that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It helped that Emily’s audience wasn’t the most tech savvy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I want to be clear that Gemini did not explicitly say this, but I do think that that audience is probably less technologically well-versed than progressives are, and therefore more gullible and more prone to falling toward this kind of scheme. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam echoed this… more strongly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but — like, what I have observed, like, the liberals and the left-wing people, they are usually smart. They are — you know, they have basic common sense. And you know, the MAGA people are like, super dumb people. I should not say that, but they are like — you can say they are not that aware on, you can say, technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That’s not to say that there aren’t easily duped liberals. I do think that internet MAGA has a much, much stronger digital aesthetic than progressives do, for sure. There’s an iconography attached to it — and just seeing like, a blonde white girl wearing an American flag bikini while ice fishing, I mean, how much more MAGA can you get? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s very strong visual political identity resonated with her followers. Maybe that’s why they were less likely to be suspicious of her — the bright red MAGA hat she often wore also helped obscure some of the inconsistencies in her post. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>AI really, you know, messes up the hair also. So, to get around that, I used to include a MAGA cap in like, every image I make. So basically, like, I used to include accessories like sunglasses and MAGA cap to, you know, get two different… like, make it more believable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it wasn’t even just, like, to appeal to MAGA. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, it was — you know, it was beneficial in both ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or, maybe they didn’t suspect anything because she was hot, and that was disarming enough. Because, there were definitely red flags in Emily’s content. Video generation was less convincing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey, handsome. I just got back to my tiny apartment after a 12-hour shift at Bellevue. NYC is just so loud tonight, but honestly? All I can think about is how much I missed you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So Sam usually stuck to images — but even then, he said Gemini couldn’t quite get the eyes right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, you can say that it’s- it might not be real — there is something wrong with the picture. So you know what I used to do? Like, I used include sunglasses in every picture — every picture, I used to include sunglasses. Like, she’s wearing black sunglasses everywhere. Like she is ice-fishing, she is wearing sunglasses, like she’s inside her home, she’s wearing sunglasses. Even at night, she’s wearing sunglasses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam studied up on MAGA ideology and how Trump supporters interact online. Every day, he’d spend 30 minutes to an hour creating content that was pro-Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, and anti-abortion. The more divisive the caption, the more engagement he got as Emily. He didn’t believe in any of this, but he knew what would get attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Weirdly, it was a scam that only somebody who was really interested in American culture could have pulled off, I think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam has a real knack for engagement bait: engineering content that tricks social media algorithms to boost a post. Like, he was inspired by this TikTok trend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There was a trend — on this song, like, it was around two years ago and it was this song — “I’m stylish, big top, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok trend video]: \u003c/strong>Bitch I’m stylish, black talk, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish. Watch on my wrist but I want that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The videos usually started with someone getting ready, in a frumpy get-up — and, when the beat dropped, it would cut to them, fully glammed up. Sam was inspired by that split-second transition on the beat. So, using other songs, he put his own spin on it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I used to upload like, you can say, a catfish type of reel. There was like, four to six seconds reel of Emily Hart, a picture with her like, normal clothes. And then I used a sneak-in, like, for a millisecond, a picture of her in a swimsuit, you can say… sort of, like, a decent word — a swimsuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Driven by horny curiosity, viewers would try to pause the video in time to see the picture. And if they didn’t catch it in time, they’d have to play the video again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And for that, they used to again and again, see multiple times, like four, five times, six times. So that Instagram gets the signal that this reel is so good that people are viewing it five to six times, so promote it. So normally I used to get like 200, 300 views, and like, these type of views used to get like, 10,000, 50,000, 25,000 views. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was a hit. Within a few weeks, she had over 15,000 followers on Instagram — which is a fraction of what the most popular real influencers have, but to build this following in such a short time period with such minimal effort? Real influencers grind for months to build that. Sam felt like he had unlocked something. His MAGA influencer was going strong, but he wondered if there was an untapped market out there. So… he tried to recreate the magic of Emily Hart, but this time for a liberal audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was very stereotypical. I mean, less aggressively so than Emily Hart, but it was like a girl with dyed red hair and a nose ring who would like post cute selfies with a coffee cup in Bushwick. You know, it was very generic. It was clear that she wasn’t as fully fleshed out as Emily Hart was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, it was a complete flop because people used to know that it’s an AI flop and they like, usually didn’t interact with it, like, they didn’t comment. They were like, “This is AI slop, this is trash, we don’t have time,” something like that. And like, the MAGA people were like crazy — “Are you single? Can I message you?” Something like that. They were, you can say, a little more lusty, you can say. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, it was fine. Sam had his hands full with Emily, anyway. In the early days, he got a real kick out of duping conservative men who had no idea they were talking to a 22-year-old Indian guy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They were super racist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When he created Emily’s Facebook profile, he accidentally set his location to New Delhi. A random man messaged the profile. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So, like, he went through my Facebook profile, he went through that, and he saw New Delhi. And he was like, “Have you been to India?” And I didn’t even say anything. And he used to like, “India is not a good place. It’s not safe for women. You shouldn’t have gone there.” And you know, the racist comments. And I didn’t talk to him. Like, he said, “Hi,” I said, “Hello.” Okay — then he started all this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it never occurred to him that he could be just talking to someone who was Indian? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>No. It was a little fun like, you know, like, making a fool of such people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But this wasn’t just for fun. The entire reason he got into this was to make some cash. So, how did he monetize Emily Hart? That’s a new tab: why was Emily Hart so successful? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instagram is very strict about nudity and adult content. So, like many real human sex workers, Emily’s Instagram account was a vehicle to drive engagement to another site: Fanvue. The most popular subscription platform for adult content is OnlyFans. Using AI tools to edit content and manage messages is allowed, but the site totally bans “synthetic personas” — fully AI-generated characters like Emily Hart. In fact, a lot of adult subscription sites do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instead, Sam used Fanvue, which is where a lot AI influencers sell nudes. Google’s Gemini blocks the generation of explicit content, and although there are ways to get around it, Sam’s hustle was all about doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money. So, he used Grok. He generated a couple nudes, uploaded them to Fanvue, set a subscription fee, and locked the juiciest content behind a paywall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then… the cash started rolling in. Sam was blown away at how easily Americans spent money. He couldn’t believe they were tipping him — or really, Emily — just to respond to their messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People used to hugely tip. I don’t know why people tip in USA — like, I am 22 years old, I have never in my life once seen someone tipping in India. And like, people were like, crazy, they used to tip me $20, $10, and I was thinking like, “Why people are sending me extra money? I dont know.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He made a few thousand dollars within days of starting the account. Again, human adult content creators grind for years to get this kind of audience… and to generate anything close to this amount of revenue. What was it about Emily that made her so popular? Ej has a theory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think that probably at the time that Sam was doing this, the space was a little less saturated, so there was less competition. And, I think, probably the most major contributor to this is the fact that there’s a really strong element of self-delusion at play here, right? In order to buy into Emily Hart’s whole persona, you not only have to believe that this woman exists, you have to be believe that she is a hot 24-year-old girl who exists and believes exactly the same things as you do — and validates every single opinion you have. I think these men got off to that probably more than anything. And I think that’s very powerful for the MAGA sect. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are real adult content creators who are also conservative. Ej pointed to Brandi Love, who’s known for making MILF porn and also being a vocal Trump supporter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think what differentiates Emily from someone like Brandi, is Brandi does not make it integral to her persona, right? She very rarely posts about politics, and that’s Emily’s entire brand is combining politics with sex. With the conservative adult creators, the politics are kind of incidental to the main product, which is the sex. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam knew he was playing into some kind of fantasy, and soon after starting the Fanvue account, started feeling really bad about it. He didn’t like the idea of deceiving anyone for money. Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI, but Sam wasn’t making money there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If someone paid for my Fanvue, I used to disclose it — like, you should know this, before spending like, too much money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And when subscribers sent him additional tips on Fanvue, he’d actually message them back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, I used to say to them — “That you should know, I’m artificially generated.”. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The wild thing is, the subscribers didn’t seem to care at all — even when Sam reminded them that the girl they were paying wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, two or three people messaged me, like, “We think that you are AI-generated, but we love the reels you are making. You are supporting Trump, you are supporting the Republicans, so we will support you. We don’t care.” So, many were like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really don’t think that the majority of these men care if the woman on the other side of the screen is fake — and that’s kind of the scariest part to me, because I think that that principle applies to AI-generated content on the internet in general. I don’t think people care if something is real or fake anymore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What would drive Emily Hart subscribers to continue following her, subscribing to her exclusive content, and even paying to DM her if they knew she wasn’t really a hot 24-year-old, pickup truck-driving, ice-fishing nurse in New York City? They knew the pictures they were liking and saving — among other things — were generated using AI. At that point, why continue following her? Why not just chat with an AI girlfriend on Character AI or something? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really think it comes down to this idea of intimacy, which is the whole reason why OnlyFans blew up in the first place. Like, the whole premise of OnlyFans is that men are directly connecting with the objects of their fantasies. And, the level of intimacy that is provided by that exchange goes beyond sex, it goes beyond getting off. It really is about human connection. So I think that a lot of the men who paid for Emily Hart’s content were sort of willing to suspend their disbelief in exchange for that element of intimacy, of connection, of human interaction that they were trying to convince themselves that they were getting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was making way more money than he ever could have made working a part-time job during school. Every day, he generates some more Emily content and come up with a racist, xenophobic caption that he knew would get attention. He kept an eye on all the viral trends that other hot girls, AI or not, were doing on Instagram and TikTok. Emily’s fans weren’t just American either. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I got a guy from Germany, I got a guy from Switzerland, like, many different people. Like, on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like, my DM was filled, every day I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam ignored most of the Instagram messages, but made sure that Fanvue subscribers got a response, because they had to pay to unlock those. The site has an AI feature that generates messages based on previous chats, so he could automate responses. Although he didn’t have to respond to subscribers himself, he did have to see what they sent back. And they were getting a little too comfortable in Emily’s DMs. That’s a whole new tab: Emily Hart’s Simp Army. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the upside? Sam made a good amount of money as Emily Hart. The downside? He was dealing with some real creeps. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I can’t even say what people were sending me to Instagram, like, it’s inappropriate. But like, people are sending inappropriate images, inappropriate messages. “Hey, are you single? What’s up? Where do you live?” Like, these are general. But like, some people were like, so creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Navigating the internet as Emily was an eye-opening experience for Sam. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My friends don’t even message me that much. When I started, I used to get like, 10-15 messages, easily. Like, so much attention. And I was thinking like, “Do pretty women get so much attention?” Like, I was like, surprised. But it’s not good kind of attention — it’s not the kind of attention people want. It’s super disgusting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As Emily Hart — patriot and rising Fanvue star —Sam experienced what women haven’t subjected to since the birth of texting: unsolicited dick pics. He was appalled. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image. Like, it was super weird, super creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He learned to stop checking Emily Hart’s Instagram messages, but he couldn’t ignore the ones on Fanvue, because that’s where he was making money. One guy on Fanvue sent him 50 bucks, and then to accompany the tip, the subscriber attached a video of himself, naked, humping a pillow that propped up a tablet with Emily’s nude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I mean, these guys were sending him cum tributes, like they were ejaculating on photos of Emily Hart, or like sending videos of themselves masturbating on Emily Hart’s photo — and he would have to see this, like, all the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, there was the emotional toll, too. The unsolicited videos were gross, but they were nothing compared to the trauma-dumping that Emily’s subscribers did in her DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He would get messages all the time from people who would buy her videos and buy her exclusive content — and they would be like, “Are you real or are you AI?” But then they would go on and talk about their days, or talk about how lonely they were, how much they hated their wives. I found Sam very thoughtful and self-reflective. I think that he felt guilty about deceiving them, honestly. They would share things with him sometimes that went beyond the typical OnlyFans model-subscriber relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just going back to that idea of intimacy and human connection, like they would talk about how terrible their marriages were and they hadn’t slept in the same bed as and their wives in years and how they recently lost a parent or a beloved family member. When there was a theoretical audience of dumb MAGA guys paying for this content, I think he was more comfortable with that than with engaging with them all on an individual level and being like, “Oh, these are real people with real problems.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The AI MAGA hot girl venture was supposed to be easy cash. And the fact that he was tricking Americans, whose politics he fundamentally disagreed with — who would probably be horrified to find out they were sending cum tributes to a 22-year-old Indian guy — felt like poetic justice. But the grift… stoped being fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it got too intense. I think he got burnt out by it very fast. He wasn’t doing it for very long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the Instagram ban started. The scammer accusations followed. Emily Hart, AKA Sam, was under fire. That’s it for part one of the story, but don’t worry. We’re not finished with this deep dive yet. Next week, we’re getting into the rest of the Emily Hart saga, the scammer debate, and what happened with Sam’s lifelong dream of moving to America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs before part two drops next week, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. We’re leaving these tabs open for now. So, come back for the rest of the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited and audio engineered by Chris Egusa. Production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his White Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. We also used a clip of the song “Billie Eilish” by Armani White. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Can I say cum tributes on here or should I just- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But you will have to, uh — for the normies — explain what cum tributes are. \u003cem>[Laughs].\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Why The Ethan Klein Fair Use Lawsuits Are Way More Than Internet Beef",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Twitch streamer Denims made a reaction video about Ethan Klein’s nearly two-hour takedown video of Hasan Piker, she wasn’t expecting to be sued for copyright infringement. She employed a commonly-used method of streaming the original video and interjecting with reactions, commentary and analysis. But Klein, who was once seen as a champion of fair use after he won a similar lawsuit in 2017, sued Denims and other content creators anyway. Morgan talks to Denims and journalist Kat Tenbarge about what made these cases different and how reaction content across the internet could change based on how the courts ultimately rule.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5056668526\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/denims\">Denims\u003c/a>, political Twitch streamer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/kattenbarge?s=20\">Kat Tenbarge\u003c/a>, independent journalist, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061994/a-political-reckoning-for-twitch\">A Political Reckoning for Twitch? | KQED\u003c/a> — Close All Tabs, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-lawsuits-kaceytron-frogan-denims\">Ethan Klein’s War on Women\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-seandablack-lawsuits-kaceytron-denims-frogan-taylor-lorenz\">Ethan Klein Doesn’t Deserve My Apology\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/culture/2025/07/01/a-youtuber-kicks-up-a-stink-over-a-flatulent-reaction-video\">A YouTuber kicks up a stink over a flatulent “reaction” video\u003c/a> — staff, \u003cem>The Economist\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://copyrightlately.com/whats-up-copyright-lately-summer-2026-roundup/#h-content-nuked\">What’s Up With Copyright Lately?: Summer Breeze Edition\u003c/a> — Aaron Moss, \u003cem>Copyright Lately\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tubefilter.com/2024/09/19/should-youtube-introduce-revenue-sharing-for-reaction-content/\">Should YouTube introduce revenue-sharing for reaction content?\u003c/a> — James Hale, \u003cem>Tubefilter\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/reactgate-twitch-streamer-xqc-and-h3-podcast-host-ethan-klein-debate-whether-reaction-videos-are-stolen-content-215557884.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEHVC7yDZDpT9LR_mf2G9uNjbyzmVlCsUX88WTUkq-MGvwqcdCJw5UOuLLQrhAajCZzEi6bejwgRXLx5IK-BfXlRk0Q3ME8WghOI7A2Zqq5tCmPrEEuKTSYSQ-NzB1mJiijoGkCHCb_3T82qwCQbTkjpmoJju6xjtmOBKcvZwf5H\">‘Reactgate’: Twitch streamer xQc and ‘H3 Podcast’ host Ethan Klein debate whether ‘reaction videos’ are ‘stolen content’\u003c/a> — Katie Mather, \u003cem>Yahoo News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/4349864/ethan-klein-h3h3productions-fair-use-protection-account-fupa/\">How h3h3’s Ethan Klein Might Change YouTube Forever\u003c/a> — Melissa Chan, \u003cem>Time Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Tabbies. We need your help. If you like our deep dives and you want to hear more, then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video] \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hi there. It’s me, your old friend, Ethan Klein. It’s been a while since we’ve last spoken. In that time I’ve had three kids, all boys, I’ve lost a hundred pounds, and I’ve pissed off 75% of the in-\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And I became insane.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That second voice you just heard is Alexandra Saber, a Twitch streamer better known as…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Everyone I know calls me Denims, so…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna keep calling her Denims for this episode. She’s been on the show before, when we talked about the growing corner of political commentary on Twitch. The situation we’re diving into today is related to that. So last year, Ethan Klein, the YouTuber behind the channel H3H3 Productions and host of the H3 Podcast, dropped a content nuke. This is a long-form video format that Ethan himself popularized. It’s basically an extensive takedown criticizing another creator for their behavior, comments, and past posts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The content nuke is like a deep dive, building the case to cancel someone else. Ethan had been teasing this video for months, so his fan base was pretty hyped. And this one was about someone he had been publicly feuding with for years: streamer, political commentator, and his former friend, Hasan Piker. Ethan’s nearly 2-hour-long video starts with J. Robert Oppenheimer quoting Hindu scripture, which he famously referenced after he watched the detonation of the nuclear bomb he designed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[ Audio of J. Robert Oppenheimer]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then the video launches into a super cut of clips from Hasan’s stream, layered with footage of a nuclear bomb after impact, mushroom cloud and all. Denims wasn’t impressed, so she streamed her reaction, which did involve playing the video on her channel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of wild claims that were made in that video that were just factually untrue. And so I would pause, I would make jokes or I’d pause and I would say, well, this isn’t true. Like, here’s this and this and this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims’ reaction Twitch stream]\u003cbr>Speaker: That lines up with leftist values.\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hasan’s third claim is—\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[clicking sound]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: Okay, first of all, they he’s not even providing sources for half of this stuff. I… He’s provided like bits and segments, if any. Okay?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I think people just like myself, when I’m curious about a video, but I know that it’s going to be filled with falsehoods, I want to watch an expert talk about it and break down what’s wrong with that video, sort of like watching in a weird way, I guess, like Mythbusters. And I think that’s why a lot of people tuned into my stream to watch that the two hour video turned into a four hour livestream, cause I wanted to see someone say, no, this isn’t true. Here’s this article that shows this isn’t true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, months later, she found herself at the center of one of the most talked about lawsuits in the content creator world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I do remember that I found out the exact same way that everyone else found out. So he released this video on like June, was it, I think it was 19th.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: Hi there. My name is Ethan Klein, and my favorite hobby is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. Today, I invite you into my home to share my favorite past time with you. Join me in creating generational wealth for my attorney.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>This is a video, another video that he had been teasing for a while and I was kind of curious what it was gonna be about. I was like, is it gonna be a sequel to the original? Is it gonna be a video on some other creators? And so I’m like watching this video, I’m, like, hmm, that’s me on the screen. That is an official court document with my name on it. And then I click and it’s like, it’s almost a little bit disbelief that it’s real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Well, I’m happy to tell you guys now, I, Ethan Klein, have registered Hasan Piker content nuke with the United States Library of Congress. Some of you guys out there sweating?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims’ stream falls under this genre known as reaction content, videos and live streams in which creators react to and comment on content made by others. You’ll see this on Twitch and TikTok and YouTube and Reels. They’ll play a short clip from a movie or political speech or someone else’s video, and then give their take. Reaction content relies on this legal doctrine called fair use. Fair use is what protects the unlicensed use of copyrighted material if it’s used in news reporting, criticism, teaching, research, and commentary. And fair use is fundamental to the internet as we know it, because it protects freedom of expression. But there are, of course, limits. Which is why, at first, Denims was worried she had stepped into actual copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I go back, I watch my original video, I watched my original, like, reaction, and then I felt a lot better. I was like, okay, wait, wait…I took a 2 hour video, I turned it into 4 hours. I had a bunch of links where I showed people articles. I showed people a bunch context for things. I commented a bunch, and I really tried to transform the video and transform the content to the best of my ability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Here’s the ironic twist. The doctrine of fair use that protects content creators like Denims’? Ethan himself set the precedent when it comes to internet content by winning a different lawsuit nearly 10 years ago. In fact, for a long time, he was known as the “the fair use king.” It’s a big reason why Denims was so shocked.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Like, the guy who’s known as the “the fair use king” is going to sue me and other creators for reacting to his video. Huh?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims is not the only streamer Ethan went after, but the three creators he sued were also among dozens of others who made similar videos, all using the original content nuke. And as critics have pointed out, there’s a pattern among the creators that Ethan did choose to single out. So how did Ethan Klein, once the “the fair use king” and champion of free speech, become the kind of litigious antagonist that he once defeated?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, we’re diving into why this case is more than just a feud between influencers. It has ripple effects that would impact nearly every platform and every piece of content that you engage with online. There’s so much to unpack here. Censorship, power dynamics, and years of personal beef. It is so much bigger than just internet drama. Buckle up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s open our first tab. Why did Ethan Klein sue other streamers? Today we’re here to talk about a series of lawsuits that kind of rocked the content creator economy. At their very core, what are these three lawsuits about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So these three lawsuits are about copyright infringement and specifically whether it is a copyright infringment violation to stream and react to another creator’s content on your own platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Kat Tenbarge has also been on Close All Taps before. She’s an independent journalist who runs the newsletter Spitfire News, and she covers the intersection of influencers and politics. She also covered this case, and in doing so, unwillingly became part of the story herself. We’ll get into that part later in the episode, but let’s talk about everything leading up to these lawsuits first.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In this case, three Twitch streamers each played a YouTuber’s video on their live stream and reacted to it. And then he sued them for copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m really curious, like, who watches this content? What is the impact culturally online?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, so, so many people watch this type of content. I see it in so many different places, and I imagine that a lot of audience members don’t even register it as reaction content because it’s become so ubiquitous. But even like, the biggest news and politics creators, a lot what they do is reaction content. If you are watching somebody do like a stitch on TikTok or Instagram Reels, that’s a form of reaction content, or if you ever go on Twitch, that is reaction content for the most part, because even when someone is playing a video game, they’re still taking someone else’s intellectual property and sort of making it their own. Like, reaction content is basically one of the building blocks of most content today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, what was your first reaction, speaking of reaction content, but what was the first reaction when you saw the news of Ethan Klein’s recent lawsuits?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, my first reaction, I was pretty surprised because I think a lot of people online saw this as a very hypocritical move. Back in 2017, Ethan Klein was sued himself by another content creator for the exact same reason, copyright infringement, after he reacted to and parodied and mocked a different YouTuber’s material. And that lawsuit was a really defining point in Ethan Klein’s own career. So, you know, fast forward less than a decade later, he’s basically doing the exact same thing to these three women.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2016. This YouTuber, Matt Hoss, had this comedy series called The Bold Guy. In these sketches, Matt plays this pick-up artist who also does parkour. It has not aged well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Matt Hoss’ The Bold Guy Video]\u003cbr>Woman: Who are you calling an attention whore? \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: I’m asking, because you keep sticking your ass up in the air. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Woman: I have the right to exercise here if I want. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: Of course you do, and I have a right to approach and talk to you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In this video, the woman slaps Matt and then tells him to catch her. A parkour chase ensues. Ethan and his wife, Hila, saw this and posted their own video where they played clips and made fun of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Look, can you imagine the casting call for this? Looking for a cute, petite, parkour girl to star in my parkour sex video.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan and Hila’s video was 14 minutes long. It used three minutes of Matt’s original video. Well, Matt didn’t like that. So he filed a copyright notice with YouTube and YouTube took down Ethan and Hila’s video. Ethan and Hila challenged the takedown and argued fair use. So in 2017, Matt sued them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when this lawsuit was launched against them, they issued a plea to the YouTube community at large basically pointing out that if they lost, it would set a really bad precedent for everybody because it would mean that everybody could potentially be sued over the type of content that had already become so popular, so mainstream, and so ubiquitous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: After a year and a half of doing depositions, filing summaries, motions, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, we slammed this b*tch, dude! YES! We won the court case! YES!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when they won that case, it felt like they had established this precedent that wouldn’t just protect them, but would also protect all of these other creators.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, how did this pretty landmark decision that, like you said, set that precedent, open the door for the explosion of commentary content and reaction videos and media criticism video essays?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the the precedent that was set by Ethan and Hila winning this lawsuit was that it fell under the category of fair use as long as you were putting your own commentary spin on whatever you were reacting to. So for example, you can’t just stream someone else’s content on your channel and walk away and let it play for the entirety of the clip, but as long you’re engaging with it in some way, shape, or form, that is what the judge determined allowed it to fall under fair use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so there’s that legal precedent, but it seems like Ethan’s stance on this issue is like dramatically different. Can you briefly catch us up on how Ethan, his content, and his audience have changed since winning that 2017 lawsuit?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So since 2017, Ethan and Hila have really leaned into podcasting as like the main content that they make and the way they engage with their audience. And this drama stems from a podcast that Ethan had done previously with Hasan Piker called Leftovers. Leftovers ran for a few years and it was both of them talking about politics from this like leftist perspective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Leftovers #31]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: I mean, Trump took a fat f*cking L, dude. Yeah. And you’re seeing it already, we have a whole section in here of Republicans turning on Trump.\u003cbr>Hasan Piker: Here’s the issue. This is not a Donald Trump issue. This is a Republican party issue. Here’s why…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’ve talked about Hasan on this show a bunch. He’s the guy who turned political commentary streams into a viable genre on Twitch. Leftovers was this collaboration between the superstar of a burgeoning corner of Twitch and the YouTube “fair use king.” They joked around, made fun of Trump supporters, interviewed economists, and reacted to what was happening in politics at the time. And they genuinely did seem like friends, but ultimately, it didn’t last.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In late 2023, after Hamas attacked Israel, things really shifted between the two of them because Hasan Piker is really principled in his advocacy for Palestinians and his opposition to Israel, whereas Ethan Klein actually lived in Israel for a period of time, his wife Hila served in the IDF and is Israeli, and his perspective on the matter is very different. The two of them have kind of gone in between both sides of this, but the perception, at least widely online, is that they’re much more pro-Israeli than Hasan is. And so this drove a wedge between these content creators that has just grown and grown and grown and grown. There has been a ton of back and forth drama between the two of them, allegations slung in both directions. And it all kind of led up to Ethan creating something that he described as a content nuke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Content Nuke Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: The funny thing about me, I don’t like terrorism, and I don’t like terrorists. If they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, they’re all bad. And over time I started to learn that my co-host, he really likes terrorists.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>It was a nearly two hour long video criticizing and sort of condemning Hasan Piker. And when Ethan made this video, it obviously set off sort of a bomb in the discourse space where a bunch of different Twitch streamers, people who loved Hasan, people who hated Hasan people who were friends with Hasan, people who were sort of like associates or orbiters of Hasan they were all reacting to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In the later video where he announced the lawsuits, Ethan called the content nuke a trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: It’s not that I wanted these people to steal my video. It’s that I knew they would. The trap was set and it worked even better than I imagined it would. We captured pretty much every large streamer reacting to it in its entirety immediately after it was published.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan sued three women for using his content nuke in their reaction streams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Each of them played it while they were Twitch streaming and each of them offered their own commentary throughout the video. But the argument that Ethan made in his lawsuits is that they didn’t offer enough commentary for it to fall under fair use. And one of the things that he claimed they had done is that, they had basically established their intent to divert views from his channel so that he would reap fewer profits, which he viewed as a violation of his copyright.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Ethan himself said, many major streamers and YouTubers reacted to the content nuke. But he only went after three of them. All of them are women, and they also share a lot of political stances. Why did Ethan single them out? We’ll talk about that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OK. More on the content nuke, the lawsuits, and a tricky intimidation tactic called lawfare. That’s after this break. Stick around!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Who did Ethan Klein sue? And why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, Hasan is mentioned throughout these lawsuits pretty extensively,.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But he himself is not a defendant in any of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about the three women who are. Who are these creators? What is their content like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, so the three women who Ethan Klein sued are Kaceytron, Denims, and Frogan. And obviously those aren’t their real names. Those are the names that they go by on Twitch. But Kaceytron, I would say out of the three, had the least to do with the drama between Ethan and Hasan. She’s a longtime Twitch streamer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Kaceytron reaction video]\u003cbr>Kaceytron: I know a lot of people have been wanting to watch this without necessarily supporting Ethan Klein, so we’re gonna watch it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>She’s known for having an audience of sort of like the girls and the gays, and she does a lot of satirical, really kind of like, purposefully like tongue-in-cheek content that sometimes touches on politics. So she was one of the defendants who Ethan sued, and she also is known for having a pretty modest background. She grew up in what she and her family describes as generational poverty. And once this lawsuit was officially filed and she got served, she talked about how depressed she was and how much this was pushing her and sort of her family members to the very edge. So that was Kaceytron’s story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Denims and Frogan are two women of color who are also Twitch streamers. Denims has a bigger platform than Frogan. Frogan has worked very closely with Hasan Piker in the past, and both of them had sort of come under attack from Ethan and the H3 fandom previously because they had this sort of closer relationship with Hasan Piker. And I would say both of them also, as women of color, and Frogan in particular, as a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, also previously had received a ton of consistent, almost nonstop racist harassment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Frogan Twitch video]\u003cbr>Frogan: I do appreciate everyone’s support, and thank you for watching it with me. He doesn’t want people to know when it’s dropping because we’re all watching through other streamers. And I suggest you all watch it through other people as well.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>These lawsuits became a vector for that harassment, where it was just another reason for creators to make almost daily content about these women, smearing them, attacking them, even going so far as harassing them in some cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And it’s also worth noting that two of these women already had histories with Ethan Klein. Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So as sort of the Hamas-Israel war becomes this wedge issue driving Hasan Piker and Ethan Klein apart, you also saw Ethan really go on the attack against creators who were really supportive of Palestinians and Palestine. And one of the ways he did this is he would identify things that these creators had done as anti-Semitic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A few years ago, Frogan and Denims were part of a TwitchCon panel for Arab creators, and they jokingly created a ranking of people who can say habibi. Here’s Denims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And for some context, habibi just means my love. So like, obviously anyone can say it. It’s kind of like saying inshallah, like anyone can say that. And at the bottom of the tier list was a category called “loves sabra.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Based on the hummus brand Sabra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Which they were making fun of as like the worst hummus that you can buy at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>A hummus that most people dislike because it tastes not good. And we put a variety of creators on the bottom tier list, myself included in that category because it was just a fun tier list but we also had put Ethan Klein in that list.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Ethan had sort of characterized this as anti-Semitic because it’s an Israeli hummus brand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Me and the other four creators, got banned from Twitch for 30 days and lost ad rev. So this has been like a long standing chain of events that’s gone on for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But Ethan has also had beef with other creators who reacted to his content nuke. A couple of years ago, there was “Reactgate.” It was this huge internet wide debate over the way certain reaction creators used other people’s content without adding any real commentary or original substance. Amid the discourse, Ethan accused another Twitch streamer, xQc, of being a content thief. The feud culminated in a very heated live streamed argument between the two.