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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Emily Hart, the bikini-wearing right-wing AI influencer, had captured the hearts, minds and more of MAGA men online. But her creator, Sam, had grown sick of the creepy messages and unsolicited explicit photos he’d received from Emily’s adoring fans. And he was about to be outed as a “scammer.” In this follow-up to last week’s episode, we dig into the downfall of the MAGA dream girl, the explosion of AI “thirst” grifts and why Sam says he shouldn’t be labeled as a “scammer” at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2485498705\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a>— Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/goose-a-new-gay-dating-app-appears-to-be-a-psyop/\">Goose, a New Gay Dating App, Appears to Be a Psyop\u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://inkstickmedia.com/how-indias-cyber-scam-industry-causes-global-havoc/\">How India’s Cyber Scam Industry Causes Global Havoc\u003c/a> — Hanan Zaffar, \u003cem>Inkstick\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-pimping-industry-deepfakes-instagram/\">Inside the Booming ‘AI Pimping’ Industry\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler and Emanuel Maiberg, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://kffhealthnews.org/health-industry/hhs-exchange-visitor-program-visa-waiver-j1-h1b-delays-foreign-doctors-deadline/\">Delays in Visa Program Threaten Placement of Hundreds of Doctors in Underserved Areas\u003c/a> — Arielle Zionts, \u003cem>KFF Health News \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2026/06/11/white-house-wants-more-doctors-but-its-immigration-policies-block-them/\">White House Wants More Doctors But Its Immigration Policies Block Them\u003c/a> — Stuart Anderson, \u003cem>Forbes\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/foreign-medical-residents-fill-critical-positions-at-u-s-hospitals-but-many-now-face-visa-issues\">Foreign medical residents fill critical positions at U.S. hospitals, but many now face visa issues\u003c/a> — Adithi Ramakrishnan and Devi Shastri, \u003cem>PBS News\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.business-standard.com/immigration/indians-lead-uk-exit-wave-as-britain-s-migration-crackdown-begins-to-bite-126052200275_1.html\">Indians lead UK exit wave as Britain’s migration crackdown begins to bite | Immigration News\u003c/a> — Sunainaa Chadha, \u003cem>Business Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do they help you learn about all the chronically online things you’re too scared to Google at work? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. So this is actually the second part of our series on the saga of Emily Hart, an AI MAGA influencer, and Sam, the guy who created her. If you haven’t heard part one yet, check out last week’s episode. And just a heads up, this episode contains mentions of explicit sexual content. So listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We first met Sam in last week episode. He’s a 22 year old medical student from India, and he had been chasing side hustles in order to make extra cash while in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I needed some extra pocket money. I started first with YouTube shorts. I started making AI horror shorts, then Roblox, but like it didn’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was by far his most lucrative venture. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Emily Hart] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Hey, handsome, in this private ward, there are no supervisors and no rules. Just me, you, and whatever happens when these scrubs finally come off. \u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She was the MAGA dream girl. And she was completely AI-generated. She rapidly gained a following thanks to her Trump-supporting thirst traps. Every time Sam posted images of her ice fishing, shooting rifles, drinking beer, complete with an American flag bikini and bright red MAGA hat, her fans went wild. In just a few weeks, Emily had 15,000 followers on Instagram, over 20 million views on Reels and a small army of subscribers on FanView. That’s a site kind of like OnlyFans. And these guys literally paid to DM her. Well, really, paid to DM Sam. They didn’t know it was him, but they also didn’t seem to care that Emily wasn’t real. Sam was making a couple thousand dollars a month, so he wasn’t quite rolling in it, but that’s really good money for a student in India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Initially, I enjoyed it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What made it at less enjoyable for you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Actually it was a bit strange. It was a bit creepy like other male is talking to me in like, that way. It felt weird. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was getting sick of it. It started with the unsolicited dick pics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the unsolicited cum tributes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I’m like, what the hell is this guy doing? He sent me the video. And I was like, people do all these weird things. Like, it was super creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily, who was really Sam, was dealing with some real creeps. Like, there is this one guy who wouldn’t stop harassing her account. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>He used to call me. He used to call me on Instagram, he used to like, call me 10 times, like, ‘why aren’t you picking up? You shouldn’t disrespect someone like that,’ like, I muted him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When Sam ignored him, the guy sent a nude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>After like 10 missed calls, he just sent that pic. I was like, Why are you sending it? Like, are you thinking that seeing this, I will call you or something? As a male, I can say like, many males are like, super creepy and I hate such men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that was just the start of it. Emily Hart was a success, but Sam was starting to get uncomfortable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like my DMs are filled every day, I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then… Instagram flagged Emily’s account, and that was the beginning of the end. Today, we’re diving into the rest of Sam’s story, from the Instagram bans to the scammer accusations to what happened with his lifelong dream of moving to America. And we’ll take a look at some other AI grifts as we try to answer the big question. Is it fair to call Sam a scammer? Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Before we get into the other questions, let’s talk about the rest of Emily’s story. Unfortunately, her ending is not a happy one. That’s our first half: the death of Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the peak of her popularity, Emily Hart was gaining about 2,000 followers a day. Sam was on top of the world. But then Instagram started picking up on some suspicious behavior in Emily’s DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So like initially, like Instagram, I used to message people. I didn’t do that. Instagram reads all the DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Not only does Instagram monitor DMs, but it also does not allow adult content. And it doesn’t allow users to advertise adult content Even mentioning OnlyFans can get you banned. Sex workers usually bury links to their paywalled explicit content within a sea of other links, three or four clicks deep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t know that, I sent a link to my Fanvue personally in DM, and like Instagram flagged my account instantly, like within 5-10 minutes, my account got flagged, it got banned, like I cannot use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Panicked, Sam got in touch with Meta and appealed the ban. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They asked for my personal ID and my mobile number, my email, all my personal information. And like my account got recovered the next day. And then it was flagged again, like two, five days after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He wasn’t sure what triggered the second ban, but it could have been for a number of reasons. He didn’t disclose that the account was AI, which goes against Instagram’s policies. He avoided even mentioning Emily’s Fanvue, but Meta could have flagged her account anyway using data about Sam’s internet usage. That happens to human sex workers all the time. Sam appealed again and, again, managed to recover Emily’s account. But then, about a month later, on the night of Valentine’s Day…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> it was like, boom, it’s over, they deleted my account, they don’t even give me the reason. It was just written that you don’t follow our community guidelines, that’s why we are suspending your account. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But then Sam remembered one certain post. And if he hadn’t already racked up a history of bans, Meta may have let this one slide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was the death by a thousand cuts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Ej Dickson, who first reported the story for Wired. Well, the Instagram guidelines require that creators disclose whether or not their profiles are AI-generated, and he wasn’t kicked off for violating that. He was kicked off for basically leaning into MAGA hatred too much, which I kind of thought was funny in a really dark way. Like he posted something really racist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re not going to repeat what the post said, but here’s how Sam explained why he did it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t hate African American people like, but it’s generally like, MAGA people don’t like them as much. MAGA people were like, super racist. Okay? So like I thought that like if I make an racially inappropriate joke for like, I thought that people would appreciate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He girlbossed too close to the sun, basically. And that’s what got him kicked off, not the fact that it was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s audience loved Sam’s posts about deporting immigrants and demonizing abortion. But this went too far for even them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Instagram is basically racism app. It’s like, filled with racism. And like, people appreciate it in comment section. Like people make jokes of it. But one thing that was super surprising for me is that like when I posted it, like even the MAGA people like, no one supported me, not like, even a single guy supported me. And people were like this is straight out racism. And people mass reported that reel and it got my Threads account banned. So it was surprising for me that people didn’t entertain that racism. It felt good. Like, at least people are not like, that racist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam tried to appeal it, like he did with previous bans, but Emily Hart’s Instagram account was gone forever. It was particularly devastating because he had been chasing side hustles for months, and this was the one that finally paid off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I was super upset, like I tried many things, like 10 things, 15 things and finally there was a hope, like there is this thing that worked out for me. There is thing like, that I figured out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He didn’t have much time to dwell on it, though. The big entrance exam for Indian medical specialty programs was just a few months away, so he had to lock in and study. And then, he had to navigate a different kind of internet fame. Ej’s wired story about Emily Hart was published shortly after the final Instagram ban. And it became even more viral than Emily herself. Ej expected some backlash from the MAGA crowd. After all, the headline of her story was literally “This scammer used an AI-generated MAGA girl to grift super dumb men.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>But a really interesting thing happened after the story came out where even MAGA accounts were reposting it being like, ‘Good for this guy!’ Like, applauding his efforts to scam, basically. There were some people who were saying like, incredibly racist things about brown people, but in the same breath were like, but honestly, good for this guy. If this is what these guys are capable of, like,more of them should come over here. That was a sentiment I saw more than once. And it’s a disgusting sentiment, right? It’s a despicable sentiment, but I was very surprised to see that even the people who were being duped by this guy were applauding the level of grift that it took to dupe them. I mean, that’s what they were doing. There were a couple of people who were mad, but for the most part, they were like, this guy? Good for him, you know, game-recognize-game. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam also loved Ej’s story. He said he sent it to all of his friends. And even though his name and identity were kept anonymous, for a brief moment, he was kind of a celebrity online. This story was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from an episode of The View ] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Joy Behar: So-called MAGA men, they were drooling over a social media personality named Emily Hart, a cute little blonde who would post pro-Trump content and even send bikini photos if people paid for it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Fox and Friends] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Kurt ‘CyberGuy’ Knutsson: I mean, this is catfishing on steroids, period. And you can see why the guys fell for her. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from HOT 97 TV News] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: She is not real. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Wait, what? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is AI. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith:Oh, wow. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is A.I. Turns out this is a viral MAGA influencer and she was ran by a med student from India. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Oh, he’s so smart. So smart. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I read thousands of comments, and people were appreciating. Like, give this guy a green card. You know, give the guy a citizen. It’s an example of good Indian, we need them in the USA. And people were super appreciating like, that he’s just smart, MAGA are dumb. Like, it’s not his fault if people are dumb. It’s a super genius idea. I should have thought of that. It was a very positive reaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, he did have an issue with one part of the article. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>In the article headline, they called me a scammer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>To this day Sam insists that he never scammed anyone. He says it’s a racist assumption that all Indian people online are scammers. We’ll hear his case in a new tab. That’s for after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, what makes a scammer? Don’t go anywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: is Sam a scammer? After Ej’s story came out, people praised Sam as innovative and creative and a master of his craft. Even Trump supporters applauded his dedication to the hustle. Sam ate it up, but he was genuinely offended by the way everyone called him a scammer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t scam anyone. I disclosed people that they shouldn’t tip. I disclose people that they shouldn’t spend so much money on me. Like, didn’t have any bad intention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A scammer, according to Merriam-Webster, is someone who participates in a fraudulent scheme. Cambridge Dictionary- someone who makes money using illegal methods by tricking people. Wikipedia- someone defrauds a person or group after gaining their trust. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I just want to make some money. You can say it’s not ethical, but it’s not a scam, like I didn’t do anything, you can say, illegal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam technically didn’t defraud anyone. While Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI generated, Sam did disclose it to subscribers on Fanvue, where he was actually making money. He said he had plenty of opportunities to scam Emily Hart subscribers. Multiple fans had offered to pay her thousands of dollars to meet in person, but Sam said he never took the money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People were like, we will pay for your plane ticket and please just come to California. We will have a dinner. Let’s have a dinner together and all that. Like, I could have easily taken their money. Like, I would have easily sent them, you can say, Bitcoin or like some, you can say, crypto link, but like, I was like, super clear with that. Like, I will not do anything wrong. And I knew that like, I can’t meet them in real life. They will just waive their money and I didn’t want that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam felt that the money he earned selling Fanvue subscriptions and pay-per-view content was earned, even if it was through AI-generated softcore porn. He disclosed that the content was AI, and he was providing something in return for their money. But he wasn’t comfortable accepting direct tips from Emily’s subscribers. He even sent some tips back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>From New Jersey and like he was tipping me a lot and I wondered like why he’s tipping so much. I asked him like ‘why are you tipping me so much?’ He was tipping so much in hopes that I will meet him because my model was based in New York City and it was close to New Jersey so he was like, if I tip her so much, maybe she will come to meet me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Sam told the subscriber that Emily was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I returned all the tip money. Then I was like, if you want to cancel the subscription, it’s completely fine with me. He was like no, like he didn’t even take all of the tip back. Like he tipped me $10 and he was like that, it’s okay. And like I returned the rest of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was offended that he was being labeled a scammer,because in his eyes, if he had actually scammed people, he’d have a lot more money. He also said it feeds into some of the racist assumptions that many people online make about India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There is a stereotype for Indian people, like, all the Indian people are scammers. Like, I didn’t want to do that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India dominates the IT industry. The English-speaking world’s major tech support hubs are based in India. But as this booming market grew, the cyber scam economy exploded too. Callers often pose as tech support agents from Amazon or fraud investigators from major banks and persuade gullible victims to hand over remote access to their devices and accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, people in India, they scam them out of thousands of dollars and I really feel bad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s economic strain and rising unemployment rates are pushing more young people to work at cyber scam centers because no one else is hiring. And that has really affected Sam, especially when he tries to make friends online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>That hurt the Indian image so much that even like, I meet people online, I can’t even tell them that I am Indian. They straight out hate me. Like, you are a scammer, you know all that racial comments, and I am like, you haven’t even talked with me, you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He specifically tried to adhere to his own moral code with Emily Hart, in part because he’s aware of the scammer reputation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I absolutely hate that, like it ruins the image of my country and I don’t like it at all. So I am like that, I am doing this and I will do this as ethically as possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So yes, Sam did dupe conservative men into following Emily Hart’s Instagram account. And he did build a following using racist, xenophobic, and downright offensive content. But when it comes to the question of whether he’s a scammer, sure, he profited off of the MAGA fantasy of a woman that doesn’t exist, but there were lines he refused to cross. And if subscribers tried to tip him more than the $5 subscription fee, he’d remind them that Emily Hart wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The thing is, scamming is not a term in our legal system, unlike fraud and theft, which can be prosecuted. And Sam didn’t do either of those. So whether he’s a scammer is really a moral question. And we can’t really weigh in on that until we understand the other ways people are using AI to deceive and profit off of others. Which, of course, means opening a new tab: the AI Thirst Trap Griff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI models took off for the general public in the early 2020s. And since then, the grifts have been booming. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a spectrum of this, of the AI influencer grift, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej has been reporting on this a lot for Wired, tracking all the new developments in the AI-influencer world. The industry is thriving. It seems like there’s a new synthetic personality going viral every day. They dominate streaming charts with their AI-generated music. They represent brands as AI-generated models. They crank out YouTube videos and TikToks and Reels faster than any human influencer can. And, like Emily Hart, they even sell AI-generated nudes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think we’re at a point where low effort is being rewarded and there’s a premium put on it versus hard work. And like, there are a lot of especially younger people who think that the mark of success is basically making as much money with as little work as possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And there’s one trend in the AI influencer space that really freaks Ej out. So Emily Hart is not necessarily based on a real human being. Sam generated her from scratch by prompting Gemini. You could argue that Gemini was trained using real people’s photos, and that there’s a chance that someone out there does look like her. But that’s a conversation for another deep dive. What actually concerns Ej is this growing trend of using AI to modify real women’s photos and videos. And selling them on adult content sites, entirely without their consent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I did a story about these 19-year-old boys who had developed this side hustle of taking random girls’ photos from Instagram, like private citizens, people with 1,000, 2,000 followers, not models or anything like that, and using nudify apps and posting sexual content of them on sites like Fanvue. And they were literally making YouTube tutorials and teaching men how to do this and how to make these photos, like what types of girls’ photos they should feed into the model to train it. It was really, really dark. And I think that we are headed for a future where that’s gonna become more normalized than not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>YouTube is teeming with tutorials to get rich quick by using generative AI to make explicit content. Almost all of the tutorials are taught by men who are profiting off of AI content based on real women. Some people refer to this as digital pimping. Ej thinks that phrasing is actually too mild. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it’s digital exploitation. I think it is digital trafficking, essentially. These guys are really invested in creating a reality where women who do not consent to being sexualized at all can have anything they want done with their images. No matter how old they are, no matter where they work, what they do. These guys just use the internet as free reign to humiliate them, because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not about getting off. It’s about humiliation. It’s about the lack of consent is the point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then there’s this practice of using AI influencers as bait. Ej recently broke this big story about the gay dating app Goose. Goose was marketed as a wholesome social platform. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Basically positioning it as a competitor to Grindr, except it would be less casual sex and hookup focused and more focused on socializing and making friends and forming real human connections. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Goose deployed a small army of hot gay influencers to recruit other gay men. These influencers would follow gay guys and add them to their Close Friends story or slide into their DMs with a “hey, you seem cool.” And eventually, they’d send an invite code to Goose. All of these influencers were AI-generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That was a big part of their marketing strategy, is making these very believable looking hot guy accounts with like 300, 400, 500 followers who like, worked in very realistic jobs. Like, one of the guys said he worked for Strava, like, another one of guys said he worked for like, David Zwirner Gallery. And that’s really convincing. And I think it really messed with a lot of people’s perceptions of reality and their ability to discern what is AI and what isn’t. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej said she could understand why people fell for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>In order to get on Goose, because it’s invite only at this point, and you obviously have to be a gay man to join it, I made my own AI-generated hot guy influencer account. I was trying to make it really convincing. So I was like, give him beards, give him tattoos, like, make him live in Crown Heights, make him be like, a record producer/engineer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more that I was like, generating these photos and generating this guy’s biography, I was like, oh my God, I’ve made the hottest man in the world. Like, I would absolutely have sex with this. Honestly, and this is a huge compliment to my husband. Like, he looked a lot like my husband, so even I, like, for a split second, was kind of deceived by the too-good-to-be-true element of AI, at least momentarily. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Compared to other examples Ej just talked about, was what Sam did really that bad? There’s a spectrum of AI thirst trap grifts. Ultimately, Sam did profit off of Emily Hart, but was he causing harm to anyone? That’s less clear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And then on the other hand, you have those evil motherf*ckers who are posting YouTube tutorials to young men teaching them how to take some high school girls’ photo off of Instagram and run her through a nudify app and make money off that. And the technology is getting better every day. It’s just getting easier and easier and easier and easier to do. It took me five minutes to make my hot gay man thirst trap guy. For Goose, it took the guys who were posting those YouTube tutorials, they were saying it took them 10 minutes. I think six months ago, the question would have been is the juice worth the squeeze? And now, like, there is no squeeze, you know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, the squeeze is no longer worth it for Sam. After Emily Hart’s account was banned for good, Sam tried to make another. But he found that, somehow, Meta banded him too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Even now my phone is blacklisted. If I use another number it will be blacklisted. So I cannot even create an Instagram account. Even if it’s not for all this like, Like, I created another Instagram account for personal use stuff and it deletes it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As lucrative as Emily Hart was, Sam’s kind of over the whole thing anyway. He doesn’t want to deal with the creeps, and he’s tired of pretending to be racist for engagement. And he’s got other stuff going on in his life. He’s about to graduate from medical school. His whole university career, he dreamed of moving to the U.S. It was going to be his ticket out of India’s economic crisis and caste system. But, this whole ordeal with Emily Hart combined with other factors, has him second-guessing his life plan. That’s a new tab: should I move to America? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sam had mapped out his entire career strategy when he started university, making sure to check all the boxes required to land a residency match in the U.S., which is already competitive, but even more so for international students. But he was determined. The United States Medical Licensing Exam is an incredibly rigorous process. It’s split into three parts over multiple years. Step one, which students take during their first years of medical school, is eight hours long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I cleared it in my first attempt, like, you only get one chance and I cleared it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>According to his plan, he should be taking step two soon. But since clearing the first exam, he’s watched immigration to the U.S. Become more and more difficult under the Trump administration. And now he’s rethinking his plan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, Donald Trump has made it so difficult to, even if you’re talented, they don’t want you. Even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. He did like hundreds of policy changes, like, every day he wakes up, he do a policy change. It’s like, you know you can’t predict him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Trump administration’s immigration policies have wreaked havoc on the medical training system, from implementing strict time limits on visas for trainees, to stalling visa renewals for doctors who are already practicing here. There’s also the $100,000 entry fee for H-1B visa holders, which a lot of rural hospitals just can’t afford. And amid the constant flux in the White House’s policies, ICE officers have targeted, detained, and deported immigrants, even if their visas are still valid. Sam has watched it all unfold while finishing school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And one day, I was like, it’s enough, I give up, like, I don’t want to gamble with my future. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And, immigration policies aside, his interactions with Americans, as Emily Hart, have soured his opinion of the U.S. He did choose to pander to people who have extremely racist and xenophobic stances, and he did stoke these viewpoints with Emily’s content. But at the same time, it wasn’t lost on him that if these followers knew who he really was, he’d probably be the target of their vitriol too. He said that a lot of these interactions reinforced his beliefs about conservative America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but you know, stereotype doesn’t write themselves, okay? Like, stereotype exists for a reason. I learned that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So making it in America, the land of opportunity and Grand Theft Auto, is no longer Sam’s goal. He said many of his classmates feel the same way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Because of this, many of the talented people are going to countries like Japan, Germany, like, good European countries, like,even UAE. People are saying, don’t go to the United States. And even after all this, you have to face racism on that. It’s not worth it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam considered trying to get into a specialty training program in other English-speaking countries, but he’s not sure of that either. The political climates in those countries aren’t the most welcoming right now. The UK has tightened its visa pathways and increased restrictions for international workers. And Australia recently placed Indian students in the high-risk visa category. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, nobody is willing to accept Indians, but the sentiment is very anti-immigration right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam said a lot of young people would actually want to stay in India if it weren’t for the caste system and tanking job market. He said that the reservation system, which was designed to uplift the most oppressed castes, leaves the middle class to compete for opportunities with the ultra-wealthy. But despite all his gripes with his home country and his lifelong dream of getting out, he is actually planning to stay for now. He scrapped his U.S. Immigration plans. Instead, he’s been studying for the big national entrance exam for India’s medical post-grad programs. He’s sitting for it at the end of the month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It wasn’t worth it for Sam to maintain Emily Hart’s Fanvue without having an Instagram to direct traffic to it. But he does still need to make money. And since he’s studying six to eight hours a day on top of his clinical work, he doesn’t have time for a nine to five. A few weeks ago, Sam started working on what he calls a more ethical version of Emily Hart, helping brands create AI influencers to promote their products. He doubts it’ll be as financially rewarding as Emily Hart. It’s essentially a marketing gig, which he said was kind of boring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Emily was another level of fun, it was like, you know, you get an adrenaline rush every day, you see like 2000 followers are adding up, there are people tipping on you, there are are people that are going crazy for you, or like people are copying you. It was a whole different level of, you can say, fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But even if he could get around the meta ban, Sam has zero interest in attempting to create another Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> I used to think that you can, you know, easily make good amount of money effortlessly. All this AI creator and stuff didn’t take a lot of effort. It was hardly 15 to 30 minutes a day of work. And actually, it made a good amount of money. But what I concluded is that like, you cannot make a good amount money consistently without putting in effort. That’s my takeaway. If it feels too good to be true, then it is too good to be true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive into the saga of Emily Hart, and, more importantly, the story of the real guy who created her. Special thanks to Sam and Ej for sharing this with us. We have opened so many tabs for this series, but if you feel like you still need to open more, we’ll link to some further reading in the show notes. And as usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay. It’s finally time, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Lauren Yoon is our intern and was also the associate producer on this episode. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. This episode also includes clips from The View, Fox & Friends, and Hot 97. It also includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, I’ve tried a lot of things like trading bots, like stock market and stuff. I got good success in that, but then I lost a lot of money, I lost $1,000 in stock market, then I quit it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Emily Hart, the bikini-wearing right-wing AI influencer, had captured the hearts, minds and more of MAGA men online. But her creator, Sam, had grown sick of the creepy messages and unsolicited explicit photos he’d received from Emily’s adoring fans. And he was about to be outed as a “scammer.” In this follow-up to last week’s episode, we dig into the downfall of the MAGA dream girl, the explosion of AI “thirst” grifts and why Sam says he shouldn’t be labeled as a “scammer” at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Emily Hart, the bikini-wearing right-wing AI influencer, had captured the hearts, minds and more of MAGA men online. But her creator, Sam, had grown sick of the creepy messages and unsolicited explicit photos he’d received from Emily’s adoring fans. And he was about to be outed as a “scammer.” In this follow-up to last week’s episode, we dig into the downfall of the MAGA dream girl, the explosion of AI “thirst” grifts and why Sam says he shouldn’t be labeled as a “scammer” at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a>— Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a>— Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/goose-a-new-gay-dating-app-appears-to-be-a-psyop/\">Goose, a New Gay Dating App, Appears to Be a Psyop\u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://inkstickmedia.com/how-indias-cyber-scam-industry-causes-global-havoc/\">How India’s Cyber Scam Industry Causes Global Havoc\u003c/a> — Hanan Zaffar, \u003cem>Inkstick\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://inkstickmedia.com/how-indias-cyber-scam-industry-causes-global-havoc/\">How India’s Cyber Scam Industry Causes Global Havoc\u003c/a> — Hanan Zaffar, \u003cem>Inkstick\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-pimping-industry-deepfakes-instagram/\">Inside the Booming ‘AI Pimping’ Industry\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler and Emanuel Maiberg, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do they help you learn about all the chronically online things you’re too scared to Google at work? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. So this is actually the second part of our series on the saga of Emily Hart, an AI MAGA influencer, and Sam, the guy who created her. If you haven’t heard part one yet, check out last week’s episode. And just a heads up, this episode contains mentions of explicit sexual content. So listen with care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do they help you learn about all the chronically online things you’re too scared to Google at work? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. So this is actually the second part of our series on the saga of Emily Hart, an AI MAGA influencer, and Sam, the guy who created her. If you haven’t heard part one yet, check out last week’s episode. And just a heads up, this episode contains mentions of explicit sexual content. So listen with care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We first met Sam in last week episode. He’s a 22 year old medical student from India, and he had been chasing side hustles in order to make extra cash while in school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I needed some extra pocket money. I started first with YouTube shorts. I started making AI horror shorts, then Roblox, but like it didn’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Emily Hart] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Hey, handsome, in this private ward, there are no supervisors and no rules. Just me, you, and whatever happens when these scrubs finally come off. \u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Emily Hart] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Hey, handsome, in this private ward, there are no supervisors and no rules. Just me, you, and whatever happens when these scrubs finally come off. \u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She was the MAGA dream girl. And she was completely AI-generated. She rapidly gained a following thanks to her Trump-supporting thirst traps. Every time Sam posted images of her ice fishing, shooting rifles, drinking beer, complete with an American flag bikini and bright red MAGA hat, her fans went wild. In just a few weeks, Emily had 15,000 followers on Instagram, over 20 million views on Reels and a small army of subscribers on FanView. That’s a site kind of like OnlyFans. And these guys literally paid to DM her. Well, really, paid to DM Sam. They didn’t know it was him, but they also didn’t seem to care that Emily wasn’t real. Sam was making a couple thousand dollars a month, so he wasn’t quite rolling in it, but that’s really good money for a student in India. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She was the MAGA dream girl. And she was completely AI-generated. She rapidly gained a following thanks to her Trump-supporting thirst traps. Every time Sam posted images of her ice fishing, shooting rifles, drinking beer, complete with an American flag bikini and bright red MAGA hat, her fans went wild. In just a few weeks, Emily had 15,000 followers on Instagram, over 20 million views on Reels and a small army of subscribers on FanView. That’s a site kind of like OnlyFans. And these guys literally paid to DM her. Well, really, paid to DM Sam. They didn’t know it was him, but they also didn’t seem to care that Emily wasn’t real. Sam was making a couple thousand dollars a month, so he wasn’t quite rolling in it, but that’s really good money for a student in India. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Initially, I enjoyed it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Initially, I enjoyed it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What made it at less enjoyable for you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What made it at less enjoyable for you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Actually it was a bit strange. It was a bit creepy like other male is talking to me in like, that way. It felt weird. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Actually it was a bit strange. It was a bit creepy like other male is talking to me in like, that way. It felt weird. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was getting sick of it. It started with the unsolicited dick pics. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was getting sick of it. It started with the unsolicited dick pics. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the unsolicited cum tributes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the unsolicited cum tributes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I’m like, what the hell is this guy doing? He sent me the video. And I was like, people do all these weird things. Like, it was super creepy. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I’m like, what the hell is this guy doing? He sent me the video. And I was like, people do all these weird things. Like, it was super creepy. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily, who was really Sam, was dealing with some real creeps. Like, there is this one guy who wouldn’t stop harassing her account. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily, who was really Sam, was dealing with some real creeps. Like, there is this one guy who wouldn’t stop harassing her account. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>He used to call me. He used to call me on Instagram, he used to like, call me 10 times, like, ‘why aren’t you picking up? You shouldn’t disrespect someone like that,’ like, I muted him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>He used to call me. He used to call me on Instagram, he used to like, call me 10 times, like, ‘why aren’t you picking up? You shouldn’t disrespect someone like that,’ like, I muted him. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When Sam ignored him, the guy sent a nude. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When Sam ignored him, the guy sent a nude. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>After like 10 missed calls, he just sent that pic. I was like, Why are you sending it? Like, are you thinking that seeing this, I will call you or something? As a male, I can say like, many males are like, super creepy and I hate such men. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>After like 10 missed calls, he just sent that pic. I was like, Why are you sending it? Like, are you thinking that seeing this, I will call you or something? As a male, I can say like, many males are like, super creepy and I hate such men. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that was just the start of it. Emily Hart was a success, but Sam was starting to get uncomfortable. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that was just the start of it. Emily Hart was a success, but Sam was starting to get uncomfortable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like my DMs are filled every day, I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like my DMs are filled every day, I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then… Instagram flagged Emily’s account, and that was the beginning of the end. Today, we’re diving into the rest of Sam’s story, from the Instagram bans to the scammer accusations to what happened with his lifelong dream of moving to America. And we’ll take a look at some other AI grifts as we try to answer the big question. Is it fair to call Sam a scammer? Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then… Instagram flagged Emily’s account, and that was the beginning of the end. Today, we’re diving into the rest of Sam’s story, from the Instagram bans to the scammer accusations to what happened with his lifelong dream of moving to America. And we’ll take a look at some other AI grifts as we try to answer the big question. Is it fair to call Sam a scammer? Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Before we get into the other questions, let’s talk about the rest of Emily’s story. Unfortunately, her ending is not a happy one. That’s our first half: the death of Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Before we get into the other questions, let’s talk about the rest of Emily’s story. Unfortunately, her ending is not a happy one. That’s our first half: the death of Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the peak of her popularity, Emily Hart was gaining about 2,000 followers a day. Sam was on top of the world. But then Instagram started picking up on some suspicious behavior in Emily’s DMs. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>At the peak of her popularity, Emily Hart was gaining about 2,000 followers a day. Sam was on top of the world. But then Instagram started picking up on some suspicious behavior in Emily’s DMs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So like initially, like Instagram, I used to message people. I didn’t do that. Instagram reads all the DMs. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So like initially, like Instagram, I used to message people. I didn’t do that. Instagram reads all the DMs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Not only does Instagram monitor DMs, but it also does not allow adult content. And it doesn’t allow users to advertise adult content Even mentioning OnlyFans can get you banned. Sex workers usually bury links to their paywalled explicit content within a sea of other links, three or four clicks deep. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Not only does Instagram monitor DMs, but it also does not allow adult content. And it doesn’t allow users to advertise adult content Even mentioning OnlyFans can get you banned. Sex workers usually bury links to their paywalled explicit content within a sea of other links, three or four clicks deep. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t know that, I sent a link to my Fanvue personally in DM, and like Instagram flagged my account instantly, like within 5-10 minutes, my account got flagged, it got banned, like I cannot use it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t know that, I sent a link to my Fanvue personally in DM, and like Instagram flagged my account instantly, like within 5-10 minutes, my account got flagged, it got banned, like I cannot use it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Panicked, Sam got in touch with Meta and appealed the ban. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Panicked, Sam got in touch with Meta and appealed the ban. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They asked for my personal ID and my mobile number, my email, all my personal information. And like my account got recovered the next day. And then it was flagged again, like two, five days after. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They asked for my personal ID and my mobile number, my email, all my personal information. And like my account got recovered the next day. And then it was flagged again, like two, five days after. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He wasn’t sure what triggered the second ban, but it could have been for a number of reasons. He didn’t disclose that the account was AI, which goes against Instagram’s policies. He avoided even mentioning Emily’s Fanvue, but Meta could have flagged her account anyway using data about Sam’s internet usage. That happens to human sex workers all the time. Sam appealed again and, again, managed to recover Emily’s account. But then, about a month later, on the night of Valentine’s Day…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He wasn’t sure what triggered the second ban, but it could have been for a number of reasons. He didn’t disclose that the account was AI, which goes against Instagram’s policies. He avoided even mentioning Emily’s Fanvue, but Meta could have flagged her account anyway using data about Sam’s internet usage. That happens to human sex workers all the time. Sam appealed again and, again, managed to recover Emily’s account. But then, about a month later, on the night of Valentine’s Day…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> it was like, boom, it’s over, they deleted my account, they don’t even give me the reason. It was just written that you don’t follow our community guidelines, that’s why we are suspending your account. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> it was like, boom, it’s over, they deleted my account, they don’t even give me the reason. It was just written that you don’t follow our community guidelines, that’s why we are suspending your account. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But then Sam remembered one certain post. And if he hadn’t already racked up a history of bans, Meta may have let this one slide. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But then Sam remembered one certain post. And if he hadn’t already racked up a history of bans, Meta may have let this one slide. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was the death by a thousand cuts. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was the death by a thousand cuts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Ej Dickson, who first reported the story for Wired. Well, the Instagram guidelines require that creators disclose whether or not their profiles are AI-generated, and he wasn’t kicked off for violating that. He was kicked off for basically leaning into MAGA hatred too much, which I kind of thought was funny in a really dark way. Like he posted something really racist.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Ej Dickson, who first reported the story for Wired. Well, the Instagram guidelines require that creators disclose whether or not their profiles are AI-generated, and he wasn’t kicked off for violating that. He was kicked off for basically leaning into MAGA hatred too much, which I kind of thought was funny in a really dark way. Like he posted something really racist.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re not going to repeat what the post said, but here’s how Sam explained why he did it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re not going to repeat what the post said, but here’s how Sam explained why he did it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t hate African American people like, but it’s generally like, MAGA people don’t like them as much. MAGA people were like, super racist. Okay? So like I thought that like if I make an racially inappropriate joke for like, I thought that people would appreciate.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t hate African American people like, but it’s generally like, MAGA people don’t like them as much. MAGA people were like, super racist. Okay? So like I thought that like if I make an racially inappropriate joke for like, I thought that people would appreciate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He girlbossed too close to the sun, basically. And that’s what got him kicked off, not the fact that it was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He girlbossed too close to the sun, basically. And that’s what got him kicked off, not the fact that it was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s audience loved Sam’s posts about deporting immigrants and demonizing abortion. But this went too far for even them. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s audience loved Sam’s posts about deporting immigrants and demonizing abortion. But this went too far for even them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Instagram is basically racism app. It’s like, filled with racism. And like, people appreciate it in comment section. Like people make jokes of it. But one thing that was super surprising for me is that like when I posted it, like even the MAGA people like, no one supported me, not like, even a single guy supported me. And people were like this is straight out racism. And people mass reported that reel and it got my Threads account banned. So it was surprising for me that people didn’t entertain that racism. It felt good. Like, at least people are not like, that racist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Instagram is basically racism app. It’s like, filled with racism. And like, people appreciate it in comment section. Like people make jokes of it. But one thing that was super surprising for me is that like when I posted it, like even the MAGA people like, no one supported me, not like, even a single guy supported me. And people were like this is straight out racism. And people mass reported that reel and it got my Threads account banned. So it was surprising for me that people didn’t entertain that racism. It felt good. Like, at least people are not like, that racist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam tried to appeal it, like he did with previous bans, but Emily Hart’s Instagram account was gone forever. It was particularly devastating because he had been chasing side hustles for months, and this was the one that finally paid off. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam tried to appeal it, like he did with previous bans, but Emily Hart’s Instagram account was gone forever. It was particularly devastating because he had been chasing side hustles for months, and this was the one that finally paid off. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I was super upset, like I tried many things, like 10 things, 15 things and finally there was a hope, like there is this thing that worked out for me. There is thing like, that I figured out. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I was super upset, like I tried many things, like 10 things, 15 things and finally there was a hope, like there is this thing that worked out for me. There is thing like, that I figured out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He didn’t have much time to dwell on it, though. The big entrance exam for Indian medical specialty programs was just a few months away, so he had to lock in and study. And then, he had to navigate a different kind of internet fame. Ej’s wired story about Emily Hart was published shortly after the final Instagram ban. And it became even more viral than Emily herself. Ej expected some backlash from the MAGA crowd. After all, the headline of her story was literally “This scammer used an AI-generated MAGA girl to grift super dumb men.” \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He didn’t have much time to dwell on it, though. The big entrance exam for Indian medical specialty programs was just a few months away, so he had to lock in and study. And then, he had to navigate a different kind of internet fame. Ej’s wired story about Emily Hart was published shortly after the final Instagram ban. And it became even more viral than Emily herself. Ej expected some backlash from the MAGA crowd. After all, the headline of her story was literally “This scammer used an AI-generated MAGA girl to grift super dumb men.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>But a really interesting thing happened after the story came out where even MAGA accounts were reposting it being like, ‘Good for this guy!’ Like, applauding his efforts to scam, basically. There were some people who were saying like, incredibly racist things about brown people, but in the same breath were like, but honestly, good for this guy. If this is what these guys are capable of, like,more of them should come over here. That was a sentiment I saw more than once. And it’s a disgusting sentiment, right? It’s a despicable sentiment, but I was very surprised to see that even the people who were being duped by this guy were applauding the level of grift that it took to dupe them. I mean, that’s what they were doing. There were a couple of people who were mad, but for the most part, they were like, this guy? Good for him, you know, game-recognize-game. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>But a really interesting thing happened after the story came out where even MAGA accounts were reposting it being like, ‘Good for this guy!’ Like, applauding his efforts to scam, basically. There were some people who were saying like, incredibly racist things about brown people, but in the same breath were like, but honestly, good for this guy. If this is what these guys are capable of, like,more of them should come over here. That was a sentiment I saw more than once. And it’s a disgusting sentiment, right? It’s a despicable sentiment, but I was very surprised to see that even the people who were being duped by this guy were applauding the level of grift that it took to dupe them. I mean, that’s what they were doing. There were a couple of people who were mad, but for the most part, they were like, this guy? Good for him, you know, game-recognize-game. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam also loved Ej’s story. He said he sent it to all of his friends. And even though his name and identity were kept anonymous, for a brief moment, he was kind of a celebrity online. This story was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam also loved Ej’s story. He said he sent it to all of his friends. And even though his name and identity were kept anonymous, for a brief moment, he was kind of a celebrity online. This story was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from an episode of The View ] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Joy Behar: So-called MAGA men, they were drooling over a social media personality named Emily Hart, a cute little blonde who would post pro-Trump content and even send bikini photos if people paid for it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from an episode of The View ] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Joy Behar: So-called MAGA men, they were drooling over a social media personality named Emily Hart, a cute little blonde who would post pro-Trump content and even send bikini photos if people paid for it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Fox and Friends] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Kurt ‘CyberGuy’ Knutsson: I mean, this is catfishing on steroids, period. And you can see why the guys fell for her. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Fox and Friends] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Kurt ‘CyberGuy’ Knutsson: I mean, this is catfishing on steroids, period. And you can see why the guys fell for her. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from HOT 97 TV News] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: She is not real. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Wait, what? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is AI. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith:Oh, wow. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is A.I. Turns out this is a viral MAGA influencer and she was ran by a med student from India. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Oh, he’s so smart. So smart. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from HOT 97 TV News] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: She is not real. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Wait, what? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is AI. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith:Oh, wow. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is A.I. Turns out this is a viral MAGA influencer and she was ran by a med student from India. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Oh, he’s so smart. So smart. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I read thousands of comments, and people were appreciating. Like, give this guy a green card. You know, give the guy a citizen. It’s an example of good Indian, we need them in the USA. And people were super appreciating like, that he’s just smart, MAGA are dumb. Like, it’s not his fault if people are dumb. It’s a super genius idea. I should have thought of that. It was a very positive reaction. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I read thousands of comments, and people were appreciating. Like, give this guy a green card. You know, give the guy a citizen. It’s an example of good Indian, we need them in the USA. And people were super appreciating like, that he’s just smart, MAGA are dumb. Like, it’s not his fault if people are dumb. It’s a super genius idea. I should have thought of that. It was a very positive reaction. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, he did have an issue with one part of the article. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, he did have an issue with one part of the article. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>In the article headline, they called me a scammer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>In the article headline, they called me a scammer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>To this day Sam insists that he never scammed anyone. He says it’s a racist assumption that all Indian people online are scammers. We’ll hear his case in a new tab. That’s for after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, what makes a scammer? Don’t go anywhere. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>To this day Sam insists that he never scammed anyone. He says it’s a racist assumption that all Indian people online are scammers. We’ll hear his case in a new tab. That’s for after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, what makes a scammer? Don’t go anywhere. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: is Sam a scammer? After Ej’s story came out, people praised Sam as innovative and creative and a master of his craft. Even Trump supporters applauded his dedication to the hustle. Sam ate it up, but he was genuinely offended by the way everyone called him a scammer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: is Sam a scammer? After Ej’s story came out, people praised Sam as innovative and creative and a master of his craft. Even Trump supporters applauded his dedication to the hustle. Sam ate it up, but he was genuinely offended by the way everyone called him a scammer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t scam anyone. I disclosed people that they shouldn’t tip. I disclose people that they shouldn’t spend so much money on me. Like, didn’t have any bad intention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t scam anyone. I disclosed people that they shouldn’t tip. I disclose people that they shouldn’t spend so much money on me. Like, didn’t have any bad intention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A scammer, according to Merriam-Webster, is someone who participates in a fraudulent scheme. Cambridge Dictionary- someone who makes money using illegal methods by tricking people. Wikipedia- someone defrauds a person or group after gaining their trust. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A scammer, according to Merriam-Webster, is someone who participates in a fraudulent scheme. Cambridge Dictionary- someone who makes money using illegal methods by tricking people. Wikipedia- someone defrauds a person or group after gaining their trust. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I just want to make some money. You can say it’s not ethical, but it’s not a scam, like I didn’t do anything, you can say, illegal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I just want to make some money. You can say it’s not ethical, but it’s not a scam, like I didn’t do anything, you can say, illegal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam technically didn’t defraud anyone. While Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI generated, Sam did disclose it to subscribers on Fanvue, where he was actually making money. He said he had plenty of opportunities to scam Emily Hart subscribers. Multiple fans had offered to pay her thousands of dollars to meet in person, but Sam said he never took the money. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam technically didn’t defraud anyone. While Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI generated, Sam did disclose it to subscribers on Fanvue, where he was actually making money. He said he had plenty of opportunities to scam Emily Hart subscribers. Multiple fans had offered to pay her thousands of dollars to meet in person, but Sam said he never took the money. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People were like, we will pay for your plane ticket and please just come to California. We will have a dinner. Let’s have a dinner together and all that. Like, I could have easily taken their money. Like, I would have easily sent them, you can say, Bitcoin or like some, you can say, crypto link, but like, I was like, super clear with that. Like, I will not do anything wrong. And I knew that like, I can’t meet them in real life. They will just waive their money and I didn’t want that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People were like, we will pay for your plane ticket and please just come to California. We will have a dinner. Let’s have a dinner together and all that. Like, I could have easily taken their money. Like, I would have easily sent them, you can say, Bitcoin or like some, you can say, crypto link, but like, I was like, super clear with that. Like, I will not do anything wrong. And I knew that like, I can’t meet them in real life. They will just waive their money and I didn’t want that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam felt that the money he earned selling Fanvue subscriptions and pay-per-view content was earned, even if it was through AI-generated softcore porn. He disclosed that the content was AI, and he was providing something in return for their money. But he wasn’t comfortable accepting direct tips from Emily’s subscribers. He even sent some tips back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam felt that the money he earned selling Fanvue subscriptions and pay-per-view content was earned, even if it was through AI-generated softcore porn. He disclosed that the content was AI, and he was providing something in return for their money. But he wasn’t comfortable accepting direct tips from Emily’s subscribers. He even sent some tips back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>From New Jersey and like he was tipping me a lot and I wondered like why he’s tipping so much. I asked him like ‘why are you tipping me so much?’ He was tipping so much in hopes that I will meet him because my model was based in New York City and it was close to New Jersey so he was like, if I tip her so much, maybe she will come to meet me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>From New Jersey and like he was tipping me a lot and I wondered like why he’s tipping so much. I asked him like ‘why are you tipping me so much?’ He was tipping so much in hopes that I will meet him because my model was based in New York City and it was close to New Jersey so he was like, if I tip her so much, maybe she will come to meet me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Sam told the subscriber that Emily was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Sam told the subscriber that Emily was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I returned all the tip money. Then I was like, if you want to cancel the subscription, it’s completely fine with me. He was like no, like he didn’t even take all of the tip back. Like he tipped me $10 and he was like that, it’s okay. And like I returned the rest of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I returned all the tip money. Then I was like, if you want to cancel the subscription, it’s completely fine with me. He was like no, like he didn’t even take all of the tip back. Like he tipped me $10 and he was like that, it’s okay. And like I returned the rest of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was offended that he was being labeled a scammer,because in his eyes, if he had actually scammed people, he’d have a lot more money. He also said it feeds into some of the racist assumptions that many people online make about India. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was offended that he was being labeled a scammer,because in his eyes, if he had actually scammed people, he’d have a lot more money. He also said it feeds into some of the racist assumptions that many people online make about India. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There is a stereotype for Indian people, like, all the Indian people are scammers. Like, I didn’t want to do that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There is a stereotype for Indian people, like, all the Indian people are scammers. Like, I didn’t want to do that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India dominates the IT industry. The English-speaking world’s major tech support hubs are based in India. But as this booming market grew, the cyber scam economy exploded too. Callers often pose as tech support agents from Amazon or fraud investigators from major banks and persuade gullible victims to hand over remote access to their devices and accounts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India dominates the IT industry. The English-speaking world’s major tech support hubs are based in India. But as this booming market grew, the cyber scam economy exploded too. Callers often pose as tech support agents from Amazon or fraud investigators from major banks and persuade gullible victims to hand over remote access to their devices and accounts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, people in India, they scam them out of thousands of dollars and I really feel bad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, people in India, they scam them out of thousands of dollars and I really feel bad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s economic strain and rising unemployment rates are pushing more young people to work at cyber scam centers because no one else is hiring. And that has really affected Sam, especially when he tries to make friends online. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s economic strain and rising unemployment rates are pushing more young people to work at cyber scam centers because no one else is hiring. And that has really affected Sam, especially when he tries to make friends online. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>That hurt the Indian image so much that even like, I meet people online, I can’t even tell them that I am Indian. They straight out hate me. Like, you are a scammer, you know all that racial comments, and I am like, you haven’t even talked with me, you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>That hurt the Indian image so much that even like, I meet people online, I can’t even tell them that I am Indian. They straight out hate me. Like, you are a scammer, you know all that racial comments, and I am like, you haven’t even talked with me, you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He specifically tried to adhere to his own moral code with Emily Hart, in part because he’s aware of the scammer reputation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He specifically tried to adhere to his own moral code with Emily Hart, in part because he’s aware of the scammer reputation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I absolutely hate that, like it ruins the image of my country and I don’t like it at all. So I am like that, I am doing this and I will do this as ethically as possible. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I absolutely hate that, like it ruins the image of my country and I don’t like it at all. So I am like that, I am doing this and I will do this as ethically as possible. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So yes, Sam did dupe conservative men into following Emily Hart’s Instagram account. And he did build a following using racist, xenophobic, and downright offensive content. But when it comes to the question of whether he’s a scammer, sure, he profited off of the MAGA fantasy of a woman that doesn’t exist, but there were lines he refused to cross. And if subscribers tried to tip him more than the $5 subscription fee, he’d remind them that Emily Hart wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So yes, Sam did dupe conservative men into following Emily Hart’s Instagram account. And he did build a following using racist, xenophobic, and downright offensive content. But when it comes to the question of whether he’s a scammer, sure, he profited off of the MAGA fantasy of a woman that doesn’t exist, but there were lines he refused to cross. And if subscribers tried to tip him more than the $5 subscription fee, he’d remind them that Emily Hart wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The thing is, scamming is not a term in our legal system, unlike fraud and theft, which can be prosecuted. And Sam didn’t do either of those. So whether he’s a scammer is really a moral question. And we can’t really weigh in on that until we understand the other ways people are using AI to deceive and profit off of others. Which, of course, means opening a new tab: the AI Thirst Trap Griff. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The thing is, scamming is not a term in our legal system, unlike fraud and theft, which can be prosecuted. And Sam didn’t do either of those. So whether he’s a scammer is really a moral question. And we can’t really weigh in on that until we understand the other ways people are using AI to deceive and profit off of others. Which, of course, means opening a new tab: the AI Thirst Trap Griff. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>AI models took off for the general public in the early 2020s. And since then, the grifts have been booming. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>AI models took off for the general public in the early 2020s. And since then, the grifts have been booming. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a spectrum of this, of the AI influencer grift, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a spectrum of this, of the AI influencer grift, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej has been reporting on this a lot for Wired, tracking all the new developments in the AI-influencer world. The industry is thriving. It seems like there’s a new synthetic personality going viral every day. They dominate streaming charts with their AI-generated music. They represent brands as AI-generated models. They crank out YouTube videos and TikToks and Reels faster than any human influencer can. And, like Emily Hart, they even sell AI-generated nudes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej has been reporting on this a lot for Wired, tracking all the new developments in the AI-influencer world. The industry is thriving. It seems like there’s a new synthetic personality going viral every day. They dominate streaming charts with their AI-generated music. They represent brands as AI-generated models. They crank out YouTube videos and TikToks and Reels faster than any human influencer can. And, like Emily Hart, they even sell AI-generated nudes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think we’re at a point where low effort is being rewarded and there’s a premium put on it versus hard work. And like, there are a lot of especially younger people who think that the mark of success is basically making as much money with as little work as possible. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think we’re at a point where low effort is being rewarded and there’s a premium put on it versus hard work. And like, there are a lot of especially younger people who think that the mark of success is basically making as much money with as little work as possible. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And there’s one trend in the AI influencer space that really freaks Ej out. So Emily Hart is not necessarily based on a real human being. Sam generated her from scratch by prompting Gemini. You could argue that Gemini was trained using real people’s photos, and that there’s a chance that someone out there does look like her. But that’s a conversation for another deep dive. What actually concerns Ej is this growing trend of using AI to modify real women’s photos and videos. And selling them on adult content sites, entirely without their consent. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And there’s one trend in the AI influencer space that really freaks Ej out. So Emily Hart is not necessarily based on a real human being. Sam generated her from scratch by prompting Gemini. You could argue that Gemini was trained using real people’s photos, and that there’s a chance that someone out there does look like her. But that’s a conversation for another deep dive. What actually concerns Ej is this growing trend of using AI to modify real women’s photos and videos. And selling them on adult content sites, entirely without their consent. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I did a story about these 19-year-old boys who had developed this side hustle of taking random girls’ photos from Instagram, like private citizens, people with 1,000, 2,000 followers, not models or anything like that, and using nudify apps and posting sexual content of them on sites like Fanvue. And they were literally making YouTube tutorials and teaching men how to do this and how to make these photos, like what types of girls’ photos they should feed into the model to train it. It was really, really dark. And I think that we are headed for a future where that’s gonna become more normalized than not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I did a story about these 19-year-old boys who had developed this side hustle of taking random girls’ photos from Instagram, like private citizens, people with 1,000, 2,000 followers, not models or anything like that, and using nudify apps and posting sexual content of them on sites like Fanvue. And they were literally making YouTube tutorials and teaching men how to do this and how to make these photos, like what types of girls’ photos they should feed into the model to train it. It was really, really dark. And I think that we are headed for a future where that’s gonna become more normalized than not. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>YouTube is teeming with tutorials to get rich quick by using generative AI to make explicit content. Almost all of the tutorials are taught by men who are profiting off of AI content based on real women. Some people refer to this as digital pimping. Ej thinks that phrasing is actually too mild. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>YouTube is teeming with tutorials to get rich quick by using generative AI to make explicit content. Almost all of the tutorials are taught by men who are profiting off of AI content based on real women. Some people refer to this as digital pimping. Ej thinks that phrasing is actually too mild. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it’s digital exploitation. I think it is digital trafficking, essentially. These guys are really invested in creating a reality where women who do not consent to being sexualized at all can have anything they want done with their images. No matter how old they are, no matter where they work, what they do. These guys just use the internet as free reign to humiliate them, because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not about getting off. It’s about humiliation. It’s about the lack of consent is the point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it’s digital exploitation. I think it is digital trafficking, essentially. These guys are really invested in creating a reality where women who do not consent to being sexualized at all can have anything they want done with their images. No matter how old they are, no matter where they work, what they do. These guys just use the internet as free reign to humiliate them, because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not about getting off. It’s about humiliation. It’s about the lack of consent is the point. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then there’s this practice of using AI influencers as bait. Ej recently broke this big story about the gay dating app Goose. Goose was marketed as a wholesome social platform. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then there’s this practice of using AI influencers as bait. Ej recently broke this big story about the gay dating app Goose. Goose was marketed as a wholesome social platform. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Basically positioning it as a competitor to Grindr, except it would be less casual sex and hookup focused and more focused on socializing and making friends and forming real human connections. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Basically positioning it as a competitor to Grindr, except it would be less casual sex and hookup focused and more focused on socializing and making friends and forming real human connections. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Goose deployed a small army of hot gay influencers to recruit other gay men. These influencers would follow gay guys and add them to their Close Friends story or slide into their DMs with a “hey, you seem cool.” And eventually, they’d send an invite code to Goose. All of these influencers were AI-generated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Goose deployed a small army of hot gay influencers to recruit other gay men. These influencers would follow gay guys and add them to their Close Friends story or slide into their DMs with a “hey, you seem cool.” And eventually, they’d send an invite code to Goose. All of these influencers were AI-generated. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That was a big part of their marketing strategy, is making these very believable looking hot guy accounts with like 300, 400, 500 followers who like, worked in very realistic jobs. Like, one of the guys said he worked for Strava, like, another one of guys said he worked for like, David Zwirner Gallery. And that’s really convincing. And I think it really messed with a lot of people’s perceptions of reality and their ability to discern what is AI and what isn’t. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That was a big part of their marketing strategy, is making these very believable looking hot guy accounts with like 300, 400, 500 followers who like, worked in very realistic jobs. Like, one of the guys said he worked for Strava, like, another one of guys said he worked for like, David Zwirner Gallery. And that’s really convincing. And I think it really messed with a lot of people’s perceptions of reality and their ability to discern what is AI and what isn’t. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej said she could understand why people fell for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej said she could understand why people fell for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>In order to get on Goose, because it’s invite only at this point, and you obviously have to be a gay man to join it, I made my own AI-generated hot guy influencer account. I was trying to make it really convincing. So I was like, give him beards, give him tattoos, like, make him live in Crown Heights, make him be like, a record producer/engineer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>In order to get on Goose, because it’s invite only at this point, and you obviously have to be a gay man to join it, I made my own AI-generated hot guy influencer account. I was trying to make it really convincing. So I was like, give him beards, give him tattoos, like, make him live in Crown Heights, make him be like, a record producer/engineer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the more that I was like, generating these photos and generating this guy’s biography, I was like, oh my God, I’ve made the hottest man in the world. Like, I would absolutely have sex with this. Honestly, and this is a huge compliment to my husband. Like, he looked a lot like my husband, so even I, like, for a split second, was kind of deceived by the too-good-to-be-true element of AI, at least momentarily. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the more that I was like, generating these photos and generating this guy’s biography, I was like, oh my God, I’ve made the hottest man in the world. Like, I would absolutely have sex with this. Honestly, and this is a huge compliment to my husband. Like, he looked a lot like my husband, so even I, like, for a split second, was kind of deceived by the too-good-to-be-true element of AI, at least momentarily. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Compared to other examples Ej just talked about, was what Sam did really that bad? There’s a spectrum of AI thirst trap grifts. Ultimately, Sam did profit off of Emily Hart, but was he causing harm to anyone? That’s less clear. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Compared to other examples Ej just talked about, was what Sam did really that bad? There’s a spectrum of AI thirst trap grifts. Ultimately, Sam did profit off of Emily Hart, but was he causing harm to anyone? That’s less clear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And then on the other hand, you have those evil motherf*ckers who are posting YouTube tutorials to young men teaching them how to take some high school girls’ photo off of Instagram and run her through a nudify app and make money off that. And the technology is getting better every day. It’s just getting easier and easier and easier and easier to do. It took me five minutes to make my hot gay man thirst trap guy. For Goose, it took the guys who were posting those YouTube tutorials, they were saying it took them 10 minutes. I think six months ago, the question would have been is the juice worth the squeeze? And now, like, there is no squeeze, you know? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And then on the other hand, you have those evil motherf*ckers who are posting YouTube tutorials to young men teaching them how to take some high school girls’ photo off of Instagram and run her through a nudify app and make money off that. And the technology is getting better every day. It’s just getting easier and easier and easier and easier to do. It took me five minutes to make my hot gay man thirst trap guy. For Goose, it took the guys who were posting those YouTube tutorials, they were saying it took them 10 minutes. I think six months ago, the question would have been is the juice worth the squeeze? And now, like, there is no squeeze, you know? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, the squeeze is no longer worth it for Sam. After Emily Hart’s account was banned for good, Sam tried to make another. But he found that, somehow, Meta banded him too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, the squeeze is no longer worth it for Sam. After Emily Hart’s account was banned for good, Sam tried to make another. But he found that, somehow, Meta banded him too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Even now my phone is blacklisted. If I use another number it will be blacklisted. So I cannot even create an Instagram account. Even if it’s not for all this like, Like, I created another Instagram account for personal use stuff and it deletes it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Even now my phone is blacklisted. If I use another number it will be blacklisted. So I cannot even create an Instagram account. Even if it’s not for all this like, Like, I created another Instagram account for personal use stuff and it deletes it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As lucrative as Emily Hart was, Sam’s kind of over the whole thing anyway. He doesn’t want to deal with the creeps, and he’s tired of pretending to be racist for engagement. And he’s got other stuff going on in his life. He’s about to graduate from medical school. His whole university career, he dreamed of moving to the U.S. It was going to be his ticket out of India’s economic crisis and caste system. But, this whole ordeal with Emily Hart combined with other factors, has him second-guessing his life plan. That’s a new tab: should I move to America? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As lucrative as Emily Hart was, Sam’s kind of over the whole thing anyway. He doesn’t want to deal with the creeps, and he’s tired of pretending to be racist for engagement. And he’s got other stuff going on in his life. He’s about to graduate from medical school. His whole university career, he dreamed of moving to the U.S. It was going to be his ticket out of India’s economic crisis and caste system. But, this whole ordeal with Emily Hart combined with other factors, has him second-guessing his life plan. That’s a new tab: should I move to America? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sam had mapped out his entire career strategy when he started university, making sure to check all the boxes required to land a residency match in the U.S., which is already competitive, but even more so for international students. But he was determined. The United States Medical Licensing Exam is an incredibly rigorous process. It’s split into three parts over multiple years. Step one, which students take during their first years of medical school, is eight hours long. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sam had mapped out his entire career strategy when he started university, making sure to check all the boxes required to land a residency match in the U.S., which is already competitive, but even more so for international students. But he was determined. The United States Medical Licensing Exam is an incredibly rigorous process. It’s split into three parts over multiple years. Step one, which students take during their first years of medical school, is eight hours long. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I cleared it in my first attempt, like, you only get one chance and I cleared it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I cleared it in my first attempt, like, you only get one chance and I cleared it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>According to his plan, he should be taking step two soon. But since clearing the first exam, he’s watched immigration to the U.S. Become more and more difficult under the Trump administration. And now he’s rethinking his plan. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>According to his plan, he should be taking step two soon. But since clearing the first exam, he’s watched immigration to the U.S. Become more and more difficult under the Trump administration. And now he’s rethinking his plan. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, Donald Trump has made it so difficult to, even if you’re talented, they don’t want you. Even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. He did like hundreds of policy changes, like, every day he wakes up, he do a policy change. It’s like, you know you can’t predict him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, Donald Trump has made it so difficult to, even if you’re talented, they don’t want you. Even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. He did like hundreds of policy changes, like, every day he wakes up, he do a policy change. It’s like, you know you can’t predict him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Trump administration’s immigration policies have wreaked havoc on the medical training system, from implementing strict time limits on visas for trainees, to stalling visa renewals for doctors who are already practicing here. There’s also the $100,000 entry fee for H-1B visa holders, which a lot of rural hospitals just can’t afford. And amid the constant flux in the White House’s policies, ICE officers have targeted, detained, and deported immigrants, even if their visas are still valid. Sam has watched it all unfold while finishing school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Trump administration’s immigration policies have wreaked havoc on the medical training system, from implementing strict time limits on visas for trainees, to stalling visa renewals for doctors who are already practicing here. There’s also the $100,000 entry fee for H-1B visa holders, which a lot of rural hospitals just can’t afford. And amid the constant flux in the White House’s policies, ICE officers have targeted, detained, and deported immigrants, even if their visas are still valid. Sam has watched it all unfold while finishing school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And one day, I was like, it’s enough, I give up, like, I don’t want to gamble with my future. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And one day, I was like, it’s enough, I give up, like, I don’t want to gamble with my future. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And, immigration policies aside, his interactions with Americans, as Emily Hart, have soured his opinion of the U.S. He did choose to pander to people who have extremely racist and xenophobic stances, and he did stoke these viewpoints with Emily’s content. But at the same time, it wasn’t lost on him that if these followers knew who he really was, he’d probably be the target of their vitriol too. He said that a lot of these interactions reinforced his beliefs about conservative America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And, immigration policies aside, his interactions with Americans, as Emily Hart, have soured his opinion of the U.S. He did choose to pander to people who have extremely racist and xenophobic stances, and he did stoke these viewpoints with Emily’s content. But at the same time, it wasn’t lost on him that if these followers knew who he really was, he’d probably be the target of their vitriol too. He said that a lot of these interactions reinforced his beliefs about conservative America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but you know, stereotype doesn’t write themselves, okay? Like, stereotype exists for a reason. I learned that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but you know, stereotype doesn’t write themselves, okay? Like, stereotype exists for a reason. I learned that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So making it in America, the land of opportunity and Grand Theft Auto, is no longer Sam’s goal. He said many of his classmates feel the same way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So making it in America, the land of opportunity and Grand Theft Auto, is no longer Sam’s goal. He said many of his classmates feel the same way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Because of this, many of the talented people are going to countries like Japan, Germany, like, good European countries, like,even UAE. People are saying, don’t go to the United States. And even after all this, you have to face racism on that. It’s not worth it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Because of this, many of the talented people are going to countries like Japan, Germany, like, good European countries, like,even UAE. People are saying, don’t go to the United States. And even after all this, you have to face racism on that. It’s not worth it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam considered trying to get into a specialty training program in other English-speaking countries, but he’s not sure of that either. The political climates in those countries aren’t the most welcoming right now. The UK has tightened its visa pathways and increased restrictions for international workers. And Australia recently placed Indian students in the high-risk visa category. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam considered trying to get into a specialty training program in other English-speaking countries, but he’s not sure of that either. The political climates in those countries aren’t the most welcoming right now. The UK has tightened its visa pathways and increased restrictions for international workers. And Australia recently placed Indian students in the high-risk visa category. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, nobody is willing to accept Indians, but the sentiment is very anti-immigration right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, nobody is willing to accept Indians, but the sentiment is very anti-immigration right now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It wasn’t worth it for Sam to maintain Emily Hart’s Fanvue without having an Instagram to direct traffic to it. But he does still need to make money. And since he’s studying six to eight hours a day on top of his clinical work, he doesn’t have time for a nine to five. A few weeks ago, Sam started working on what he calls a more ethical version of Emily Hart, helping brands create AI influencers to promote their products. He doubts it’ll be as financially rewarding as Emily Hart. It’s essentially a marketing gig, which he said was kind of boring. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It wasn’t worth it for Sam to maintain Emily Hart’s Fanvue without having an Instagram to direct traffic to it. But he does still need to make money. And since he’s studying six to eight hours a day on top of his clinical work, he doesn’t have time for a nine to five. A few weeks ago, Sam started working on what he calls a more ethical version of Emily Hart, helping brands create AI influencers to promote their products. He doubts it’ll be as financially rewarding as Emily Hart. It’s essentially a marketing gig, which he said was kind of boring. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Emily was another level of fun, it was like, you know, you get an adrenaline rush every day, you see like 2000 followers are adding up, there are people tipping on you, there are are people that are going crazy for you, or like people are copying you. It was a whole different level of, you can say, fun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Emily was another level of fun, it was like, you know, you get an adrenaline rush every day, you see like 2000 followers are adding up, there are people tipping on you, there are are people that are going crazy for you, or like people are copying you. It was a whole different level of, you can say, fun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> I used to think that you can, you know, easily make good amount of money effortlessly. All this AI creator and stuff didn’t take a lot of effort. It was hardly 15 to 30 minutes a day of work. And actually, it made a good amount of money. But what I concluded is that like, you cannot make a good amount money consistently without putting in effort. That’s my takeaway. If it feels too good to be true, then it is too good to be true.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive into the saga of Emily Hart, and, more importantly, the story of the real guy who created her. Special thanks to Sam and Ej for sharing this with us. We have opened so many tabs for this series, but if you feel like you still need to open more, we’ll link to some further reading in the show notes. And as usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay. It’s finally time, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive into the saga of Emily Hart, and, more importantly, the story of the real guy who created her. Special thanks to Sam and Ej for sharing this with us. We have opened so many tabs for this series, but if you feel like you still need to open more, we’ll link to some further reading in the show notes. And as usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay. It’s finally time, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Lauren Yoon is our intern and was also the associate producer on this episode. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. This episode also includes clips from The View, Fox & Friends, and Hot 97. It also includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The downfall of a MAGA dream girl and the rise of an industry built around generating fake influencers.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Emily Hart, the bikini-wearing right-wing AI influencer, had captured the hearts, minds and more of MAGA men online. But her creator, Sam, had grown sick of the creepy messages and unsolicited explicit photos he’d received from Emily’s adoring fans. And he was about to be outed as a “scammer.” In this follow-up to last week’s episode, we dig into the downfall of the MAGA dream girl, the explosion of AI “thirst” grifts and why Sam says he shouldn’t be labeled as a “scammer” at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2485498705\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a>— Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/goose-a-new-gay-dating-app-appears-to-be-a-psyop/\">Goose, a New Gay Dating App, Appears to Be a Psyop\u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://inkstickmedia.com/how-indias-cyber-scam-industry-causes-global-havoc/\">How India’s Cyber Scam Industry Causes Global Havoc\u003c/a> — Hanan Zaffar, \u003cem>Inkstick\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-pimping-industry-deepfakes-instagram/\">Inside the Booming ‘AI Pimping’ Industry\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler and Emanuel Maiberg, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://kffhealthnews.org/health-industry/hhs-exchange-visitor-program-visa-waiver-j1-h1b-delays-foreign-doctors-deadline/\">Delays in Visa Program Threaten Placement of Hundreds of Doctors in Underserved Areas\u003c/a> — Arielle Zionts, \u003cem>KFF Health News \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2026/06/11/white-house-wants-more-doctors-but-its-immigration-policies-block-them/\">White House Wants More Doctors But Its Immigration Policies Block Them\u003c/a> — Stuart Anderson, \u003cem>Forbes\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/foreign-medical-residents-fill-critical-positions-at-u-s-hospitals-but-many-now-face-visa-issues\">Foreign medical residents fill critical positions at U.S. hospitals, but many now face visa issues\u003c/a> — Adithi Ramakrishnan and Devi Shastri, \u003cem>PBS News\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.business-standard.com/immigration/indians-lead-uk-exit-wave-as-britain-s-migration-crackdown-begins-to-bite-126052200275_1.html\">Indians lead UK exit wave as Britain’s migration crackdown begins to bite | Immigration News\u003c/a> — Sunainaa Chadha, \u003cem>Business Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do they help you learn about all the chronically online things you’re too scared to Google at work? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. So this is actually the second part of our series on the saga of Emily Hart, an AI MAGA influencer, and Sam, the guy who created her. If you haven’t heard part one yet, check out last week’s episode. And just a heads up, this episode contains mentions of explicit sexual content. So listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We first met Sam in last week episode. He’s a 22 year old medical student from India, and he had been chasing side hustles in order to make extra cash while in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I needed some extra pocket money. I started first with YouTube shorts. I started making AI horror shorts, then Roblox, but like it didn’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was by far his most lucrative venture. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Emily Hart] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Hey, handsome, in this private ward, there are no supervisors and no rules. Just me, you, and whatever happens when these scrubs finally come off. \u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She was the MAGA dream girl. And she was completely AI-generated. She rapidly gained a following thanks to her Trump-supporting thirst traps. Every time Sam posted images of her ice fishing, shooting rifles, drinking beer, complete with an American flag bikini and bright red MAGA hat, her fans went wild. In just a few weeks, Emily had 15,000 followers on Instagram, over 20 million views on Reels and a small army of subscribers on FanView. That’s a site kind of like OnlyFans. And these guys literally paid to DM her. Well, really, paid to DM Sam. They didn’t know it was him, but they also didn’t seem to care that Emily wasn’t real. Sam was making a couple thousand dollars a month, so he wasn’t quite rolling in it, but that’s really good money for a student in India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Initially, I enjoyed it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What made it at less enjoyable for you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Actually it was a bit strange. It was a bit creepy like other male is talking to me in like, that way. It felt weird. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was getting sick of it. It started with the unsolicited dick pics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the unsolicited cum tributes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I’m like, what the hell is this guy doing? He sent me the video. And I was like, people do all these weird things. Like, it was super creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily, who was really Sam, was dealing with some real creeps. Like, there is this one guy who wouldn’t stop harassing her account. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>He used to call me. He used to call me on Instagram, he used to like, call me 10 times, like, ‘why aren’t you picking up? You shouldn’t disrespect someone like that,’ like, I muted him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When Sam ignored him, the guy sent a nude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>After like 10 missed calls, he just sent that pic. I was like, Why are you sending it? Like, are you thinking that seeing this, I will call you or something? As a male, I can say like, many males are like, super creepy and I hate such men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that was just the start of it. Emily Hart was a success, but Sam was starting to get uncomfortable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like my DMs are filled every day, I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then… Instagram flagged Emily’s account, and that was the beginning of the end. Today, we’re diving into the rest of Sam’s story, from the Instagram bans to the scammer accusations to what happened with his lifelong dream of moving to America. And we’ll take a look at some other AI grifts as we try to answer the big question. Is it fair to call Sam a scammer? Buckle up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Before we get into the other questions, let’s talk about the rest of Emily’s story. Unfortunately, her ending is not a happy one. That’s our first half: the death of Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the peak of her popularity, Emily Hart was gaining about 2,000 followers a day. Sam was on top of the world. But then Instagram started picking up on some suspicious behavior in Emily’s DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So like initially, like Instagram, I used to message people. I didn’t do that. Instagram reads all the DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Not only does Instagram monitor DMs, but it also does not allow adult content. And it doesn’t allow users to advertise adult content Even mentioning OnlyFans can get you banned. Sex workers usually bury links to their paywalled explicit content within a sea of other links, three or four clicks deep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t know that, I sent a link to my Fanvue personally in DM, and like Instagram flagged my account instantly, like within 5-10 minutes, my account got flagged, it got banned, like I cannot use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Panicked, Sam got in touch with Meta and appealed the ban. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They asked for my personal ID and my mobile number, my email, all my personal information. And like my account got recovered the next day. And then it was flagged again, like two, five days after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He wasn’t sure what triggered the second ban, but it could have been for a number of reasons. He didn’t disclose that the account was AI, which goes against Instagram’s policies. He avoided even mentioning Emily’s Fanvue, but Meta could have flagged her account anyway using data about Sam’s internet usage. That happens to human sex workers all the time. Sam appealed again and, again, managed to recover Emily’s account. But then, about a month later, on the night of Valentine’s Day…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> it was like, boom, it’s over, they deleted my account, they don’t even give me the reason. It was just written that you don’t follow our community guidelines, that’s why we are suspending your account. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But then Sam remembered one certain post. And if he hadn’t already racked up a history of bans, Meta may have let this one slide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was the death by a thousand cuts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Ej Dickson, who first reported the story for Wired. Well, the Instagram guidelines require that creators disclose whether or not their profiles are AI-generated, and he wasn’t kicked off for violating that. He was kicked off for basically leaning into MAGA hatred too much, which I kind of thought was funny in a really dark way. Like he posted something really racist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re not going to repeat what the post said, but here’s how Sam explained why he did it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t hate African American people like, but it’s generally like, MAGA people don’t like them as much. MAGA people were like, super racist. Okay? So like I thought that like if I make an racially inappropriate joke for like, I thought that people would appreciate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He girlbossed too close to the sun, basically. And that’s what got him kicked off, not the fact that it was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s audience loved Sam’s posts about deporting immigrants and demonizing abortion. But this went too far for even them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Instagram is basically racism app. It’s like, filled with racism. And like, people appreciate it in comment section. Like people make jokes of it. But one thing that was super surprising for me is that like when I posted it, like even the MAGA people like, no one supported me, not like, even a single guy supported me. And people were like this is straight out racism. And people mass reported that reel and it got my Threads account banned. So it was surprising for me that people didn’t entertain that racism. It felt good. Like, at least people are not like, that racist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam tried to appeal it, like he did with previous bans, but Emily Hart’s Instagram account was gone forever. It was particularly devastating because he had been chasing side hustles for months, and this was the one that finally paid off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I was super upset, like I tried many things, like 10 things, 15 things and finally there was a hope, like there is this thing that worked out for me. There is thing like, that I figured out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He didn’t have much time to dwell on it, though. The big entrance exam for Indian medical specialty programs was just a few months away, so he had to lock in and study. And then, he had to navigate a different kind of internet fame. Ej’s wired story about Emily Hart was published shortly after the final Instagram ban. And it became even more viral than Emily herself. Ej expected some backlash from the MAGA crowd. After all, the headline of her story was literally “This scammer used an AI-generated MAGA girl to grift super dumb men.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>But a really interesting thing happened after the story came out where even MAGA accounts were reposting it being like, ‘Good for this guy!’ Like, applauding his efforts to scam, basically. There were some people who were saying like, incredibly racist things about brown people, but in the same breath were like, but honestly, good for this guy. If this is what these guys are capable of, like,more of them should come over here. That was a sentiment I saw more than once. And it’s a disgusting sentiment, right? It’s a despicable sentiment, but I was very surprised to see that even the people who were being duped by this guy were applauding the level of grift that it took to dupe them. I mean, that’s what they were doing. There were a couple of people who were mad, but for the most part, they were like, this guy? Good for him, you know, game-recognize-game. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam also loved Ej’s story. He said he sent it to all of his friends. And even though his name and identity were kept anonymous, for a brief moment, he was kind of a celebrity online. This story was everywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from an episode of The View ] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Joy Behar: So-called MAGA men, they were drooling over a social media personality named Emily Hart, a cute little blonde who would post pro-Trump content and even send bikini photos if people paid for it. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Fox and Friends] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Kurt ‘CyberGuy’ Knutsson: I mean, this is catfishing on steroids, period. And you can see why the guys fell for her. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from HOT 97 TV News] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: She is not real. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Wait, what? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is AI. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith:Oh, wow. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Lana Harris: That is A.I. Turns out this is a viral MAGA influencer and she was ran by a med student from India. \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Million: What? \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Ronndell Smith: Oh, he’s so smart. So smart. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, I read thousands of comments, and people were appreciating. Like, give this guy a green card. You know, give the guy a citizen. It’s an example of good Indian, we need them in the USA. And people were super appreciating like, that he’s just smart, MAGA are dumb. Like, it’s not his fault if people are dumb. It’s a super genius idea. I should have thought of that. It was a very positive reaction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, he did have an issue with one part of the article. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>In the article headline, they called me a scammer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>To this day Sam insists that he never scammed anyone. He says it’s a racist assumption that all Indian people online are scammers. We’ll hear his case in a new tab. That’s for after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, what makes a scammer? Don’t go anywhere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: is Sam a scammer? After Ej’s story came out, people praised Sam as innovative and creative and a master of his craft. Even Trump supporters applauded his dedication to the hustle. Sam ate it up, but he was genuinely offended by the way everyone called him a scammer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I didn’t scam anyone. I disclosed people that they shouldn’t tip. I disclose people that they shouldn’t spend so much money on me. Like, didn’t have any bad intention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A scammer, according to Merriam-Webster, is someone who participates in a fraudulent scheme. Cambridge Dictionary- someone who makes money using illegal methods by tricking people. Wikipedia- someone defrauds a person or group after gaining their trust. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I just want to make some money. You can say it’s not ethical, but it’s not a scam, like I didn’t do anything, you can say, illegal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam technically didn’t defraud anyone. While Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI generated, Sam did disclose it to subscribers on Fanvue, where he was actually making money. He said he had plenty of opportunities to scam Emily Hart subscribers. Multiple fans had offered to pay her thousands of dollars to meet in person, but Sam said he never took the money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People were like, we will pay for your plane ticket and please just come to California. We will have a dinner. Let’s have a dinner together and all that. Like, I could have easily taken their money. Like, I would have easily sent them, you can say, Bitcoin or like some, you can say, crypto link, but like, I was like, super clear with that. Like, I will not do anything wrong. And I knew that like, I can’t meet them in real life. They will just waive their money and I didn’t want that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam felt that the money he earned selling Fanvue subscriptions and pay-per-view content was earned, even if it was through AI-generated softcore porn. He disclosed that the content was AI, and he was providing something in return for their money. But he wasn’t comfortable accepting direct tips from Emily’s subscribers. He even sent some tips back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>From New Jersey and like he was tipping me a lot and I wondered like why he’s tipping so much. I asked him like ‘why are you tipping me so much?’ He was tipping so much in hopes that I will meet him because my model was based in New York City and it was close to New Jersey so he was like, if I tip her so much, maybe she will come to meet me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Sam told the subscriber that Emily was AI generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I returned all the tip money. Then I was like, if you want to cancel the subscription, it’s completely fine with me. He was like no, like he didn’t even take all of the tip back. Like he tipped me $10 and he was like that, it’s okay. And like I returned the rest of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was offended that he was being labeled a scammer,because in his eyes, if he had actually scammed people, he’d have a lot more money. He also said it feeds into some of the racist assumptions that many people online make about India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There is a stereotype for Indian people, like, all the Indian people are scammers. Like, I didn’t want to do that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India dominates the IT industry. The English-speaking world’s major tech support hubs are based in India. But as this booming market grew, the cyber scam economy exploded too. Callers often pose as tech support agents from Amazon or fraud investigators from major banks and persuade gullible victims to hand over remote access to their devices and accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, people in India, they scam them out of thousands of dollars and I really feel bad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s economic strain and rising unemployment rates are pushing more young people to work at cyber scam centers because no one else is hiring. And that has really affected Sam, especially when he tries to make friends online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>That hurt the Indian image so much that even like, I meet people online, I can’t even tell them that I am Indian. They straight out hate me. Like, you are a scammer, you know all that racial comments, and I am like, you haven’t even talked with me, you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He specifically tried to adhere to his own moral code with Emily Hart, in part because he’s aware of the scammer reputation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And I absolutely hate that, like it ruins the image of my country and I don’t like it at all. So I am like that, I am doing this and I will do this as ethically as possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So yes, Sam did dupe conservative men into following Emily Hart’s Instagram account. And he did build a following using racist, xenophobic, and downright offensive content. But when it comes to the question of whether he’s a scammer, sure, he profited off of the MAGA fantasy of a woman that doesn’t exist, but there were lines he refused to cross. And if subscribers tried to tip him more than the $5 subscription fee, he’d remind them that Emily Hart wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The thing is, scamming is not a term in our legal system, unlike fraud and theft, which can be prosecuted. And Sam didn’t do either of those. So whether he’s a scammer is really a moral question. And we can’t really weigh in on that until we understand the other ways people are using AI to deceive and profit off of others. Which, of course, means opening a new tab: the AI Thirst Trap Griff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI models took off for the general public in the early 2020s. And since then, the grifts have been booming. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a spectrum of this, of the AI influencer grift, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej has been reporting on this a lot for Wired, tracking all the new developments in the AI-influencer world. The industry is thriving. It seems like there’s a new synthetic personality going viral every day. They dominate streaming charts with their AI-generated music. They represent brands as AI-generated models. They crank out YouTube videos and TikToks and Reels faster than any human influencer can. And, like Emily Hart, they even sell AI-generated nudes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think we’re at a point where low effort is being rewarded and there’s a premium put on it versus hard work. And like, there are a lot of especially younger people who think that the mark of success is basically making as much money with as little work as possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And there’s one trend in the AI influencer space that really freaks Ej out. So Emily Hart is not necessarily based on a real human being. Sam generated her from scratch by prompting Gemini. You could argue that Gemini was trained using real people’s photos, and that there’s a chance that someone out there does look like her. But that’s a conversation for another deep dive. What actually concerns Ej is this growing trend of using AI to modify real women’s photos and videos. And selling them on adult content sites, entirely without their consent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I did a story about these 19-year-old boys who had developed this side hustle of taking random girls’ photos from Instagram, like private citizens, people with 1,000, 2,000 followers, not models or anything like that, and using nudify apps and posting sexual content of them on sites like Fanvue. And they were literally making YouTube tutorials and teaching men how to do this and how to make these photos, like what types of girls’ photos they should feed into the model to train it. It was really, really dark. And I think that we are headed for a future where that’s gonna become more normalized than not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>YouTube is teeming with tutorials to get rich quick by using generative AI to make explicit content. Almost all of the tutorials are taught by men who are profiting off of AI content based on real women. Some people refer to this as digital pimping. Ej thinks that phrasing is actually too mild. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it’s digital exploitation. I think it is digital trafficking, essentially. These guys are really invested in creating a reality where women who do not consent to being sexualized at all can have anything they want done with their images. No matter how old they are, no matter where they work, what they do. These guys just use the internet as free reign to humiliate them, because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not about getting off. It’s about humiliation. It’s about the lack of consent is the point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then there’s this practice of using AI influencers as bait. Ej recently broke this big story about the gay dating app Goose. Goose was marketed as a wholesome social platform. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Basically positioning it as a competitor to Grindr, except it would be less casual sex and hookup focused and more focused on socializing and making friends and forming real human connections. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Goose deployed a small army of hot gay influencers to recruit other gay men. These influencers would follow gay guys and add them to their Close Friends story or slide into their DMs with a “hey, you seem cool.” And eventually, they’d send an invite code to Goose. All of these influencers were AI-generated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That was a big part of their marketing strategy, is making these very believable looking hot guy accounts with like 300, 400, 500 followers who like, worked in very realistic jobs. Like, one of the guys said he worked for Strava, like, another one of guys said he worked for like, David Zwirner Gallery. And that’s really convincing. And I think it really messed with a lot of people’s perceptions of reality and their ability to discern what is AI and what isn’t. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej said she could understand why people fell for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>In order to get on Goose, because it’s invite only at this point, and you obviously have to be a gay man to join it, I made my own AI-generated hot guy influencer account. I was trying to make it really convincing. So I was like, give him beards, give him tattoos, like, make him live in Crown Heights, make him be like, a record producer/engineer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more that I was like, generating these photos and generating this guy’s biography, I was like, oh my God, I’ve made the hottest man in the world. Like, I would absolutely have sex with this. Honestly, and this is a huge compliment to my husband. Like, he looked a lot like my husband, so even I, like, for a split second, was kind of deceived by the too-good-to-be-true element of AI, at least momentarily. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Compared to other examples Ej just talked about, was what Sam did really that bad? There’s a spectrum of AI thirst trap grifts. Ultimately, Sam did profit off of Emily Hart, but was he causing harm to anyone? That’s less clear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And then on the other hand, you have those evil motherf*ckers who are posting YouTube tutorials to young men teaching them how to take some high school girls’ photo off of Instagram and run her through a nudify app and make money off that. And the technology is getting better every day. It’s just getting easier and easier and easier and easier to do. It took me five minutes to make my hot gay man thirst trap guy. For Goose, it took the guys who were posting those YouTube tutorials, they were saying it took them 10 minutes. I think six months ago, the question would have been is the juice worth the squeeze? And now, like, there is no squeeze, you know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, the squeeze is no longer worth it for Sam. After Emily Hart’s account was banned for good, Sam tried to make another. But he found that, somehow, Meta banded him too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Even now my phone is blacklisted. If I use another number it will be blacklisted. So I cannot even create an Instagram account. Even if it’s not for all this like, Like, I created another Instagram account for personal use stuff and it deletes it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As lucrative as Emily Hart was, Sam’s kind of over the whole thing anyway. He doesn’t want to deal with the creeps, and he’s tired of pretending to be racist for engagement. And he’s got other stuff going on in his life. He’s about to graduate from medical school. His whole university career, he dreamed of moving to the U.S. It was going to be his ticket out of India’s economic crisis and caste system. But, this whole ordeal with Emily Hart combined with other factors, has him second-guessing his life plan. That’s a new tab: should I move to America? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sam had mapped out his entire career strategy when he started university, making sure to check all the boxes required to land a residency match in the U.S., which is already competitive, but even more so for international students. But he was determined. The United States Medical Licensing Exam is an incredibly rigorous process. It’s split into three parts over multiple years. Step one, which students take during their first years of medical school, is eight hours long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I cleared it in my first attempt, like, you only get one chance and I cleared it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>According to his plan, he should be taking step two soon. But since clearing the first exam, he’s watched immigration to the U.S. Become more and more difficult under the Trump administration. And now he’s rethinking his plan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, Donald Trump has made it so difficult to, even if you’re talented, they don’t want you. Even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. He did like hundreds of policy changes, like, every day he wakes up, he do a policy change. It’s like, you know you can’t predict him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Trump administration’s immigration policies have wreaked havoc on the medical training system, from implementing strict time limits on visas for trainees, to stalling visa renewals for doctors who are already practicing here. There’s also the $100,000 entry fee for H-1B visa holders, which a lot of rural hospitals just can’t afford. And amid the constant flux in the White House’s policies, ICE officers have targeted, detained, and deported immigrants, even if their visas are still valid. Sam has watched it all unfold while finishing school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And one day, I was like, it’s enough, I give up, like, I don’t want to gamble with my future. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And, immigration policies aside, his interactions with Americans, as Emily Hart, have soured his opinion of the U.S. He did choose to pander to people who have extremely racist and xenophobic stances, and he did stoke these viewpoints with Emily’s content. But at the same time, it wasn’t lost on him that if these followers knew who he really was, he’d probably be the target of their vitriol too. He said that a lot of these interactions reinforced his beliefs about conservative America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but you know, stereotype doesn’t write themselves, okay? Like, stereotype exists for a reason. I learned that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So making it in America, the land of opportunity and Grand Theft Auto, is no longer Sam’s goal. He said many of his classmates feel the same way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Because of this, many of the talented people are going to countries like Japan, Germany, like, good European countries, like,even UAE. People are saying, don’t go to the United States. And even after all this, you have to face racism on that. It’s not worth it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam considered trying to get into a specialty training program in other English-speaking countries, but he’s not sure of that either. The political climates in those countries aren’t the most welcoming right now. The UK has tightened its visa pathways and increased restrictions for international workers. And Australia recently placed Indian students in the high-risk visa category. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, nobody is willing to accept Indians, but the sentiment is very anti-immigration right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam said a lot of young people would actually want to stay in India if it weren’t for the caste system and tanking job market. He said that the reservation system, which was designed to uplift the most oppressed castes, leaves the middle class to compete for opportunities with the ultra-wealthy. But despite all his gripes with his home country and his lifelong dream of getting out, he is actually planning to stay for now. He scrapped his U.S. Immigration plans. Instead, he’s been studying for the big national entrance exam for India’s medical post-grad programs. He’s sitting for it at the end of the month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It wasn’t worth it for Sam to maintain Emily Hart’s Fanvue without having an Instagram to direct traffic to it. But he does still need to make money. And since he’s studying six to eight hours a day on top of his clinical work, he doesn’t have time for a nine to five. A few weeks ago, Sam started working on what he calls a more ethical version of Emily Hart, helping brands create AI influencers to promote their products. He doubts it’ll be as financially rewarding as Emily Hart. It’s essentially a marketing gig, which he said was kind of boring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like Emily was another level of fun, it was like, you know, you get an adrenaline rush every day, you see like 2000 followers are adding up, there are people tipping on you, there are are people that are going crazy for you, or like people are copying you. It was a whole different level of, you can say, fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But even if he could get around the meta ban, Sam has zero interest in attempting to create another Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> I used to think that you can, you know, easily make good amount of money effortlessly. All this AI creator and stuff didn’t take a lot of effort. It was hardly 15 to 30 minutes a day of work. And actually, it made a good amount of money. But what I concluded is that like, you cannot make a good amount money consistently without putting in effort. That’s my takeaway. If it feels too good to be true, then it is too good to be true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive into the saga of Emily Hart, and, more importantly, the story of the real guy who created her. Special thanks to Sam and Ej for sharing this with us. We have opened so many tabs for this series, but if you feel like you still need to open more, we’ll link to some further reading in the show notes. And as usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay. It’s finally time, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Lauren Yoon is our intern and was also the associate producer on this episode. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. This episode also includes clips from The View, Fox & Friends, and Hot 97. It also includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, I’ve tried a lot of things like trading bots, like stock market and stuff. I got good success in that, but then I lost a lot of money, I lost $1,000 in stock market, then I quit it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8396912565\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/ai-generated-influencers-a-new-wave-of-cultural-exploitation-248956\">AI‑generated influencers: A new wave of cultural exploitation\u003c/a> — Ateqah Khaki & Vinita Srivastava, \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-brandi-love-the-pro-trump-porn-star-who-writes-for-the-federalist/\">Meet Brandi Love, the Pro-Trump Porn Star Who Writes for The Federalist\u003c/a> — Marlow Stern, \u003cem>The Daily Beast \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theworld.org/stories/2026/06/19/challenges-under-indias-university-reservation-system\">Challenges under India’s university reservation system \u003c/a> — Namrata Kolachalam, \u003cem>The World \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabby Cats, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends — post about it. You too, can be part of our volunteer clipping army. We can’t let the looksmaxxers win the clip wars. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains some graphic descriptions of sexual content, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>So, Emily Hart was a 23-year-old nurse, I believe? Born in Buffalo, lived in New York City, who loved ice fishing and Michelob Light and America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej Dickson is a reporter for Wired. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>My job is to explain things that people are too afraid to Google at work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And at the beginning of the year, she started looking into this influencer… who went by Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And she was a very pretty blonde girl, she looked a little bit like Jennifer Lawrence… loved posing on her pickup truck, in American flag bikinis. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily frequently wore a bright red, “Make America Great Again” hat in her photos. She would post Instagram reels set to John Denver’s “Take Me Home, Country Roads,” with captions laden with American flag emojis. Most of her content was about deporting, quote, “illegals” and supporting Trump. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Love posting racist memes and transphobic memes — you know, touching every single one of the MAGA bases. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She had that no-makeup makeup look, and when she wasn’t in a bikini or ice fishing, she posted about being a nurse. Within a few weeks of starting her account, Emily Hart had more than 10,000 followers. It was like everything about her was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There are certain aspects of the Emily Hart brand that are so uniquely American that people who are only from America would understand like, ice fishing or Michelob Ultra and sort of the status that it has as the beer of like, the MAGA world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She’s a Trump supporter’s perfect woman. There’s just one problem — Emily Hart is not real. She’s completely AI-generated. If you look past her perfect body, bleached hair, and very polarizing captions, you’d spot the inconsistencies. I mean, who goes ice fishing in a bikini? EJ said that those inconsistencies are what tipped her off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Her profile said that she went to school in New York and currently lived in New York and she was from Buffalo — like the chances are very low that somebody that explicitly conservative would move to New York City for college and live in New York city and be like, a real human being — honestly. I mean, I’m sure they exist — I don’t think they look like Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in 2024, following Trump’s presidential win, EJ started seeing all of these tradwife-adjacent videos. They almost all featured a beautiful young blonde woman, in her 20s, kneading dough or sweeping the floor of a rustic kitchen. And, unlike the more modestly dressed tradwife influencers who popularized this content, the women in these videos were almost always wearing very low- cut dresses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There was sort of this sense of uncanny valley attached to them where it was like, “Oh these don’t really look like real people,” but they’re obviously trying to cater to a real… and honestly very terrifying audience. So, I started digging into it, because I saw one or two of these accounts and I was like “I bet there are more of them,” and just fell down this rabbit hole of AI MAGA hot girl accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was just one of countless AI MAGA hot girls taking over Instagram. These women are not real, but the people running their accounts are — and Ej found one of them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My pseudonym is Sam. I am a 22-year-old medical student. Currently, I am in my final year of medical school, and that’s pretty much it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam is the creator of Emily Hart, and what began as a get-rich-quick scheme for him quickly spiraled out of control. So, who is Sam, and what would possess him to create an AI MAGA hot girl? The saga of Emily Hart is such a wild ride that we’re actually going to split this deep dive into two parts. There’s so much to unpack here about the strange intersection of politics, AI, virtual influencers, privilege, and digital sex work. But today, we’re starting with Sam’s story. How did this 22-year-old student in India manage to dupe so many conservative men? Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know how every good deep dive starts. Let’s open a new tab: Who is the real Emily Hart? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve probably picked up on this by now, but this tab is not about Emily Hart at all. It’s about the guy who made her. And in some ways, he’s like a lot of other straight guys his age. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I’m a big time gym rat. Like, even right now like, I’m talking to you and I’m completing my daily steps. Building a lean physique, getting shredded — that gives me happiness. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He asked that we call him Sam. We’re using a pseudonym for him because he’s in his final year of medical school, and is concerned about how this story could jeopardize his medical career and ability to emigrate to another country after graduation. Sam is 22, lives in northern India, and is studying orthopedic surgery. He’s from a middle-class family. Like a lot of Indians, he lives in an intergenerational household with his parents, grandparents, aunt, and uncle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, my cousins, they are like my real brother and sister — you get a lot of love, you get a lot of support. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And Sam has always been fascinated by American culture. When I got on a call with him, he was like, “Wait, you live in Los Angeles? Is it really like Grand Theft Auto?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I follow American politics. I wanted to do my post-graduation from USA. I was super into American culture, like — playing GTA, Grand Theft Auto, like, watching, uh, you can say, TV show, of like How I Met Your Mother, Friends, and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just pop culture that made him want to immigrate here. He also wanted to leave India altogether. As close as his family is, his upbringing was, at times, strained. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It was not pleasant, you can say. Like, there is this thing called caste system in India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s caste system is thousands of years old. Historically, castes were tied to specific occupations. The higher castes were priests and warriors and rulers. The middle caste were merchants and skilled artisans. The lower caste did farm work or were servants. And then, there were people who were considered “untouchable” — and they faced the most discrimination, even today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To make up for generations of discrimination and economic inequality, the Indian government has a series of programs called “reservation.” It’s kind of like affirmative action — with strict quotas. A certain percentage of government jobs and public university spots are reserved for members of lower castes. The reservation system is very controversial in India, because it’s not based on current financial status. It’s based purely on caste, which is fixed at birth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You know, like, reservation and caste system were introduced to uplift the lower class — uplift the backward people. It started as a good idea. You know, my family has decent money, like — okay-okay money — we are not very rich. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam’s ancestors were jewelers and fell into that middle tier of merchants and artisans. They’ve been solidly middle-class for generations. His family could not have afforded private school, so he had to compete for one of the very limited spots at his public university. There’s a key tension here between caste and class. Sam doesn’t come from a ton of money. He doesn’t have the same resources and safety net that the upper echelon of Indian society has. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The reservation system was designed to level the playing field. While it uplifts the most oppressed classes, Sam feels like it leaves the middle class behind. He said his own opportunities in India are limited — and that there’s no upward mobility for him. Becoming a doctor was never his great life goal… but, it’s a stable career that offers a considerably better salary than other jobs in India. And, there’s demand for doctors all over the world — he sees it as a ticket out of the caste system. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sam had his sights set on America. He saw it as a land of meritocracy and Grand Theft Auto. But while his parents helped him with tuition and licensing exam fees, he wanted to travel. He needed to buy his protein powder so that he could, as he put it, “get shredded.” And he wanted save up for his potential move to the U.S. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, he needed money. The problem? He’s in his last year of a five-and-a-half year medical program — and when he isn’t in class or working his medical internship, he’s studying for this big entrance exam to get into a post-grad medical specialty program. Plus, the job market in India sucks. Sam said that most entry-level, part-time jobs that college students typically get pay like, a dollar an hour. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If you work four hours per day for a whole month, you can hardly earn like, $100 for a month. And like, I didn’t want to, you know, put so much effort for so little cash. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And, Sam is a product of his generation. It’s not just his gym rat tendencies. It’s what made his story so compelling to Ej. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Sam is, I think, pretty representative of Gen Z males, in that there’s very much an emphasis on like, online side hustles. There were a lot of things that he tried to do to make money. He was doing online fitness coaching for a while, he was doing some of that like, drop shipping nonsense that all the Gen Z boys do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He tutored and sold notes and study guides for the U.S. medical licensing exam, which he already passed. He once saw Instagram ads about monetizing AI clips, so he started making AI Roblox videos for YouTube shorts. He was kind of just… chasing side hustles until something stuck. Then, while scrolling through Instagram, he came across this influencer. She was gorgeous, but Sam could tell she was AI-generated. And yet, she had a huge audience — all from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>She uploads pictures with Donald Trump. She’s a blonde military girl that uploads pictures with Donald Trump — and like, she had like, thousands and millions of likes, thousands of followers, so I wanted to create that. Like, Donald Trump — everyone knows him, everyone knows what he is doing, and you know, even like, me and my friends who follow American politics, we used to joke around MAGA people that they are so dumb, like they don’t understand anything… and like how can someone support Donald Trump? Like, after all that he’s doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He hatched a plan: make a hot AI girl, go viral, and get rich. He opened Google’s AI image generator, also known as Nano Banana Pro. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I use a lot of Gemini. I never use ChatGPT — I am a Gemini guy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam initially tried to make the Indian version of the blonde military girl influencer, but it didn’t work out. For one, he said that because mainstream AI models are trained on American culture, Gemini struggled to generate a realistic-looking Indian woman. The hot Indian girl he was trying to create just looked… fake. And the second issue: he realized that Indian men just don’t spend money the way American men do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> And like USA, there is big tipping culture — people, you know, easily pay- they are more willing to pay. That’s why I changed it to an American influencer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But first, he had to decide what this American influencer would be like. Sam turned to Gemini, which told him the influencer shouldn’t just be a “pretty girl.” She needed depth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You shouldn’t create- just create a beautiful women with no personality. You want people to connect with your Instagram model — then they will be connected with you, then they will buy your services, etcetera. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam had a new plan: create a hot blonde AI girl, go viral, and get rich. She would appeal to the typical American man — so that Sam could cash in on those sweet American tips. And she wouldn’t just look the part, she would have the personality of an all-American girl. Through TV shows, video games, and following American politics, he was familiar enough with American culture to pull it off. With a couple of curated prompts, he had a handful of images to start her account. The last thing he needed was a name. And that came from Gemini too: Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey guys, just enjoying the sun by the pool today. This feels so good. I’m gonna dip my toes in, so refreshing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily took off — thousands of followers in just a few weeks. Sam had unlocked the formula to reach a very specific group of American men. So, how did he do it? We’re getting into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going! You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break, Emily Hart goes MAGA. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: Becoming Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Gemini’s suggestion, Sam created a profile for Emily Hart, a blonde nurse from Buffalo who lives in New York City. It was pretty generic at first. He started posting as Emily in January, and immediately started getting attention… from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Once I created it, like, initially four or five DMs, all the DMs I got, was from, you can say, old 60, 70-year-old, MAGA people like, pro-MAGA, pro-right — like, those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And Gemini was apparently like, “You need to make a MAGA girl. You need to like a hot MAGA in a bikini, like, that’s gold.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He started posting images of Emily ice-fishing, drinking beer, and sexily firing rounds at the shooting range. He wrote captions like: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>If you want a reason to unfollow? Christ is king, abortion is murder, and all illegals must be deported. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>POV: you were assigned intelligent at birth, but you identify as a liberal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Followed by a clown emoji.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He approached it as a craft, and he really spent a lot of time trying to perfect his craft on Gemini —because the space was so saturated, that he really needed a gimmick or a niche to kind of corner in order to be successful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It took a couple of weeks of consistent posting, but the payoff was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It took me three weeks to get initial 1,000 subscribers. And from there, in one week, I had like 14,000-15,000 subscribers, 20 million views and like, all that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It helped that Emily’s audience wasn’t the most tech savvy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I want to be clear that Gemini did not explicitly say this, but I do think that that audience is probably less technologically well-versed than progressives are, and therefore more gullible and more prone to falling toward this kind of scheme. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam echoed this… more strongly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but — like, what I have observed, like, the liberals and the left-wing people, they are usually smart. They are — you know, they have basic common sense. And you know, the MAGA people are like, super dumb people. I should not say that, but they are like — you can say they are not that aware on, you can say, technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That’s not to say that there aren’t easily duped liberals. I do think that internet MAGA has a much, much stronger digital aesthetic than progressives do, for sure. There’s an iconography attached to it — and just seeing like, a blonde white girl wearing an American flag bikini while ice fishing, I mean, how much more MAGA can you get? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s very strong visual political identity resonated with her followers. Maybe that’s why they were less likely to be suspicious of her — the bright red MAGA hat she often wore also helped obscure some of the inconsistencies in her post. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>AI really, you know, messes up the hair also. So, to get around that, I used to include a MAGA cap in like, every image I make. So basically, like, I used to include accessories like sunglasses and MAGA cap to, you know, get two different… like, make it more believable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it wasn’t even just, like, to appeal to MAGA. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, it was — you know, it was beneficial in both ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or, maybe they didn’t suspect anything because she was hot, and that was disarming enough. Because, there were definitely red flags in Emily’s content. Video generation was less convincing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey, handsome. I just got back to my tiny apartment after a 12-hour shift at Bellevue. NYC is just so loud tonight, but honestly? All I can think about is how much I missed you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So Sam usually stuck to images — but even then, he said Gemini couldn’t quite get the eyes right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, you can say that it’s- it might not be real — there is something wrong with the picture. So you know what I used to do? Like, I used include sunglasses in every picture — every picture, I used to include sunglasses. Like, she’s wearing black sunglasses everywhere. Like she is ice-fishing, she is wearing sunglasses, like she’s inside her home, she’s wearing sunglasses. Even at night, she’s wearing sunglasses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam studied up on MAGA ideology and how Trump supporters interact online. Every day, he’d spend 30 minutes to an hour creating content that was pro-Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, and anti-abortion. The more divisive the caption, the more engagement he got as Emily. He didn’t believe in any of this, but he knew what would get attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Weirdly, it was a scam that only somebody who was really interested in American culture could have pulled off, I think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam has a real knack for engagement bait: engineering content that tricks social media algorithms to boost a post. Like, he was inspired by this TikTok trend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There was a trend — on this song, like, it was around two years ago and it was this song — “I’m stylish, big top, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok trend video]: \u003c/strong>Bitch I’m stylish, black talk, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish. Watch on my wrist but I want that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The videos usually started with someone getting ready, in a frumpy get-up — and, when the beat dropped, it would cut to them, fully glammed up. Sam was inspired by that split-second transition on the beat. So, using other songs, he put his own spin on it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I used to upload like, you can say, a catfish type of reel. There was like, four to six seconds reel of Emily Hart, a picture with her like, normal clothes. And then I used a sneak-in, like, for a millisecond, a picture of her in a swimsuit, you can say… sort of, like, a decent word — a swimsuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Driven by horny curiosity, viewers would try to pause the video in time to see the picture. And if they didn’t catch it in time, they’d have to play the video again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And for that, they used to again and again, see multiple times, like four, five times, six times. So that Instagram gets the signal that this reel is so good that people are viewing it five to six times, so promote it. So normally I used to get like 200, 300 views, and like, these type of views used to get like, 10,000, 50,000, 25,000 views. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was a hit. Within a few weeks, she had over 15,000 followers on Instagram — which is a fraction of what the most popular real influencers have, but to build this following in such a short time period with such minimal effort? Real influencers grind for months to build that. Sam felt like he had unlocked something. His MAGA influencer was going strong, but he wondered if there was an untapped market out there. So… he tried to recreate the magic of Emily Hart, but this time for a liberal audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was very stereotypical. I mean, less aggressively so than Emily Hart, but it was like a girl with dyed red hair and a nose ring who would like post cute selfies with a coffee cup in Bushwick. You know, it was very generic. It was clear that she wasn’t as fully fleshed out as Emily Hart was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, it was a complete flop because people used to know that it’s an AI flop and they like, usually didn’t interact with it, like, they didn’t comment. They were like, “This is AI slop, this is trash, we don’t have time,” something like that. And like, the MAGA people were like crazy — “Are you single? Can I message you?” Something like that. They were, you can say, a little more lusty, you can say. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, it was fine. Sam had his hands full with Emily, anyway. In the early days, he got a real kick out of duping conservative men who had no idea they were talking to a 22-year-old Indian guy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They were super racist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When he created Emily’s Facebook profile, he accidentally set his location to New Delhi. A random man messaged the profile. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So, like, he went through my Facebook profile, he went through that, and he saw New Delhi. And he was like, “Have you been to India?” And I didn’t even say anything. And he used to like, “India is not a good place. It’s not safe for women. You shouldn’t have gone there.” And you know, the racist comments. And I didn’t talk to him. Like, he said, “Hi,” I said, “Hello.” Okay — then he started all this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it never occurred to him that he could be just talking to someone who was Indian? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>No. It was a little fun like, you know, like, making a fool of such people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But this wasn’t just for fun. The entire reason he got into this was to make some cash. So, how did he monetize Emily Hart? That’s a new tab: why was Emily Hart so successful? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instagram is very strict about nudity and adult content. So, like many real human sex workers, Emily’s Instagram account was a vehicle to drive engagement to another site: Fanvue. The most popular subscription platform for adult content is OnlyFans. Using AI tools to edit content and manage messages is allowed, but the site totally bans “synthetic personas” — fully AI-generated characters like Emily Hart. In fact, a lot of adult subscription sites do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instead, Sam used Fanvue, which is where a lot AI influencers sell nudes. Google’s Gemini blocks the generation of explicit content, and although there are ways to get around it, Sam’s hustle was all about doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money. So, he used Grok. He generated a couple nudes, uploaded them to Fanvue, set a subscription fee, and locked the juiciest content behind a paywall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then… the cash started rolling in. Sam was blown away at how easily Americans spent money. He couldn’t believe they were tipping him — or really, Emily — just to respond to their messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People used to hugely tip. I don’t know why people tip in USA — like, I am 22 years old, I have never in my life once seen someone tipping in India. And like, people were like, crazy, they used to tip me $20, $10, and I was thinking like, “Why people are sending me extra money? I dont know.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He made a few thousand dollars within days of starting the account. Again, human adult content creators grind for years to get this kind of audience… and to generate anything close to this amount of revenue. What was it about Emily that made her so popular? Ej has a theory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think that probably at the time that Sam was doing this, the space was a little less saturated, so there was less competition. And, I think, probably the most major contributor to this is the fact that there’s a really strong element of self-delusion at play here, right? In order to buy into Emily Hart’s whole persona, you not only have to believe that this woman exists, you have to be believe that she is a hot 24-year-old girl who exists and believes exactly the same things as you do — and validates every single opinion you have. I think these men got off to that probably more than anything. And I think that’s very powerful for the MAGA sect. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are real adult content creators who are also conservative. Ej pointed to Brandi Love, who’s known for making MILF porn and also being a vocal Trump supporter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think what differentiates Emily from someone like Brandi, is Brandi does not make it integral to her persona, right? She very rarely posts about politics, and that’s Emily’s entire brand is combining politics with sex. With the conservative adult creators, the politics are kind of incidental to the main product, which is the sex. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam knew he was playing into some kind of fantasy, and soon after starting the Fanvue account, started feeling really bad about it. He didn’t like the idea of deceiving anyone for money. Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI, but Sam wasn’t making money there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If someone paid for my Fanvue, I used to disclose it — like, you should know this, before spending like, too much money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And when subscribers sent him additional tips on Fanvue, he’d actually message them back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, I used to say to them — “That you should know, I’m artificially generated.”. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The wild thing is, the subscribers didn’t seem to care at all — even when Sam reminded them that the girl they were paying wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, two or three people messaged me, like, “We think that you are AI-generated, but we love the reels you are making. You are supporting Trump, you are supporting the Republicans, so we will support you. We don’t care.” So, many were like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really don’t think that the majority of these men care if the woman on the other side of the screen is fake — and that’s kind of the scariest part to me, because I think that that principle applies to AI-generated content on the internet in general. I don’t think people care if something is real or fake anymore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What would drive Emily Hart subscribers to continue following her, subscribing to her exclusive content, and even paying to DM her if they knew she wasn’t really a hot 24-year-old, pickup truck-driving, ice-fishing nurse in New York City? They knew the pictures they were liking and saving — among other things — were generated using AI. At that point, why continue following her? Why not just chat with an AI girlfriend on Character AI or something? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really think it comes down to this idea of intimacy, which is the whole reason why OnlyFans blew up in the first place. Like, the whole premise of OnlyFans is that men are directly connecting with the objects of their fantasies. And, the level of intimacy that is provided by that exchange goes beyond sex, it goes beyond getting off. It really is about human connection. So I think that a lot of the men who paid for Emily Hart’s content were sort of willing to suspend their disbelief in exchange for that element of intimacy, of connection, of human interaction that they were trying to convince themselves that they were getting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was making way more money than he ever could have made working a part-time job during school. Every day, he generates some more Emily content and come up with a racist, xenophobic caption that he knew would get attention. He kept an eye on all the viral trends that other hot girls, AI or not, were doing on Instagram and TikTok. Emily’s fans weren’t just American either. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I got a guy from Germany, I got a guy from Switzerland, like, many different people. Like, on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like, my DM was filled, every day I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam ignored most of the Instagram messages, but made sure that Fanvue subscribers got a response, because they had to pay to unlock those. The site has an AI feature that generates messages based on previous chats, so he could automate responses. Although he didn’t have to respond to subscribers himself, he did have to see what they sent back. And they were getting a little too comfortable in Emily’s DMs. That’s a whole new tab: Emily Hart’s Simp Army. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the upside? Sam made a good amount of money as Emily Hart. The downside? He was dealing with some real creeps. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I can’t even say what people were sending me to Instagram, like, it’s inappropriate. But like, people are sending inappropriate images, inappropriate messages. “Hey, are you single? What’s up? Where do you live?” Like, these are general. But like, some people were like, so creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Navigating the internet as Emily was an eye-opening experience for Sam. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My friends don’t even message me that much. When I started, I used to get like, 10-15 messages, easily. Like, so much attention. And I was thinking like, “Do pretty women get so much attention?” Like, I was like, surprised. But it’s not good kind of attention — it’s not the kind of attention people want. It’s super disgusting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As Emily Hart — patriot and rising Fanvue star —Sam experienced what women haven’t subjected to since the birth of texting: unsolicited dick pics. He was appalled. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image. Like, it was super weird, super creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He learned to stop checking Emily Hart’s Instagram messages, but he couldn’t ignore the ones on Fanvue, because that’s where he was making money. One guy on Fanvue sent him 50 bucks, and then to accompany the tip, the subscriber attached a video of himself, naked, humping a pillow that propped up a tablet with Emily’s nude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I mean, these guys were sending him cum tributes, like they were ejaculating on photos of Emily Hart, or like sending videos of themselves masturbating on Emily Hart’s photo — and he would have to see this, like, all the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, there was the emotional toll, too. The unsolicited videos were gross, but they were nothing compared to the trauma-dumping that Emily’s subscribers did in her DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He would get messages all the time from people who would buy her videos and buy her exclusive content — and they would be like, “Are you real or are you AI?” But then they would go on and talk about their days, or talk about how lonely they were, how much they hated their wives. I found Sam very thoughtful and self-reflective. I think that he felt guilty about deceiving them, honestly. They would share things with him sometimes that went beyond the typical OnlyFans model-subscriber relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just going back to that idea of intimacy and human connection, like they would talk about how terrible their marriages were and they hadn’t slept in the same bed as and their wives in years and how they recently lost a parent or a beloved family member. When there was a theoretical audience of dumb MAGA guys paying for this content, I think he was more comfortable with that than with engaging with them all on an individual level and being like, “Oh, these are real people with real problems.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The AI MAGA hot girl venture was supposed to be easy cash. And the fact that he was tricking Americans, whose politics he fundamentally disagreed with — who would probably be horrified to find out they were sending cum tributes to a 22-year-old Indian guy — felt like poetic justice. But the grift… stoped being fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it got too intense. I think he got burnt out by it very fast. He wasn’t doing it for very long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the Instagram ban started. The scammer accusations followed. Emily Hart, AKA Sam, was under fire. That’s it for part one of the story, but don’t worry. We’re not finished with this deep dive yet. Next week, we’re getting into the rest of the Emily Hart saga, the scammer debate, and what happened with Sam’s lifelong dream of moving to America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs before part two drops next week, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. We’re leaving these tabs open for now. So, come back for the rest of the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited and audio engineered by Chris Egusa. Production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his White Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. We also used a clip of the song “Billie Eilish” by Armani White. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Can I say cum tributes on here or should I just- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But you will have to, uh — for the normies — explain what cum tributes are. \u003cem>[Laughs].\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/ai-generated-influencers-a-new-wave-of-cultural-exploitation-248956\">AI‑generated influencers: A new wave of cultural exploitation\u003c/a> — Ateqah Khaki & Vinita Srivastava, \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/ai-generated-influencers-a-new-wave-of-cultural-exploitation-248956\">AI‑generated influencers: A new wave of cultural exploitation\u003c/a> — Ateqah Khaki & Vinita Srivastava, \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-brandi-love-the-pro-trump-porn-star-who-writes-for-the-federalist/\">Meet Brandi Love, the Pro-Trump Porn Star Who Writes for The Federalist\u003c/a> — Marlow Stern, \u003cem>The Daily Beast \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-brandi-love-the-pro-trump-porn-star-who-writes-for-the-federalist/\">Meet Brandi Love, the Pro-Trump Porn Star Who Writes for The Federalist\u003c/a> — Marlow Stern, \u003cem>The Daily Beast \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theworld.org/stories/2026/06/19/challenges-under-indias-university-reservation-system\">Challenges under India’s university reservation system \u003c/a> — Namrata Kolachalam, \u003cem>The World \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theworld.org/stories/2026/06/19/challenges-under-indias-university-reservation-system\">Challenges under India’s university reservation system \u003c/a> — Namrata Kolachalam, \u003cem>The World \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabby Cats, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends — post about it. You too, can be part of our volunteer clipping army. We can’t let the looksmaxxers win the clip wars. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabby Cats, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends — post about it. You too, can be part of our volunteer clipping army. We can’t let the looksmaxxers win the clip wars. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains some graphic descriptions of sexual content, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains some graphic descriptions of sexual content, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>So, Emily Hart was a 23-year-old nurse, I believe? Born in Buffalo, lived in New York City, who loved ice fishing and Michelob Light and America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>So, Emily Hart was a 23-year-old nurse, I believe? Born in Buffalo, lived in New York City, who loved ice fishing and Michelob Light and America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej Dickson is a reporter for Wired. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej Dickson is a reporter for Wired. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>My job is to explain things that people are too afraid to Google at work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>My job is to explain things that people are too afraid to Google at work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And at the beginning of the year, she started looking into this influencer… who went by Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And at the beginning of the year, she started looking into this influencer… who went by Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And she was a very pretty blonde girl, she looked a little bit like Jennifer Lawrence… loved posing on her pickup truck, in American flag bikinis. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And she was a very pretty blonde girl, she looked a little bit like Jennifer Lawrence… loved posing on her pickup truck, in American flag bikinis. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily frequently wore a bright red, “Make America Great Again” hat in her photos. She would post Instagram reels set to John Denver’s “Take Me Home, Country Roads,” with captions laden with American flag emojis. Most of her content was about deporting, quote, “illegals” and supporting Trump. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily frequently wore a bright red, “Make America Great Again” hat in her photos. She would post Instagram reels set to John Denver’s “Take Me Home, Country Roads,” with captions laden with American flag emojis. Most of her content was about deporting, quote, “illegals” and supporting Trump. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Love posting racist memes and transphobic memes — you know, touching every single one of the MAGA bases. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Love posting racist memes and transphobic memes — you know, touching every single one of the MAGA bases. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She had that no-makeup makeup look, and when she wasn’t in a bikini or ice fishing, she posted about being a nurse. Within a few weeks of starting her account, Emily Hart had more than 10,000 followers. It was like everything about her was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She had that no-makeup makeup look, and when she wasn’t in a bikini or ice fishing, she posted about being a nurse. Within a few weeks of starting her account, Emily Hart had more than 10,000 followers. It was like everything about her was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There are certain aspects of the Emily Hart brand that are so uniquely American that people who are only from America would understand like, ice fishing or Michelob Ultra and sort of the status that it has as the beer of like, the MAGA world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There are certain aspects of the Emily Hart brand that are so uniquely American that people who are only from America would understand like, ice fishing or Michelob Ultra and sort of the status that it has as the beer of like, the MAGA world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She’s a Trump supporter’s perfect woman. There’s just one problem — Emily Hart is not real. She’s completely AI-generated. If you look past her perfect body, bleached hair, and very polarizing captions, you’d spot the inconsistencies. I mean, who goes ice fishing in a bikini? EJ said that those inconsistencies are what tipped her off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She’s a Trump supporter’s perfect woman. There’s just one problem — Emily Hart is not real. She’s completely AI-generated. If you look past her perfect body, bleached hair, and very polarizing captions, you’d spot the inconsistencies. I mean, who goes ice fishing in a bikini? EJ said that those inconsistencies are what tipped her off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Her profile said that she went to school in New York and currently lived in New York and she was from Buffalo — like the chances are very low that somebody that explicitly conservative would move to New York City for college and live in New York city and be like, a real human being — honestly. I mean, I’m sure they exist — I don’t think they look like Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Her profile said that she went to school in New York and currently lived in New York and she was from Buffalo — like the chances are very low that somebody that explicitly conservative would move to New York City for college and live in New York city and be like, a real human being — honestly. I mean, I’m sure they exist — I don’t think they look like Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in 2024, following Trump’s presidential win, EJ started seeing all of these tradwife-adjacent videos. They almost all featured a beautiful young blonde woman, in her 20s, kneading dough or sweeping the floor of a rustic kitchen. And, unlike the more modestly dressed tradwife influencers who popularized this content, the women in these videos were almost always wearing very low- cut dresses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in 2024, following Trump’s presidential win, EJ started seeing all of these tradwife-adjacent videos. They almost all featured a beautiful young blonde woman, in her 20s, kneading dough or sweeping the floor of a rustic kitchen. And, unlike the more modestly dressed tradwife influencers who popularized this content, the women in these videos were almost always wearing very low- cut dresses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There was sort of this sense of uncanny valley attached to them where it was like, “Oh these don’t really look like real people,” but they’re obviously trying to cater to a real… and honestly very terrifying audience. So, I started digging into it, because I saw one or two of these accounts and I was like “I bet there are more of them,” and just fell down this rabbit hole of AI MAGA hot girl accounts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There was sort of this sense of uncanny valley attached to them where it was like, “Oh these don’t really look like real people,” but they’re obviously trying to cater to a real… and honestly very terrifying audience. So, I started digging into it, because I saw one or two of these accounts and I was like “I bet there are more of them,” and just fell down this rabbit hole of AI MAGA hot girl accounts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was just one of countless AI MAGA hot girls taking over Instagram. These women are not real, but the people running their accounts are — and Ej found one of them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was just one of countless AI MAGA hot girls taking over Instagram. These women are not real, but the people running their accounts are — and Ej found one of them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My pseudonym is Sam. I am a 22-year-old medical student. Currently, I am in my final year of medical school, and that’s pretty much it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My pseudonym is Sam. I am a 22-year-old medical student. Currently, I am in my final year of medical school, and that’s pretty much it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam is the creator of Emily Hart, and what began as a get-rich-quick scheme for him quickly spiraled out of control. So, who is Sam, and what would possess him to create an AI MAGA hot girl? The saga of Emily Hart is such a wild ride that we’re actually going to split this deep dive into two parts. There’s so much to unpack here about the strange intersection of politics, AI, virtual influencers, privilege, and digital sex work. But today, we’re starting with Sam’s story. How did this 22-year-old student in India manage to dupe so many conservative men? Ready? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam is the creator of Emily Hart, and what began as a get-rich-quick scheme for him quickly spiraled out of control. So, who is Sam, and what would possess him to create an AI MAGA hot girl? The saga of Emily Hart is such a wild ride that we’re actually going to split this deep dive into two parts. There’s so much to unpack here about the strange intersection of politics, AI, virtual influencers, privilege, and digital sex work. But today, we’re starting with Sam’s story. How did this 22-year-old student in India manage to dupe so many conservative men? Ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know how every good deep dive starts. Let’s open a new tab: Who is the real Emily Hart? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know how every good deep dive starts. Let’s open a new tab: Who is the real Emily Hart? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’ve probably picked up on this by now, but this tab is not about Emily Hart at all. It’s about the guy who made her. And in some ways, he’s like a lot of other straight guys his age. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You’ve probably picked up on this by now, but this tab is not about Emily Hart at all. It’s about the guy who made her. And in some ways, he’s like a lot of other straight guys his age. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I’m a big time gym rat. Like, even right now like, I’m talking to you and I’m completing my daily steps. Building a lean physique, getting shredded — that gives me happiness. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I’m a big time gym rat. Like, even right now like, I’m talking to you and I’m completing my daily steps. Building a lean physique, getting shredded — that gives me happiness. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He asked that we call him Sam. We’re using a pseudonym for him because he’s in his final year of medical school, and is concerned about how this story could jeopardize his medical career and ability to emigrate to another country after graduation. Sam is 22, lives in northern India, and is studying orthopedic surgery. He’s from a middle-class family. Like a lot of Indians, he lives in an intergenerational household with his parents, grandparents, aunt, and uncle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He asked that we call him Sam. We’re using a pseudonym for him because he’s in his final year of medical school, and is concerned about how this story could jeopardize his medical career and ability to emigrate to another country after graduation. Sam is 22, lives in northern India, and is studying orthopedic surgery. He’s from a middle-class family. Like a lot of Indians, he lives in an intergenerational household with his parents, grandparents, aunt, and uncle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, my cousins, they are like my real brother and sister — you get a lot of love, you get a lot of support. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, my cousins, they are like my real brother and sister — you get a lot of love, you get a lot of support. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And Sam has always been fascinated by American culture. When I got on a call with him, he was like, “Wait, you live in Los Angeles? Is it really like Grand Theft Auto?” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And Sam has always been fascinated by American culture. When I got on a call with him, he was like, “Wait, you live in Los Angeles? Is it really like Grand Theft Auto?” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I follow American politics. I wanted to do my post-graduation from USA. I was super into American culture, like — playing GTA, Grand Theft Auto, like, watching, uh, you can say, TV show, of like How I Met Your Mother, Friends, and all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I follow American politics. I wanted to do my post-graduation from USA. I was super into American culture, like — playing GTA, Grand Theft Auto, like, watching, uh, you can say, TV show, of like How I Met Your Mother, Friends, and all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just pop culture that made him want to immigrate here. He also wanted to leave India altogether. As close as his family is, his upbringing was, at times, strained. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just pop culture that made him want to immigrate here. He also wanted to leave India altogether. As close as his family is, his upbringing was, at times, strained. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It was not pleasant, you can say. Like, there is this thing called caste system in India. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It was not pleasant, you can say. Like, there is this thing called caste system in India. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s caste system is thousands of years old. Historically, castes were tied to specific occupations. The higher castes were priests and warriors and rulers. The middle caste were merchants and skilled artisans. The lower caste did farm work or were servants. And then, there were people who were considered “untouchable” — and they faced the most discrimination, even today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s caste system is thousands of years old. Historically, castes were tied to specific occupations. The higher castes were priests and warriors and rulers. The middle caste were merchants and skilled artisans. The lower caste did farm work or were servants. And then, there were people who were considered “untouchable” — and they faced the most discrimination, even today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To make up for generations of discrimination and economic inequality, the Indian government has a series of programs called “reservation.” It’s kind of like affirmative action — with strict quotas. A certain percentage of government jobs and public university spots are reserved for members of lower castes. The reservation system is very controversial in India, because it’s not based on current financial status. It’s based purely on caste, which is fixed at birth. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To make up for generations of discrimination and economic inequality, the Indian government has a series of programs called “reservation.” It’s kind of like affirmative action — with strict quotas. A certain percentage of government jobs and public university spots are reserved for members of lower castes. The reservation system is very controversial in India, because it’s not based on current financial status. It’s based purely on caste, which is fixed at birth. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You know, like, reservation and caste system were introduced to uplift the lower class — uplift the backward people. It started as a good idea. You know, my family has decent money, like — okay-okay money — we are not very rich. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You know, like, reservation and caste system were introduced to uplift the lower class — uplift the backward people. It started as a good idea. You know, my family has decent money, like — okay-okay money — we are not very rich. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam’s ancestors were jewelers and fell into that middle tier of merchants and artisans. They’ve been solidly middle-class for generations. His family could not have afforded private school, so he had to compete for one of the very limited spots at his public university. There’s a key tension here between caste and class. Sam doesn’t come from a ton of money. He doesn’t have the same resources and safety net that the upper echelon of Indian society has. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam’s ancestors were jewelers and fell into that middle tier of merchants and artisans. They’ve been solidly middle-class for generations. His family could not have afforded private school, so he had to compete for one of the very limited spots at his public university. There’s a key tension here between caste and class. Sam doesn’t come from a ton of money. He doesn’t have the same resources and safety net that the upper echelon of Indian society has. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The reservation system was designed to level the playing field. While it uplifts the most oppressed classes, Sam feels like it leaves the middle class behind. He said his own opportunities in India are limited — and that there’s no upward mobility for him. Becoming a doctor was never his great life goal… but, it’s a stable career that offers a considerably better salary than other jobs in India. And, there’s demand for doctors all over the world — he sees it as a ticket out of the caste system. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The reservation system was designed to level the playing field. While it uplifts the most oppressed classes, Sam feels like it leaves the middle class behind. He said his own opportunities in India are limited — and that there’s no upward mobility for him. Becoming a doctor was never his great life goal… but, it’s a stable career that offers a considerably better salary than other jobs in India. And, there’s demand for doctors all over the world — he sees it as a ticket out of the caste system. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sam had his sights set on America. He saw it as a land of meritocracy and Grand Theft Auto. But while his parents helped him with tuition and licensing exam fees, he wanted to travel. He needed to buy his protein powder so that he could, as he put it, “get shredded.” And he wanted save up for his potential move to the U.S. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sam had his sights set on America. He saw it as a land of meritocracy and Grand Theft Auto. But while his parents helped him with tuition and licensing exam fees, he wanted to travel. He needed to buy his protein powder so that he could, as he put it, “get shredded.” And he wanted save up for his potential move to the U.S. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, he needed money. The problem? He’s in his last year of a five-and-a-half year medical program — and when he isn’t in class or working his medical internship, he’s studying for this big entrance exam to get into a post-grad medical specialty program. Plus, the job market in India sucks. Sam said that most entry-level, part-time jobs that college students typically get pay like, a dollar an hour. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, he needed money. The problem? He’s in his last year of a five-and-a-half year medical program — and when he isn’t in class or working his medical internship, he’s studying for this big entrance exam to get into a post-grad medical specialty program. Plus, the job market in India sucks. Sam said that most entry-level, part-time jobs that college students typically get pay like, a dollar an hour. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If you work four hours per day for a whole month, you can hardly earn like, $100 for a month. And like, I didn’t want to, you know, put so much effort for so little cash. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If you work four hours per day for a whole month, you can hardly earn like, $100 for a month. And like, I didn’t want to, you know, put so much effort for so little cash. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And, Sam is a product of his generation. It’s not just his gym rat tendencies. It’s what made his story so compelling to Ej. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And, Sam is a product of his generation. It’s not just his gym rat tendencies. It’s what made his story so compelling to Ej. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Sam is, I think, pretty representative of Gen Z males, in that there’s very much an emphasis on like, online side hustles. There were a lot of things that he tried to do to make money. He was doing online fitness coaching for a while, he was doing some of that like, drop shipping nonsense that all the Gen Z boys do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Sam is, I think, pretty representative of Gen Z males, in that there’s very much an emphasis on like, online side hustles. There were a lot of things that he tried to do to make money. He was doing online fitness coaching for a while, he was doing some of that like, drop shipping nonsense that all the Gen Z boys do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He tutored and sold notes and study guides for the U.S. medical licensing exam, which he already passed. He once saw Instagram ads about monetizing AI clips, so he started making AI Roblox videos for YouTube shorts. He was kind of just… chasing side hustles until something stuck. Then, while scrolling through Instagram, he came across this influencer. She was gorgeous, but Sam could tell she was AI-generated. And yet, she had a huge audience — all from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He tutored and sold notes and study guides for the U.S. medical licensing exam, which he already passed. He once saw Instagram ads about monetizing AI clips, so he started making AI Roblox videos for YouTube shorts. He was kind of just… chasing side hustles until something stuck. Then, while scrolling through Instagram, he came across this influencer. She was gorgeous, but Sam could tell she was AI-generated. And yet, she had a huge audience — all from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>She uploads pictures with Donald Trump. She’s a blonde military girl that uploads pictures with Donald Trump — and like, she had like, thousands and millions of likes, thousands of followers, so I wanted to create that. Like, Donald Trump — everyone knows him, everyone knows what he is doing, and you know, even like, me and my friends who follow American politics, we used to joke around MAGA people that they are so dumb, like they don’t understand anything… and like how can someone support Donald Trump? Like, after all that he’s doing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>She uploads pictures with Donald Trump. She’s a blonde military girl that uploads pictures with Donald Trump — and like, she had like, thousands and millions of likes, thousands of followers, so I wanted to create that. Like, Donald Trump — everyone knows him, everyone knows what he is doing, and you know, even like, me and my friends who follow American politics, we used to joke around MAGA people that they are so dumb, like they don’t understand anything… and like how can someone support Donald Trump? Like, after all that he’s doing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He hatched a plan: make a hot AI girl, go viral, and get rich. He opened Google’s AI image generator, also known as Nano Banana Pro. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He hatched a plan: make a hot AI girl, go viral, and get rich. He opened Google’s AI image generator, also known as Nano Banana Pro. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I use a lot of Gemini. I never use ChatGPT — I am a Gemini guy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I use a lot of Gemini. I never use ChatGPT — I am a Gemini guy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam initially tried to make the Indian version of the blonde military girl influencer, but it didn’t work out. For one, he said that because mainstream AI models are trained on American culture, Gemini struggled to generate a realistic-looking Indian woman. The hot Indian girl he was trying to create just looked… fake. And the second issue: he realized that Indian men just don’t spend money the way American men do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam initially tried to make the Indian version of the blonde military girl influencer, but it didn’t work out. For one, he said that because mainstream AI models are trained on American culture, Gemini struggled to generate a realistic-looking Indian woman. The hot Indian girl he was trying to create just looked… fake. And the second issue: he realized that Indian men just don’t spend money the way American men do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> And like USA, there is big tipping culture — people, you know, easily pay- they are more willing to pay. That’s why I changed it to an American influencer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> And like USA, there is big tipping culture — people, you know, easily pay- they are more willing to pay. That’s why I changed it to an American influencer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But first, he had to decide what this American influencer would be like. Sam turned to Gemini, which told him the influencer shouldn’t just be a “pretty girl.” She needed depth. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But first, he had to decide what this American influencer would be like. Sam turned to Gemini, which told him the influencer shouldn’t just be a “pretty girl.” She needed depth. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You shouldn’t create- just create a beautiful women with no personality. You want people to connect with your Instagram model — then they will be connected with you, then they will buy your services, etcetera. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You shouldn’t create- just create a beautiful women with no personality. You want people to connect with your Instagram model — then they will be connected with you, then they will buy your services, etcetera. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam had a new plan: create a hot blonde AI girl, go viral, and get rich. She would appeal to the typical American man — so that Sam could cash in on those sweet American tips. And she wouldn’t just look the part, she would have the personality of an all-American girl. Through TV shows, video games, and following American politics, he was familiar enough with American culture to pull it off. With a couple of curated prompts, he had a handful of images to start her account. The last thing he needed was a name. And that came from Gemini too: Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam had a new plan: create a hot blonde AI girl, go viral, and get rich. She would appeal to the typical American man — so that Sam could cash in on those sweet American tips. And she wouldn’t just look the part, she would have the personality of an all-American girl. Through TV shows, video games, and following American politics, he was familiar enough with American culture to pull it off. With a couple of curated prompts, he had a handful of images to start her account. The last thing he needed was a name. And that came from Gemini too: Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey guys, just enjoying the sun by the pool today. This feels so good. I’m gonna dip my toes in, so refreshing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey guys, just enjoying the sun by the pool today. This feels so good. I’m gonna dip my toes in, so refreshing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily took off — thousands of followers in just a few weeks. Sam had unlocked the formula to reach a very specific group of American men. So, how did he do it? We’re getting into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going! You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break, Emily Hart goes MAGA. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily took off — thousands of followers in just a few weeks. Sam had unlocked the formula to reach a very specific group of American men. So, how did he do it? We’re getting into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going! You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break, Emily Hart goes MAGA. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: Becoming Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: Becoming Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Gemini’s suggestion, Sam created a profile for Emily Hart, a blonde nurse from Buffalo who lives in New York City. It was pretty generic at first. He started posting as Emily in January, and immediately started getting attention… from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At Gemini’s suggestion, Sam created a profile for Emily Hart, a blonde nurse from Buffalo who lives in New York City. It was pretty generic at first. He started posting as Emily in January, and immediately started getting attention… from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Once I created it, like, initially four or five DMs, all the DMs I got, was from, you can say, old 60, 70-year-old, MAGA people like, pro-MAGA, pro-right — like, those. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Once I created it, like, initially four or five DMs, all the DMs I got, was from, you can say, old 60, 70-year-old, MAGA people like, pro-MAGA, pro-right — like, those. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And Gemini was apparently like, “You need to make a MAGA girl. You need to like a hot MAGA in a bikini, like, that’s gold.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And Gemini was apparently like, “You need to make a MAGA girl. You need to like a hot MAGA in a bikini, like, that’s gold.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He started posting images of Emily ice-fishing, drinking beer, and sexily firing rounds at the shooting range. He wrote captions like: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He started posting images of Emily ice-fishing, drinking beer, and sexily firing rounds at the shooting range. He wrote captions like: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>If you want a reason to unfollow? Christ is king, abortion is murder, and all illegals must be deported. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>If you want a reason to unfollow? Christ is king, abortion is murder, and all illegals must be deported. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And:\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>POV: you were assigned intelligent at birth, but you identify as a liberal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>POV: you were assigned intelligent at birth, but you identify as a liberal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Followed by a clown emoji.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Followed by a clown emoji.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He approached it as a craft, and he really spent a lot of time trying to perfect his craft on Gemini —because the space was so saturated, that he really needed a gimmick or a niche to kind of corner in order to be successful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He approached it as a craft, and he really spent a lot of time trying to perfect his craft on Gemini —because the space was so saturated, that he really needed a gimmick or a niche to kind of corner in order to be successful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It took a couple of weeks of consistent posting, but the payoff was real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It took a couple of weeks of consistent posting, but the payoff was real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It took me three weeks to get initial 1,000 subscribers. And from there, in one week, I had like 14,000-15,000 subscribers, 20 million views and like, all that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It took me three weeks to get initial 1,000 subscribers. And from there, in one week, I had like 14,000-15,000 subscribers, 20 million views and like, all that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It helped that Emily’s audience wasn’t the most tech savvy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It helped that Emily’s audience wasn’t the most tech savvy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I want to be clear that Gemini did not explicitly say this, but I do think that that audience is probably less technologically well-versed than progressives are, and therefore more gullible and more prone to falling toward this kind of scheme. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I want to be clear that Gemini did not explicitly say this, but I do think that that audience is probably less technologically well-versed than progressives are, and therefore more gullible and more prone to falling toward this kind of scheme. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam echoed this… more strongly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam echoed this… more strongly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but — like, what I have observed, like, the liberals and the left-wing people, they are usually smart. They are — you know, they have basic common sense. And you know, the MAGA people are like, super dumb people. I should not say that, but they are like — you can say they are not that aware on, you can say, technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but — like, what I have observed, like, the liberals and the left-wing people, they are usually smart. They are — you know, they have basic common sense. And you know, the MAGA people are like, super dumb people. I should not say that, but they are like — you can say they are not that aware on, you can say, technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That’s not to say that there aren’t easily duped liberals. I do think that internet MAGA has a much, much stronger digital aesthetic than progressives do, for sure. There’s an iconography attached to it — and just seeing like, a blonde white girl wearing an American flag bikini while ice fishing, I mean, how much more MAGA can you get? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That’s not to say that there aren’t easily duped liberals. I do think that internet MAGA has a much, much stronger digital aesthetic than progressives do, for sure. There’s an iconography attached to it — and just seeing like, a blonde white girl wearing an American flag bikini while ice fishing, I mean, how much more MAGA can you get? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s very strong visual political identity resonated with her followers. Maybe that’s why they were less likely to be suspicious of her — the bright red MAGA hat she often wore also helped obscure some of the inconsistencies in her post. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s very strong visual political identity resonated with her followers. Maybe that’s why they were less likely to be suspicious of her — the bright red MAGA hat she often wore also helped obscure some of the inconsistencies in her post. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>AI really, you know, messes up the hair also. So, to get around that, I used to include a MAGA cap in like, every image I make. So basically, like, I used to include accessories like sunglasses and MAGA cap to, you know, get two different… like, make it more believable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it wasn’t even just, like, to appeal to MAGA. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it wasn’t even just, like, to appeal to MAGA. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, it was — you know, it was beneficial in both ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, it was — you know, it was beneficial in both ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or, maybe they didn’t suspect anything because she was hot, and that was disarming enough. Because, there were definitely red flags in Emily’s content. Video generation was less convincing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or, maybe they didn’t suspect anything because she was hot, and that was disarming enough. Because, there were definitely red flags in Emily’s content. Video generation was less convincing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey, handsome. I just got back to my tiny apartment after a 12-hour shift at Bellevue. NYC is just so loud tonight, but honestly? All I can think about is how much I missed you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey, handsome. I just got back to my tiny apartment after a 12-hour shift at Bellevue. NYC is just so loud tonight, but honestly? All I can think about is how much I missed you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So Sam usually stuck to images — but even then, he said Gemini couldn’t quite get the eyes right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, you can say that it’s- it might not be real — there is something wrong with the picture. So you know what I used to do? Like, I used include sunglasses in every picture — every picture, I used to include sunglasses. Like, she’s wearing black sunglasses everywhere. Like she is ice-fishing, she is wearing sunglasses, like she’s inside her home, she’s wearing sunglasses. Even at night, she’s wearing sunglasses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, you can say that it’s- it might not be real — there is something wrong with the picture. So you know what I used to do? Like, I used include sunglasses in every picture — every picture, I used to include sunglasses. Like, she’s wearing black sunglasses everywhere. Like she is ice-fishing, she is wearing sunglasses, like she’s inside her home, she’s wearing sunglasses. Even at night, she’s wearing sunglasses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam studied up on MAGA ideology and how Trump supporters interact online. Every day, he’d spend 30 minutes to an hour creating content that was pro-Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, and anti-abortion. The more divisive the caption, the more engagement he got as Emily. He didn’t believe in any of this, but he knew what would get attention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam studied up on MAGA ideology and how Trump supporters interact online. Every day, he’d spend 30 minutes to an hour creating content that was pro-Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, and anti-abortion. The more divisive the caption, the more engagement he got as Emily. He didn’t believe in any of this, but he knew what would get attention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Weirdly, it was a scam that only somebody who was really interested in American culture could have pulled off, I think. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Weirdly, it was a scam that only somebody who was really interested in American culture could have pulled off, I think. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam has a real knack for engagement bait: engineering content that tricks social media algorithms to boost a post. Like, he was inspired by this TikTok trend. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam has a real knack for engagement bait: engineering content that tricks social media algorithms to boost a post. Like, he was inspired by this TikTok trend. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There was a trend — on this song, like, it was around two years ago and it was this song — “I’m stylish, big top, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There was a trend — on this song, like, it was around two years ago and it was this song — “I’m stylish, big top, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok trend video]: \u003c/strong>Bitch I’m stylish, black talk, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish. Watch on my wrist but I want that…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok trend video]: \u003c/strong>Bitch I’m stylish, black talk, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish. Watch on my wrist but I want that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The videos usually started with someone getting ready, in a frumpy get-up — and, when the beat dropped, it would cut to them, fully glammed up. Sam was inspired by that split-second transition on the beat. So, using other songs, he put his own spin on it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The videos usually started with someone getting ready, in a frumpy get-up — and, when the beat dropped, it would cut to them, fully glammed up. Sam was inspired by that split-second transition on the beat. So, using other songs, he put his own spin on it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I used to upload like, you can say, a catfish type of reel. There was like, four to six seconds reel of Emily Hart, a picture with her like, normal clothes. And then I used a sneak-in, like, for a millisecond, a picture of her in a swimsuit, you can say… sort of, like, a decent word — a swimsuit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I used to upload like, you can say, a catfish type of reel. There was like, four to six seconds reel of Emily Hart, a picture with her like, normal clothes. And then I used a sneak-in, like, for a millisecond, a picture of her in a swimsuit, you can say… sort of, like, a decent word — a swimsuit. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Driven by horny curiosity, viewers would try to pause the video in time to see the picture. And if they didn’t catch it in time, they’d have to play the video again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Driven by horny curiosity, viewers would try to pause the video in time to see the picture. And if they didn’t catch it in time, they’d have to play the video again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And for that, they used to again and again, see multiple times, like four, five times, six times. So that Instagram gets the signal that this reel is so good that people are viewing it five to six times, so promote it. So normally I used to get like 200, 300 views, and like, these type of views used to get like, 10,000, 50,000, 25,000 views. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And for that, they used to again and again, see multiple times, like four, five times, six times. So that Instagram gets the signal that this reel is so good that people are viewing it five to six times, so promote it. So normally I used to get like 200, 300 views, and like, these type of views used to get like, 10,000, 50,000, 25,000 views. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was a hit. Within a few weeks, she had over 15,000 followers on Instagram — which is a fraction of what the most popular real influencers have, but to build this following in such a short time period with such minimal effort? Real influencers grind for months to build that. Sam felt like he had unlocked something. His MAGA influencer was going strong, but he wondered if there was an untapped market out there. So… he tried to recreate the magic of Emily Hart, but this time for a liberal audience. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was a hit. Within a few weeks, she had over 15,000 followers on Instagram — which is a fraction of what the most popular real influencers have, but to build this following in such a short time period with such minimal effort? Real influencers grind for months to build that. Sam felt like he had unlocked something. His MAGA influencer was going strong, but he wondered if there was an untapped market out there. So… he tried to recreate the magic of Emily Hart, but this time for a liberal audience. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was very stereotypical. I mean, less aggressively so than Emily Hart, but it was like a girl with dyed red hair and a nose ring who would like post cute selfies with a coffee cup in Bushwick. You know, it was very generic. It was clear that she wasn’t as fully fleshed out as Emily Hart was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was very stereotypical. I mean, less aggressively so than Emily Hart, but it was like a girl with dyed red hair and a nose ring who would like post cute selfies with a coffee cup in Bushwick. You know, it was very generic. It was clear that she wasn’t as fully fleshed out as Emily Hart was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, it was a complete flop because people used to know that it’s an AI flop and they like, usually didn’t interact with it, like, they didn’t comment. They were like, “This is AI slop, this is trash, we don’t have time,” something like that. And like, the MAGA people were like crazy — “Are you single? Can I message you?” Something like that. They were, you can say, a little more lusty, you can say. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, it was a complete flop because people used to know that it’s an AI flop and they like, usually didn’t interact with it, like, they didn’t comment. They were like, “This is AI slop, this is trash, we don’t have time,” something like that. And like, the MAGA people were like crazy — “Are you single? Can I message you?” Something like that. They were, you can say, a little more lusty, you can say. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, it was fine. Sam had his hands full with Emily, anyway. In the early days, he got a real kick out of duping conservative men who had no idea they were talking to a 22-year-old Indian guy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, it was fine. Sam had his hands full with Emily, anyway. In the early days, he got a real kick out of duping conservative men who had no idea they were talking to a 22-year-old Indian guy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They were super racist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They were super racist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When he created Emily’s Facebook profile, he accidentally set his location to New Delhi. A random man messaged the profile. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When he created Emily’s Facebook profile, he accidentally set his location to New Delhi. A random man messaged the profile. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So, like, he went through my Facebook profile, he went through that, and he saw New Delhi. And he was like, “Have you been to India?” And I didn’t even say anything. And he used to like, “India is not a good place. It’s not safe for women. You shouldn’t have gone there.” And you know, the racist comments. And I didn’t talk to him. Like, he said, “Hi,” I said, “Hello.” Okay — then he started all this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So, like, he went through my Facebook profile, he went through that, and he saw New Delhi. And he