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Debating xQc On Copyright-H3TV #86]\u003cbr>xQc: People would rather watch me full-screen cam, do the f*cking worm than watch your prime content. \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Bro, do it for a week. Do a week of no reaction content and see how many f*cking views you get.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>xQc was one of the many creators who reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. But despite their previous feud over this exact issue, Ethan did not sue xQc. In the video announcing the lawsuits, Ethan said,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: These people were not targeted based on their gender, their identity, their political beliefs.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it is worth noting that they all orbit Hasan Piker. They’re smaller creators with similar views who make similar content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So they do share a lot of the same audience. There’s a lot crossover there. And even on a personal level, a lot these creators are friends with each other. They have sort of like collaborations or partnerships in the past. And so they almost sort of orbit around the ecosystem that Hasan has created.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It almost seems like these lawsuits were part of a kind of proxy war with Hasan Piker.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, that is definitely how a lot of people online saw the situation. You saw a lot the same critics of Hasan pivot to support and endorse these lawsuits. And you also saw people in the H3 fandom sort of use this as part of their digital online war on Hasan and his associates, like these women who were being sued were almost treated as stand-ins for Hasan Piker himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Besides the fact that they all kind of orbit Hasan Piker, are there any theories as to why Ethan would choose to target these specific creators?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I think that like among critics of Ethan Klein, a lot of the consensus around these lawsuits is that these were more vulnerable targets. Being women in the creator space and especially women of color, your earning potential and the size of your audience tends to be smaller. In Kaseytron’s case, like we previously discussed, she expressed that she could not afford a lawsuit, that hiring a legal defense would be a significant cost that she wouldn’t be able to shoulder. Each of these women launched a GoFundMe shortly after they were sued. And each of them talked about sort of the undue financial stress that this put upon them, as compared to some of these bigger content creators like Hasan Piker, who would more easily be able to afford a legal defense because he’s making exponentially more money on the platform than these women were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So all of this is going down online. And last summer, you wrote a piece titled, “Ethan Klein’s War on Women.” What was that essay about, and how was it received?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So I wrote this piece as sort of an explainer because there wasn’t a ton of mainstream media coverage of these cases. There’s been mainstream coverage of Ethan Klein in the past, but despite how big these YouTubers are and how consequential their platforms can be, the mainstream media still doesn’t really understand them or I think appreciate how consequential they are. So I wrote this for my independent newsletter And the basic thrust of my piece is that these three women were each super, super vulnerable in their own way and that because of all of the harassment they were already receiving on a regular basis this was a moment where they were about to receive a lot more and how unfair i felt like that was and it fit in really well with the coverage that I already do because a lot of the topics that I cover are how these types of lawsuits can be used to smear and silence women. For example, I’ve covered Depp v. Heard and Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni and I’ve talked a lot about how these lawsuits and lawfare in general can be used as sort of targeted harassment against women in a really harmful and oftentimes devastating way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s very interesting the way that Ethan Klein himself reacted to the piece. What did he say?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>He basically accused me of calling him misogynistic, which I never used that word in the piece, although I guess you could draw from the title that that was the implication. But specifically what he said was, ‘I’m facing all of these allegations of me being a misogymist, so to level the playing field, I’m going to sue this other creator named SeanDaBlack.’ And SeanDaBlack is yet another Twitch streamer who also reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. And Ethan was basically saying, well, if you’re accusing me of suing a bunch of women, I’ll sue this guy as well, under the condition that he would not sue Sean if I apologized to him, which was super, super bizarre. And it definitely, you know, invoked a big response from his audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sean also seen perplexed. He responded to the threat in his own stream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack-Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: But like, ya’ll ain’t need to bring me into this. Right? I should only be mentioned in the, in the most handsome streamer conversation. That’s it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And I didn’t apologize. I, at the time, texted, like, a fellow journalist who was also involved in this and said like, you know, ‘you can post this on Twitter where I’m no longer active. And you can say that if this is truly gonna stop Ethan from suing this other creator, then I would apologize.’ But Ethan said that that didn’t count and SeanDaBlack did a stream where he was like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack -Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: Ethan’s trying to, uh, swing his dick around being like, uh-huh, I have so much money to spend. I have so much money to spend, right? He wants the back and forth. He wants me to be talking about this right now. And in his mind, he wants me to be scared. He wants me to be afraid.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So then I wrote a follow-up piece being like, Ethan Klein doesn’t deserve my apology. And fortunately, he did not sue SeanDaBlack.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Sean, Kat saw Ethan’s threat of a lawsuit for what it really was. It’s a tactic called lawfare and it’s become increasingly common, especially in the influencer space. Let’s open another tab: the lawfare content economy. It’s interesting too, because there was nothing in your piece, your original piece, that he could sue you for.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, you’re a journalist, you are protected under free speech laws. But choosing to threaten a completely different, unrelated creator, SeanDaBlack, who has a significantly smaller following than him and presumably much fewer legal resources, also didn’t sit right with a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A lot of online compared this case to a tactic called lawfare. Can you explain what that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So, lawfare refers to a phenomenon where somebody launches a lawsuit, not because the case has an actual legal merit, but because they know it will cause so much harm to the defendant through legal costs and the pressure of being subjected to the legal system. It’s a term that has particularly grown popular due to Donald Trump’s habitual use of lawfare and other conservatives. We’ve seen this with Trump, we’ve seen this with Elon Musk. And we’re increasingly seeing it in the landscape of the internet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ethan Klein is not the first creator to sue his critics and I know that he will not be the last. We’re seeing it more and more and people online are even referring to it as lolfare in this context, like LOL fare, because not only are they seeing it as a way to harass a target through the legal system, but they’re also seeing it as a way for the plaintiff, the person bringing the lawsuit to be able to make content out of it. And oftentimes this content is very tongue-in-cheek because in Ethan Klein’s case, he says that these lawsuits have merit. He has held to that. He continues to say that these lawsuits have merit and that they are not law fair but at the exact same time, he’s also made them such a prominent topic on his podcast and on his live show that he’s reaping a lot of benefit from it, too. And a lot people in his audience and a lot the detractors of these women are really, really enjoying it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And lawfare also fuels an entire genre of YouTube content called LawTube. It started with the defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Lawyers built huge followings online by discussing widely publicized cases. Other content creators, who primarily covered pop culture and influencer drama, jumped in too. They weren’t legal experts, but they also built audiences and made money by covering high-profile cases. Now, whatever lawfare is used against other creators, it feeds this thriving ecosystem of reaction content, which can direct more harassment against victims of lawfare.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How does lawfare destabilize people who, you know, might be comfortable enough, but aren’t wealthy by any means?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong> One of the things that I think a lot of people don’t realize is just how expensive defending yourself legally is. Even if you ultimately win a case, it can still cost people tens of thousands of dollars just to file a motion to dismiss. So most lawyers charge, you know, hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour. So even if you don’t get to trial, you can still be looking at these just like staggering fees that could easily bankrupt the average person. Another aspect I think is just the emotional and mental toll it takes on people. Lawsuits are inherently really, really stressful. It involves so many filings, so much back and forth. And with every filing and every decision that a judge makes, it’s like resetting the clock on whether it’s gonna go your way or whether it won’t. So there are a lot of aspects that make lawfare not only one of the most, I would say, prominent modern harassment strategies but also something that can individually devastate people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>For Denims, this legal battle consumed most of the last year. It really affected her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>It is very stressful because I know that he has more money than me. He knows that he has more money than me. Everyone involved knows that he has significantly more money than me, so it’s like a very stressful process because so much of the legal system is based on how much you can pay for the best lawyers. So I think for a great period of time, I was incredibly stressed about financials or at least decently stressed about financials. But I think I’m just very lucky that I had a lot of people who supported me and I had lot of people who wanted to see me fight and who donated to my GoFundMe. And yeah, that was, I think the thing that was worse than the financial stuff was just like the time and the headache of… like, we could be spending this time productively. We could making content that’s fun, and instead we’re just sitting here talking to lawyers and prepping lawyer content and going to hearings or whatever. Like, it’s just…it was such a time sink. It still is sort of a time-sink.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And something you did say was that you weren’t going to settle. You weren’t gonna back down. What was motivating you through that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I don’t like bullies. I think bullies suck. And it’s sad because once upon a time, Ethan was the person that went after the bullies, I think, and he like defended against the bullys. And then he like, he became that which he sought to destroy. And I’m sorry, like on principle, it seems wrong to just fold over or like roll ove and die on that, like… It’s, okay, so I immediately fold, everyone, all of us settle and we just try to get out of this case as quickly as possible. What social precedent does that set? Not even like a legal precedent, what social precedent does it set that the second someone with more money than you tries to fight, everyone just rolls over and says, okay, well, I’m not gonna fight this. Well, I am not gonna to fight this. Like, it opens the door for him or anyone else to just be able to pursue, like, bullsh*t lawsuits against lots of other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so to recap, Ethan Klein, once hailed as “the fair use king,” took these three women creators to court for reacting to his content. Who won? And how will all of this impact the internet going forward? Let’s go back to Kat and open one more tab: the future of fair use and reaction content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s talk about the outcome of these lawsuits. What happened in each case?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, Kaseytron, her case ended up being withdrawn. We can assume that there was a settlement in play. And the other thing about settlements is that typically they’re negotiated confidentially. So there’s no way to know what actually transpired in those closed-door negotiations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Following the end of that lawsuit, Kasey actually posted a public apology, which Ethan and Hila reacted to on the H3 Podcast stream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast -Show #215]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: We’ll watch it all together, and move on all together. \u003cbr>Hila Klein: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr>Kaseytron: I want to begin by stating I take responsibility for infringing the content nuke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Kaseytron, you know, hers ended earliest and she was able to move on, go back to her normal content and her normal streaming. Frogan is still fighting this lawsuit and she recently announced via a statement that she had hired Denims’ lawyers after her lawyers tried and failed to negotiate with Ethan over more than a year’s time. Her lawsuit temporarily entered like a default stage. But she has said in her statement that she will be moving forward. And then Denims actually won her lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The final ruling came out in July, and Denims was in the perfect place to celebrate her win.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not gonna lie, I happened to be in Vegas at the time and I hadn’t won any money in Vegas. I didn’t spend much, but I hadn’t t won anything. So it felt like I won. It felt like I won. There was something amazing about being in the middle of a casino and I get the news that I just won my case. And I’m like, oh my God, like I hit the jackpot, dude. I was so over the moon. I was so happy because I knew it was like a matter of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so let’s talk about her case. There are four factors that courts use to determine fair use. What is the purpose and character of using the copyrighted work? What is a nature of the copyrighted work? How much of it was used? Did the copyright holder lose money because their work was used?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And the only one that I didn’t win was simply the, I think it’s the second one that says that a work deserves copyright protections. So the judge said, hey, you know what? The content nuke has enough original things in it that it is considered not just a factual piece, but also a creative piece that deserves copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The first factor is the most important in these cases, ‘the purpose and character of using copyrighted work.’ And this is the biggest question in the debate over reaction content. Was this use transformative? In other words, did it add something new? In Denims’ case, the judge found that her reaction stream met three out of four fair use standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And all of the other factors, the judge ruled in my favor on those. So he said, yeah, the purpose and the character of the work is very different. And he proceeded to cite Ethan Klein’s original filing and Ethan Klein’s original statement that said, the purpose of her character is the complete opposite of my character. He also said that the other factors were in my favor that it’s hard to see a market replacement or a market substitution when the work is so different, when there’s so much reaction. But most importantly, he said that the work was transformative and that I did add more than enough substantial commentary, pauses, critiques for it to be considered fair use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And here’s where it gets really interesting. Remember back in 2017, when a judge ruled that Ethan and Hila’s reaction video was, in fact, fair use? That case, this legal precedence that the client set, came up a lot in the ruling for Denims’ case. Here’s Kat again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I have the excerpt of the judge’s decision right in front of me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Please read dramatically. \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So there is one line in particular that says, ‘the undisputed purpose of defendant’s live stream is to contest, criticize, and mock plaintiff’s message, which the courts have found weighs in favor of fair use due to its transformative nature see Hoss versus Klein.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And he kept citing t to say, no, you can use a lot of a work and it’s still fair use. No, you should be able to criticize the people. That’s the heart of fair use, to be able to criticize people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> That original case is actually cited a dozen times in the official judgment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So as soon as this ruling and decision came out, critics of Ethan Klein were just like, ‘this is incredible. This is one of the most incredible turns that this could have taken.’ But it’s also not something people were super surprised by because from the very onset of these lawsuits, people pointed out how, again, hypocritical they found it that Ethan was suing someone over the very same cause of action that he had been sued for less than a decade prior. So them citing his own lawsuit win in his current lawsuit loss really was the cherry on top for people who had been arguing that these lawsuits were meritless the entire time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to filing the lawsuits against these three women, Ethan has also filed more lawsuits against more creators, and as the lawsuits pile up, more and more creators throughout the entire ecosystem have begun to speak out against Ethan Klein. People started to leave Ethan Klein’s fan base. There is like another subreddit that is former fans of Ethan Klein who have spoken out against these lawsuits. There’s been a ton of viral tweets, viral TikToks basically painting him as just this new villain of the YouTube landscape. And not everybody sees it that way, but enough people do that I think it really has changed his reputation for the worse. I think if you’re not an H3 fan and if you barely know who Ethan Klein is, you’re probably gonna know him because of all of these posts that have to do with him being someone who sues his critics and tries to sue them into silence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Some people might argue that everything that went down is just mindless internet drama that, I mean, like TikTok commentators like to constantly claim, it’s not that deep. But why does this matter for everyone? How does this ripple into every part of the internet?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say it really is that deep for a couple of reasons. One, social media and content creation is at the forefront of how we disseminate news and information today. Almost everyone is on social media, and increasingly, a majority of people get their news and information from content creators online. So having the freedom to speak your mind and analyze and, yes, react to other people’s content is really, really important in today’s modern world. And so the threat of lawsuits like this is something that I think could have a really negative effect on democracy, on free speech, and so on and so forth. So I think it really is that deep. And I think if people want to protect our access to information and our ability to have a voice and not be chilled into silence, then they should care about this because it could have major consequences beyond just this streaming community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims, being an Arab-American woman who talks about progressive politics on the internet, has a lot of haters. There are so many people, many of whom are men, who’ve grown their own following by clipping her content and bashing her on their channels. The scrutiny she already faced intensified over the last year because of this very public legal battle. But as annoying as these hate watchers are, Denims pointed out that her victory is also a win for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>The people who enjoy criticizing me, a ruling that was bad for me, would have been bad for them. I think until the filing became official, I think it was internet drama. And I think after the filing, it’s like, dog, this is like, this affects everything on the internet, everything. It impacts what kind of content is allowed on Twitter. It impacts what kind of contact is allowed on Reddit. It impacts the content on YouTube. Like, it impacts so much. And even if you don’t personally care for my content or my commentary or my political views, you should want your favorite content creator to be able to critique the people that they dislike or disagree with. It is important to have people be able speak on the issues they want to speak on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan took to Instagram stories after the ruling came out. He wrote, I’m extremely confident that this will be overturned by the appellate courts and we will be proceeding with the appeal immediately. Close All Tabs reached out to his team for comment, but we have not received a response. Denims, meanwhile, posted her own update.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: Before we start, let me bring in our honored guest. You might have previously known him as “the fair use king. “\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She reaches off camera and pulls a tripod into the frame. On it is a mannequin head with a printed photo of Ethan Klein taped over it. It’s wearing a gold costume crown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: And let me just…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She plucks off the crown and places it on her own head.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: There we go. Much better.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, I think everybody called him “the fair use king” for such a long time. And I think the second you start suing other creators for doing the same thing that you got really big and popular for, I think you should lose the rights to that crown, the social rights to that crown. And I think you should give it to the person who’s actually trying to defend fair use. Because it’s not just fair use when it’s the people that you like. It’s not freedom of speech when it’s people saying things you like. It’s—it should also apply when people aren’t saying things that you like, when people are saying things that you dislike. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and if it’s too heavy for you, I will gladly take it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and edited by Chris Hambrick. Additional production support from Ana de Almeida Amaral. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, our intern Lauren Yoon, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. This episode features clips and archive tape from H3H3 Productions, the H3 Podcast, Leftovers, Kaseytron, Frogan, SeanDaBlack, and Denims. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I will be continuing to fight. Ethan said he will be taking this to appeals. So I guess maybe in 18 months or whatever, when I win that, then I can give more updates then.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/kattenbarge?s=20\">Kat Tenbarge\u003c/a>, independent journalist, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"A Political Reckoning for Twitch? | KQED — Close All Tabs, KQED",
"Ethan Klein’s War on Women — Kat Tenbarge, Spitfire News",
"Ethan Klein Doesn’t Deserve My Apology — Kat Tenbarge, Spitfire News",
"A YouTuber kicks up a stink over a flatulent “reaction” video — staff, The Economist",
"What’s Up With Copyright Lately?: Summer Breeze Edition — Aaron Moss, Copyright Lately",
"Should YouTube introduce revenue-sharing for reaction content? — James Hale, Tubefilter",
"‘Reactgate’: Twitch streamer xQc and ‘H3 Podcast’ host Ethan Klein debate whether ‘reaction videos’ are ‘stolen content’ — Katie Mather, Yahoo News",
"How h3h3’s Ethan Klein Might Change YouTube Forever — Melissa Chan, Time Magazine"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-lawsuits-kaceytron-frogan-denims\">Ethan Klein’s War on Women\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-seandablack-lawsuits-kaceytron-denims-frogan-taylor-lorenz\">Ethan Klein Doesn’t Deserve My Apology\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Tabbies. We need your help. If you like our deep dives and you want to hear more, then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Tabbies. We need your help. If you like our deep dives and you want to hear more, then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video] \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hi there. It’s me, your old friend, Ethan Klein. It’s been a while since we’ve last spoken. In that time I’ve had three kids, all boys, I’ve lost a hundred pounds, and I’ve pissed off 75% of the in-\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video] \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hi there. It’s me, your old friend, Ethan Klein. It’s been a while since we’ve last spoken. In that time I’ve had three kids, all boys, I’ve lost a hundred pounds, and I’ve pissed off 75% of the in-\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And I became insane.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And I became insane.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That second voice you just heard is Alexandra Saber, a Twitch streamer better known as…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Everyone I know calls me Denims, so…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna keep calling her Denims for this episode. She’s been on the show before, when we talked about the growing corner of political commentary on Twitch. The situation we’re diving into today is related to that. So last year, Ethan Klein, the YouTuber behind the channel H3H3 Productions and host of the H3 Podcast, dropped a content nuke. This is a long-form video format that Ethan himself popularized. It’s basically an extensive takedown criticizing another creator for their behavior, comments, and past posts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna keep calling her Denims for this episode. She’s been on the show before, when we talked about the growing corner of political commentary on Twitch. The situation we’re diving into today is related to that. So last year, Ethan Klein, the YouTuber behind the channel H3H3 Productions and host of the H3 Podcast, dropped a content nuke. This is a long-form video format that Ethan himself popularized. It’s basically an extensive takedown criticizing another creator for their behavior, comments, and past posts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The content nuke is like a deep dive, building the case to cancel someone else. Ethan had been teasing this video for months, so his fan base was pretty hyped. And this one was about someone he had been publicly feuding with for years: streamer, political commentator, and his former friend, Hasan Piker. Ethan’s nearly 2-hour-long video starts with J. Robert Oppenheimer quoting Hindu scripture, which he famously referenced after he watched the detonation of the nuclear bomb he designed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The content nuke is like a deep dive, building the case to cancel someone else. Ethan had been teasing this video for months, so his fan base was pretty hyped. And this one was about someone he had been publicly feuding with for years: streamer, political commentator, and his former friend, Hasan Piker. Ethan’s nearly 2-hour-long video starts with J. Robert Oppenheimer quoting Hindu scripture, which he famously referenced after he watched the detonation of the nuclear bomb he designed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[ Audio of J. Robert Oppenheimer]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[ Audio of J. Robert Oppenheimer]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then the video launches into a super cut of clips from Hasan’s stream, layered with footage of a nuclear bomb after impact, mushroom cloud and all. Denims wasn’t impressed, so she streamed her reaction, which did involve playing the video on her channel.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then the video launches into a super cut of clips from Hasan’s stream, layered with footage of a nuclear bomb after impact, mushroom cloud and all. Denims wasn’t impressed, so she streamed her reaction, which did involve playing the video on her channel.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of wild claims that were made in that video that were just factually untrue. And so I would pause, I would make jokes or I’d pause and I would say, well, this isn’t true. Like, here’s this and this and this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of wild claims that were made in that video that were just factually untrue. And so I would pause, I would make jokes or I’d pause and I would say, well, this isn’t true. Like, here’s this and this and this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims’ reaction Twitch stream]\u003cbr>Speaker: That lines up with leftist values.\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hasan’s third claim is—\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[clicking sound]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: Okay, first of all, they he’s not even providing sources for half of this stuff. I… He’s provided like bits and segments, if any. Okay?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims’ reaction Twitch stream]\u003cbr>Speaker: That lines up with leftist values.\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hasan’s third claim is—\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[clicking sound]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: Okay, first of all, they he’s not even providing sources for half of this stuff. I… He’s provided like bits and segments, if any. Okay?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I think people just like myself, when I’m curious about a video, but I know that it’s going to be filled with falsehoods, I want to watch an expert talk about it and break down what’s wrong with that video, sort of like watching in a weird way, I guess, like Mythbusters. And I think that’s why a lot of people tuned into my stream to watch that the two hour video turned into a four hour livestream, cause I wanted to see someone say, no, this isn’t true. Here’s this article that shows this isn’t true.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I think people just like myself, when I’m curious about a video, but I know that it’s going to be filled with falsehoods, I want to watch an expert talk about it and break down what’s wrong with that video, sort of like watching in a weird way, I guess, like Mythbusters. And I think that’s why a lot of people tuned into my stream to watch that the two hour video turned into a four hour livestream, cause I wanted to see someone say, no, this isn’t true. Here’s this article that shows this isn’t true.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, months later, she found herself at the center of one of the most talked about lawsuits in the content creator world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, months later, she found herself at the center of one of the most talked about lawsuits in the content creator world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I do remember that I found out the exact same way that everyone else found out. So he released this video on like June, was it, I think it was 19th.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I do remember that I found out the exact same way that everyone else found out. So he released this video on like June, was it, I think it was 19th.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: Hi there. My name is Ethan Klein, and my favorite hobby is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. Today, I invite you into my home to share my favorite past time with you. Join me in creating generational wealth for my attorney.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: Hi there. My name is Ethan Klein, and my favorite hobby is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. Today, I invite you into my home to share my favorite past time with you. Join me in creating generational wealth for my attorney.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>This is a video, another video that he had been teasing for a while and I was kind of curious what it was gonna be about. I was like, is it gonna be a sequel to the original? Is it gonna be a video on some other creators? And so I’m like watching this video, I’m, like, hmm, that’s me on the screen. That is an official court document with my name on it. And then I click and it’s like, it’s almost a little bit disbelief that it’s real.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>This is a video, another video that he had been teasing for a while and I was kind of curious what it was gonna be about. I was like, is it gonna be a sequel to the original? Is it gonna be a video on some other creators? And so I’m like watching this video, I’m, like, hmm, that’s me on the screen. That is an official court document with my name on it. And then I click and it’s like, it’s almost a little bit disbelief that it’s real.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Well, I’m happy to tell you guys now, I, Ethan Klein, have registered Hasan Piker content nuke with the United States Library of Congress. Some of you guys out there sweating?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Well, I’m happy to tell you guys now, I, Ethan Klein, have registered Hasan Piker content nuke with the United States Library of Congress. Some of you guys out there sweating?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims’ stream falls under this genre known as reaction content, videos and live streams in which creators react to and comment on content made by others. You’ll see this on Twitch and TikTok and YouTube and Reels. They’ll play a short clip from a movie or political speech or someone else’s video, and then give their take. Reaction content relies on this legal doctrine called fair use. Fair use is what protects the unlicensed use of copyrighted material if it’s used in news reporting, criticism, teaching, research, and commentary. And fair use is fundamental to the internet as we know it, because it protects freedom of expression. But there are, of course, limits. Which is why, at first, Denims was worried she had stepped into actual copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims’ stream falls under this genre known as reaction content, videos and live streams in which creators react to and comment on content made by others. You’ll see this on Twitch and TikTok and YouTube and Reels. They’ll play a short clip from a movie or political speech or someone else’s video, and then give their take. Reaction content relies on this legal doctrine called fair use. Fair use is what protects the unlicensed use of copyrighted material if it’s used in news reporting, criticism, teaching, research, and commentary. And fair use is fundamental to the internet as we know it, because it protects freedom of expression. But there are, of course, limits. Which is why, at first, Denims was worried she had stepped into actual copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I go back, I watch my original video, I watched my original, like, reaction, and then I felt a lot better. I was like, okay, wait, wait…I took a 2 hour video, I turned it into 4 hours. I had a bunch of links where I showed people articles. I showed people a bunch context for things. I commented a bunch, and I really tried to transform the video and transform the content to the best of my ability.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I go back, I watch my original video, I watched my original, like, reaction, and then I felt a lot better. I was like, okay, wait, wait…I took a 2 hour video, I turned it into 4 hours. I had a bunch of links where I showed people articles. I showed people a bunch context for things. I commented a bunch, and I really tried to transform the video and transform the content to the best of my ability.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Here’s the ironic twist. The doctrine of fair use that protects content creators like Denims’? Ethan himself set the precedent when it comes to internet content by winning a different lawsuit nearly 10 years ago. In fact, for a long time, he was known as the “the fair use king.” It’s a big reason why Denims was so shocked.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Here’s the ironic twist. The doctrine of fair use that protects content creators like Denims’? Ethan himself set the precedent when it comes to internet content by winning a different lawsuit nearly 10 years ago. In fact, for a long time, he was known as the “the fair use king.” It’s a big reason why Denims was so shocked.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Like, the guy who’s known as the “the fair use king” is going to sue me and other creators for reacting to his video. Huh?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Like, the guy who’s known as the “the fair use king” is going to sue me and other creators for reacting to his video. Huh?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims is not the only streamer Ethan went after, but the three creators he sued were also among dozens of others who made similar videos, all using the original content nuke. And as critics have pointed out, there’s a pattern among the creators that Ethan did choose to single out. So how did Ethan Klein, once the “the fair use king” and champion of free speech, become the kind of litigious antagonist that he once defeated?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims is not the only streamer Ethan went after, but the three creators he sued were also among dozens of others who made similar videos, all using the original content nuke. And as critics have pointed out, there’s a pattern among the creators that Ethan did choose to single out. So how did Ethan Klein, once the “the fair use king” and champion of free speech, become the kind of litigious antagonist that he once defeated?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, we’re diving into why this case is more than just a feud between influencers. It has ripple effects that would impact nearly every platform and every piece of content that you engage with online. There’s so much to unpack here. Censorship, power dynamics, and years of personal beef. It is so much bigger than just internet drama. Buckle up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today, we’re diving into why this case is more than just a feud between influencers. It has ripple effects that would impact nearly every platform and every piece of content that you engage with online. There’s so much to unpack here. Censorship, power dynamics, and years of personal beef. It is so much bigger than just internet drama. Buckle up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s open our first tab. Why did Ethan Klein sue other streamers? Today we’re here to talk about a series of lawsuits that kind of rocked the content creator economy. At their very core, what are these three lawsuits about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s open our first tab. Why did Ethan Klein sue other streamers? Today we’re here to talk about a series of lawsuits that kind of rocked the content creator economy. At their very core, what are these three lawsuits about?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So these three lawsuits are about copyright infringement and specifically whether it is a copyright infringment violation to stream and react to another creator’s content on your own platform.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So these three lawsuits are about copyright infringement and specifically whether it is a copyright infringment violation to stream and react to another creator’s content on your own platform.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Kat Tenbarge has also been on Close All Taps before. She’s an independent journalist who runs the newsletter Spitfire News, and she covers the intersection of influencers and politics. She also covered this case, and in doing so, unwillingly became part of the story herself. We’ll get into that part later in the episode, but let’s talk about everything leading up to these lawsuits first.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Kat Tenbarge has also been on Close All Taps before. She’s an independent journalist who runs the newsletter Spitfire News, and she covers the intersection of influencers and politics. She also covered this case, and in doing so, unwillingly became part of the story herself. We’ll get into that part later in the episode, but let’s talk about everything leading up to these lawsuits first.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In this case, three Twitch streamers each played a YouTuber’s video on their live stream and reacted to it. And then he sued them for copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In this case, three Twitch streamers each played a YouTuber’s video on their live stream and reacted to it. And then he sued them for copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m really curious, like, who watches this content? What is the impact culturally online?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m really curious, like, who watches this content? What is the impact culturally online?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, so, so many people watch this type of content. I see it in so many different places, and I imagine that a lot of audience members don’t even register it as reaction content because it’s become so ubiquitous. But even like, the biggest news and politics creators, a lot what they do is reaction content. If you are watching somebody do like a stitch on TikTok or Instagram Reels, that’s a form of reaction content, or if you ever go on Twitch, that is reaction content for the most part, because even when someone is playing a video game, they’re still taking someone else’s intellectual property and sort of making it their own. Like, reaction content is basically one of the building blocks of most content today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, so, so many people watch this type of content. I see it in so many different places, and I imagine that a lot of audience members don’t even register it as reaction content because it’s become so ubiquitous. But even like, the biggest news and politics creators, a lot what they do is reaction content. If you are watching somebody do like a stitch on TikTok or Instagram Reels, that’s a form of reaction content, or if you ever go on Twitch, that is reaction content for the most part, because even when someone is playing a video game, they’re still taking someone else’s intellectual property and sort of making it their own. Like, reaction content is basically one of the building blocks of most content today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, what was your first reaction, speaking of reaction content, but what was the first reaction when you saw the news of Ethan Klein’s recent lawsuits?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, what was your first reaction, speaking of reaction content, but what was the first reaction when you saw the news of Ethan Klein’s recent lawsuits?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, my first reaction, I was pretty surprised because I think a lot of people online saw this as a very hypocritical move. Back in 2017, Ethan Klein was sued himself by another content creator for the exact same reason, copyright infringement, after he reacted to and parodied and mocked a different YouTuber’s material. And that lawsuit was a really defining point in Ethan Klein’s own career. So, you know, fast forward less than a decade later, he’s basically doing the exact same thing to these three women.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, my first reaction, I was pretty surprised because I think a lot of people online saw this as a very hypocritical move. Back in 2017, Ethan Klein was sued himself by another content creator for the exact same reason, copyright infringement, after he reacted to and parodied and mocked a different YouTuber’s material. And that lawsuit was a really defining point in Ethan Klein’s own career. So, you know, fast forward less than a decade later, he’s basically doing the exact same thing to these three women.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2016. This YouTuber, Matt Hoss, had this comedy series called The Bold Guy. In these sketches, Matt plays this pick-up artist who also does parkour. It has not aged well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2016. This YouTuber, Matt Hoss, had this comedy series called The Bold Guy. In these sketches, Matt plays this pick-up artist who also does parkour. It has not aged well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Matt Hoss’ The Bold Guy Video]\u003cbr>Woman: Who are you calling an attention whore? \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: I’m asking, because you keep sticking your ass up in the air. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Woman: I have the right to exercise here if I want. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: Of course you do, and I have a right to approach and talk to you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Matt Hoss’ The Bold Guy Video]\u003cbr>Woman: Who are you calling an attention whore? \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: I’m asking, because you keep sticking your ass up in the air. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Woman: I have the right to exercise here if I want. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: Of course you do, and I have a right to approach and talk to you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In this video, the woman slaps Matt and then tells him to catch her. A parkour chase ensues. Ethan and his wife, Hila, saw this and posted their own video where they played clips and made fun of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In this video, the woman slaps Matt and then tells him to catch her. A parkour chase ensues. Ethan and his wife, Hila, saw this and posted their own video where they played clips and made fun of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Look, can you imagine the casting call for this? Looking for a cute, petite, parkour girl to star in my parkour sex video.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Look, can you imagine the casting call for this? Looking for a cute, petite, parkour girl to star in my parkour sex video.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan and Hila’s video was 14 minutes long. It used three minutes of Matt’s original video. Well, Matt didn’t like that. So he filed a copyright notice with YouTube and YouTube took down Ethan and Hila’s video. Ethan and Hila challenged the takedown and argued fair use. So in 2017, Matt sued them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan and Hila’s video was 14 minutes long. It used three minutes of Matt’s original video. Well, Matt didn’t like that. So he filed a copyright notice with YouTube and YouTube took down Ethan and Hila’s video. Ethan and Hila challenged the takedown and argued fair use. So in 2017, Matt sued them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when this lawsuit was launched against them, they issued a plea to the YouTube community at large basically pointing out that if they lost, it would set a really bad precedent for everybody because it would mean that everybody could potentially be sued over the type of content that had already become so popular, so mainstream, and so ubiquitous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when this lawsuit was launched against them, they issued a plea to the YouTube community at large basically pointing out that if they lost, it would set a really bad precedent for everybody because it would mean that everybody could potentially be sued over the type of content that had already become so popular, so mainstream, and so ubiquitous.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: After a year and a half of doing depositions, filing summaries, motions, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, we slammed this b*tch, dude! YES! We won the court case! YES!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: After a year and a half of doing depositions, filing summaries, motions, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, we slammed this b*tch, dude! YES! We won the court case! YES!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when they won that case, it felt like they had established this precedent that wouldn’t just protect them, but would also protect all of these other creators.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when they won that case, it felt like they had established this precedent that wouldn’t just protect them, but would also protect all of these other creators.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, how did this pretty landmark decision that, like you said, set that precedent, open the door for the explosion of commentary content and reaction videos and media criticism video essays?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, how did this pretty landmark decision that, like you said, set that precedent, open the door for the explosion of commentary content and reaction videos and media criticism video essays?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the the precedent that was set by Ethan and Hila winning this lawsuit was that it fell under the category of fair use as long as you were putting your own commentary spin on whatever you were reacting to. So for example, you can’t just stream someone else’s content on your channel and walk away and let it play for the entirety of the clip, but as long you’re engaging with it in some way, shape, or form, that is what the judge determined allowed it to fall under fair use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the the precedent that was set by Ethan and Hila winning this lawsuit was that it fell under the category of fair use as long as you were putting your own commentary spin on whatever you were reacting to. So for example, you can’t just stream someone else’s content on your channel and walk away and let it play for the entirety of the clip, but as long you’re engaging with it in some way, shape, or form, that is what the judge determined allowed it to fall under fair use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so there’s that legal precedent, but it seems like Ethan’s stance on this issue is like dramatically different. Can you briefly catch us up on how Ethan, his content, and his audience have changed since winning that 2017 lawsuit?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so there’s that legal precedent, but it seems like Ethan’s stance on this issue is like dramatically different. Can you briefly catch us up on how Ethan, his content, and his audience have changed since winning that 2017 lawsuit?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So since 2017, Ethan and Hila have really leaned into podcasting as like the main content that they make and the way they engage with their audience. And this drama stems from a podcast that Ethan had done previously with Hasan Piker called Leftovers. Leftovers ran for a few years and it was both of them talking about politics from this like leftist perspective.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So since 2017, Ethan and Hila have really leaned into podcasting as like the main content that they make and the way they engage with their audience. And this drama stems from a podcast that Ethan had done previously with Hasan Piker called Leftovers. Leftovers ran for a few years and it was both of them talking about politics from this like leftist perspective.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Leftovers #31]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: I mean, Trump took a fat f*cking L, dude. Yeah. And you’re seeing it already, we have a whole section in here of Republicans turning on Trump.\u003cbr>Hasan Piker: Here’s the issue. This is not a Donald Trump issue. This is a Republican party issue. Here’s why…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Leftovers #31]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: I mean, Trump took a fat f*cking L, dude. Yeah. And you’re seeing it already, we have a whole section in here of Republicans turning on Trump.\u003cbr>Hasan Piker: Here’s the issue. This is not a Donald Trump issue. This is a Republican party issue. Here’s why…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’ve talked about Hasan on this show a bunch. He’s the guy who turned political commentary streams into a viable genre on Twitch. Leftovers was this collaboration between the superstar of a burgeoning corner of Twitch and the YouTube “fair use king.” They joked around, made fun of Trump supporters, interviewed economists, and reacted to what was happening in politics at the time. And they genuinely did seem like friends, but ultimately, it didn’t last.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’ve talked about Hasan on this show a bunch. He’s the guy who turned political commentary streams into a viable genre on Twitch. Leftovers was this collaboration between the superstar of a burgeoning corner of Twitch and the YouTube “fair use king.” They joked around, made fun of Trump supporters, interviewed economists, and reacted to what was happening in politics at the time. And they genuinely did seem like friends, but ultimately, it didn’t last.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In late 2023, after Hamas attacked Israel, things really shifted between the two of them because Hasan Piker is really principled in his advocacy for Palestinians and his opposition to Israel, whereas Ethan Klein actually lived in Israel for a period of time, his wife Hila served in the IDF and is Israeli, and his perspective on the matter is very different. The two of them have kind of gone in between both sides of this, but the perception, at least widely online, is that they’re much more pro-Israeli than Hasan is. And so this drove a wedge between these content creators that has just grown and grown and grown and grown. There has been a ton of back and forth drama between the two of them, allegations slung in both directions. And it all kind of led up to Ethan creating something that he described as a content nuke.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In late 2023, after Hamas attacked Israel, things really shifted between the two of them because Hasan Piker is really principled in his advocacy for Palestinians and his opposition to Israel, whereas Ethan Klein actually lived in Israel for a period of time, his wife Hila served in the IDF and is Israeli, and his perspective on the matter is very different. The two of them have kind of gone in between both sides of this, but the perception, at least widely online, is that they’re much more pro-Israeli than Hasan is. And so this drove a wedge between these content creators that has just grown and grown and grown and grown. There has been a ton of back and forth drama between the two of them, allegations slung in both directions. And it all kind of led up to Ethan creating something that he described as a content nuke.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Content Nuke Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: The funny thing about me, I don’t like terrorism, and I don’t like terrorists. If they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, they’re all bad. And over time I started to learn that my co-host, he really likes terrorists.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Content Nuke Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: The funny thing about me, I don’t like terrorism, and I don’t like terrorists. If they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, they’re all bad. And over time I started to learn that my co-host, he really likes terrorists.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>It was a nearly two hour long video criticizing and sort of condemning Hasan Piker. And when Ethan made this video, it obviously set off sort of a bomb in the discourse space where a bunch of different Twitch streamers, people who loved Hasan, people who hated Hasan people who were friends with Hasan, people who were sort of like associates or orbiters of Hasan they were all reacting to it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>It was a nearly two hour long video criticizing and sort of condemning Hasan Piker. And when Ethan made this video, it obviously set off sort of a bomb in the discourse space where a bunch of different Twitch streamers, people who loved Hasan, people who hated Hasan people who were friends with Hasan, people who were sort of like associates or orbiters of Hasan they were all reacting to it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In the later video where he announced the lawsuits, Ethan called the content nuke a trap.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In the later video where he announced the lawsuits, Ethan called the content nuke a trap.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: It’s not that I wanted these people to steal my video. It’s that I knew they would. The trap was set and it worked even better than I imagined it would. We captured pretty much every large streamer reacting to it in its entirety immediately after it was published.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: It’s not that I wanted these people to steal my video. It’s that I knew they would. The trap was set and it worked even better than I imagined it would. We captured pretty much every large streamer reacting to it in its entirety immediately after it was published.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan sued three women for using his content nuke in their reaction streams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan sued three women for using his content nuke in their reaction streams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Each of them played it while they were Twitch streaming and each of them offered their own commentary throughout the video. But the argument that Ethan made in his lawsuits is that they didn’t offer enough commentary for it to fall under fair use. And one of the things that he claimed they had done is that, they had basically established their intent to divert views from his channel so that he would reap fewer profits, which he viewed as a violation of his copyright.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Each of them played it while they were Twitch streaming and each of them offered their own commentary throughout the video. But the argument that Ethan made in his lawsuits is that they didn’t offer enough commentary for it to fall under fair use. And one of the things that he claimed they had done is that, they had basically established their intent to divert views from his channel so that he would reap fewer profits, which he viewed as a violation of his copyright.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Ethan himself said, many major streamers and YouTubers reacted to the content nuke. But he only went after three of them. All of them are women, and they also share a lot of political stances. Why did Ethan single them out? We’ll talk about that after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Ethan himself said, many major streamers and YouTubers reacted to the content nuke. But he only went after three of them. All of them are women, and they also share a lot of political stances. Why did Ethan single them out? We’ll talk about that after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OK. More on the content nuke, the lawsuits, and a tricky intimidation tactic called lawfare. That’s after this break. Stick around!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>OK. More on the content nuke, the lawsuits, and a tricky intimidation tactic called lawfare. That’s after this break. Stick around!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Who did Ethan Klein sue? And why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Who did Ethan Klein sue? And why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, Hasan is mentioned throughout these lawsuits pretty extensively,.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, Hasan is mentioned throughout these lawsuits pretty extensively,.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But he himself is not a defendant in any of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But he himself is not a defendant in any of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about the three women who are. Who are these creators? What is their content like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about the three women who are. Who are these creators? What is their content like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, so the three women who Ethan Klein sued are Kaceytron, Denims, and Frogan. And obviously those aren’t their real names. Those are the names that they go by on Twitch. But Kaceytron, I would say out of the three, had the least to do with the drama between Ethan and Hasan. She’s a longtime Twitch streamer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, so the three women who Ethan Klein sued are Kaceytron, Denims, and Frogan. And obviously those aren’t their real names. Those are the names that they go by on Twitch. But Kaceytron, I would say out of the three, had the least to do with the drama between Ethan and Hasan. She’s a longtime Twitch streamer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Kaceytron reaction video]\u003cbr>Kaceytron: I know a lot of people have been wanting to watch this without necessarily supporting Ethan Klein, so we’re gonna watch it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Kaceytron reaction video]\u003cbr>Kaceytron: I know a lot of people have been wanting to watch this without necessarily supporting Ethan Klein, so we’re gonna watch it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>She’s known for having an audience of sort of like the girls and the gays, and she does a lot of satirical, really kind of like, purposefully like tongue-in-cheek content that sometimes touches on politics. So she was one of the defendants who Ethan sued, and she also is known for having a pretty modest background. She grew up in what she and her family describes as generational poverty. And once this lawsuit was officially filed and she got served, she talked about how depressed she was and how much this was pushing her and sort of her family members to the very edge. So that was Kaceytron’s story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>She’s known for having an audience of sort of like the girls and the gays, and she does a lot of satirical, really kind of like, purposefully like tongue-in-cheek content that sometimes touches on politics. So she was one of the defendants who Ethan sued, and she also is known for having a pretty modest background. She grew up in what she and her family describes as generational poverty. And once this lawsuit was officially filed and she got served, she talked about how depressed she was and how much this was pushing her and sort of her family members to the very edge. So that was Kaceytron’s story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Denims and Frogan are two women of color who are also Twitch streamers. Denims has a bigger platform than Frogan. Frogan has worked very closely with Hasan Piker in the past, and both of them had sort of come under attack from Ethan and the H3 fandom previously because they had this sort of closer relationship with Hasan Piker. And I would say both of them also, as women of color, and Frogan in particular, as a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, also previously had received a ton of consistent, almost nonstop racist harassment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Denims and Frogan are two women of color who are also Twitch streamers. Denims has a bigger platform than Frogan. Frogan has worked very closely with Hasan Piker in the past, and both of them had sort of come under attack from Ethan and the H3 fandom previously because they had this sort of closer relationship with Hasan Piker. And I would say both of them also, as women of color, and Frogan in particular, as a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, also previously had received a ton of consistent, almost nonstop racist harassment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Frogan Twitch video]\u003cbr>Frogan: I do appreciate everyone’s support, and thank you for watching it with me. He doesn’t want people to know when it’s dropping because we’re all watching through other streamers. And I suggest you all watch it through other people as well.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Frogan Twitch video]\u003cbr>Frogan: I do appreciate everyone’s support, and thank you for watching it with me. He doesn’t want people to know when it’s dropping because we’re all watching through other streamers. And I suggest you all watch it through other people as well.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>These lawsuits became a vector for that harassment, where it was just another reason for creators to make almost daily content about these women, smearing them, attacking them, even going so far as harassing them in some cases.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>These lawsuits became a vector for that harassment, where it was just another reason for creators to make almost daily content about these women, smearing them, attacking them, even going so far as harassing them in some cases.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And it’s also worth noting that two of these women already had histories with Ethan Klein. Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And it’s also worth noting that two of these women already had histories with Ethan Klein. Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So as sort of the Hamas-Israel war becomes this wedge issue driving Hasan Piker and Ethan Klein apart, you also saw Ethan really go on the attack against creators who were really supportive of Palestinians and Palestine. And one of the ways he did this is he would identify things that these creators had done as anti-Semitic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So as sort of the Hamas-Israel war becomes this wedge issue driving Hasan Piker and Ethan Klein apart, you also saw Ethan really go on the attack against creators who were really supportive of Palestinians and Palestine. And one of the ways he did this is he would identify things that these creators had done as anti-Semitic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A few years ago, Frogan and Denims were part of a TwitchCon panel for Arab creators, and they jokingly created a ranking of people who can say habibi. Here’s Denims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A few years ago, Frogan and Denims were part of a TwitchCon panel for Arab creators, and they jokingly created a ranking of people who can say habibi. Here’s Denims.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And for some context, habibi just means my love. So like, obviously anyone can say it. It’s kind of like saying inshallah, like anyone can say that. And at the bottom of the tier list was a category called “loves sabra.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And for some context, habibi just means my love. So like, obviously anyone can say it. It’s kind of like saying inshallah, like anyone can say that. And at the bottom of the tier list was a category called “loves sabra.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Based on the hummus brand Sabra.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Based on the hummus brand Sabra.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Which they were making fun of as like the worst hummus that you can buy at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Which they were making fun of as like the worst hummus that you can buy at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>A hummus that most people dislike because it tastes not good. And we put a variety of creators on the bottom tier list, myself included in that category because it was just a fun tier list but we also had put Ethan Klein in that list.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>A hummus that most people dislike because it tastes not good. And we put a variety of creators on the bottom tier list, myself included in that category because it was just a fun tier list but we also had put Ethan Klein in that list.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Ethan had sort of characterized this as anti-Semitic because it’s an Israeli hummus brand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Ethan had sort of characterized this as anti-Semitic because it’s an Israeli hummus brand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Me and the other four creators, got banned from Twitch for 30 days and lost ad rev. So this has been like a long standing chain of events that’s gone on for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Me and the other four creators, got banned from Twitch for 30 days and lost ad rev. So this has been like a long standing chain of events that’s gone on for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But Ethan has also had beef with other creators who reacted to his content nuke. A couple of years ago, there was “Reactgate.” It was this huge internet wide debate over the way certain reaction creators used other people’s content without adding any real commentary or original substance. Amid the discourse, Ethan accused another Twitch streamer, xQc, of being a content thief. The feud culminated in a very heated live streamed argument between the two.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But Ethan has also had beef with other creators who reacted to his content nuke. A couple of years ago, there was “Reactgate.” It was this huge internet wide debate over the way certain reaction creators used other people’s content without adding any real commentary or original substance. Amid the discourse, Ethan accused another Twitch streamer, xQc, of being a content thief. The feud culminated in a very heated live streamed argument between the two.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Debating xQc On Copyright-H3TV #86]\u003cbr>xQc: People would rather watch me full-screen cam, do the f*cking worm than watch your prime content. \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Bro, do it for a week. Do a week of no reaction content and see how many f*cking views you get.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Debating xQc On Copyright-H3TV #86]\u003cbr>xQc: People would rather watch me full-screen cam, do the f*cking worm than watch your prime content. \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Bro, do it for a week. Do a week of no reaction content and see how many f*cking views you get.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>xQc was one of the many creators who reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. But despite their previous feud over this exact issue, Ethan did not sue xQc. In the video announcing the lawsuits, Ethan said,\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>xQc was one of the many creators who reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. But despite their previous feud over this exact issue, Ethan did not sue xQc. In the video announcing the lawsuits, Ethan said,\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: These people were not targeted based on their gender, their identity, their political beliefs.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: These people were not targeted based on their gender, their identity, their political beliefs.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it is worth noting that they all orbit Hasan Piker. They’re smaller creators with similar views who make similar content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it is worth noting that they all orbit Hasan Piker. They’re smaller creators with similar views who make similar content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So they do share a lot of the same audience. There’s a lot crossover there. And even on a personal level, a lot these creators are friends with each other. They have sort of like collaborations or partnerships in the past. And so they almost sort of orbit around the ecosystem that Hasan has created.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So they do share a lot of the same audience. There’s a lot crossover there. And even on a personal level, a lot these creators are friends with each other. They have sort of like collaborations or partnerships in the past. And so they almost sort of orbit around the ecosystem that Hasan has created.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It almost seems like these lawsuits were part of a kind of proxy war with Hasan Piker.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It almost seems like these lawsuits were part of a kind of proxy war with Hasan Piker.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, that is definitely how a lot of people online saw the situation. You saw a lot the same critics of Hasan pivot to support and endorse these lawsuits. And you also saw people in the H3 fandom sort of use this as part of their digital online war on Hasan and his associates, like these women who were being sued were almost treated as stand-ins for Hasan Piker himself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, that is definitely how a lot of people online saw the situation. You saw a lot the same critics of Hasan pivot to support and endorse these lawsuits. And you also saw people in the H3 fandom sort of use this as part of their digital online war on Hasan and his associates, like these women who were being sued were almost treated as stand-ins for Hasan Piker himself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Besides the fact that they all kind of orbit Hasan Piker, are there any theories as to why Ethan would choose to target these specific creators?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Besides the fact that they all kind of orbit Hasan Piker, are there any theories as to why Ethan would choose to target these specific creators?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I think that like among critics of Ethan Klein, a lot of the consensus around these lawsuits is that these were more vulnerable targets. Being women in the creator space and especially women of color, your earning potential and the size of your audience tends to be smaller. In Kaseytron’s case, like we previously discussed, she expressed that she could not afford a lawsuit, that hiring a legal defense would be a significant cost that she wouldn’t be able to shoulder. Each of these women launched a GoFundMe shortly after they were sued. And each of them talked about sort of the undue financial stress that this put upon them, as compared to some of these bigger content creators like Hasan Piker, who would more easily be able to afford a legal defense because he’s making exponentially more money on the platform than these women were.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I think that like among critics of Ethan Klein, a lot of the consensus around these lawsuits is that these were more vulnerable targets. Being women in the creator space and especially women of color, your earning potential and the size of your audience tends to be smaller. In Kaseytron’s case, like we previously discussed, she expressed that she could not afford a lawsuit, that hiring a legal defense would be a significant cost that she wouldn’t be able to shoulder. Each of these women launched a GoFundMe shortly after they were sued. And each of them talked about sort of the undue financial stress that this put upon them, as compared to some of these bigger content creators like Hasan Piker, who would more easily be able to afford a legal defense because he’s making exponentially more money on the platform than these women were.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So all of this is going down online. And last summer, you wrote a piece titled, “Ethan Klein’s War on Women.” What was that essay about, and how was it received?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So all of this is going down online. And last summer, you wrote a piece titled, “Ethan Klein’s War on Women.” What was that essay about, and how was it received?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So I wrote this piece as sort of an explainer because there wasn’t a ton of mainstream media coverage of these cases. There’s been mainstream coverage of Ethan Klein in the past, but despite how big these YouTubers are and how consequential their platforms can be, the mainstream media still doesn’t really understand them or I think appreciate how consequential they are. So I wrote this for my independent newsletter And the basic thrust of my piece is that these three women were each super, super vulnerable in their own way and that because of all of the harassment they were already receiving on a regular basis this was a moment where they were about to receive a lot more and how unfair i felt like that was and it fit in really well with the coverage that I already do because a lot of the topics that I cover are how these types of lawsuits can be used to smear and silence women. For example, I’ve covered Depp v. Heard and Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni and I’ve talked a lot about how these lawsuits and lawfare in general can be used as sort of targeted harassment against women in a really harmful and oftentimes devastating way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So I wrote this piece as sort of an explainer because there wasn’t a ton of mainstream media coverage of these cases. There’s been mainstream coverage of Ethan Klein in the past, but despite how big these YouTubers are and how consequential their platforms can be, the mainstream media still doesn’t really understand them or I think appreciate how consequential they are. So I wrote this for my independent newsletter And the basic thrust of my piece is that these three women were each super, super vulnerable in their own way and that because of all of the harassment they were already receiving on a regular basis this was a moment where they were about to receive a lot more and how unfair i felt like that was and it fit in really well with the coverage that I already do because a lot of the topics that I cover are how these types of lawsuits can be used to smear and silence women. For example, I’ve covered Depp v. Heard and Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni and I’ve talked a lot about how these lawsuits and lawfare in general can be used as sort of targeted harassment against women in a really harmful and oftentimes devastating way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s very interesting the way that Ethan Klein himself reacted to the piece. What did he say?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s very interesting the way that Ethan Klein himself reacted to the piece. What did he say?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>He basically accused me of calling him misogynistic, which I never used that word in the piece, although I guess you could draw from the title that that was the implication. But specifically what he said was, ‘I’m facing all of these allegations of me being a misogymist, so to level the playing field, I’m going to sue this other creator named SeanDaBlack.’ And SeanDaBlack is yet another Twitch streamer who also reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. And Ethan was basically saying, well, if you’re accusing me of suing a bunch of women, I’ll sue this guy as well, under the condition that he would not sue Sean if I apologized to him, which was super, super bizarre. And it definitely, you know, invoked a big response from his audience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>He basically accused me of calling him misogynistic, which I never used that word in the piece, although I guess you could draw from the title that that was the implication. But specifically what he said was, ‘I’m facing all of these allegations of me being a misogymist, so to level the playing field, I’m going to sue this other creator named SeanDaBlack.’ And SeanDaBlack is yet another Twitch streamer who also reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. And Ethan was basically saying, well, if you’re accusing me of suing a bunch of women, I’ll sue this guy as well, under the condition that he would not sue Sean if I apologized to him, which was super, super bizarre. And it definitely, you know, invoked a big response from his audience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sean also seen perplexed. He responded to the threat in his own stream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sean also seen perplexed. He responded to the threat in his own stream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack-Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: But like, ya’ll ain’t need to bring me into this. Right? I should only be mentioned in the, in the most handsome streamer conversation. That’s it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack-Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: But like, ya’ll ain’t need to bring me into this. Right? I should only be mentioned in the, in the most handsome streamer conversation. That’s it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And I didn’t apologize. I, at the time, texted, like, a fellow journalist who was also involved in this and said like, you know, ‘you can post this on Twitter where I’m no longer active. And you can say that if this is truly gonna stop Ethan from suing this other creator, then I would apologize.’ But Ethan said that that didn’t count and SeanDaBlack did a stream where he was like.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And I didn’t apologize. I, at the time, texted, like, a fellow journalist who was also involved in this and said like, you know, ‘you can post this on Twitter where I’m no longer active. And you can say that if this is truly gonna stop Ethan from suing this other creator, then I would apologize.’ But Ethan said that that didn’t count and SeanDaBlack did a stream where he was like.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack -Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: Ethan’s trying to, uh, swing his dick around being like, uh-huh, I have so much money to spend. I have so much money to spend, right? He wants the back and forth. He wants me to be talking about this right now. And in his mind, he wants me to be scared. He wants me to be afraid.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack -Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: Ethan’s trying to, uh, swing his dick around being like, uh-huh, I have so much money to spend. I have so much money to spend, right? He wants the back and forth. He wants me to be talking about this right now. And in his mind, he wants me to be scared. He wants me to be afraid.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So then I wrote a follow-up piece being like, Ethan Klein doesn’t deserve my apology. And fortunately, he did not sue SeanDaBlack.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So then I wrote a follow-up piece being like, Ethan Klein doesn’t deserve my apology. And fortunately, he did not sue SeanDaBlack.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Sean, Kat saw Ethan’s threat of a lawsuit for what it really was. It’s a tactic called lawfare and it’s become increasingly common, especially in the influencer space. Let’s open another tab: the lawfare content economy. It’s interesting too, because there was nothing in your piece, your original piece, that he could sue you for.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Sean, Kat saw Ethan’s threat of a lawsuit for what it really was. It’s a tactic called lawfare and it’s become increasingly common, especially in the influencer space. Let’s open another tab: the lawfare content economy. It’s interesting too, because there was nothing in your piece, your original piece, that he could sue you for.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, you’re a journalist, you are protected under free speech laws. But choosing to threaten a completely different, unrelated creator, SeanDaBlack, who has a significantly smaller following than him and presumably much fewer legal resources, also didn’t sit right with a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, you’re a journalist, you are protected under free speech laws. But choosing to threaten a completely different, unrelated creator, SeanDaBlack, who has a significantly smaller following than him and presumably much fewer legal resources, also didn’t sit right with a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A lot of online compared this case to a tactic called lawfare. Can you explain what that is?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A lot of online compared this case to a tactic called lawfare. Can you explain what that is?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So, lawfare refers to a phenomenon where somebody launches a lawsuit, not because the case has an actual legal merit, but because they know it will cause so much harm to the defendant through legal costs and the pressure of being subjected to the legal system. It’s a term that has particularly grown popular due to Donald Trump’s habitual use of lawfare and other conservatives. We’ve seen this with Trump, we’ve seen this with Elon Musk. And we’re increasingly seeing it in the landscape of the internet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So, lawfare refers to a phenomenon where somebody launches a lawsuit, not because the case has an actual legal merit, but because they know it will cause so much harm to the defendant through legal costs and the pressure of being subjected to the legal system. It’s a term that has particularly grown popular due to Donald Trump’s habitual use of lawfare and other conservatives. We’ve seen this with Trump, we’ve seen this with Elon Musk. And we’re increasingly seeing it in the landscape of the internet.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ethan Klein is not the first creator to sue his critics and I know that he will not be the last. We’re seeing it more and more and people online are even referring to it as lolfare in this context, like LOL fare, because not only are they seeing it as a way to harass a target through the legal system, but they’re also seeing it as a way for the plaintiff, the person bringing the lawsuit to be able to make content out of it. And oftentimes this content is very tongue-in-cheek because in Ethan Klein’s case, he says that these lawsuits have merit. He has held to that. He continues to say that these lawsuits have merit and that they are not law fair but at the exact same time, he’s also made them such a prominent topic on his podcast and on his live show that he’s reaping a lot of benefit from it, too. And a lot people in his audience and a lot the detractors of these women are really, really enjoying it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ethan Klein is not the first creator to sue his critics and I know that he will not be the last. We’re seeing it more and more and people online are even referring to it as lolfare in this context, like LOL fare, because not only are they seeing it as a way to harass a target through the legal system, but they’re also seeing it as a way for the plaintiff, the person bringing the lawsuit to be able to make content out of it. And oftentimes this content is very tongue-in-cheek because in Ethan Klein’s case, he says that these lawsuits have merit. He has held to that. He continues to say that these lawsuits have merit and that they are not law fair but at the exact same time, he’s also made them such a prominent topic on his podcast and on his live show that he’s reaping a lot of benefit from it, too. And a lot people in his audience and a lot the detractors of these women are really, really enjoying it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And lawfare also fuels an entire genre of YouTube content called LawTube. It started with the defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Lawyers built huge followings online by discussing widely publicized cases. Other content creators, who primarily covered pop culture and influencer drama, jumped in too. They weren’t legal experts, but they also built audiences and made money by covering high-profile cases. Now, whatever lawfare is used against other creators, it feeds this thriving ecosystem of reaction content, which can direct more harassment against victims of lawfare.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And lawfare also fuels an entire genre of YouTube content called LawTube. It started with the defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Lawyers built huge followings online by discussing widely publicized cases. Other content creators, who primarily covered pop culture and influencer drama, jumped in too. They weren’t legal experts, but they also built audiences and made money by covering high-profile cases. Now, whatever lawfare is used against other creators, it feeds this thriving ecosystem of reaction content, which can direct more harassment against victims of lawfare.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>How does lawfare destabilize people who, you know, might be comfortable enough, but aren’t wealthy by any means?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>How does lawfare destabilize people who, you know, might be comfortable enough, but aren’t wealthy by any means?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong> One of the things that I think a lot of people don’t realize is just how expensive defending yourself legally is. Even if you ultimately win a case, it can still cost people tens of thousands of dollars just to file a motion to dismiss. So most lawyers charge, you know, hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour. So even if you don’t get to trial, you can still be looking at these just like staggering fees that could easily bankrupt the average person. Another aspect I think is just the emotional and mental toll it takes on people. Lawsuits are inherently really, really stressful. It involves so many filings, so much back and forth. And with every filing and every decision that a judge makes, it’s like resetting the clock on whether it’s gonna go your way or whether it won’t. So there are a lot of aspects that make lawfare not only one of the most, I would say, prominent modern harassment strategies but also something that can individually devastate people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong> One of the things that I think a lot of people don’t realize is just how expensive defending yourself legally is. Even if you ultimately win a case, it can still cost people tens of thousands of dollars just to file a motion to dismiss. So most lawyers charge, you know, hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour. So even if you don’t get to trial, you can still be looking at these just like staggering fees that could easily bankrupt the average person. Another aspect I think is just the emotional and mental toll it takes on people. Lawsuits are inherently really, really stressful. It involves so many filings, so much back and forth. And with every filing and every decision that a judge makes, it’s like resetting the clock on whether it’s gonna go your way or whether it won’t. So there are a lot of aspects that make lawfare not only one of the most, I would say, prominent modern harassment strategies but also something that can individually devastate people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>For Denims, this legal battle consumed most of the last year. It really affected her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>For Denims, this legal battle consumed most of the last year. It really affected her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>It is very stressful because I know that he has more money than me. He knows that he has more money than me. Everyone involved knows that he has significantly more money than me, so it’s like a very stressful process because so much of the legal system is based on how much you can pay for the best lawyers. So I think for a great period of time, I was incredibly stressed about financials or at least decently stressed about financials. But I think I’m just very lucky that I had a lot of people who supported me and I had lot of people who wanted to see me fight and who donated to my GoFundMe. And yeah, that was, I think the thing that was worse than the financial stuff was just like the time and the headache of… like, we could be spending this time productively. We could making content that’s fun, and instead we’re just sitting here talking to lawyers and prepping lawyer content and going to hearings or whatever. Like, it’s just…it was such a time sink. It still is sort of a time-sink.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>It is very stressful because I know that he has more money than me. He knows that he has more money than me. Everyone involved knows that he has significantly more money than me, so it’s like a very stressful process because so much of the legal system is based on how much you can pay for the best lawyers. So I think for a great period of time, I was incredibly stressed about financials or at least decently stressed about financials. But I think I’m just very lucky that I had a lot of people who supported me and I had lot of people who wanted to see me fight and who donated to my GoFundMe. And yeah, that was, I think the thing that was worse than the financial stuff was just like the time and the headache of… like, we could be spending this time productively. We could making content that’s fun, and instead we’re just sitting here talking to lawyers and prepping lawyer content and going to hearings or whatever. Like, it’s just…it was such a time sink. It still is sort of a time-sink.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And something you did say was that you weren’t going to settle. You weren’t gonna back down. What was motivating you through that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And something you did say was that you weren’t going to settle. You weren’t gonna back down. What was motivating you through that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I don’t like bullies. I think bullies suck. And it’s sad because once upon a time, Ethan was the person that went after the bullies, I think, and he like defended against the bullys. And then he like, he became that which he sought to destroy. And I’m sorry, like on principle, it seems wrong to just fold over or like roll ove and die on that, like… It’s, okay, so I immediately fold, everyone, all of us settle and we just try to get out of this case as quickly as possible. What social precedent does that set? Not even like a legal precedent, what social precedent does it set that the second someone with more money than you tries to fight, everyone just rolls over and says, okay, well, I’m not gonna fight this. Well, I am not gonna to fight this. Like, it opens the door for him or anyone else to just be able to pursue, like, bullsh*t lawsuits against lots of other people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I don’t like bullies. I think bullies suck. And it’s sad because once upon a time, Ethan was the person that went after the bullies, I think, and he like defended against the bullys. And then he like, he became that which he sought to destroy. And I’m sorry, like on principle, it seems wrong to just fold over or like roll ove and die on that, like… It’s, okay, so I immediately fold, everyone, all of us settle and we just try to get out of this case as quickly as possible. What social precedent does that set? Not even like a legal precedent, what social precedent does it set that the second someone with more money than you tries to fight, everyone just rolls over and says, okay, well, I’m not gonna fight this. Well, I am not gonna to fight this. Like, it opens the door for him or anyone else to just be able to pursue, like, bullsh*t lawsuits against lots of other people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so to recap, Ethan Klein, once hailed as “the fair use king,” took these three women creators to court for reacting to his content. Who won? And how will all of this impact the internet going forward? Let’s go back to Kat and open one more tab: the future of fair use and reaction content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so to recap, Ethan Klein, once hailed as “the fair use king,” took these three women creators to court for reacting to his content. Who won? And how will all of this impact the internet going forward? Let’s go back to Kat and open one more tab: the future of fair use and reaction content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s talk about the outcome of these lawsuits. What happened in each case?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s talk about the outcome of these lawsuits. What happened in each case?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, Kaseytron, her case ended up being withdrawn. We can assume that there was a settlement in play. And the other thing about settlements is that typically they’re negotiated confidentially. So there’s no way to know what actually transpired in those closed-door negotiations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, Kaseytron, her case ended up being withdrawn. We can assume that there was a settlement in play. And the other thing about settlements is that typically they’re negotiated confidentially. So there’s no way to know what actually transpired in those closed-door negotiations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Following the end of that lawsuit, Kasey actually posted a public apology, which Ethan and Hila reacted to on the H3 Podcast stream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Following the end of that lawsuit, Kasey actually posted a public apology, which Ethan and Hila reacted to on the H3 Podcast stream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast -Show #215]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: We’ll watch it all together, and move on all together. \u003cbr>Hila Klein: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr>Kaseytron: I want to begin by stating I take responsibility for infringing the content nuke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast -Show #215]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: We’ll watch it all together, and move on all together. \u003cbr>Hila Klein: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr>Kaseytron: I want to begin by stating I take responsibility for infringing the content nuke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Kaseytron, you know, hers ended earliest and she was able to move on, go back to her normal content and her normal streaming. Frogan is still fighting this lawsuit and she recently announced via a statement that she had hired Denims’ lawyers after her lawyers tried and failed to negotiate with Ethan over more than a year’s time. Her lawsuit temporarily entered like a default stage. But she has said in her statement that she will be moving forward. And then Denims actually won her lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Kaseytron, you know, hers ended earliest and she was able to move on, go back to her normal content and her normal streaming. Frogan is still fighting this lawsuit and she recently announced via a statement that she had hired Denims’ lawyers after her lawyers tried and failed to negotiate with Ethan over more than a year’s time. Her lawsuit temporarily entered like a default stage. But she has said in her statement that she will be moving forward. And then Denims actually won her lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The final ruling came out in July, and Denims was in the perfect place to celebrate her win.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The final ruling came out in July, and Denims was in the perfect place to celebrate her win.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not gonna lie, I happened to be in Vegas at the time and I hadn’t won any money in Vegas. I didn’t spend much, but I hadn’t t won anything. So it felt like I won. It felt like I won. There was something amazing about being in the middle of a casino and I get the news that I just won my case. And I’m like, oh my God, like I hit the jackpot, dude. I was so over the moon. I was so happy because I knew it was like a matter of time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not gonna lie, I happened to be in Vegas at the time and I hadn’t won any money in Vegas. I didn’t spend much, but I hadn’t t won anything. So it felt like I won. It felt like I won. There was something amazing about being in the middle of a casino and I get the news that I just won my case. And I’m like, oh my God, like I hit the jackpot, dude. I was so over the moon. I was so happy because I knew it was like a matter of time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so let’s talk about her case. There are four factors that courts use to determine fair use. What is the purpose and character of using the copyrighted work? What is a nature of the copyrighted work? How much of it was used? Did the copyright holder lose money because their work was used?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so let’s talk about her case. There are four factors that courts use to determine fair use. What is the purpose and character of using the copyrighted work? What is a nature of the copyrighted work? How much of it was used? Did the copyright holder lose money because their work was used?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And the only one that I didn’t win was simply the, I think it’s the second one that says that a work deserves copyright protections. So the judge said, hey, you know what? The content nuke has enough original things in it that it is considered not just a factual piece, but also a creative piece that deserves copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And the only one that I didn’t win was simply the, I think it’s the second one that says that a work deserves copyright protections. So the judge said, hey, you know what? The content nuke has enough original things in it that it is considered not just a factual piece, but also a creative piece that deserves copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The first factor is the most important in these cases, ‘the purpose and character of using copyrighted work.’ And this is the biggest question in the debate over reaction content. Was this use transformative? In other words, did it add something new? In Denims’ case, the judge found that her reaction stream met three out of four fair use standards.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The first factor is the most important in these cases, ‘the purpose and character of using copyrighted work.’ And this is the biggest question in the debate over reaction content. Was this use transformative? In other words, did it add something new? In Denims’ case, the judge found that her reaction stream met three out of four fair use standards.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And all of the other factors, the judge ruled in my favor on those. So he said, yeah, the purpose and the character of the work is very different. And he proceeded to cite Ethan Klein’s original filing and Ethan Klein’s original statement that said, the purpose of her character is the complete opposite of my character. He also said that the other factors were in my favor that it’s hard to see a market replacement or a market substitution when the work is so different, when there’s so much reaction. But most importantly, he said that the work was transformative and that I did add more than enough substantial commentary, pauses, critiques for it to be considered fair use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And all of the other factors, the judge ruled in my favor on those. So he said, yeah, the purpose and the character of the work is very different. And he proceeded to cite Ethan Klein’s original filing and Ethan Klein’s original statement that said, the purpose of her character is the complete opposite of my character. He also said that the other factors were in my favor that it’s hard to see a market replacement or a market substitution when the work is so different, when there’s so much reaction. But most importantly, he said that the work was transformative and that I did add more than enough substantial commentary, pauses, critiques for it to be considered fair use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And here’s where it gets really interesting. Remember back in 2017, when a judge ruled that Ethan and Hila’s reaction video was, in fact, fair use? That case, this legal precedence that the client set, came up a lot in the ruling for Denims’ case. Here’s Kat again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And here’s where it gets really interesting. Remember back in 2017, when a judge ruled that Ethan and Hila’s reaction video was, in fact, fair use? That case, this legal precedence that the client set, came up a lot in the ruling for Denims’ case. Here’s Kat again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I have the excerpt of the judge’s decision right in front of me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I have the excerpt of the judge’s decision right in front of me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Please read dramatically. \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Please read dramatically. \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So there is one line in particular that says, ‘the undisputed purpose of defendant’s live stream is to contest, criticize, and mock plaintiff’s message, which the courts have found weighs in favor of fair use due to its transformative nature see Hoss versus Klein.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So there is one line in particular that says, ‘the undisputed purpose of defendant’s live stream is to contest, criticize, and mock plaintiff’s message, which the courts have found weighs in favor of fair use due to its transformative nature see Hoss versus Klein.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And he kept citing t to say, no, you can use a lot of a work and it’s still fair use. No, you should be able to criticize the people. That’s the heart of fair use, to be able to criticize people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And he kept citing t to say, no, you can use a lot of a work and it’s still fair use. No, you should be able to criticize the people. That’s the heart of fair use, to be able to criticize people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> That original case is actually cited a dozen times in the official judgment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> That original case is actually cited a dozen times in the official judgment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So as soon as this ruling and decision came out, critics of Ethan Klein were just like, ‘this is incredible. This is one of the most incredible turns that this could have taken.’ But it’s also not something people were super surprised by because from the very onset of these lawsuits, people pointed out how, again, hypocritical they found it that Ethan was suing someone over the very same cause of action that he had been sued for less than a decade prior. So them citing his own lawsuit win in his current lawsuit loss really was the cherry on top for people who had been arguing that these lawsuits were meritless the entire time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So as soon as this ruling and decision came out, critics of Ethan Klein were just like, ‘this is incredible. This is one of the most incredible turns that this could have taken.’ But it’s also not something people were super surprised by because from the very onset of these lawsuits, people pointed out how, again, hypocritical they found it that Ethan was suing someone over the very same cause of action that he had been sued for less than a decade prior. So them citing his own lawsuit win in his current lawsuit loss really was the cherry on top for people who had been arguing that these lawsuits were meritless the entire time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In addition to filing the lawsuits against these three women, Ethan has also filed more lawsuits against more creators, and as the lawsuits pile up, more and more creators throughout the entire ecosystem have begun to speak out against Ethan Klein. People started to leave Ethan Klein’s fan base. There is like another subreddit that is former fans of Ethan Klein who have spoken out against these lawsuits. There’s been a ton of viral tweets, viral TikToks basically painting him as just this new villain of the YouTube landscape. And not everybody sees it that way, but enough people do that I think it really has changed his reputation for the worse. I think if you’re not an H3 fan and if you barely know who Ethan Klein is, you’re probably gonna know him because of all of these posts that have to do with him being someone who sues his critics and tries to sue them into silence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In addition to filing the lawsuits against these three women, Ethan has also filed more lawsuits against more creators, and as the lawsuits pile up, more and more creators throughout the entire ecosystem have begun to speak out against Ethan Klein. People started to leave Ethan Klein’s fan base. There is like another subreddit that is former fans of Ethan Klein who have spoken out against these lawsuits. There’s been a ton of viral tweets, viral TikToks basically painting him as just this new villain of the YouTube landscape. And not everybody sees it that way, but enough people do that I think it really has changed his reputation for the worse. I think if you’re not an H3 fan and if you barely know who Ethan Klein is, you’re probably gonna know him because of all of these posts that have to do with him being someone who sues his critics and tries to sue them into silence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Some people might argue that everything that went down is just mindless internet drama that, I mean, like TikTok commentators like to constantly claim, it’s not that deep. But why does this matter for everyone? How does this ripple into every part of the internet?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Some people might argue that everything that went down is just mindless internet drama that, I mean, like TikTok commentators like to constantly claim, it’s not that deep. But why does this matter for everyone? How does this ripple into every part of the internet?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say it really is that deep for a couple of reasons. One, social media and content creation is at the forefront of how we disseminate news and information today. Almost everyone is on social media, and increasingly, a majority of people get their news and information from content creators online. So having the freedom to speak your mind and analyze and, yes, react to other people’s content is really, really important in today’s modern world. And so the threat of lawsuits like this is something that I think could have a really negative effect on democracy, on free speech, and so on and so forth. So I think it really is that deep. And I think if people want to protect our access to information and our ability to have a voice and not be chilled into silence, then they should care about this because it could have major consequences beyond just this streaming community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say it really is that deep for a couple of reasons. One, social media and content creation is at the forefront of how we disseminate news and information today. Almost everyone is on social media, and increasingly, a majority of people get their news and information from content creators online. So having the freedom to speak your mind and analyze and, yes, react to other people’s content is really, really important in today’s modern world. And so the threat of lawsuits like this is something that I think could have a really negative effect on democracy, on free speech, and so on and so forth. So I think it really is that deep. And I think if people want to protect our access to information and our ability to have a voice and not be chilled into silence, then they should care about this because it could have major consequences beyond just this streaming community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims, being an Arab-American woman who talks about progressive politics on the internet, has a lot of haters. There are so many people, many of whom are men, who’ve grown their own following by clipping her content and bashing her on their channels. The scrutiny she already faced intensified over the last year because of this very public legal battle. But as annoying as these hate watchers are, Denims pointed out that her victory is also a win for them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims, being an Arab-American woman who talks about progressive politics on the internet, has a lot of haters. There are so many people, many of whom are men, who’ve grown their own following by clipping her content and bashing her on their channels. The scrutiny she already faced intensified over the last year because of this very public legal battle. But as annoying as these hate watchers are, Denims pointed out that her victory is also a win for them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>The people who enjoy criticizing me, a ruling that was bad for me, would have been bad for them. I think until the filing became official, I think it was internet drama. And I think after the filing, it’s like, dog, this is like, this affects everything on the internet, everything. It impacts what kind of content is allowed on Twitter. It impacts what kind of contact is allowed on Reddit. It impacts the content on YouTube. Like, it impacts so much. And even if you don’t personally care for my content or my commentary or my political views, you should want your favorite content creator to be able to critique the people that they dislike or disagree with. It is important to have people be able speak on the issues they want to speak on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>The people who enjoy criticizing me, a ruling that was bad for me, would have been bad for them. I think until the filing became official, I think it was internet drama. And I think after the filing, it’s like, dog, this is like, this affects everything on the internet, everything. It impacts what kind of content is allowed on Twitter. It impacts what kind of contact is allowed on Reddit. It impacts the content on YouTube. Like, it impacts so much. And even if you don’t personally care for my content or my commentary or my political views, you should want your favorite content creator to be able to critique the people that they dislike or disagree with. It is important to have people be able speak on the issues they want to speak on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan took to Instagram stories after the ruling came out. He wrote, I’m extremely confident that this will be overturned by the appellate courts and we will be proceeding with the appeal immediately. Close All Tabs reached out to his team for comment, but we have not received a response. Denims, meanwhile, posted her own update.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan took to Instagram stories after the ruling came out. He wrote, I’m extremely confident that this will be overturned by the appellate courts and we will be proceeding with the appeal immediately. Close All Tabs reached out to his team for comment, but we have not received a response. Denims, meanwhile, posted her own update.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: Before we start, let me bring in our honored guest. You might have previously known him as “the fair use king. “\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: Before we start, let me bring in our honored guest. You might have previously known him as “the fair use king. “\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She reaches off camera and pulls a tripod into the frame. On it is a mannequin head with a printed photo of Ethan Klein taped over it. It’s wearing a gold costume crown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She reaches off camera and pulls a tripod into the frame. On it is a mannequin head with a printed photo of Ethan Klein taped over it. It’s wearing a gold costume crown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: And let me just…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: And let me just…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She plucks off the crown and places it on her own head.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She plucks off the crown and places it on her own head.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: There we go. Much better.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: There we go. Much better.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, I think everybody called him “the fair use king” for such a long time. And I think the second you start suing other creators for doing the same thing that you got really big and popular for, I think you should lose the rights to that crown, the social rights to that crown. And I think you should give it to the person who’s actually trying to defend fair use. Because it’s not just fair use when it’s the people that you like. It’s not freedom of speech when it’s people saying things you like. It’s—it should also apply when people aren’t saying things that you like, when people are saying things that you dislike. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and if it’s too heavy for you, I will gladly take it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, I think everybody called him “the fair use king” for such a long time. And I think the second you start suing other creators for doing the same thing that you got really big and popular for, I think you should lose the rights to that crown, the social rights to that crown. And I think you should give it to the person who’s actually trying to defend fair use. Because it’s not just fair use when it’s the people that you like. It’s not freedom of speech when it’s people saying things you like. It’s—it should also apply when people aren’t saying things that you like, when people are saying things that you dislike. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and if it’s too heavy for you, I will gladly take it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and edited by Chris Hambrick. Additional production support from Ana de Almeida Amaral. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, our intern Lauren Yoon, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. This episode features clips and archive tape from H3H3 Productions, the H3 Podcast, Leftovers, Kaseytron, Frogan, SeanDaBlack, and Denims. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and edited by Chris Hambrick. Additional production support from Ana de Almeida Amaral. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, our intern Lauren Yoon, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. This episode features clips and archive tape from H3H3 Productions, the H3 Podcast, Leftovers, Kaseytron, Frogan, SeanDaBlack, and Denims. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I will be continuing to fight. Ethan said he will be taking this to appeals. So I guess maybe in 18 months or whatever, when I win that, then I can give more updates then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I will be continuing to fight. Ethan said he will be taking this to appeals. So I guess maybe in 18 months or whatever, when I win that, then I can give more updates then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"title": "Why The Ethan Klein Fair Use Lawsuits Are Way More Than Internet Beef | KQED",
"description": "When Twitch streamer Denims made a reaction video about Ethan Klein's nearly two-hour takedown video of Hasan Piker, she wasn’t expecting to be sued for copyright infringement. She employed a commonly-used method of streaming the original video and interjecting with reactions, commentary and analysis. But Klein, who was once seen as a champion of fair use after he won a similar lawsuit in 2017, sued Denims and other content creators anyway. Morgan talks to Denims and journalist Kat Tenbarge about what made these cases different and how reaction content across the internet could change based on how the courts ultimately rule.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Twitch streamer Denims made a reaction video about Ethan Klein’s nearly two-hour takedown video of Hasan Piker, she wasn’t expecting to be sued for copyright infringement. She employed a commonly-used method of streaming the original video and interjecting with reactions, commentary and analysis. But Klein, who was once seen as a champion of fair use after he won a similar lawsuit in 2017, sued Denims and other content creators anyway. Morgan talks to Denims and journalist Kat Tenbarge about what made these cases different and how reaction content across the internet could change based on how the courts ultimately rule.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5056668526\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/denims\">Denims\u003c/a>, political Twitch streamer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/kattenbarge?s=20\">Kat Tenbarge\u003c/a>, independent journalist, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061994/a-political-reckoning-for-twitch\">A Political Reckoning for Twitch? | KQED\u003c/a> — Close All Tabs, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-lawsuits-kaceytron-frogan-denims\">Ethan Klein’s War on Women\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-seandablack-lawsuits-kaceytron-denims-frogan-taylor-lorenz\">Ethan Klein Doesn’t Deserve My Apology\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/culture/2025/07/01/a-youtuber-kicks-up-a-stink-over-a-flatulent-reaction-video\">A YouTuber kicks up a stink over a flatulent “reaction” video\u003c/a> — staff, \u003cem>The Economist\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://copyrightlately.com/whats-up-copyright-lately-summer-2026-roundup/#h-content-nuked\">What’s Up With Copyright Lately?: Summer Breeze Edition\u003c/a> — Aaron Moss, \u003cem>Copyright Lately\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tubefilter.com/2024/09/19/should-youtube-introduce-revenue-sharing-for-reaction-content/\">Should YouTube introduce revenue-sharing for reaction content?\u003c/a> — James Hale, \u003cem>Tubefilter\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/reactgate-twitch-streamer-xqc-and-h3-podcast-host-ethan-klein-debate-whether-reaction-videos-are-stolen-content-215557884.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEHVC7yDZDpT9LR_mf2G9uNjbyzmVlCsUX88WTUkq-MGvwqcdCJw5UOuLLQrhAajCZzEi6bejwgRXLx5IK-BfXlRk0Q3ME8WghOI7A2Zqq5tCmPrEEuKTSYSQ-NzB1mJiijoGkCHCb_3T82qwCQbTkjpmoJju6xjtmOBKcvZwf5H\">‘Reactgate’: Twitch streamer xQc and ‘H3 Podcast’ host Ethan Klein debate whether ‘reaction videos’ are ‘stolen content’\u003c/a> — Katie Mather, \u003cem>Yahoo News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/4349864/ethan-klein-h3h3productions-fair-use-protection-account-fupa/\">How h3h3’s Ethan Klein Might Change YouTube Forever\u003c/a> — Melissa Chan, \u003cem>Time Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Tabbies. We need your help. If you like our deep dives and you want to hear more, then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video] \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hi there. It’s me, your old friend, Ethan Klein. It’s been a while since we’ve last spoken. In that time I’ve had three kids, all boys, I’ve lost a hundred pounds, and I’ve pissed off 75% of the in-\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And I became insane.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That second voice you just heard is Alexandra Saber, a Twitch streamer better known as…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Everyone I know calls me Denims, so…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna keep calling her Denims for this episode. She’s been on the show before, when we talked about the growing corner of political commentary on Twitch. The situation we’re diving into today is related to that. So last year, Ethan Klein, the YouTuber behind the channel H3H3 Productions and host of the H3 Podcast, dropped a content nuke. This is a long-form video format that Ethan himself popularized. It’s basically an extensive takedown criticizing another creator for their behavior, comments, and past posts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The content nuke is like a deep dive, building the case to cancel someone else. Ethan had been teasing this video for months, so his fan base was pretty hyped. And this one was about someone he had been publicly feuding with for years: streamer, political commentator, and his former friend, Hasan Piker. Ethan’s nearly 2-hour-long video starts with J. Robert Oppenheimer quoting Hindu scripture, which he famously referenced after he watched the detonation of the nuclear bomb he designed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[ Audio of J. Robert Oppenheimer]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then the video launches into a super cut of clips from Hasan’s stream, layered with footage of a nuclear bomb after impact, mushroom cloud and all. Denims wasn’t impressed, so she streamed her reaction, which did involve playing the video on her channel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of wild claims that were made in that video that were just factually untrue. And so I would pause, I would make jokes or I’d pause and I would say, well, this isn’t true. Like, here’s this and this and this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims’ reaction Twitch stream]\u003cbr>Speaker: That lines up with leftist values.\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hasan’s third claim is—\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[clicking sound]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: Okay, first of all, they he’s not even providing sources for half of this stuff. I… He’s provided like bits and segments, if any. Okay?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I think people just like myself, when I’m curious about a video, but I know that it’s going to be filled with falsehoods, I want to watch an expert talk about it and break down what’s wrong with that video, sort of like watching in a weird way, I guess, like Mythbusters. And I think that’s why a lot of people tuned into my stream to watch that the two hour video turned into a four hour livestream, cause I wanted to see someone say, no, this isn’t true. Here’s this article that shows this isn’t true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, months later, she found herself at the center of one of the most talked about lawsuits in the content creator world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I do remember that I found out the exact same way that everyone else found out. So he released this video on like June, was it, I think it was 19th.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: Hi there. My name is Ethan Klein, and my favorite hobby is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. Today, I invite you into my home to share my favorite past time with you. Join me in creating generational wealth for my attorney.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>This is a video, another video that he had been teasing for a while and I was kind of curious what it was gonna be about. I was like, is it gonna be a sequel to the original? Is it gonna be a video on some other creators? And so I’m like watching this video, I’m, like, hmm, that’s me on the screen. That is an official court document with my name on it. And then I click and it’s like, it’s almost a little bit disbelief that it’s real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Well, I’m happy to tell you guys now, I, Ethan Klein, have registered Hasan Piker content nuke with the United States Library of Congress. Some of you guys out there sweating?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims’ stream falls under this genre known as reaction content, videos and live streams in which creators react to and comment on content made by others. You’ll see this on Twitch and TikTok and YouTube and Reels. They’ll play a short clip from a movie or political speech or someone else’s video, and then give their take. Reaction content relies on this legal doctrine called fair use. Fair use is what protects the unlicensed use of copyrighted material if it’s used in news reporting, criticism, teaching, research, and commentary. And fair use is fundamental to the internet as we know it, because it protects freedom of expression. But there are, of course, limits. Which is why, at first, Denims was worried she had stepped into actual copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I go back, I watch my original video, I watched my original, like, reaction, and then I felt a lot better. I was like, okay, wait, wait…I took a 2 hour video, I turned it into 4 hours. I had a bunch of links where I showed people articles. I showed people a bunch context for things. I commented a bunch, and I really tried to transform the video and transform the content to the best of my ability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Here’s the ironic twist. The doctrine of fair use that protects content creators like Denims’? Ethan himself set the precedent when it comes to internet content by winning a different lawsuit nearly 10 years ago. In fact, for a long time, he was known as the “the fair use king.” It’s a big reason why Denims was so shocked.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Like, the guy who’s known as the “the fair use king” is going to sue me and other creators for reacting to his video. Huh?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims is not the only streamer Ethan went after, but the three creators he sued were also among dozens of others who made similar videos, all using the original content nuke. And as critics have pointed out, there’s a pattern among the creators that Ethan did choose to single out. So how did Ethan Klein, once the “the fair use king” and champion of free speech, become the kind of litigious antagonist that he once defeated?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, we’re diving into why this case is more than just a feud between influencers. It has ripple effects that would impact nearly every platform and every piece of content that you engage with online. There’s so much to unpack here. Censorship, power dynamics, and years of personal beef. It is so much bigger than just internet drama. Buckle up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s open our first tab. Why did Ethan Klein sue other streamers? Today we’re here to talk about a series of lawsuits that kind of rocked the content creator economy. At their very core, what are these three lawsuits about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So these three lawsuits are about copyright infringement and specifically whether it is a copyright infringment violation to stream and react to another creator’s content on your own platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Kat Tenbarge has also been on Close All Taps before. She’s an independent journalist who runs the newsletter Spitfire News, and she covers the intersection of influencers and politics. She also covered this case, and in doing so, unwillingly became part of the story herself. We’ll get into that part later in the episode, but let’s talk about everything leading up to these lawsuits first.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In this case, three Twitch streamers each played a YouTuber’s video on their live stream and reacted to it. And then he sued them for copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m really curious, like, who watches this content? What is the impact culturally online?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, so, so many people watch this type of content. I see it in so many different places, and I imagine that a lot of audience members don’t even register it as reaction content because it’s become so ubiquitous. But even like, the biggest news and politics creators, a lot what they do is reaction content. If you are watching somebody do like a stitch on TikTok or Instagram Reels, that’s a form of reaction content, or if you ever go on Twitch, that is reaction content for the most part, because even when someone is playing a video game, they’re still taking someone else’s intellectual property and sort of making it their own. Like, reaction content is basically one of the building blocks of most content today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, what was your first reaction, speaking of reaction content, but what was the first reaction when you saw the news of Ethan Klein’s recent lawsuits?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, my first reaction, I was pretty surprised because I think a lot of people online saw this as a very hypocritical move. Back in 2017, Ethan Klein was sued himself by another content creator for the exact same reason, copyright infringement, after he reacted to and parodied and mocked a different YouTuber’s material. And that lawsuit was a really defining point in Ethan Klein’s own career. So, you know, fast forward less than a decade later, he’s basically doing the exact same thing to these three women.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2016. This YouTuber, Matt Hoss, had this comedy series called The Bold Guy. In these sketches, Matt plays this pick-up artist who also does parkour. It has not aged well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Matt Hoss’ The Bold Guy Video]\u003cbr>Woman: Who are you calling an attention whore? \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: I’m asking, because you keep sticking your ass up in the air. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Woman: I have the right to exercise here if I want. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: Of course you do, and I have a right to approach and talk to you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In this video, the woman slaps Matt and then tells him to catch her. A parkour chase ensues. Ethan and his wife, Hila, saw this and posted their own video where they played clips and made fun of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Look, can you imagine the casting call for this? Looking for a cute, petite, parkour girl to star in my parkour sex video.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan and Hila’s video was 14 minutes long. It used three minutes of Matt’s original video. Well, Matt didn’t like that. So he filed a copyright notice with YouTube and YouTube took down Ethan and Hila’s video. Ethan and Hila challenged the takedown and argued fair use. So in 2017, Matt sued them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when this lawsuit was launched against them, they issued a plea to the YouTube community at large basically pointing out that if they lost, it would set a really bad precedent for everybody because it would mean that everybody could potentially be sued over the type of content that had already become so popular, so mainstream, and so ubiquitous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: After a year and a half of doing depositions, filing summaries, motions, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, we slammed this b*tch, dude! YES! We won the court case! YES!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when they won that case, it felt like they had established this precedent that wouldn’t just protect them, but would also protect all of these other creators.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, how did this pretty landmark decision that, like you said, set that precedent, open the door for the explosion of commentary content and reaction videos and media criticism video essays?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the the precedent that was set by Ethan and Hila winning this lawsuit was that it fell under the category of fair use as long as you were putting your own commentary spin on whatever you were reacting to. So for example, you can’t just stream someone else’s content on your channel and walk away and let it play for the entirety of the clip, but as long you’re engaging with it in some way, shape, or form, that is what the judge determined allowed it to fall under fair use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so there’s that legal precedent, but it seems like Ethan’s stance on this issue is like dramatically different. Can you briefly catch us up on how Ethan, his content, and his audience have changed since winning that 2017 lawsuit?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So since 2017, Ethan and Hila have really leaned into podcasting as like the main content that they make and the way they engage with their audience. And this drama stems from a podcast that Ethan had done previously with Hasan Piker called Leftovers. Leftovers ran for a few years and it was both of them talking about politics from this like leftist perspective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Leftovers #31]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: I mean, Trump took a fat f*cking L, dude. Yeah. And you’re seeing it already, we have a whole section in here of Republicans turning on Trump.\u003cbr>Hasan Piker: Here’s the issue. This is not a Donald Trump issue. This is a Republican party issue. Here’s why…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’ve talked about Hasan on this show a bunch. He’s the guy who turned political commentary streams into a viable genre on Twitch. Leftovers was this collaboration between the superstar of a burgeoning corner of Twitch and the YouTube “fair use king.” They joked around, made fun of Trump supporters, interviewed economists, and reacted to what was happening in politics at the time. And they genuinely did seem like friends, but ultimately, it didn’t last.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In late 2023, after Hamas attacked Israel, things really shifted between the two of them because Hasan Piker is really principled in his advocacy for Palestinians and his opposition to Israel, whereas Ethan Klein actually lived in Israel for a period of time, his wife Hila served in the IDF and is Israeli, and his perspective on the matter is very different. The two of them have kind of gone in between both sides of this, but the perception, at least widely online, is that they’re much more pro-Israeli than Hasan is. And so this drove a wedge between these content creators that has just grown and grown and grown and grown. There has been a ton of back and forth drama between the two of them, allegations slung in both directions. And it all kind of led up to Ethan creating something that he described as a content nuke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Content Nuke Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: The funny thing about me, I don’t like terrorism, and I don’t like terrorists. If they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, they’re all bad. And over time I started to learn that my co-host, he really likes terrorists.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>It was a nearly two hour long video criticizing and sort of condemning Hasan Piker. And when Ethan made this video, it obviously set off sort of a bomb in the discourse space where a bunch of different Twitch streamers, people who loved Hasan, people who hated Hasan people who were friends with Hasan, people who were sort of like associates or orbiters of Hasan they were all reacting to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In the later video where he announced the lawsuits, Ethan called the content nuke a trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: It’s not that I wanted these people to steal my video. It’s that I knew they would. The trap was set and it worked even better than I imagined it would. We captured pretty much every large streamer reacting to it in its entirety immediately after it was published.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan sued three women for using his content nuke in their reaction streams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Each of them played it while they were Twitch streaming and each of them offered their own commentary throughout the video. But the argument that Ethan made in his lawsuits is that they didn’t offer enough commentary for it to fall under fair use. And one of the things that he claimed they had done is that, they had basically established their intent to divert views from his channel so that he would reap fewer profits, which he viewed as a violation of his copyright.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Ethan himself said, many major streamers and YouTubers reacted to the content nuke. But he only went after three of them. All of them are women, and they also share a lot of political stances. Why did Ethan single them out? We’ll talk about that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OK. More on the content nuke, the lawsuits, and a tricky intimidation tactic called lawfare. That’s after this break. Stick around!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Who did Ethan Klein sue? And why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, Hasan is mentioned throughout these lawsuits pretty extensively,.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But he himself is not a defendant in any of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about the three women who are. Who are these creators? What is their content like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, so the three women who Ethan Klein sued are Kaceytron, Denims, and Frogan. And obviously those aren’t their real names. Those are the names that they go by on Twitch. But Kaceytron, I would say out of the three, had the least to do with the drama between Ethan and Hasan. She’s a longtime Twitch streamer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Kaceytron reaction video]\u003cbr>Kaceytron: I know a lot of people have been wanting to watch this without necessarily supporting Ethan Klein, so we’re gonna watch it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>She’s known for having an audience of sort of like the girls and the gays, and she does a lot of satirical, really kind of like, purposefully like tongue-in-cheek content that sometimes touches on politics. So she was one of the defendants who Ethan sued, and she also is known for having a pretty modest background. She grew up in what she and her family describes as generational poverty. And once this lawsuit was officially filed and she got served, she talked about how depressed she was and how much this was pushing her and sort of her family members to the very edge. So that was Kaceytron’s story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Denims and Frogan are two women of color who are also Twitch streamers. Denims has a bigger platform than Frogan. Frogan has worked very closely with Hasan Piker in the past, and both of them had sort of come under attack from Ethan and the H3 fandom previously because they had this sort of closer relationship with Hasan Piker. And I would say both of them also, as women of color, and Frogan in particular, as a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, also previously had received a ton of consistent, almost nonstop racist harassment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Frogan Twitch video]\u003cbr>Frogan: I do appreciate everyone’s support, and thank you for watching it with me. He doesn’t want people to know when it’s dropping because we’re all watching through other streamers. And I suggest you all watch it through other people as well.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>These lawsuits became a vector for that harassment, where it was just another reason for creators to make almost daily content about these women, smearing them, attacking them, even going so far as harassing them in some cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And it’s also worth noting that two of these women already had histories with Ethan Klein. Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So as sort of the Hamas-Israel war becomes this wedge issue driving Hasan Piker and Ethan Klein apart, you also saw Ethan really go on the attack against creators who were really supportive of Palestinians and Palestine. And one of the ways he did this is he would identify things that these creators had done as anti-Semitic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A few years ago, Frogan and Denims were part of a TwitchCon panel for Arab creators, and they jokingly created a ranking of people who can say habibi. Here’s Denims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And for some context, habibi just means my love. So like, obviously anyone can say it. It’s kind of like saying inshallah, like anyone can say that. And at the bottom of the tier list was a category called “loves sabra.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Based on the hummus brand Sabra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Which they were making fun of as like the worst hummus that you can buy at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>A hummus that most people dislike because it tastes not good. And we put a variety of creators on the bottom tier list, myself included in that category because it was just a fun tier list but we also had put Ethan Klein in that list.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Ethan had sort of characterized this as anti-Semitic because it’s an Israeli hummus brand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Me and the other four creators, got banned from Twitch for 30 days and lost ad rev. So this has been like a long standing chain of events that’s gone on for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But Ethan has also had beef with other creators who reacted to his content nuke. A couple of years ago, there was “Reactgate.” It was this huge internet wide debate over the way certain reaction creators used other people’s content without adding any real commentary or original substance. Amid the discourse, Ethan accused another Twitch streamer, xQc, of being a content thief. The feud culminated in a very heated live streamed argument between the two.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Debating xQc On Copyright-H3TV #86]\u003cbr>xQc: People would rather watch me full-screen cam, do the f*cking worm than watch your prime content. \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Bro, do it for a week. Do a week of no reaction content and see how many f*cking views you get.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>xQc was one of the many creators who reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. But despite their previous feud over this exact issue, Ethan did not sue xQc. In the video announcing the lawsuits, Ethan said,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: These people were not targeted based on their gender, their identity, their political beliefs.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it is worth noting that they all orbit Hasan Piker. They’re smaller creators with similar views who make similar content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So they do share a lot of the same audience. There’s a lot crossover there. And even on a personal level, a lot these creators are friends with each other. They have sort of like collaborations or partnerships in the past. And so they almost sort of orbit around the ecosystem that Hasan has created.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It almost seems like these lawsuits were part of a kind of proxy war with Hasan Piker.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, that is definitely how a lot of people online saw the situation. You saw a lot the same critics of Hasan pivot to support and endorse these lawsuits. And you also saw people in the H3 fandom sort of use this as part of their digital online war on Hasan and his associates, like these women who were being sued were almost treated as stand-ins for Hasan Piker himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Besides the fact that they all kind of orbit Hasan Piker, are there any theories as to why Ethan would choose to target these specific creators?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I think that like among critics of Ethan Klein, a lot of the consensus around these lawsuits is that these were more vulnerable targets. Being women in the creator space and especially women of color, your earning potential and the size of your audience tends to be smaller. In Kaseytron’s case, like we previously discussed, she expressed that she could not afford a lawsuit, that hiring a legal defense would be a significant cost that she wouldn’t be able to shoulder. Each of these women launched a GoFundMe shortly after they were sued. And each of them talked about sort of the undue financial stress that this put upon them, as compared to some of these bigger content creators like Hasan Piker, who would more easily be able to afford a legal defense because he’s making exponentially more money on the platform than these women were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So all of this is going down online. And last summer, you wrote a piece titled, “Ethan Klein’s War on Women.” What was that essay about, and how was it received?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So I wrote this piece as sort of an explainer because there wasn’t a ton of mainstream media coverage of these cases. There’s been mainstream coverage of Ethan Klein in the past, but despite how big these YouTubers are and how consequential their platforms can be, the mainstream media still doesn’t really understand them or I think appreciate how consequential they are. So I wrote this for my independent newsletter And the basic thrust of my piece is that these three women were each super, super vulnerable in their own way and that because of all of the harassment they were already receiving on a regular basis this was a moment where they were about to receive a lot more and how unfair i felt like that was and it fit in really well with the coverage that I already do because a lot of the topics that I cover are how these types of lawsuits can be used to smear and silence women. For example, I’ve covered Depp v. Heard and Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni and I’ve talked a lot about how these lawsuits and lawfare in general can be used as sort of targeted harassment against women in a really harmful and oftentimes devastating way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s very interesting the way that Ethan Klein himself reacted to the piece. What did he say?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>He basically accused me of calling him misogynistic, which I never used that word in the piece, although I guess you could draw from the title that that was the implication. But specifically what he said was, ‘I’m facing all of these allegations of me being a misogymist, so to level the playing field, I’m going to sue this other creator named SeanDaBlack.’ And SeanDaBlack is yet another Twitch streamer who also reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. And Ethan was basically saying, well, if you’re accusing me of suing a bunch of women, I’ll sue this guy as well, under the condition that he would not sue Sean if I apologized to him, which was super, super bizarre. And it definitely, you know, invoked a big response from his audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sean also seen perplexed. He responded to the threat in his own stream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack-Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: But like, ya’ll ain’t need to bring me into this. Right? I should only be mentioned in the, in the most handsome streamer conversation. That’s it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And I didn’t apologize. I, at the time, texted, like, a fellow journalist who was also involved in this and said like, you know, ‘you can post this on Twitter where I’m no longer active. And you can say that if this is truly gonna stop Ethan from suing this other creator, then I would apologize.’ But Ethan said that that didn’t count and SeanDaBlack did a stream where he was like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack -Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: Ethan’s trying to, uh, swing his dick around being like, uh-huh, I have so much money to spend. I have so much money to spend, right? He wants the back and forth. He wants me to be talking about this right now. And in his mind, he wants me to be scared. He wants me to be afraid.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So then I wrote a follow-up piece being like, Ethan Klein doesn’t deserve my apology. And fortunately, he did not sue SeanDaBlack.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Sean, Kat saw Ethan’s threat of a lawsuit for what it really was. It’s a tactic called lawfare and it’s become increasingly common, especially in the influencer space. Let’s open another tab: the lawfare content economy. It’s interesting too, because there was nothing in your piece, your original piece, that he could sue you for.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, you’re a journalist, you are protected under free speech laws. But choosing to threaten a completely different, unrelated creator, SeanDaBlack, who has a significantly smaller following than him and presumably much fewer legal resources, also didn’t sit right with a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A lot of online compared this case to a tactic called lawfare. Can you explain what that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So, lawfare refers to a phenomenon where somebody launches a lawsuit, not because the case has an actual legal merit, but because they know it will cause so much harm to the defendant through legal costs and the pressure of being subjected to the legal system. It’s a term that has particularly grown popular due to Donald Trump’s habitual use of lawfare and other conservatives. We’ve seen this with Trump, we’ve seen this with Elon Musk. And we’re increasingly seeing it in the landscape of the internet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ethan Klein is not the first creator to sue his critics and I know that he will not be the last. We’re seeing it more and more and people online are even referring to it as lolfare in this context, like LOL fare, because not only are they seeing it as a way to harass a target through the legal system, but they’re also seeing it as a way for the plaintiff, the person bringing the lawsuit to be able to make content out of it. And oftentimes this content is very tongue-in-cheek because in Ethan Klein’s case, he says that these lawsuits have merit. He has held to that. He continues to say that these lawsuits have merit and that they are not law fair but at the exact same time, he’s also made them such a prominent topic on his podcast and on his live show that he’s reaping a lot of benefit from it, too. And a lot people in his audience and a lot the detractors of these women are really, really enjoying it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And lawfare also fuels an entire genre of YouTube content called LawTube. It started with the defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Lawyers built huge followings online by discussing widely publicized cases. Other content creators, who primarily covered pop culture and influencer drama, jumped in too. They weren’t legal experts, but they also built audiences and made money by covering high-profile cases. Now, whatever lawfare is used against other creators, it feeds this thriving ecosystem of reaction content, which can direct more harassment against victims of lawfare.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How does lawfare destabilize people who, you know, might be comfortable enough, but aren’t wealthy by any means?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong> One of the things that I think a lot of people don’t realize is just how expensive defending yourself legally is. Even if you ultimately win a case, it can still cost people tens of thousands of dollars just to file a motion to dismiss. So most lawyers charge, you know, hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour. So even if you don’t get to trial, you can still be looking at these just like staggering fees that could easily bankrupt the average person. Another aspect I think is just the emotional and mental toll it takes on people. Lawsuits are inherently really, really stressful. It involves so many filings, so much back and forth. And with every filing and every decision that a judge makes, it’s like resetting the clock on whether it’s gonna go your way or whether it won’t. So there are a lot of aspects that make lawfare not only one of the most, I would say, prominent modern harassment strategies but also something that can individually devastate people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>For Denims, this legal battle consumed most of the last year. It really affected her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>It is very stressful because I know that he has more money than me. He knows that he has more money than me. Everyone involved knows that he has significantly more money than me, so it’s like a very stressful process because so much of the legal system is based on how much you can pay for the best lawyers. So I think for a great period of time, I was incredibly stressed about financials or at least decently stressed about financials. But I think I’m just very lucky that I had a lot of people who supported me and I had lot of people who wanted to see me fight and who donated to my GoFundMe. And yeah, that was, I think the thing that was worse than the financial stuff was just like the time and the headache of… like, we could be spending this time productively. We could making content that’s fun, and instead we’re just sitting here talking to lawyers and prepping lawyer content and going to hearings or whatever. Like, it’s just…it was such a time sink. It still is sort of a time-sink.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And something you did say was that you weren’t going to settle. You weren’t gonna back down. What was motivating you through that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I don’t like bullies. I think bullies suck. And it’s sad because once upon a time, Ethan was the person that went after the bullies, I think, and he like defended against the bullys. And then he like, he became that which he sought to destroy. And I’m sorry, like on principle, it seems wrong to just fold over or like roll ove and die on that, like… It’s, okay, so I immediately fold, everyone, all of us settle and we just try to get out of this case as quickly as possible. What social precedent does that set? Not even like a legal precedent, what social precedent does it set that the second someone with more money than you tries to fight, everyone just rolls over and says, okay, well, I’m not gonna fight this. Well, I am not gonna to fight this. Like, it opens the door for him or anyone else to just be able to pursue, like, bullsh*t lawsuits against lots of other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so to recap, Ethan Klein, once hailed as “the fair use king,” took these three women creators to court for reacting to his content. Who won? And how will all of this impact the internet going forward? Let’s go back to Kat and open one more tab: the future of fair use and reaction content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s talk about the outcome of these lawsuits. What happened in each case?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, Kaseytron, her case ended up being withdrawn. We can assume that there was a settlement in play. And the other thing about settlements is that typically they’re negotiated confidentially. So there’s no way to know what actually transpired in those closed-door negotiations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Following the end of that lawsuit, Kasey actually posted a public apology, which Ethan and Hila reacted to on the H3 Podcast stream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast -Show #215]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: We’ll watch it all together, and move on all together. \u003cbr>Hila Klein: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr>Kaseytron: I want to begin by stating I take responsibility for infringing the content nuke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Kaseytron, you know, hers ended earliest and she was able to move on, go back to her normal content and her normal streaming. Frogan is still fighting this lawsuit and she recently announced via a statement that she had hired Denims’ lawyers after her lawyers tried and failed to negotiate with Ethan over more than a year’s time. Her lawsuit temporarily entered like a default stage. But she has said in her statement that she will be moving forward. And then Denims actually won her lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The final ruling came out in July, and Denims was in the perfect place to celebrate her win.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not gonna lie, I happened to be in Vegas at the time and I hadn’t won any money in Vegas. I didn’t spend much, but I hadn’t t won anything. So it felt like I won. It felt like I won. There was something amazing about being in the middle of a casino and I get the news that I just won my case. And I’m like, oh my God, like I hit the jackpot, dude. I was so over the moon. I was so happy because I knew it was like a matter of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so let’s talk about her case. There are four factors that courts use to determine fair use. What is the purpose and character of using the copyrighted work? What is a nature of the copyrighted work? How much of it was used? Did the copyright holder lose money because their work was used?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And the only one that I didn’t win was simply the, I think it’s the second one that says that a work deserves copyright protections. So the judge said, hey, you know what? The content nuke has enough original things in it that it is considered not just a factual piece, but also a creative piece that deserves copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The first factor is the most important in these cases, ‘the purpose and character of using copyrighted work.’ And this is the biggest question in the debate over reaction content. Was this use transformative? In other words, did it add something new? In Denims’ case, the judge found that her reaction stream met three out of four fair use standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And all of the other factors, the judge ruled in my favor on those. So he said, yeah, the purpose and the character of the work is very different. And he proceeded to cite Ethan Klein’s original filing and Ethan Klein’s original statement that said, the purpose of her character is the complete opposite of my character. He also said that the other factors were in my favor that it’s hard to see a market replacement or a market substitution when the work is so different, when there’s so much reaction. But most importantly, he said that the work was transformative and that I did add more than enough substantial commentary, pauses, critiques for it to be considered fair use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And here’s where it gets really interesting. Remember back in 2017, when a judge ruled that Ethan and Hila’s reaction video was, in fact, fair use? That case, this legal precedence that the client set, came up a lot in the ruling for Denims’ case. Here’s Kat again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I have the excerpt of the judge’s decision right in front of me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Please read dramatically. \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So there is one line in particular that says, ‘the undisputed purpose of defendant’s live stream is to contest, criticize, and mock plaintiff’s message, which the courts have found weighs in favor of fair use due to its transformative nature see Hoss versus Klein.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And he kept citing t to say, no, you can use a lot of a work and it’s still fair use. No, you should be able to criticize the people. That’s the heart of fair use, to be able to criticize people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> That original case is actually cited a dozen times in the official judgment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So as soon as this ruling and decision came out, critics of Ethan Klein were just like, ‘this is incredible. This is one of the most incredible turns that this could have taken.’ But it’s also not something people were super surprised by because from the very onset of these lawsuits, people pointed out how, again, hypocritical they found it that Ethan was suing someone over the very same cause of action that he had been sued for less than a decade prior. So them citing his own lawsuit win in his current lawsuit loss really was the cherry on top for people who had been arguing that these lawsuits were meritless the entire time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to filing the lawsuits against these three women, Ethan has also filed more lawsuits against more creators, and as the lawsuits pile up, more and more creators throughout the entire ecosystem have begun to speak out against Ethan Klein. People started to leave Ethan Klein’s fan base. There is like another subreddit that is former fans of Ethan Klein who have spoken out against these lawsuits. There’s been a ton of viral tweets, viral TikToks basically painting him as just this new villain of the YouTube landscape. And not everybody sees it that way, but enough people do that I think it really has changed his reputation for the worse. I think if you’re not an H3 fan and if you barely know who Ethan Klein is, you’re probably gonna know him because of all of these posts that have to do with him being someone who sues his critics and tries to sue them into silence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Some people might argue that everything that went down is just mindless internet drama that, I mean, like TikTok commentators like to constantly claim, it’s not that deep. But why does this matter for everyone? How does this ripple into every part of the internet?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say it really is that deep for a couple of reasons. One, social media and content creation is at the forefront of how we disseminate news and information today. Almost everyone is on social media, and increasingly, a majority of people get their news and information from content creators online. So having the freedom to speak your mind and analyze and, yes, react to other people’s content is really, really important in today’s modern world. And so the threat of lawsuits like this is something that I think could have a really negative effect on democracy, on free speech, and so on and so forth. So I think it really is that deep. And I think if people want to protect our access to information and our ability to have a voice and not be chilled into silence, then they should care about this because it could have major consequences beyond just this streaming community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims, being an Arab-American woman who talks about progressive politics on the internet, has a lot of haters. There are so many people, many of whom are men, who’ve grown their own following by clipping her content and bashing her on their channels. The scrutiny she already faced intensified over the last year because of this very public legal battle. But as annoying as these hate watchers are, Denims pointed out that her victory is also a win for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>The people who enjoy criticizing me, a ruling that was bad for me, would have been bad for them. I think until the filing became official, I think it was internet drama. And I think after the filing, it’s like, dog, this is like, this affects everything on the internet, everything. It impacts what kind of content is allowed on Twitter. It impacts what kind of contact is allowed on Reddit. It impacts the content on YouTube. Like, it impacts so much. And even if you don’t personally care for my content or my commentary or my political views, you should want your favorite content creator to be able to critique the people that they dislike or disagree with. It is important to have people be able speak on the issues they want to speak on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan took to Instagram stories after the ruling came out. He wrote, I’m extremely confident that this will be overturned by the appellate courts and we will be proceeding with the appeal immediately. Close All Tabs reached out to his team for comment, but we have not received a response. Denims, meanwhile, posted her own update.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: Before we start, let me bring in our honored guest. You might have previously known him as “the fair use king. “\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She reaches off camera and pulls a tripod into the frame. On it is a mannequin head with a printed photo of Ethan Klein taped over it. It’s wearing a gold costume crown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: And let me just…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She plucks off the crown and places it on her own head.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: There we go. Much better.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, I think everybody called him “the fair use king” for such a long time. And I think the second you start suing other creators for doing the same thing that you got really big and popular for, I think you should lose the rights to that crown, the social rights to that crown. And I think you should give it to the person who’s actually trying to defend fair use. Because it’s not just fair use when it’s the people that you like. It’s not freedom of speech when it’s people saying things you like. It’s—it should also apply when people aren’t saying things that you like, when people are saying things that you dislike. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and if it’s too heavy for you, I will gladly take it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and edited by Chris Hambrick. Additional production support from Ana de Almeida Amaral. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, our intern Lauren Yoon, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. This episode features clips and archive tape from H3H3 Productions, the H3 Podcast, Leftovers, Kaseytron, Frogan, SeanDaBlack, and Denims. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I will be continuing to fight. Ethan said he will be taking this to appeals. So I guess maybe in 18 months or whatever, when I win that, then I can give more updates then.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-pink-pill-pipeline-and-the-online-war-against-birth-control",
"title": "The Pink Pill Pipeline and the Online War Against Birth Control",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It starts with aspirational lifestyle content about “embracing your femininity,” but ends with alt-right ideology and conspiracy theories about reproductive care. This is the pink pill pipeline — one of the primary ways young women are radicalized online today. Seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture leads to increasingly conservative and extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis or how women don’t need to vote. It’s all wrapped up in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Reporter Kylie Cheung joins to discuss how seemingly apolitical content online is shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights through coordinated misinformation campaigns, and how to spot pink pill content for what it is.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5702825517\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://substack.com/@kylietcheung?utm_source=about-page\">Kylie Cheung\u003c/a>, staff reporter at \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/how-celebrity-smear-campaigns-are\">How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control\u003c/a> — Kylie Cheung, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/far-right-birth-control-conspiracy-theories/\">Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block\u003c/a> — Cassie Miller, \u003cem>Southern Poverty Law Center\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/princess-treatment-trend-conservative-pipeline\">We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline\u003c/a> — Jessica Valenti, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://emilyinyourphone.substack.com/p/i-caught-a-secret-right-wing-influence\">I Caught a Secret Right-Wing Influence Operation Running In My Feed\u003c/a> — Emily Amick, \u003cem>Emily In Your Phone\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://revealnews.org/podcast/the-long-campaign-to-turn-birth-control-into-the-new-abortion/\">The Long Campaign to Turn Birth Control Into the New Abortion\u003c/a> — Katharine Mieszkowski, \u003cem>Reveal\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/09/inside-anti-abortion-groups-campaign-to-sell-women-on-unreliable-birth-control-alternatives/\">Inside Anti-Abortion Groups’ Campaign to Sell Women on Unreliable Birth Control “Alternatives”\u003c/a> — Kiera Butler, \u003cem>Mother Jones\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2026/04/25/birth-control-maha-abortion-trump-00889738\">Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. \u003c/a>— Mary Ziegler, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2026/07/10/rfk-jr-pronatalism-birth-control/\">The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement\u003c/a> — Jessica Washington, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hello. Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends! Post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you’re starting arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re a young woman online, you may have seen posts from Evie Magazine. It has a chic millennial pink logo and taglines like “helping women harness their feminine energy.” Its website features glossy, aspirational photo shoots of women modeling gauzy dresses on the Mediterranean coast, women doing yoga in coordinated pastel workout sets, and women riding horseback through arid Southwestern grasslands. They’re paired with articles like, “What the It Girls Are Wearing in Italy This Summer,” and “Is Your Bra Making You Sick?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You probably would not suspect that there’s anything like, quote unquote “political” about this publication at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is Kylie Cheung, the staff reporter for the newsletter, Abortion, Every Day. She’s been covering reproductive health care and women’s rights for years, working at Jezebel and Salon. At first glance, Evie Magazine’s content doesn’t appear that different from the coverage of the publications where Kylie used to work. But push past the surface, and something else emerges. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You might see their presence on, say, Instagram if you like see a post about celebrity news, then you might follow them or you might go back to their website, and then slowly but surely start to see more content that’s really pushing motherhood, young motherhood, like anti-birth control messages. They describe themselves as like a magazine for celebrating true womanhood and femininity, and as we know all of that has increasingly become kind of this right-wing dog whistle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you dig a little deeper into Evie’s website, you’ll find articles on why Love Island actually makes a case against casual sex, how Netflix’s Little House on the Prairie is quote, “The Most Pro-American Show in Years,” and coverage of celebrities who’ve denounced birth control. In fact, Evie publishes at least one anti-birth control article per month, filled with of birth control causing strokes, depression, hormonal chaos, and… bisexuality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>That is such a good one. I remember in like 2022, I was reporting on this influx of TikToks about conspiracy theories that like, my birth control made me gay or this or that. And it’s just like, maybe you were, maybe you’re just gay, which is like, totally cool and everything. And then if something is seen as like unsafe or dangerous that contributes to… a consensus that there should be more restrictions or it should be harder to access, and that is ultimately a right-wing political goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Evie Magazine has been hailed as the “conservative Cosmo.” In addition to the digital and print content, Evie also hosts live events and sells raw milkmaid dresses — a play on the far-right raw milk craze and the cottagecore trend that dominated the early 2020s fashion cycle. Oh, and there’s Evie’s FemTech debut — a period-tracking app funded by Peter Thiel that promises to help women wean off of birth control in favor of “natural cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>If you just say we need to like ban birth control, that isn’t really on its face going to be a popular message, but colluding with kind of this whole “MAHA” and like alternative health scene of pushing for this idea that any amount of like quote unquote “chemicals” and putting this or that in your body, that that is kind of what you might see at a website. Like Evie, that claims to be like an apolitical female lifestyle brand that, you know, isn’t going to overtly say, “We think birth control should be banned,” but is going to kind of push these messages, really questioning and kind of contributing to like, lessening the popularity of birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the pink pill pipeline. This is the way young women are radicalized online — through seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture — which steers them toward influencers who assure them that giving up their career is an empowering choice… and that caring about politics is for the boys, anyway. And soon enough, extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis, or how women don’t need to vote, don’t feel extreme at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that content, of course, is wrapped in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Today, we’re exploring how seemingly apolitical content online is actually shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights — through coordinated misinformation campaigns and aspirational lifestyle posts. And let me tell you, it’s a lot easier to get sucked in than you might think. Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know how this goes. Let’s open our first tab. What is the pink pill pipeline? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think like, end of 2024, when we were seeing all of these conversations come up about how the quote unquote “Manosphere” helped Trump win the election by like, connecting with young men and how he’d gone on all of these like Manosphere-y podcasts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Logan Paul’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Biden is just so bad. He’s the worst president in the history of our country. You should make a diss track on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Theo Von’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Is cocaine a stronger, uh, up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie, you know what I’m saying? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Adin Ross’s stream from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Well, today is going to be the most important stream I’ve ever done. Right in the living room of Mar-a-Lago. And we’ll have a little fun today. Let’s do it. My son Barron says hello, but he’s a big fan of yours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of them, they’ll have interviewed or endorsed Trump, but they won’t call themselves political. It’s because they draw in and radicalize so many young men precisely by presenting as apolitical, where first, young men might be drawn to their content that’s dating advice, or stuff about MMA fighting, or any number of things that aren’t inherently political, but then just because of how algorithms work, or as you continue to watch their videos or content — eventually they just start saying pretty misogynistic or racist things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is an alt-right ideology known as the red pill: the belief that men are disadvantaged in modern society — and that it’s feminism’s fault. Taking the red pill is a nod to this scene in The Matrix — when Neo learns that his entire life is a simulation. Morpheus offers him a choice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of The Matrix from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Incels and self-described “men’s rights activists” have used the metaphor of the red pill to describe “waking up” to their victimhood and resisting “progressive” notions like… women having any agency at all. The manosphere calls for a return to the patriarchal glory of the past. Today, red-pilling is used to describe the way people are radicalized into far-right ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Manosphere content can be wildly misogynistic — but the way young men fall into these online circles is through lifestyle content that appears apolitical: weightlifting, dating advice, style tips. The pink pill pipeline is the other side of this coin. The phrase was coined by journalist Lois Shearing. Her 2025 book, “Pink-pilled,” examines how women are lured into far-right ideology. Just like with red-pilling, pink-pilling also starts with seemingly apolitical lifestyle content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of these creators or influencers will not overtly identify as Republican agents. They will, in fact, probably reel in young women through content or short-form videos where they talk about celebrity gossip, or maybe they’ll talk about health advice, and eventually get to disparaging and pushing misinformation about birth control. If you’re a young woman and you hate your job, they might give you advice about how to start dating like, a rich man and how you can achieve something akin to like a tradwife lifestyle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We talked about tradwives in our episode on Mormon momfluencers. They’re women who’ve rejected a modern career path and rely on their husbands to be the breadwinners. Tradwives are supposed to manage the household, do all the chores, take care of the kids, and lead their family’s return to traditional gender roles. Hence, tradwife. Tradwife content was pretty trendy for a while. Videos of baking bread from scratch, homeschooling children, and performing motherhood. But, as it turns out, being a stay-at-home mom, taking care of an entire family on a single income, is not glamorous — it’s hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As more horror stories have emerged about the economic precarity of this reality, the tradwife lifestyle has started to lose its appeal. In fact, the most prominent pink pill figures have shifted their messaging away from promoting the tradwife lifestyle — because they know it’s unpopular. Like Emma Waters. She’s a researcher for the Heritage Foundation, the far-right think tank behind Project 2025. Emma Waters has been promoting a middle ground between tradwives and girlboss feminists. But still promoting motherhood above all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emma Waters for Fox News from TikTok]: \u003c/strong>How can we structure what career success and the career trajectory of mothers looks like first, and then build in our career and education to complement that? So maybe women won’t work full-time. About 60% of women say that they would actually prefer to be a homemaker. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that kind of rhetoric is still divisive. It’s certainly not the soft on-ramp to conservative ideology that lifestyle content is. Celebrity news, for one, is a much more palatable entry point. Take Candace Owens, the far-right political commentator, podcaster, and conspiracy theorist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason why Candace Owens has her own news platform that’s dedicated to celebrity news when she is like, a politics person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Candace Owens from TikTok] \u003c/strong>Personally, I’m starting to wonder if Cynthia is about to steal Ariana from Ethan Slater, which would be some great justice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Where you can reel someone in with your cultural takes and eventually build like, this cultural consensus to like a right-wing agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pink pill pipeline often starts with dating advice. It’s very aspirational. Other young women showing off their luxurious lifestyles paid for by their boyfriends or husbands. You’ll hear buzzwords like “soft life” and “feminine energy” and “princess treatment.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Earth Angel Ariana]: \u003c/strong>I used to be a tomboy and play basketball, tackle football, and now I just feel like a princess wifey. I just feel like life is so soft and feminine, like men do everything for me. My boyfriend gives me princess treatment all the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Laila Hakim]:\u003c/strong> Your man should wanna not only take care of you, but those around you, too. And he’s gonna do without hesitation. That man gets up so fucking fast, like, you won’t even be able to blink before he’s up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Andele Lara]:\u003c/strong> Girl, I’m in Chicago with my man, and I didn’t book a flight, hotel, or schedule anything. Because a real provider is always going to make time for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you’re a young woman, who’s been grinding in your career and still struggling to make ends meet — much less afford any of these luxuries — and on top of that, dating sucks… then this kind of content is alluring. It’s very easy to get sucked in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that the success of these different buzzwords and seemingly apolitical trends is that, you know, they spring from these very specific and very real frustrations. A lot of us were just like, set up to be screwed over by the economy as it exists. And I think that in traditional American politics, you hear all the time about frustrated working class men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then, I think there is a lot of frustration among the demographic of young women who are also just very exploited as workers and really getting the short end of the stick economically. So that tends to then be catered to in a different way of this content that’s geared toward like, “You could have an amazing life if you just quit your terrible job. Um, your job mistreats and exploits you and all of this is exploitation. And it would actually be empowering if you just quit and married someone and had kids and took care of your kids.” And like, there is a real appeal there. If you hate your job, or if you’re struggling and you’re frustrated in that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The word “empowering” is used a lot in pink pill content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>A lot of these female lifestyle influencers who might not present as anti-feminist, they really will like, couch their specific choices in this performatively feminist language. You could even just see this with something slightly unrelated, but also very related of like vaccine skepticism. It’s like so couched in like, my body, my choice language. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On its face, aspirational dating content doesn’t seem to be anti-feminist or regressive, especially when compared to the overt tradwife videos. But it also opens the door for a quieter, more insidious erosion of women’s agency and relationships. There is this Mormon influencer, Courtney Palmer, who went mega-viral last year for her videos on how to get the “princess treatment.” She talks about how her husband always opens the door for her, and how she rarely ties her own shoes because her husband will do it for her. And how do you secure the so-called provider? Well, Courtney has some advice: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>I’m at a restaurant with my husband, I do not talk to the hostess, I do not open any doors, and I do not order my own food. You’re just letting your husband lead and be masculine. He made the reservation, let him do the logistics, you’re just being a princess. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This messaging is particularly effective on young women, because it’s coming from their peers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>They’re not like, Ted Cruz. They’re not like, you know, these Republican politicians. They’re, like, female lifestyle influencers, they’re young women. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>If the waiter addresses you first, I will simply just look at my husband and my husband will order. You don’t need to over speak, over exert yourself. You can be feminine and soft and quiet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So to recap, here’s how the pink pill pipeline works: you’re a woman in your 20s — you might stumble across a post on Instagram about why Zendaya wants to be a mother. Celebrity news and pop culture is eye-catching. You follow the account. Then, you go on TikTok and see a video from a woman whose life seems so much easier and so much more luxurious than yours. Her fiance pays for everything. She doesn’t have to lift a finger. Who wouldn’t want that? You’re trying to be more active, so you go on YouTube and look up instructional videos for pilates at home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, your social media algorithms start feeding you more content — based on what you’ve already engaged with. More about the soft life. More tips for finding a provider boyfriend. YouTube shorts about the values of young motherhood. Instagram reels about holistic health, and clean living, and detoxifying your diet — which will make you hotter and increase your chances of finding a provider boyfriend. TikToks about why your birth control might be making you sick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There are people who aren’t kind of traditionally associated with going after reproductive rights or going after women’s rights. It looks a lot more organic if they’re just seemingly naturally talking about the connections between like, birth control causing infertility, which is not true and is not backed up by anything. And that’s supposedly meaning, giving way to like, the quote unquote, like, “IVF industry” of like, of now that so many women lost their fertility from using birth control, they now need IVF. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Wait, what? Once you’re sucked into the pink pill pipeline, this conspiracy is everywhere. We’re going to get into that in a new tab — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay. After the break, the link between the pink pill, misinformation, and the war on birth control. Stick around. Let’s open a new tab: does birth control make you infertile? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Ugh, I mean no, there’s just like, no… evidence of this whatsoever. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On the internet, there’s this pervasive conspiracy theory that long-term hormonal birth control use leads to infertility, which is somehow funding the modern IVF industry. Like Kylie said, there is zero clinical evidence of this. This is a pretty extreme conspiracy theory, but anti-birth control content is on the rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A 2025 study, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, analyzed 100 of the top TikTok videos related to contraception, between August and September 2023. The videos had a collective 4.85 billion views — they were brimming with misinformation about hormonal birth control. Over half of the videos explicitly rejected hormonal birth control, and over a third of the videos recommended natural cycle tracking, without disclosing the limits of it. Only 10% of the videos were created by medical professionals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This stuff is everywhere online. Here’s what the conversation around birth control looks like right now — and this is on mainstream social media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Casiah West]: \u003c/strong>Your gynecologist isn’t really telling you how bad birth control is. What’s ironic is, the leading cause of death in women is heart disease. Is it that women are dying from heart disease because of birth control? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user The Workout Witch]:\u003c/strong> Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your body, specifically for your body’s biological stress response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Whatever Pod from TikTok]:\u003c/strong> If you actually look at the birth control usage rates and divorce rates, they actually perfectly coincide with like a three-year delay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Jay Shetty]:\u003c/strong> So we’re changing the hormone balance in women in a way that may not be completely reversible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]:\u003c/strong> Girls that I know who had like the implant in their arm or who have been on the pill for over 10 years cannot get pregnant. Almost like that was the entire point and plan in the first place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>These sensational claims flatten a reality that is complex and nuanced. It’s true that people have wildly different experiences with birth control. Many women have been dismissed, mistreated, and discriminated against by the medical system. Medical misogyny is real, and the history of birth control is steeped in it. The pill was tested on Puerto Rican women, and doctors did dismiss reports of side effects as “psychosomatic.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, a lot of women are still not offered adequate pain management for IUD insertions. There’s no “one-size-fits-all” birth control option, so figuring out what actually works for your body can take a bit of trial and error, which can be especially discouraging when your doctors aren’t listening. I, myself, have had mixed experiences with birth control. Kylie has too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that you’d be hard-pressed to talk to any woman or any person who uses or has used at different points hormonal birth control, and hear that they had an absolutely flawless, perfect, pain-free experience. Their bodies might not react that well to like, hormonal-birth control pills or any number of different methods. And I think that that is all incredibly valid and can’t be, you know, pushed under the rug. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are just a lot of… difficult realities with our healthcare system, how our medical system treats the experiences and bodies of women or people who use birth control. I think that what you’ll kind of see on social media are kind of these narratives that really tend to flatten that, or just capitalize on the fact that we have these negative experiences to push these different messages about the safety, or effectiveness of birth control, even though… you know, medically speaking, birth control is very safe and very effective. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s just that we, as different people with different bodies will have different experiences with it. But I think that, you know, that there’s no room for that kind of nuance in like the kinds of social media posts, and what ends up happening is that like, a lot of storytelling can be taken out of context and then fed into like this right-wing political agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The existing negative experiences that many people have had with reproductive health care means that the cultural discourse is primed to be co-opted by far-right political movements. Like pink-pill dating advice, there are certain buzzwords that raise red flags for Kylie — especially words like “natural” and “cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cycle tracking is a perfectly valid form of contraception. Lots of people can’t take hormonal birth control for health reasons and have successfully relied on cycle tracking. But when influencers disparage other forms of contraception and insist on the “natural element” without disclosing that it’s one of the least effective forms of birth control? Red flags. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>What we have is this very, very regressive agenda, but really packaged in kind of this feminist way. And like, if you really, if you like, squint or if you aren’t that educated in these issues yourself, like, sure, it might even sound like it makes sense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s only in the last few years that anti-birth control sentiments have gained so much momentum. We need to talk about when this uptick started. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I really started noticing and reporting on it specifically around like, 2022, which coincidentally, you know, was the year that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With Roe v. Wade overturned, many far-right religious groups and anti-abortion organizations have a new mission: to make birth control the new abortion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dasha Burns for NBC News from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>In the months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Maggie Olivia went to the pharmacy to pick up her birth control prescription. The pharmacists denied her prescription because they were unsure if it was legal, which it was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s open one more tab: the war on birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Make America Healthy Again — this is the Trump administration’s health initiative, spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., U.S. Health Secretary and notorious anti-vaxxer. The “MAHA” movement is fueled by skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. Practices and medications under scrutiny include: childhood vaccine schedules, Tylenol during pregnancy, antidepressants, ADHD drugs. And now, hormonal birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Amna Nawaz for PBS News Hour]: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Trump administration scrubbed CDC guidance on birth control from government websites and froze $65 million in funding to family planning clinics that provide free or low-cost contraception. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Department of Health and Human Services just overhauled Title X (ten). This is a federal grant program originally designed to help low-income Americans access birth control and other reproductive health care. Kylie said this program has always had bipartisan support, going all the way back to when Nixon signed it into law, over 50 years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now, according to a funding notice published at the beginning of July, grants funded through the program will, quote, “build body literacy, address infertility, plan and space pregnancies, and navigate reproductive health conditions such as endometriosis.” Contraception is not mentioned, except in a section about “over-medicalization.” Clinics that receive Title X (ten) funding are instructed to promote fertility awareness-based methods — like, natural cycle tracking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Some really concerning things have been like, the State Department equating certain forms of birth control and labeling them as abortifacient — and we’ve seen that a couple of times coming directly from this administration, and the goal then being to ban certain birth control or birth control more broadly, in the same way that abortion is banned. We’ve also seen the defunding of Planned Parenthood where like, what the language of that is is to suggest that reproductive healthcare and like, the provision of contraceptives and such isn’t actually health care — is kind of like the language. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Conservatives were not always this critical of birth control. In fact, many were pro-birth control. Back in 2015, Republicans actually introduced a bill to make it even more accessible — by incentivizing drug companies to sell over-the-counter birth control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there just has been this very sharp right-wing cultural pivot where a lot of this deeply pro-natalist language of human civilization and white Western society is in serious trouble if we don’t have a lot more babies really quick, like a lot of the Elon Musk rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Pro-natalism is an ideology that pushes for higher birth rates to combat the supposed “decline of civilization.” Anything that causes people to have more babies is on the table. Can you explain the link between this pro-natalist fear-mongering around falling birth rates and then white supremacist conspiracy theories? What is the great replacement theory that everyone’s freaking out about? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there is just this inherent link between, you know, panics about the birth rate and racial panics, even though obviously, you know sometimes it’ll be couched in this race-neutral language of just like the human race and declining birth rates there, or the fact that like abortion bans or denying people birth control access will affect people of all races and people of all races might then be forced to like move forward with a pregnancy they don’t want or whatnot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>It’s impossible to separate this panic from its racist roots. It started with fears of declining birth rates among white women. Kylie said the decline isn’t statistically significant. Experts say it’s likely due to declining teen pregnancy rates. But some extremists on the right claim that birth control is used to suppress white birth rates, in an attempt to replace white Americans as the racial majority. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There is just this deep tie between pronatalism and white nationalism in that way, just specifically because of how much white nationalism has like embraced pronatalism for its agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In 2022, just months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, UC Berkeley, Mother Jones, and Reveal teamed up for a massive reporting project. They uncovered a years-long social media campaign from anti-abortion groups — to capitalize on wellness trends, promote cycle tracking, and sow distrust in hormonal birth control. Conservative influencers have continued to push birth control skepticism online— often citing outdated or inconclusive research studies to back up their claims. Birth control misinformation continues to thrive on social media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]: \u003c/strong>Does anybody else find it just a teensy bit coincidental that they pushed birth control on Millennial and Gen Z teenagers so heavily and so early? And now, look at how booming IVF is? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That video has nearly identical wording to countless others. This year, political analyst Emily Amick published a three-part Substack series on the influencer campaign against birth control. She found dozens of Instagram posts from various lifestyle influencers that all had the same caption. They all said, and I quote, “I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the birth control pill was given out like candy to every female millennial at age 15. And now IVF is a $50 billion industry.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Abortion is very politically popular, and so I think even now it’s very interesting that you’ll see the Trump administration has refrained from taking certain moves to directly go after abortion, but has taken all of these many different moves to go after birth control and family planning. And I’ve read certain legal experts suspect as well, is that birth control in some ways is more vulnerable — because it’s increasingly less popular because of how much misinformation there is about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Over the last four years, there have been anecdotal reports of young women who’ve discontinued hormonal birth control because of what they see online. This is backed up by a 2024 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation. 49% of women between 18 and 25 have been served content about birth control on social media. 14% said they made a change to their birth control method or considered a change because of something they heard online. Kylie said, it’ll be decades until we understand the long-term effects of the online campaign against birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s easy to dismiss lifestyle content as frivolous and inconsequential. You might see a TikTok from a woman who brags about how her boyfriend pays all of their bills, and think… “It’s not that deep.” You might come across an influencer who questions the safety of IUDs and promotes natural cycle tracking — and it’s tempting to think… “That’s just her choice!” But the pink pill pipeline is real. Content targeted at women is rapidly becoming a vehicle for extremist ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since Trump’s re-election, concerns about the manosphere have dominated the political conversation. For all of the hand-wringing about bro-y podcasts radicalizing young men, there’s very little discussion about the young women buying into their own oppression. Content aimed at girls is just not taken seriously. That’s part of what makes the pink pill pipeline so effective. It’s the lack of awareness. There’s a political undercurrent to all of these girlish lifestyle videos, but it’s very easy to miss if you’re not already looking for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now, you know what to look for. Before you like a video, or follow an influencer, it’s worth taking a moment to really consider the agenda behind this content. Are they sharing a personal experience with one specific type of birth control? Or are they insisting that all birth control is bad — and that only the method they recommend is natural and healthy? Sure, the romantic date night content is cute, but… is the person posting it also telling you that you need to make yourself quiet and submissive if you want to find a man who’ll pick up the check? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The point is, you don’t have to engage with this content. But, if it comes across your feed, you should be ready to see it for what it is — and then you can keep scrolling. That’s it for our deep dive — but as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to go further down this rabbit hole, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. Until next week, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips and archive tape from Impaulsive, This Past Weekend with Theo Von, Adin Ross, The Matrix, Fox News, NBC News, PBS Newshour, and TikTok creators @earthangelariana, @ulovelailahakim, @theandelelara, Courtney Palmer, @casiahwest, @theworkoutwitch, @whateverpod, @jayshetty, and @prettypolitics101. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Yeah! Oh my God, now that I’m remembering it, I mean like in 2022, there was just like a viral moment of like a lot of different people theorizing that like, birth control makes you gay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I saw your “birth control makes people a lesbian rumor” piece and I was like, “That’s crazy,” because every lesbian I know says the complete opposite, that they went off the pill and they were like, “I don’t even like men.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>So fair, yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It starts with aspirational lifestyle content about “embracing your femininity,” but ends with alt-right ideology and conspiracy theories about reproductive care. This is the pink pill pipeline — one of the primary ways young women are radicalized online today. Seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture leads to increasingly conservative and extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis or how women don’t need to vote. It’s all wrapped up in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Reporter Kylie Cheung joins to discuss how seemingly apolitical content online is shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights through coordinated misinformation campaigns, and how to spot pink pill content for what it is.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It starts with aspirational lifestyle content about “embracing your femininity,” but ends with alt-right ideology and conspiracy theories about reproductive care. This is the pink pill pipeline — one of the primary ways young women are radicalized online today. Seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture leads to increasingly conservative and extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis or how women don’t need to vote. It’s all wrapped up in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Reporter Kylie Cheung joins to discuss how seemingly apolitical content online is shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights through coordinated misinformation campaigns, and how to spot pink pill content for what it is.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://substack.com/@kylietcheung?utm_source=about-page\">Kylie Cheung\u003c/a>, staff reporter at \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://substack.com/@kylietcheung?utm_source=about-page\">Kylie Cheung\u003c/a>, staff reporter at \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control — Kylie Cheung, Abortion, Every Day",
"Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block — Cassie Miller, Southern Poverty Law Center",
"We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline — Jessica Valenti, Abortion, Every Day",
"I Caught a Secret Right-Wing Influence Operation Running In My Feed — Emily Amick, Emily In Your Phone",
"The Long Campaign to Turn Birth Control Into the New Abortion — Katharine Mieszkowski, Reveal",
"Inside Anti-Abortion Groups’ Campaign to Sell Women on Unreliable Birth Control “Alternatives” — Kiera Butler, Mother Jones",
"Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. — Mary Ziegler, Politico",
"The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement — Jessica Washington, The Intercept"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/how-celebrity-smear-campaigns-are\">How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control\u003c/a> — Kylie Cheung, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/how-celebrity-smear-campaigns-are\">How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control\u003c/a> — Kylie Cheung, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/far-right-birth-control-conspiracy-theories/\">Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block\u003c/a> — Cassie Miller, \u003cem>Southern Poverty Law Center\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/far-right-birth-control-conspiracy-theories/\">Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block\u003c/a> — Cassie Miller, \u003cem>Southern Poverty Law Center\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/princess-treatment-trend-conservative-pipeline\">We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline\u003c/a> — Jessica Valenti, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2026/04/25/birth-control-maha-abortion-trump-00889738\">Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. \u003c/a>— Mary Ziegler, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2026/04/25/birth-control-maha-abortion-trump-00889738\">Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. \u003c/a>— Mary Ziegler, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2026/07/10/rfk-jr-pronatalism-birth-control/\">The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement\u003c/a> — Jessica Washington, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2026/07/10/rfk-jr-pronatalism-birth-control/\">The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement\u003c/a> — Jessica Washington, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hello. Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends! Post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you’re starting arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hello. Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends! Post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you’re starting arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you’re a young woman online, you may have seen posts from Evie Magazine. It has a chic millennial pink logo and taglines like “helping women harness their feminine energy.” Its website features glossy, aspirational photo shoots of women modeling gauzy dresses on the Mediterranean coast, women doing yoga in coordinated pastel workout sets, and women riding horseback through arid Southwestern grasslands. They’re paired with articles like, “What the It Girls Are Wearing in Italy This Summer,” and “Is Your Bra Making You Sick?” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you’re a young woman online, you may have seen posts from Evie Magazine. It has a chic millennial pink logo and taglines like “helping women harness their feminine energy.” Its website features glossy, aspirational photo shoots of women modeling gauzy dresses on the Mediterranean coast, women doing yoga in coordinated pastel workout sets, and women riding horseback through arid Southwestern grasslands. They’re paired with articles like, “What the It Girls Are Wearing in Italy This Summer,” and “Is Your Bra Making You Sick?” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You probably would not suspect that there’s anything like, quote unquote “political” about this publication at all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You probably would not suspect that there’s anything like, quote unquote “political” about this publication at all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is Kylie Cheung, the staff reporter for the newsletter, Abortion, Every Day. She’s been covering reproductive health care and women’s rights for years, working at Jezebel and Salon. At first glance, Evie Magazine’s content doesn’t appear that different from the coverage of the publications where Kylie used to work. But push past the surface, and something else emerges. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is Kylie Cheung, the staff reporter for the newsletter, Abortion, Every Day. She’s been covering reproductive health care and women’s rights for years, working at Jezebel and Salon. At first glance, Evie Magazine’s content doesn’t appear that different from the coverage of the publications where Kylie used to work. But push past the surface, and something else emerges. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You might see their presence on, say, Instagram if you like see a post about celebrity news, then you might follow them or you might go back to their website, and then slowly but surely start to see more content that’s really pushing motherhood, young motherhood, like anti-birth control messages. They describe themselves as like a magazine for celebrating true womanhood and femininity, and as we know all of that has increasingly become kind of this right-wing dog whistle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You might see their presence on, say, Instagram if you like see a post about celebrity news, then you might follow them or you might go back to their website, and then slowly but surely start to see more content that’s really pushing motherhood, young motherhood, like anti-birth control messages. They describe themselves as like a magazine for celebrating true womanhood and femininity, and as we know all of that has increasingly become kind of this right-wing dog whistle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you dig a little deeper into Evie’s website, you’ll find articles on why Love Island actually makes a case against casual sex, how Netflix’s Little House on the Prairie is quote, “The Most Pro-American Show in Years,” and coverage of celebrities who’ve denounced birth control. In fact, Evie publishes at least one anti-birth control article per month, filled with of birth control causing strokes, depression, hormonal chaos, and… bisexuality?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you dig a little deeper into Evie’s website, you’ll find articles on why Love Island actually makes a case against casual sex, how Netflix’s Little House on the Prairie is quote, “The Most Pro-American Show in Years,” and coverage of celebrities who’ve denounced birth control. In fact, Evie publishes at least one anti-birth control article per month, filled with of birth control causing strokes, depression, hormonal chaos, and… bisexuality?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>That is such a good one. I remember in like 2022, I was reporting on this influx of TikToks about conspiracy theories that like, my birth control made me gay or this or that. And it’s just like, maybe you were, maybe you’re just gay, which is like, totally cool and everything. And then if something is seen as like unsafe or dangerous that contributes to… a consensus that there should be more restrictions or it should be harder to access, and that is ultimately a right-wing political goal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>That is such a good one. I remember in like 2022, I was reporting on this influx of TikToks about conspiracy theories that like, my birth control made me gay or this or that. And it’s just like, maybe you were, maybe you’re just gay, which is like, totally cool and everything. And then if something is seen as like unsafe or dangerous that contributes to… a consensus that there should be more restrictions or it should be harder to access, and that is ultimately a right-wing political goal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Evie Magazine has been hailed as the “conservative Cosmo.” In addition to the digital and print content, Evie also hosts live events and sells raw milkmaid dresses — a play on the far-right raw milk craze and the cottagecore trend that dominated the early 2020s fashion cycle. Oh, and there’s Evie’s FemTech debut — a period-tracking app funded by Peter Thiel that promises to help women wean off of birth control in favor of “natural cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Evie Magazine has been hailed as the “conservative Cosmo.” In addition to the digital and print content, Evie also hosts live events and sells raw milkmaid dresses — a play on the far-right raw milk craze and the cottagecore trend that dominated the early 2020s fashion cycle. Oh, and there’s Evie’s FemTech debut — a period-tracking app funded by Peter Thiel that promises to help women wean off of birth control in favor of “natural cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>If you just say we need to like ban birth control, that isn’t really on its face going to be a popular message, but colluding with kind of this whole “MAHA” and like alternative health scene of pushing for this idea that any amount of like quote unquote “chemicals” and putting this or that in your body, that that is kind of what you might see at a website. Like Evie, that claims to be like an apolitical female lifestyle brand that, you know, isn’t going to overtly say, “We think birth control should be banned,” but is going to kind of push these messages, really questioning and kind of contributing to like, lessening the popularity of birth control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>If you just say we need to like ban birth control, that isn’t really on its face going to be a popular message, but colluding with kind of this whole “MAHA” and like alternative health scene of pushing for this idea that any amount of like quote unquote “chemicals” and putting this or that in your body, that that is kind of what you might see at a website. Like Evie, that claims to be like an apolitical female lifestyle brand that, you know, isn’t going to overtly say, “We think birth control should be banned,” but is going to kind of push these messages, really questioning and kind of contributing to like, lessening the popularity of birth control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the pink pill pipeline. This is the way young women are radicalized online — through seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture — which steers them toward influencers who assure them that giving up their career is an empowering choice… and that caring about politics is for the boys, anyway. And soon enough, extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis, or how women don’t need to vote, don’t feel extreme at all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the pink pill pipeline. This is the way young women are radicalized online — through seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture — which steers them toward influencers who assure them that giving up their career is an empowering choice… and that caring about politics is for the boys, anyway. And soon enough, extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis, or how women don’t need to vote, don’t feel extreme at all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that content, of course, is wrapped in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Today, we’re exploring how seemingly apolitical content online is actually shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights — through coordinated misinformation campaigns and aspirational lifestyle posts. And let me tell you, it’s a lot easier to get sucked in than you might think. Ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that content, of course, is wrapped in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Today, we’re exploring how seemingly apolitical content online is actually shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights — through coordinated misinformation campaigns and aspirational lifestyle posts. And let me tell you, it’s a lot easier to get sucked in than you might think. Ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know how this goes. Let’s open our first tab. What is the pink pill pipeline? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know how this goes. Let’s open our first tab. What is the pink pill pipeline? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think like, end of 2024, when we were seeing all of these conversations come up about how the quote unquote “Manosphere” helped Trump win the election by like, connecting with young men and how he’d gone on all of these like Manosphere-y podcasts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think like, end of 2024, when we were seeing all of these conversations come up about how the quote unquote “Manosphere” helped Trump win the election by like, connecting with young men and how he’d gone on all of these like Manosphere-y podcasts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Logan Paul’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Biden is just so bad. He’s the worst president in the history of our country. You should make a diss track on him. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Logan Paul’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Biden is just so bad. He’s the worst president in the history of our country. You should make a diss track on him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Theo Von’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Is cocaine a stronger, uh, up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie, you know what I’m saying? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Theo Von’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Is cocaine a stronger, uh, up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie, you know what I’m saying? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Adin Ross’s stream from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Well, today is going to be the most important stream I’ve ever done. Right in the living room of Mar-a-Lago. And we’ll have a little fun today. Let’s do it. My son Barron says hello, but he’s a big fan of yours. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Adin Ross’s stream from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Well, today is going to be the most important stream I’ve ever done. Right in the living room of Mar-a-Lago. And we’ll have a little fun today. Let’s do it. My son Barron says hello, but he’s a big fan of yours. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of them, they’ll have interviewed or endorsed Trump, but they won’t call themselves political. It’s because they draw in and radicalize so many young men precisely by presenting as apolitical, where first, young men might be drawn to their content that’s dating advice, or stuff about MMA fighting, or any number of things that aren’t inherently political, but then just because of how algorithms work, or as you continue to watch their videos or content — eventually they just start saying pretty misogynistic or racist things. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of them, they’ll have interviewed or endorsed Trump, but they won’t call themselves political. It’s because they draw in and radicalize so many young men precisely by presenting as apolitical, where first, young men might be drawn to their content that’s dating advice, or stuff about MMA fighting, or any number of things that aren’t inherently political, but then just because of how algorithms work, or as you continue to watch their videos or content — eventually they just start saying pretty misogynistic or racist things. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is an alt-right ideology known as the red pill: the belief that men are disadvantaged in modern society — and that it’s feminism’s fault. Taking the red pill is a nod to this scene in The Matrix — when Neo learns that his entire life is a simulation. Morpheus offers him a choice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is an alt-right ideology known as the red pill: the belief that men are disadvantaged in modern society — and that it’s feminism’s fault. Taking the red pill is a nod to this scene in The Matrix — when Neo learns that his entire life is a simulation. Morpheus offers him a choice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of The Matrix from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of The Matrix from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Incels and self-described “men’s rights activists” have used the metaphor of the red pill to describe “waking up” to their victimhood and resisting “progressive” notions like… women having any agency at all. The manosphere calls for a return to the patriarchal glory of the past. Today, red-pilling is used to describe the way people are radicalized into far-right ideology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Incels and self-described “men’s rights activists” have used the metaphor of the red pill to describe “waking up” to their victimhood and resisting “progressive” notions like… women having any agency at all. The manosphere calls for a return to the patriarchal glory of the past. Today, red-pilling is used to describe the way people are radicalized into far-right ideology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Manosphere content can be wildly misogynistic — but the way young men fall into these online circles is through lifestyle content that appears apolitical: weightlifting, dating advice, style tips. The pink pill pipeline is the other side of this coin. The phrase was coined by journalist Lois Shearing. Her 2025 book, “Pink-pilled,” examines how women are lured into far-right ideology. Just like with red-pilling, pink-pilling also starts with seemingly apolitical lifestyle content. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Manosphere content can be wildly misogynistic — but the way young men fall into these online circles is through lifestyle content that appears apolitical: weightlifting, dating advice, style tips. The pink pill pipeline is the other side of this coin. The phrase was coined by journalist Lois Shearing. Her 2025 book, “Pink-pilled,” examines how women are lured into far-right ideology. Just like with red-pilling, pink-pilling also starts with seemingly apolitical lifestyle content. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of these creators or influencers will not overtly identify as Republican agents. They will, in fact, probably reel in young women through content or short-form videos where they talk about celebrity gossip, or maybe they’ll talk about health advice, and eventually get to disparaging and pushing misinformation about birth control. If you’re a young woman and you hate your job, they might give you advice about how to start dating like, a rich man and how you can achieve something akin to like a tradwife lifestyle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of these creators or influencers will not overtly identify as Republican agents. They will, in fact, probably reel in young women through content or short-form videos where they talk about celebrity gossip, or maybe they’ll talk about health advice, and eventually get to disparaging and pushing misinformation about birth control. If you’re a young woman and you hate your job, they might give you advice about how to start dating like, a rich man and how you can achieve something akin to like a tradwife lifestyle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We talked about tradwives in our episode on Mormon momfluencers. They’re women who’ve rejected a modern career path and rely on their husbands to be the breadwinners. Tradwives are supposed to manage the household, do all the chores, take care of the kids, and lead their family’s return to traditional gender roles. Hence, tradwife. Tradwife content was pretty trendy for a while. Videos of baking bread from scratch, homeschooling children, and performing motherhood. But, as it turns out, being a stay-at-home mom, taking care of an entire family on a single income, is not glamorous — it’s hard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We talked about tradwives in our episode on Mormon momfluencers. They’re women who’ve rejected a modern career path and rely on their husbands to be the breadwinners. Tradwives are supposed to manage the household, do all the chores, take care of the kids, and lead their family’s return to traditional gender roles. Hence, tradwife. Tradwife content was pretty trendy for a while. Videos of baking bread from scratch, homeschooling children, and performing motherhood. But, as it turns out, being a stay-at-home mom, taking care of an entire family on a single income, is not glamorous — it’s hard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As more horror stories have emerged about the economic precarity of this reality, the tradwife lifestyle has started to lose its appeal. In fact, the most prominent pink pill figures have shifted their messaging away from promoting the tradwife lifestyle — because they know it’s unpopular. Like Emma Waters. She’s a researcher for the Heritage Foundation, the far-right think tank behind Project 2025. Emma Waters has been promoting a middle ground between tradwives and girlboss feminists. But still promoting motherhood above all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As more horror stories have emerged about the economic precarity of this reality, the tradwife lifestyle has started to lose its appeal. In fact, the most prominent pink pill figures have shifted their messaging away from promoting the tradwife lifestyle — because they know it’s unpopular. Like Emma Waters. She’s a researcher for the Heritage Foundation, the far-right think tank behind Project 2025. Emma Waters has been promoting a middle ground between tradwives and girlboss feminists. But still promoting motherhood above all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emma Waters for Fox News from TikTok]: \u003c/strong>How can we structure what career success and the career trajectory of mothers looks like first, and then build in our career and education to complement that? So maybe women won’t work full-time. About 60% of women say that they would actually prefer to be a homemaker. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emma Waters for Fox News from TikTok]: \u003c/strong>How can we structure what career success and the career trajectory of mothers looks like first, and then build in our career and education to complement that? So maybe women won’t work full-time. About 60% of women say that they would actually prefer to be a homemaker. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that kind of rhetoric is still divisive. It’s certainly not the soft on-ramp to conservative ideology that lifestyle content is. Celebrity news, for one, is a much more palatable entry point. Take Candace Owens, the far-right political commentator, podcaster, and conspiracy theorist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that kind of rhetoric is still divisive. It’s certainly not the soft on-ramp to conservative ideology that lifestyle content is. Celebrity news, for one, is a much more palatable entry point. Take Candace Owens, the far-right political commentator, podcaster, and conspiracy theorist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason why Candace Owens has her own news platform that’s dedicated to celebrity news when she is like, a politics person. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason why Candace Owens has her own news platform that’s dedicated to celebrity news when she is like, a politics person. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Candace Owens from TikTok] \u003c/strong>Personally, I’m starting to wonder if Cynthia is about to steal Ariana from Ethan Slater, which would be some great justice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Candace Owens from TikTok] \u003c/strong>Personally, I’m starting to wonder if Cynthia is about to steal Ariana from Ethan Slater, which would be some great justice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Where you can reel someone in with your cultural takes and eventually build like, this cultural consensus to like a right-wing agenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Where you can reel someone in with your cultural takes and eventually build like, this cultural consensus to like a right-wing agenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pink pill pipeline often starts with dating advice. It’s very aspirational. Other young women showing off their luxurious lifestyles paid for by their boyfriends or husbands. You’ll hear buzzwords like “soft life” and “feminine energy” and “princess treatment.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pink pill pipeline often starts with dating advice. It’s very aspirational. Other young women showing off their luxurious lifestyles paid for by their boyfriends or husbands. You’ll hear buzzwords like “soft life” and “feminine energy” and “princess treatment.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Earth Angel Ariana]: \u003c/strong>I used to be a tomboy and play basketball, tackle football, and now I just feel like a princess wifey. I just feel like life is so soft and feminine, like men do everything for me. My boyfriend gives me princess treatment all the time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Earth Angel Ariana]: \u003c/strong>I used to be a tomboy and play basketball, tackle football, and now I just feel like a princess wifey. I just feel like life is so soft and feminine, like men do everything for me. My boyfriend gives me princess treatment all the time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Laila Hakim]:\u003c/strong> Your man should wanna not only take care of you, but those around you, too. And he’s gonna do without hesitation. That man gets up so fucking fast, like, you won’t even be able to blink before he’s up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Laila Hakim]:\u003c/strong> Your man should wanna not only take care of you, but those around you, too. And he’s gonna do without hesitation. That man gets up so fucking fast, like, you won’t even be able to blink before he’s up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Andele Lara]:\u003c/strong> Girl, I’m in Chicago with my man, and I didn’t book a flight, hotel, or schedule anything. Because a real provider is always going to make time for you. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Andele Lara]:\u003c/strong> Girl, I’m in Chicago with my man, and I didn’t book a flight, hotel, or schedule anything. Because a real provider is always going to make time for you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you’re a young woman, who’s been grinding in your career and still struggling to make ends meet — much less afford any of these luxuries — and on top of that, dating sucks… then this kind of content is alluring. It’s very easy to get sucked in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you’re a young woman, who’s been grinding in your career and still struggling to make ends meet — much less afford any of these luxuries — and on top of that, dating sucks… then this kind of content is alluring. It’s very easy to get sucked in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that the success of these different buzzwords and seemingly apolitical trends is that, you know, they spring from these very specific and very real frustrations. A lot of us were just like, set up to be screwed over by the economy as it exists. And I think that in traditional American politics, you hear all the time about frustrated working class men. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that the success of these different buzzwords and seemingly apolitical trends is that, you know, they spring from these very specific and very real frustrations. A lot of us were just like, set up to be screwed over by the economy as it exists. And I think that in traditional American politics, you hear all the time about frustrated working class men. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then, I think there is a lot of frustration among the demographic of young women who are also just very exploited as workers and really getting the short end of the stick economically. So that tends to then be catered to in a different way of this content that’s geared toward like, “You could have an amazing life if you just quit your terrible job. Um, your job mistreats and exploits you and all of this is exploitation. And it would actually be empowering if you just quit and married someone and had kids and took care of your kids.” And like, there is a real appeal there. If you hate your job, or if you’re struggling and you’re frustrated in that way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then, I think there is a lot of frustration among the demographic of young women who are also just very exploited as workers and really getting the short end of the stick economically. So that tends to then be catered to in a different way of this content that’s geared toward like, “You could have an amazing life if you just quit your terrible job. Um, your job mistreats and exploits you and all of this is exploitation. And it would actually be empowering if you just quit and married someone and had kids and took care of your kids.” And like, there is a real appeal there. If you hate your job, or if you’re struggling and you’re frustrated in that way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The word “empowering” is used a lot in pink pill content. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The word “empowering” is used a lot in pink pill content. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>A lot of these female lifestyle influencers who might not present as anti-feminist, they really will like, couch their specific choices in this performatively feminist language. You could even just see this with something slightly unrelated, but also very related of like vaccine skepticism. It’s like so couched in like, my body, my choice language. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>A lot of these female lifestyle influencers who might not present as anti-feminist, they really will like, couch their specific choices in this performatively feminist language. You could even just see this with something slightly unrelated, but also very related of like vaccine skepticism. It’s like so couched in like, my body, my choice language. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On its face, aspirational dating content doesn’t seem to be anti-feminist or regressive, especially when compared to the overt tradwife videos. But it also opens the door for a quieter, more insidious erosion of women’s agency and relationships. There is this Mormon influencer, Courtney Palmer, who went mega-viral last year for her videos on how to get the “princess treatment.” She talks about how her husband always opens the door for her, and how she rarely ties her own shoes because her husband will do it for her. And how do you secure the so-called provider? Well, Courtney has some advice: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On its face, aspirational dating content doesn’t seem to be anti-feminist or regressive, especially when compared to the overt tradwife videos. But it also opens the door for a quieter, more insidious erosion of women’s agency and relationships. There is this Mormon influencer, Courtney Palmer, who went mega-viral last year for her videos on how to get the “princess treatment.” She talks about how her husband always opens the door for her, and how she rarely ties her own shoes because her husband will do it for her. And how do you secure the so-called provider? Well, Courtney has some advice: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>I’m at a restaurant with my husband, I do not talk to the hostess, I do not open any doors, and I do not order my own food. You’re just letting your husband lead and be masculine. He made the reservation, let him do the logistics, you’re just being a princess. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>I’m at a restaurant with my husband, I do not talk to the hostess, I do not open any doors, and I do not order my own food. You’re just letting your husband lead and be masculine. He made the reservation, let him do the logistics, you’re just being a princess. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This messaging is particularly effective on young women, because it’s coming from their peers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This messaging is particularly effective on young women, because it’s coming from their peers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>They’re not like, Ted Cruz. They’re not like, you know, these Republican politicians. They’re, like, female lifestyle influencers, they’re young women. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>They’re not like, Ted Cruz. They’re not like, you know, these Republican politicians. They’re, like, female lifestyle influencers, they’re young women. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>If the waiter addresses you first, I will simply just look at my husband and my husband will order. You don’t need to over speak, over exert yourself. You can be feminine and soft and quiet. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>If the waiter addresses you first, I will simply just look at my husband and my husband will order. You don’t need to over speak, over exert yourself. You can be feminine and soft and quiet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So to recap, here’s how the pink pill pipeline works: you’re a woman in your 20s — you might stumble across a post on Instagram about why Zendaya wants to be a mother. Celebrity news and pop culture is eye-catching. You follow the account. Then, you go on TikTok and see a video from a woman whose life seems so much easier and so much more luxurious than yours. Her fiance pays for everything. She doesn’t have to lift a finger. Who wouldn’t want that? You’re trying to be more active, so you go on YouTube and look up instructional videos for pilates at home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So to recap, here’s how the pink pill pipeline works: you’re a woman in your 20s — you might stumble across a post on Instagram about why Zendaya wants to be a mother. Celebrity news and pop culture is eye-catching. You follow the account. Then, you go on TikTok and see a video from a woman whose life seems so much easier and so much more luxurious than yours. Her fiance pays for everything. She doesn’t have to lift a finger. Who wouldn’t want that? You’re trying to be more active, so you go on YouTube and look up instructional videos for pilates at home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, your social media algorithms start feeding you more content — based on what you’ve already engaged with. More about the soft life. More tips for finding a provider boyfriend. YouTube shorts about the values of young motherhood. Instagram reels about holistic health, and clean living, and detoxifying your diet — which will make you hotter and increase your chances of finding a provider boyfriend. TikToks about why your birth control might be making you sick. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Then, your social media algorithms start feeding you more content — based on what you’ve already engaged with. More about the soft life. More tips for finding a provider boyfriend. YouTube shorts about the values of young motherhood. Instagram reels about holistic health, and clean living, and detoxifying your diet — which will make you hotter and increase your chances of finding a provider boyfriend. TikToks about why your birth control might be making you sick. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There are people who aren’t kind of traditionally associated with going after reproductive rights or going after women’s rights. It looks a lot more organic if they’re just seemingly naturally talking about the connections between like, birth control causing infertility, which is not true and is not backed up by anything. And that’s supposedly meaning, giving way to like, the quote unquote, like, “IVF industry” of like, of now that so many women lost their fertility from using birth control, they now need IVF. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There are people who aren’t kind of traditionally associated with going after reproductive rights or going after women’s rights. It looks a lot more organic if they’re just seemingly naturally talking about the connections between like, birth control causing infertility, which is not true and is not backed up by anything. And that’s supposedly meaning, giving way to like, the quote unquote, like, “IVF industry” of like, of now that so many women lost their fertility from using birth control, they now need IVF. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Wait, what? Once you’re sucked into the pink pill pipeline, this conspiracy is everywhere. We’re going to get into that in a new tab — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay. After the break, the link between the pink pill, misinformation, and the war on birth control. Stick around. Let’s open a new tab: does birth control make you infertile? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Wait, what? Once you’re sucked into the pink pill pipeline, this conspiracy is everywhere. We’re going to get into that in a new tab — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay. After the break, the link between the pink pill, misinformation, and the war on birth control. Stick around. Let’s open a new tab: does birth control make you infertile? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Ugh, I mean no, there’s just like, no… evidence of this whatsoever. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Ugh, I mean no, there’s just like, no… evidence of this whatsoever. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On the internet, there’s this pervasive conspiracy theory that long-term hormonal birth control use leads to infertility, which is somehow funding the modern IVF industry. Like Kylie said, there is zero clinical evidence of this. This is a pretty extreme conspiracy theory, but anti-birth control content is on the rise. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On the internet, there’s this pervasive conspiracy theory that long-term hormonal birth control use leads to infertility, which is somehow funding the modern IVF industry. Like Kylie said, there is zero clinical evidence of this. This is a pretty extreme conspiracy theory, but anti-birth control content is on the rise. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A 2025 study, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, analyzed 100 of the top TikTok videos related to contraception, between August and September 2023. The videos had a collective 4.85 billion views — they were brimming with misinformation about hormonal birth control. Over half of the videos explicitly rejected hormonal birth control, and over a third of the videos recommended natural cycle tracking, without disclosing the limits of it. Only 10% of the videos were created by medical professionals. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A 2025 study, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, analyzed 100 of the top TikTok videos related to contraception, between August and September 2023. The videos had a collective 4.85 billion views — they were brimming with misinformation about hormonal birth control. Over half of the videos explicitly rejected hormonal birth control, and over a third of the videos recommended natural cycle tracking, without disclosing the limits of it. Only 10% of the videos were created by medical professionals. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This stuff is everywhere online. Here’s what the conversation around birth control looks like right now — and this is on mainstream social media. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This stuff is everywhere online. Here’s what the conversation around birth control looks like right now — and this is on mainstream social media. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Casiah West]: \u003c/strong>Your gynecologist isn’t really telling you how bad birth control is. What’s ironic is, the leading cause of death in women is heart disease. Is it that women are dying from heart disease because of birth control? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Casiah West]: \u003c/strong>Your gynecologist isn’t really telling you how bad birth control is. What’s ironic is, the leading cause of death in women is heart disease. Is it that women are dying from heart disease because of birth control? \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user The Workout Witch]:\u003c/strong> Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your body, specifically for your body’s biological stress response. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user The Workout Witch]:\u003c/strong> Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your body, specifically for your body’s biological stress response. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Whatever Pod from TikTok]:\u003c/strong> If you actually look at the birth control usage rates and divorce rates, they actually perfectly coincide with like a three-year delay. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Whatever Pod from TikTok]:\u003c/strong> If you actually look at the birth control usage rates and divorce rates, they actually perfectly coincide with like a three-year delay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Jay Shetty]:\u003c/strong> So we’re changing the hormone balance in women in a way that may not be completely reversible. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Jay Shetty]:\u003c/strong> So we’re changing the hormone balance in women in a way that may not be completely reversible. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]:\u003c/strong> Girls that I know who had like the implant in their arm or who have been on the pill for over 10 years cannot get pregnant. Almost like that was the entire point and plan in the first place. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]:\u003c/strong> Girls that I know who had like the implant in their arm or who have been on the pill for over 10 years cannot get pregnant. Almost like that was the entire point and plan in the first place. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>These sensational claims flatten a reality that is complex and nuanced. It’s true that people have wildly different experiences with birth control. Many women have been dismissed, mistreated, and discriminated against by the medical system. Medical misogyny is real, and the history of birth control is steeped in it. The pill was tested on Puerto Rican women, and doctors did dismiss reports of side effects as “psychosomatic.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>These sensational claims flatten a reality that is complex and nuanced. It’s true that people have wildly different experiences with birth control. Many women have been dismissed, mistreated, and discriminated against by the medical system. Medical misogyny is real, and the history of birth control is steeped in it. The pill was tested on Puerto Rican women, and doctors did dismiss reports of side effects as “psychosomatic.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, a lot of women are still not offered adequate pain management for IUD insertions. There’s no “one-size-fits-all” birth control option, so figuring out what actually works for your body can take a bit of trial and error, which can be especially discouraging when your doctors aren’t listening. I, myself, have had mixed experiences with birth control. Kylie has too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today, a lot of women are still not offered adequate pain management for IUD insertions. There’s no “one-size-fits-all” birth control option, so figuring out what actually works for your body can take a bit of trial and error, which can be especially discouraging when your doctors aren’t listening. I, myself, have had mixed experiences with birth control. Kylie has too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that you’d be hard-pressed to talk to any woman or any person who uses or has used at different points hormonal birth control, and hear that they had an absolutely flawless, perfect, pain-free experience. Their bodies might not react that well to like, hormonal-birth control pills or any number of different methods. And I think that that is all incredibly valid and can’t be, you know, pushed under the rug. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that you’d be hard-pressed to talk to any woman or any person who uses or has used at different points hormonal birth control, and hear that they had an absolutely flawless, perfect, pain-free experience. Their bodies might not react that well to like, hormonal-birth control pills or any number of different methods. And I think that that is all incredibly valid and can’t be, you know, pushed under the rug. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think there are just a lot of… difficult realities with our healthcare system, how our medical system treats the experiences and bodies of women or people who use birth control. I think that what you’ll kind of see on social media are kind of these narratives that really tend to flatten that, or just capitalize on the fact that we have these negative experiences to push these different messages about the safety, or effectiveness of birth control, even though… you know, medically speaking, birth control is very safe and very effective. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think there are just a lot of… difficult realities with our healthcare system, how our medical system treats the experiences and bodies of women or people who use birth control. I think that what you’ll kind of see on social media are kind of these narratives that really tend to flatten that, or just capitalize on the fact that we have these negative experiences to push these different messages about the safety, or effectiveness of birth control, even though… you know, medically speaking, birth control is very safe and very effective. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s just that we, as different people with different bodies will have different experiences with it. But I think that, you know, that there’s no room for that kind of nuance in like the kinds of social media posts, and what ends up happening is that like, a lot of storytelling can be taken out of context and then fed into like this right-wing political agenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s just that we, as different people with different bodies will have different experiences with it. But I think that, you know, that there’s no room for that kind of nuance in like the kinds of social media posts, and what ends up happening is that like, a lot of storytelling can be taken out of context and then fed into like this right-wing political agenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The existing negative experiences that many people have had with reproductive health care means that the cultural discourse is primed to be co-opted by far-right political movements. Like pink-pill dating advice, there are certain buzzwords that raise red flags for Kylie — especially words like “natural” and “cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The existing negative experiences that many people have had with reproductive health care means that the cultural discourse is primed to be co-opted by far-right political movements. Like pink-pill dating advice, there are certain buzzwords that raise red flags for Kylie — especially words like “natural” and “cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Cycle tracking is a perfectly valid form of contraception. Lots of people can’t take hormonal birth control for health reasons and have successfully relied on cycle tracking. But when influencers disparage other forms of contraception and insist on the “natural element” without disclosing that it’s one of the least effective forms of birth control? Red flags. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Cycle tracking is a perfectly valid form of contraception. Lots of people can’t take hormonal birth control for health reasons and have successfully relied on cycle tracking. But when influencers disparage other forms of contraception and insist on the “natural element” without disclosing that it’s one of the least effective forms of birth control? Red flags. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>What we have is this very, very regressive agenda, but really packaged in kind of this feminist way. And like, if you really, if you like, squint or if you aren’t that educated in these issues yourself, like, sure, it might even sound like it makes sense. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>What we have is this very, very regressive agenda, but really packaged in kind of this feminist way. And like, if you really, if you like, squint or if you aren’t that educated in these issues yourself, like, sure, it might even sound like it makes sense. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s only in the last few years that anti-birth control sentiments have gained so much momentum. We need to talk about when this uptick started. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s only in the last few years that anti-birth control sentiments have gained so much momentum. We need to talk about when this uptick started. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I really started noticing and reporting on it specifically around like, 2022, which coincidentally, you know, was the year that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I really started noticing and reporting on it specifically around like, 2022, which coincidentally, you know, was the year that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With Roe v. Wade overturned, many far-right religious groups and anti-abortion organizations have a new mission: to make birth control the new abortion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With Roe v. Wade overturned, many far-right religious groups and anti-abortion organizations have a new mission: to make birth control the new abortion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dasha Burns for NBC News from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>In the months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Maggie Olivia went to the pharmacy to pick up her birth control prescription. The pharmacists denied her prescription because they were unsure if it was legal, which it was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dasha Burns for NBC News from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>In the months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Maggie Olivia went to the pharmacy to pick up her birth control prescription. The pharmacists denied her prescription because they were unsure if it was legal, which it was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s open one more tab: the war on birth control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s open one more tab: the war on birth control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Make America Healthy Again — this is the Trump administration’s health initiative, spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., U.S. Health Secretary and notorious anti-vaxxer. The “MAHA” movement is fueled by skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. Practices and medications under scrutiny include: childhood vaccine schedules, Tylenol during pregnancy, antidepressants, ADHD drugs. And now, hormonal birth control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Make America Healthy Again — this is the Trump administration’s health initiative, spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., U.S. Health Secretary and notorious anti-vaxxer. The “MAHA” movement is fueled by skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. Practices and medications under scrutiny include: childhood vaccine schedules, Tylenol during pregnancy, antidepressants, ADHD drugs. And now, hormonal birth control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Amna Nawaz for PBS News Hour]: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Trump administration scrubbed CDC guidance on birth control from government websites and froze $65 million in funding to family planning clinics that provide free or low-cost contraception. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Amna Nawaz for PBS News Hour]: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Trump administration scrubbed CDC guidance on birth control from government websites and froze $65 million in funding to family planning clinics that provide free or low-cost contraception. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Department of Health and Human Services just overhauled Title X (ten). This is a federal grant program originally designed to help low-income Americans access birth control and other reproductive health care. Kylie said this program has always had bipartisan support, going all the way back to when Nixon signed it into law, over 50 years ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Department of Health and Human Services just overhauled Title X (ten). This is a federal grant program originally designed to help low-income Americans access birth control and other reproductive health care. Kylie said this program has always had bipartisan support, going all the way back to when Nixon signed it into law, over 50 years ago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now, according to a funding notice published at the beginning of July, grants funded through the program will, quote, “build body literacy, address infertility, plan and space pregnancies, and navigate reproductive health conditions such as endometriosis.” Contraception is not mentioned, except in a section about “over-medicalization.” Clinics that receive Title X (ten) funding are instructed to promote fertility awareness-based methods — like, natural cycle tracking. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But now, according to a funding notice published at the beginning of July, grants funded through the program will, quote, “build body literacy, address infertility, plan and space pregnancies, and navigate reproductive health conditions such as endometriosis.” Contraception is not mentioned, except in a section about “over-medicalization.” Clinics that receive Title X (ten) funding are instructed to promote fertility awareness-based methods — like, natural cycle tracking. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Some really concerning things have been like, the State Department equating certain forms of birth control and labeling them as abortifacient — and we’ve seen that a couple of times coming directly from this administration, and the goal then being to ban certain birth control or birth control more broadly, in the same way that abortion is banned. We’ve also seen the defunding of Planned Parenthood where like, what the language of that is is to suggest that reproductive healthcare and like, the provision of contraceptives and such isn’t actually health care — is kind of like the language. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Some really concerning things have been like, the State Department equating certain forms of birth control and labeling them as abortifacient — and we’ve seen that a couple of times coming directly from this administration, and the goal then being to ban certain birth control or birth control more broadly, in the same way that abortion is banned. We’ve also seen the defunding of Planned Parenthood where like, what the language of that is is to suggest that reproductive healthcare and like, the provision of contraceptives and such isn’t actually health care — is kind of like the language. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Conservatives were not always this critical of birth control. In fact, many were pro-birth control. Back in 2015, Republicans actually introduced a bill to make it even more accessible — by incentivizing drug companies to sell over-the-counter birth control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there just has been this very sharp right-wing cultural pivot where a lot of this deeply pro-natalist language of human civilization and white Western society is in serious trouble if we don’t have a lot more babies really quick, like a lot of the Elon Musk rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there just has been this very sharp right-wing cultural pivot where a lot of this deeply pro-natalist language of human civilization and white Western society is in serious trouble if we don’t have a lot more babies really quick, like a lot of the Elon Musk rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Pro-natalism is an ideology that pushes for higher birth rates to combat the supposed “decline of civilization.” Anything that causes people to have more babies is on the table. Can you explain the link between this pro-natalist fear-mongering around falling birth rates and then white supremacist conspiracy theories? What is the great replacement theory that everyone’s freaking out about? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Pro-natalism is an ideology that pushes for higher birth rates to combat the supposed “decline of civilization.” Anything that causes people to have more babies is on the table. Can you explain the link between this pro-natalist fear-mongering around falling birth rates and then white supremacist conspiracy theories? What is the great replacement theory that everyone’s freaking out about? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there is just this inherent link between, you know, panics about the birth rate and racial panics, even though obviously, you know sometimes it’ll be couched in this race-neutral language of just like the human race and declining birth rates there, or the fact that like abortion bans or denying people birth control access will affect people of all races and people of all races might then be forced to like move forward with a pregnancy they don’t want or whatnot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there is just this inherent link between, you know, panics about the birth rate and racial panics, even though obviously, you know sometimes it’ll be couched in this race-neutral language of just like the human race and declining birth rates there, or the fact that like abortion bans or denying people birth control access will affect people of all races and people of all races might then be forced to like move forward with a pregnancy they don’t want or whatnot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>It’s impossible to separate this panic from its racist roots. It started with fears of declining birth rates among white women. Kylie said the decline isn’t statistically significant. Experts say it’s likely due to declining teen pregnancy rates. But some extremists on the right claim that birth control is used to suppress white birth rates, in an attempt to replace white Americans as the racial majority. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>It’s impossible to separate this panic from its racist roots. It started with fears of declining birth rates among white women. Kylie said the decline isn’t statistically significant. Experts say it’s likely due to declining teen pregnancy rates. But some extremists on the right claim that birth control is used to suppress white birth rates, in an attempt to replace white Americans as the racial majority. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There is just this deep tie between pronatalism and white nationalism in that way, just specifically because of how much white nationalism has like embraced pronatalism for its agenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There is just this deep tie between pronatalism and white nationalism in that way, just specifically because of how much white nationalism has like embraced pronatalism for its agenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In 2022, just months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, UC Berkeley, Mother Jones, and Reveal teamed up for a massive reporting project. They uncovered a years-long social media campaign from anti-abortion groups — to capitalize on wellness trends, promote cycle tracking, and sow distrust in hormonal birth control. Conservative influencers have continued to push birth control skepticism online— often citing outdated or inconclusive research studies to back up their claims. Birth control misinformation continues to thrive on social media. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In 2022, just months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, UC Berkeley, Mother Jones, and Reveal teamed up for a massive reporting project. They uncovered a years-long social media campaign from anti-abortion groups — to capitalize on wellness trends, promote cycle tracking, and sow distrust in hormonal birth control. Conservative influencers have continued to push birth control skepticism online— often citing outdated or inconclusive research studies to back up their claims. Birth control misinformation continues to thrive on social media. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]: \u003c/strong>Does anybody else find it just a teensy bit coincidental that they pushed birth control on Millennial and Gen Z teenagers so heavily and so early? And now, look at how booming IVF is? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]: \u003c/strong>Does anybody else find it just a teensy bit coincidental that they pushed birth control on Millennial and Gen Z teenagers so heavily and so early? And now, look at how booming IVF is? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That video has nearly identical wording to countless others. This year, political analyst Emily Amick published a three-part Substack series on the influencer campaign against birth control. She found dozens of Instagram posts from various lifestyle influencers that all had the same caption. They all said, and I quote, “I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the birth control pill was given out like candy to every female millennial at age 15. And now IVF is a $50 billion industry.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That video has nearly identical wording to countless others. This year, political analyst Emily Amick published a three-part Substack series on the influencer campaign against birth control. She found dozens of Instagram posts from various lifestyle influencers that all had the same caption. They all said, and I quote, “I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the birth control pill was given out like candy to every female millennial at age 15. And now IVF is a $50 billion industry.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Abortion is very politically popular, and so I think even now it’s very interesting that you’ll see the Trump administration has refrained from taking certain moves to directly go after abortion, but has taken all of these many different moves to go after birth control and family planning. And I’ve read certain legal experts suspect as well, is that birth control in some ways is more vulnerable — because it’s increasingly less popular because of how much misinformation there is about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Abortion is very politically popular, and so I think even now it’s very interesting that you’ll see the Trump administration has refrained from taking certain moves to directly go after abortion, but has taken all of these many different moves to go after birth control and family planning. And I’ve read certain legal experts suspect as well, is that birth control in some ways is more vulnerable — because it’s increasingly less popular because of how much misinformation there is about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Over the last four years, there have been anecdotal reports of young women who’ve discontinued hormonal birth control because of what they see online. This is backed up by a 2024 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation. 49% of women between 18 and 25 have been served content about birth control on social media. 14% said they made a change to their birth control method or considered a change because of something they heard online. Kylie said, it’ll be decades until we understand the long-term effects of the online campaign against birth control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Over the last four years, there have been anecdotal reports of young women who’ve discontinued hormonal birth control because of what they see online. This is backed up by a 2024 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation. 49% of women between 18 and 25 have been served content about birth control on social media. 14% said they made a change to their birth control method or considered a change because of something they heard online. Kylie said, it’ll be decades until we understand the long-term effects of the online campaign against birth control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s easy to dismiss lifestyle content as frivolous and inconsequential. You might see a TikTok from a woman who brags about how her boyfriend pays all of their bills, and think… “It’s not that deep.” You might come across an influencer who questions the safety of IUDs and promotes natural cycle tracking — and it’s tempting to think… “That’s just her choice!” But the pink pill pipeline is real. Content targeted at women is rapidly becoming a vehicle for extremist ideology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s easy to dismiss lifestyle content as frivolous and inconsequential. You might see a TikTok from a woman who brags about how her boyfriend pays all of their bills, and think… “It’s not that deep.” You might come across an influencer who questions the safety of IUDs and promotes natural cycle tracking — and it’s tempting to think… “That’s just her choice!” But the pink pill pipeline is real. Content targeted at women is rapidly becoming a vehicle for extremist ideology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since Trump’s re-election, concerns about the manosphere have dominated the political conversation. For all of the hand-wringing about bro-y podcasts radicalizing young men, there’s very little discussion about the young women buying into their own oppression. Content aimed at girls is just not taken seriously. That’s part of what makes the pink pill pipeline so effective. It’s the lack of awareness. There’s a political undercurrent to all of these girlish lifestyle videos, but it’s very easy to miss if you’re not already looking for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since Trump’s re-election, concerns about the manosphere have dominated the political conversation. For all of the hand-wringing about bro-y podcasts radicalizing young men, there’s very little discussion about the young women buying into their own oppression. Content aimed at girls is just not taken seriously. That’s part of what makes the pink pill pipeline so effective. It’s the lack of awareness. There’s a political undercurrent to all of these girlish lifestyle videos, but it’s very easy to miss if you’re not already looking for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now, you know what to look for. Before you like a video, or follow an influencer, it’s worth taking a moment to really consider the agenda behind this content. Are they sharing a personal experience with one specific type of birth control? Or are they insisting that all birth control is bad — and that only the method they recommend is natural and healthy? Sure, the romantic date night content is cute, but… is the person posting it also telling you that you need to make yourself quiet and submissive if you want to find a man who’ll pick up the check? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But now, you know what to look for. Before you like a video, or follow an influencer, it’s worth taking a moment to really consider the agenda behind this content. Are they sharing a personal experience with one specific type of birth control? Or are they insisting that all birth control is bad — and that only the method they recommend is natural and healthy? Sure, the romantic date night content is cute, but… is the person posting it also telling you that you need to make yourself quiet and submissive if you want to find a man who’ll pick up the check? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The point is, you don’t have to engage with this content. But, if it comes across your feed, you should be ready to see it for what it is — and then you can keep scrolling. That’s it for our deep dive — but as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to go further down this rabbit hole, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. Until next week, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The point is, you don’t have to engage with this content. But, if it comes across your feed, you should be ready to see it for what it is — and then you can keep scrolling. That’s it for our deep dive — but as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to go further down this rabbit hole, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. Until next week, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips and archive tape from Impaulsive, This Past Weekend with Theo Von, Adin Ross, The Matrix, Fox News, NBC News, PBS Newshour, and TikTok creators @earthangelariana, @ulovelailahakim, @theandelelara, Courtney Palmer, @casiahwest, @theworkoutwitch, @whateverpod, @jayshetty, and @prettypolitics101. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips and archive tape from Impaulsive, This Past Weekend with Theo Von, Adin Ross, The Matrix, Fox News, NBC News, PBS Newshour, and TikTok creators @earthangelariana, @ulovelailahakim, @theandelelara, Courtney Palmer, @casiahwest, @theworkoutwitch, @whateverpod, @jayshetty, and @prettypolitics101. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Yeah! Oh my God, now that I’m remembering it, I mean like in 2022, there was just like a viral moment of like a lot of different people theorizing that like, birth control makes you gay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Yeah! Oh my God, now that I’m remembering it, I mean like in 2022, there was just like a viral moment of like a lot of different people theorizing that like, birth control makes you gay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I saw your “birth control makes people a lesbian rumor” piece and I was like, “That’s crazy,” because every lesbian I know says the complete opposite, that they went off the pill and they were like, “I don’t even like men.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I saw your “birth control makes people a lesbian rumor” piece and I was like, “That’s crazy,” because every lesbian I know says the complete opposite, that they went off the pill and they were like, “I don’t even like men.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>So fair, yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>So fair, yeah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It starts with aspirational lifestyle content about “embracing your femininity,” but ends with alt-right ideology and conspiracy theories about reproductive care. This is the pink pill pipeline — one of the primary ways young women are radicalized online today. Seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture leads to increasingly conservative and extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis or how women don’t need to vote. It’s all wrapped up in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Reporter Kylie Cheung joins to discuss how seemingly apolitical content online is shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights through coordinated misinformation campaigns, and how to spot pink pill content for what it is.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5702825517\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://substack.com/@kylietcheung?utm_source=about-page\">Kylie Cheung\u003c/a>, staff reporter at \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/how-celebrity-smear-campaigns-are\">How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control\u003c/a> — Kylie Cheung, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/far-right-birth-control-conspiracy-theories/\">Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block\u003c/a> — Cassie Miller, \u003cem>Southern Poverty Law Center\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/princess-treatment-trend-conservative-pipeline\">We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline\u003c/a> — Jessica Valenti, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://emilyinyourphone.substack.com/p/i-caught-a-secret-right-wing-influence\">I Caught a Secret Right-Wing Influence Operation Running In My Feed\u003c/a> — Emily Amick, \u003cem>Emily In Your Phone\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://revealnews.org/podcast/the-long-campaign-to-turn-birth-control-into-the-new-abortion/\">The Long Campaign to Turn Birth Control Into the New Abortion\u003c/a> — Katharine Mieszkowski, \u003cem>Reveal\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/09/inside-anti-abortion-groups-campaign-to-sell-women-on-unreliable-birth-control-alternatives/\">Inside Anti-Abortion Groups’ Campaign to Sell Women on Unreliable Birth Control “Alternatives”\u003c/a> — Kiera Butler, \u003cem>Mother Jones\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2026/04/25/birth-control-maha-abortion-trump-00889738\">Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. \u003c/a>— Mary Ziegler, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2026/07/10/rfk-jr-pronatalism-birth-control/\">The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement\u003c/a> — Jessica Washington, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hello. Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends! Post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you’re starting arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re a young woman online, you may have seen posts from Evie Magazine. It has a chic millennial pink logo and taglines like “helping women harness their feminine energy.” Its website features glossy, aspirational photo shoots of women modeling gauzy dresses on the Mediterranean coast, women doing yoga in coordinated pastel workout sets, and women riding horseback through arid Southwestern grasslands. They’re paired with articles like, “What the It Girls Are Wearing in Italy This Summer,” and “Is Your Bra Making You Sick?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You probably would not suspect that there’s anything like, quote unquote “political” about this publication at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is Kylie Cheung, the staff reporter for the newsletter, Abortion, Every Day. She’s been covering reproductive health care and women’s rights for years, working at Jezebel and Salon. At first glance, Evie Magazine’s content doesn’t appear that different from the coverage of the publications where Kylie used to work. But push past the surface, and something else emerges. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You might see their presence on, say, Instagram if you like see a post about celebrity news, then you might follow them or you might go back to their website, and then slowly but surely start to see more content that’s really pushing motherhood, young motherhood, like anti-birth control messages. They describe themselves as like a magazine for celebrating true womanhood and femininity, and as we know all of that has increasingly become kind of this right-wing dog whistle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you dig a little deeper into Evie’s website, you’ll find articles on why Love Island actually makes a case against casual sex, how Netflix’s Little House on the Prairie is quote, “The Most Pro-American Show in Years,” and coverage of celebrities who’ve denounced birth control. In fact, Evie publishes at least one anti-birth control article per month, filled with of birth control causing strokes, depression, hormonal chaos, and… bisexuality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>That is such a good one. I remember in like 2022, I was reporting on this influx of TikToks about conspiracy theories that like, my birth control made me gay or this or that. And it’s just like, maybe you were, maybe you’re just gay, which is like, totally cool and everything. And then if something is seen as like unsafe or dangerous that contributes to… a consensus that there should be more restrictions or it should be harder to access, and that is ultimately a right-wing political goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Evie Magazine has been hailed as the “conservative Cosmo.” In addition to the digital and print content, Evie also hosts live events and sells raw milkmaid dresses — a play on the far-right raw milk craze and the cottagecore trend that dominated the early 2020s fashion cycle. Oh, and there’s Evie’s FemTech debut — a period-tracking app funded by Peter Thiel that promises to help women wean off of birth control in favor of “natural cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>If you just say we need to like ban birth control, that isn’t really on its face going to be a popular message, but colluding with kind of this whole “MAHA” and like alternative health scene of pushing for this idea that any amount of like quote unquote “chemicals” and putting this or that in your body, that that is kind of what you might see at a website. Like Evie, that claims to be like an apolitical female lifestyle brand that, you know, isn’t going to overtly say, “We think birth control should be banned,” but is going to kind of push these messages, really questioning and kind of contributing to like, lessening the popularity of birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the pink pill pipeline. This is the way young women are radicalized online — through seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture — which steers them toward influencers who assure them that giving up their career is an empowering choice… and that caring about politics is for the boys, anyway. And soon enough, extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis, or how women don’t need to vote, don’t feel extreme at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that content, of course, is wrapped in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Today, we’re exploring how seemingly apolitical content online is actually shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights — through coordinated misinformation campaigns and aspirational lifestyle posts. And let me tell you, it’s a lot easier to get sucked in than you might think. Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know how this goes. Let’s open our first tab. What is the pink pill pipeline? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think like, end of 2024, when we were seeing all of these conversations come up about how the quote unquote “Manosphere” helped Trump win the election by like, connecting with young men and how he’d gone on all of these like Manosphere-y podcasts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Logan Paul’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Biden is just so bad. He’s the worst president in the history of our country. You should make a diss track on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Theo Von’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Is cocaine a stronger, uh, up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie, you know what I’m saying? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Adin Ross’s stream from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Well, today is going to be the most important stream I’ve ever done. Right in the living room of Mar-a-Lago. And we’ll have a little fun today. Let’s do it. My son Barron says hello, but he’s a big fan of yours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of them, they’ll have interviewed or endorsed Trump, but they won’t call themselves political. It’s because they draw in and radicalize so many young men precisely by presenting as apolitical, where first, young men might be drawn to their content that’s dating advice, or stuff about MMA fighting, or any number of things that aren’t inherently political, but then just because of how algorithms work, or as you continue to watch their videos or content — eventually they just start saying pretty misogynistic or racist things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is an alt-right ideology known as the red pill: the belief that men are disadvantaged in modern society — and that it’s feminism’s fault. Taking the red pill is a nod to this scene in The Matrix — when Neo learns that his entire life is a simulation. Morpheus offers him a choice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of The Matrix from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Incels and self-described “men’s rights activists” have used the metaphor of the red pill to describe “waking up” to their victimhood and resisting “progressive” notions like… women having any agency at all. The manosphere calls for a return to the patriarchal glory of the past. Today, red-pilling is used to describe the way people are radicalized into far-right ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Manosphere content can be wildly misogynistic — but the way young men fall into these online circles is through lifestyle content that appears apolitical: weightlifting, dating advice, style tips. The pink pill pipeline is the other side of this coin. The phrase was coined by journalist Lois Shearing. Her 2025 book, “Pink-pilled,” examines how women are lured into far-right ideology. Just like with red-pilling, pink-pilling also starts with seemingly apolitical lifestyle content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of these creators or influencers will not overtly identify as Republican agents. They will, in fact, probably reel in young women through content or short-form videos where they talk about celebrity gossip, or maybe they’ll talk about health advice, and eventually get to disparaging and pushing misinformation about birth control. If you’re a young woman and you hate your job, they might give you advice about how to start dating like, a rich man and how you can achieve something akin to like a tradwife lifestyle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We talked about tradwives in our episode on Mormon momfluencers. They’re women who’ve rejected a modern career path and rely on their husbands to be the breadwinners. Tradwives are supposed to manage the household, do all the chores, take care of the kids, and lead their family’s return to traditional gender roles. Hence, tradwife. Tradwife content was pretty trendy for a while. Videos of baking bread from scratch, homeschooling children, and performing motherhood. But, as it turns out, being a stay-at-home mom, taking care of an entire family on a single income, is not glamorous — it’s hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As more horror stories have emerged about the economic precarity of this reality, the tradwife lifestyle has started to lose its appeal. In fact, the most prominent pink pill figures have shifted their messaging away from promoting the tradwife lifestyle — because they know it’s unpopular. Like Emma Waters. She’s a researcher for the Heritage Foundation, the far-right think tank behind Project 2025. Emma Waters has been promoting a middle ground between tradwives and girlboss feminists. But still promoting motherhood above all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emma Waters for Fox News from TikTok]: \u003c/strong>How can we structure what career success and the career trajectory of mothers looks like first, and then build in our career and education to complement that? So maybe women won’t work full-time. About 60% of women say that they would actually prefer to be a homemaker. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that kind of rhetoric is still divisive. It’s certainly not the soft on-ramp to conservative ideology that lifestyle content is. Celebrity news, for one, is a much more palatable entry point. Take Candace Owens, the far-right political commentator, podcaster, and conspiracy theorist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason why Candace Owens has her own news platform that’s dedicated to celebrity news when she is like, a politics person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Candace Owens from TikTok] \u003c/strong>Personally, I’m starting to wonder if Cynthia is about to steal Ariana from Ethan Slater, which would be some great justice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Where you can reel someone in with your cultural takes and eventually build like, this cultural consensus to like a right-wing agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pink pill pipeline often starts with dating advice. It’s very aspirational. Other young women showing off their luxurious lifestyles paid for by their boyfriends or husbands. You’ll hear buzzwords like “soft life” and “feminine energy” and “princess treatment.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Earth Angel Ariana]: \u003c/strong>I used to be a tomboy and play basketball, tackle football, and now I just feel like a princess wifey. I just feel like life is so soft and feminine, like men do everything for me. My boyfriend gives me princess treatment all the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Laila Hakim]:\u003c/strong> Your man should wanna not only take care of you, but those around you, too. And he’s gonna do without hesitation. That man gets up so fucking fast, like, you won’t even be able to blink before he’s up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Andele Lara]:\u003c/strong> Girl, I’m in Chicago with my man, and I didn’t book a flight, hotel, or schedule anything. Because a real provider is always going to make time for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you’re a young woman, who’s been grinding in your career and still struggling to make ends meet — much less afford any of these luxuries — and on top of that, dating sucks… then this kind of content is alluring. It’s very easy to get sucked in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that the success of these different buzzwords and seemingly apolitical trends is that, you know, they spring from these very specific and very real frustrations. A lot of us were just like, set up to be screwed over by the economy as it exists. And I think that in traditional American politics, you hear all the time about frustrated working class men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then, I think there is a lot of frustration among the demographic of young women who are also just very exploited as workers and really getting the short end of the stick economically. So that tends to then be catered to in a different way of this content that’s geared toward like, “You could have an amazing life if you just quit your terrible job. Um, your job mistreats and exploits you and all of this is exploitation. And it would actually be empowering if you just quit and married someone and had kids and took care of your kids.” And like, there is a real appeal there. If you hate your job, or if you’re struggling and you’re frustrated in that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The word “empowering” is used a lot in pink pill content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>A lot of these female lifestyle influencers who might not present as anti-feminist, they really will like, couch their specific choices in this performatively feminist language. You could even just see this with something slightly unrelated, but also very related of like vaccine skepticism. It’s like so couched in like, my body, my choice language. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On its face, aspirational dating content doesn’t seem to be anti-feminist or regressive, especially when compared to the overt tradwife videos. But it also opens the door for a quieter, more insidious erosion of women’s agency and relationships. There is this Mormon influencer, Courtney Palmer, who went mega-viral last year for her videos on how to get the “princess treatment.” She talks about how her husband always opens the door for her, and how she rarely ties her own shoes because her husband will do it for her. And how do you secure the so-called provider? Well, Courtney has some advice: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>I’m at a restaurant with my husband, I do not talk to the hostess, I do not open any doors, and I do not order my own food. You’re just letting your husband lead and be masculine. He made the reservation, let him do the logistics, you’re just being a princess. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This messaging is particularly effective on young women, because it’s coming from their peers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>They’re not like, Ted Cruz. They’re not like, you know, these Republican politicians. They’re, like, female lifestyle influencers, they’re young women. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>If the waiter addresses you first, I will simply just look at my husband and my husband will order. You don’t need to over speak, over exert yourself. You can be feminine and soft and quiet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So to recap, here’s how the pink pill pipeline works: you’re a woman in your 20s — you might stumble across a post on Instagram about why Zendaya wants to be a mother. Celebrity news and pop culture is eye-catching. You follow the account. Then, you go on TikTok and see a video from a woman whose life seems so much easier and so much more luxurious than yours. Her fiance pays for everything. She doesn’t have to lift a finger. Who wouldn’t want that? You’re trying to be more active, so you go on YouTube and look up instructional videos for pilates at home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, your social media algorithms start feeding you more content — based on what you’ve already engaged with. More about the soft life. More tips for finding a provider boyfriend. YouTube shorts about the values of young motherhood. Instagram reels about holistic health, and clean living, and detoxifying your diet — which will make you hotter and increase your chances of finding a provider boyfriend. TikToks about why your birth control might be making you sick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There are people who aren’t kind of traditionally associated with going after reproductive rights or going after women’s rights. It looks a lot more organic if they’re just seemingly naturally talking about the connections between like, birth control causing infertility, which is not true and is not backed up by anything. And that’s supposedly meaning, giving way to like, the quote unquote, like, “IVF industry” of like, of now that so many women lost their fertility from using birth control, they now need IVF. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Wait, what? Once you’re sucked into the pink pill pipeline, this conspiracy is everywhere. We’re going to get into that in a new tab — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay. After the break, the link between the pink pill, misinformation, and the war on birth control. Stick around. Let’s open a new tab: does birth control make you infertile? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Ugh, I mean no, there’s just like, no… evidence of this whatsoever. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On the internet, there’s this pervasive conspiracy theory that long-term hormonal birth control use leads to infertility, which is somehow funding the modern IVF industry. Like Kylie said, there is zero clinical evidence of this. This is a pretty extreme conspiracy theory, but anti-birth control content is on the rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A 2025 study, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, analyzed 100 of the top TikTok videos related to contraception, between August and September 2023. The videos had a collective 4.85 billion views — they were brimming with misinformation about hormonal birth control. Over half of the videos explicitly rejected hormonal birth control, and over a third of the videos recommended natural cycle tracking, without disclosing the limits of it. Only 10% of the videos were created by medical professionals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This stuff is everywhere online. Here’s what the conversation around birth control looks like right now — and this is on mainstream social media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Casiah West]: \u003c/strong>Your gynecologist isn’t really telling you how bad birth control is. What’s ironic is, the leading cause of death in women is heart disease. Is it that women are dying from heart disease because of birth control? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user The Workout Witch]:\u003c/strong> Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your body, specifically for your body’s biological stress response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Whatever Pod from TikTok]:\u003c/strong> If you actually look at the birth control usage rates and divorce rates, they actually perfectly coincide with like a three-year delay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Jay Shetty]:\u003c/strong> So we’re changing the hormone balance in women in a way that may not be completely reversible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]:\u003c/strong> Girls that I know who had like the implant in their arm or who have been on the pill for over 10 years cannot get pregnant. Almost like that was the entire point and plan in the first place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>These sensational claims flatten a reality that is complex and nuanced. It’s true that people have wildly different experiences with birth control. Many women have been dismissed, mistreated, and discriminated against by the medical system. Medical misogyny is real, and the history of birth control is steeped in it. The pill was tested on Puerto Rican women, and doctors did dismiss reports of side effects as “psychosomatic.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, a lot of women are still not offered adequate pain management for IUD insertions. There’s no “one-size-fits-all” birth control option, so figuring out what actually works for your body can take a bit of trial and error, which can be especially discouraging when your doctors aren’t listening. I, myself, have had mixed experiences with birth control. Kylie has too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that you’d be hard-pressed to talk to any woman or any person who uses or has used at different points hormonal birth control, and hear that they had an absolutely flawless, perfect, pain-free experience. Their bodies might not react that well to like, hormonal-birth control pills or any number of different methods. And I think that that is all incredibly valid and can’t be, you know, pushed under the rug. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are just a lot of… difficult realities with our healthcare system, how our medical system treats the experiences and bodies of women or people who use birth control. I think that what you’ll kind of see on social media are kind of these narratives that really tend to flatten that, or just capitalize on the fact that we have these negative experiences to push these different messages about the safety, or effectiveness of birth control, even though… you know, medically speaking, birth control is very safe and very effective. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s just that we, as different people with different bodies will have different experiences with it. But I think that, you know, that there’s no room for that kind of nuance in like the kinds of social media posts, and what ends up happening is that like, a lot of storytelling can be taken out of context and then fed into like this right-wing political agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The existing negative experiences that many people have had with reproductive health care means that the cultural discourse is primed to be co-opted by far-right political movements. Like pink-pill dating advice, there are certain buzzwords that raise red flags for Kylie — especially words like “natural” and “cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cycle tracking is a perfectly valid form of contraception. Lots of people can’t take hormonal birth control for health reasons and have successfully relied on cycle tracking. But when influencers disparage other forms of contraception and insist on the “natural element” without disclosing that it’s one of the least effective forms of birth control? Red flags. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>What we have is this very, very regressive agenda, but really packaged in kind of this feminist way. And like, if you really, if you like, squint or if you aren’t that educated in these issues yourself, like, sure, it might even sound like it makes sense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s only in the last few years that anti-birth control sentiments have gained so much momentum. We need to talk about when this uptick started. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I really started noticing and reporting on it specifically around like, 2022, which coincidentally, you know, was the year that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With Roe v. Wade overturned, many far-right religious groups and anti-abortion organizations have a new mission: to make birth control the new abortion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dasha Burns for NBC News from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>In the months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Maggie Olivia went to the pharmacy to pick up her birth control prescription. The pharmacists denied her prescription because they were unsure if it was legal, which it was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s open one more tab: the war on birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Make America Healthy Again — this is the Trump administration’s health initiative, spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., U.S. Health Secretary and notorious anti-vaxxer. The “MAHA” movement is fueled by skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. Practices and medications under scrutiny include: childhood vaccine schedules, Tylenol during pregnancy, antidepressants, ADHD drugs. And now, hormonal birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Amna Nawaz for PBS News Hour]: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Trump administration scrubbed CDC guidance on birth control from government websites and froze $65 million in funding to family planning clinics that provide free or low-cost contraception. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Department of Health and Human Services just overhauled Title X (ten). This is a federal grant program originally designed to help low-income Americans access birth control and other reproductive health care. Kylie said this program has always had bipartisan support, going all the way back to when Nixon signed it into law, over 50 years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now, according to a funding notice published at the beginning of July, grants funded through the program will, quote, “build body literacy, address infertility, plan and space pregnancies, and navigate reproductive health conditions such as endometriosis.” Contraception is not mentioned, except in a section about “over-medicalization.” Clinics that receive Title X (ten) funding are instructed to promote fertility awareness-based methods — like, natural cycle tracking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Some really concerning things have been like, the State Department equating certain forms of birth control and labeling them as abortifacient — and we’ve seen that a couple of times coming directly from this administration, and the goal then being to ban certain birth control or birth control more broadly, in the same way that abortion is banned. We’ve also seen the defunding of Planned Parenthood where like, what the language of that is is to suggest that reproductive healthcare and like, the provision of contraceptives and such isn’t actually health care — is kind of like the language. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Conservatives were not always this critical of birth control. In fact, many were pro-birth control. Back in 2015, Republicans actually introduced a bill to make it even more accessible — by incentivizing drug companies to sell over-the-counter birth control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there just has been this very sharp right-wing cultural pivot where a lot of this deeply pro-natalist language of human civilization and white Western society is in serious trouble if we don’t have a lot more babies really quick, like a lot of the Elon Musk rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Pro-natalism is an ideology that pushes for higher birth rates to combat the supposed “decline of civilization.” Anything that causes people to have more babies is on the table. Can you explain the link between this pro-natalist fear-mongering around falling birth rates and then white supremacist conspiracy theories? What is the great replacement theory that everyone’s freaking out about? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there is just this inherent link between, you know, panics about the birth rate and racial panics, even though obviously, you know sometimes it’ll be couched in this race-neutral language of just like the human race and declining birth rates there, or the fact that like abortion bans or denying people birth control access will affect people of all races and people of all races might then be forced to like move forward with a pregnancy they don’t want or whatnot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>It’s impossible to separate this panic from its racist roots. It started with fears of declining birth rates among white women. Kylie said the decline isn’t statistically significant. Experts say it’s likely due to declining teen pregnancy rates. But some extremists on the right claim that birth control is used to suppress white birth rates, in an attempt to replace white Americans as the racial majority. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There is just this deep tie between pronatalism and white nationalism in that way, just specifically because of how much white nationalism has like embraced pronatalism for its agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In 2022, just months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, UC Berkeley, Mother Jones, and Reveal teamed up for a massive reporting project. They uncovered a years-long social media campaign from anti-abortion groups — to capitalize on wellness trends, promote cycle tracking, and sow distrust in hormonal birth control. Conservative influencers have continued to push birth control skepticism online— often citing outdated or inconclusive research studies to back up their claims. Birth control misinformation continues to thrive on social media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]: \u003c/strong>Does anybody else find it just a teensy bit coincidental that they pushed birth control on Millennial and Gen Z teenagers so heavily and so early? And now, look at how booming IVF is? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That video has nearly identical wording to countless others. This year, political analyst Emily Amick published a three-part Substack series on the influencer campaign against birth control. She found dozens of Instagram posts from various lifestyle influencers that all had the same caption. They all said, and I quote, “I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the birth control pill was given out like candy to every female millennial at age 15. And now IVF is a $50 billion industry.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Abortion is very politically popular, and so I think even now it’s very interesting that you’ll see the Trump administration has refrained from taking certain moves to directly go after abortion, but has taken all of these many different moves to go after birth control and family planning. And I’ve read certain legal experts suspect as well, is that birth control in some ways is more vulnerable — because it’s increasingly less popular because of how much misinformation there is about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Over the last four years, there have been anecdotal reports of young women who’ve discontinued hormonal birth control because of what they see online. This is backed up by a 2024 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation. 49% of women between 18 and 25 have been served content about birth control on social media. 14% said they made a change to their birth control method or considered a change because of something they heard online. Kylie said, it’ll be decades until we understand the long-term effects of the online campaign against birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s easy to dismiss lifestyle content as frivolous and inconsequential. You might see a TikTok from a woman who brags about how her boyfriend pays all of their bills, and think… “It’s not that deep.” You might come across an influencer who questions the safety of IUDs and promotes natural cycle tracking — and it’s tempting to think… “That’s just her choice!” But the pink pill pipeline is real. Content targeted at women is rapidly becoming a vehicle for extremist ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since Trump’s re-election, concerns about the manosphere have dominated the political conversation. For all of the hand-wringing about bro-y podcasts radicalizing young men, there’s very little discussion about the young women buying into their own oppression. Content aimed at girls is just not taken seriously. That’s part of what makes the pink pill pipeline so effective. It’s the lack of awareness. There’s a political undercurrent to all of these girlish lifestyle videos, but it’s very easy to miss if you’re not already looking for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now, you know what to look for. Before you like a video, or follow an influencer, it’s worth taking a moment to really consider the agenda behind this content. Are they sharing a personal experience with one specific type of birth control? Or are they insisting that all birth control is bad — and that only the method they recommend is natural and healthy? Sure, the romantic date night content is cute, but… is the person posting it also telling you that you need to make yourself quiet and submissive if you want to find a man who’ll pick up the check? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The point is, you don’t have to engage with this content. But, if it comes across your feed, you should be ready to see it for what it is — and then you can keep scrolling. That’s it for our deep dive — but as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to go further down this rabbit hole, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. Until next week, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips and archive tape from Impaulsive, This Past Weekend with Theo Von, Adin Ross, The Matrix, Fox News, NBC News, PBS Newshour, and TikTok creators @earthangelariana, @ulovelailahakim, @theandelelara, Courtney Palmer, @casiahwest, @theworkoutwitch, @whateverpod, @jayshetty, and @prettypolitics101. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Yeah! Oh my God, now that I’m remembering it, I mean like in 2022, there was just like a viral moment of like a lot of different people theorizing that like, birth control makes you gay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I saw your “birth control makes people a lesbian rumor” piece and I was like, “That’s crazy,” because every lesbian I know says the complete opposite, that they went off the pill and they were like, “I don’t even like men.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>So fair, yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "how-the-furry-fandom-says-goodbye-reload",
"title": "How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye (Reload)",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
"blocks": [
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"Changa Husky, furry Vtuber and video producer",
"Patch O’Furr, founder and writer, Dogpatch Press"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"Who runs the internet? Furries — Dylan Reeve, The Spinoff ",
"Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom — Patch O’Furr, Dogpatch Press ",
"The Fandom: A Furry Documentary — Ash Coyote, YouTube",
"Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition — Changa Husky, YouTube ",
"Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda"
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null,
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "are-we-doomed-if-the-internet-goes-dark",
"title": "Are We Doomed If The Internet Goes Dark?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Are We Doomed If The Internet Goes Dark? | KQED",
"description": "What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, Are We Doomed? Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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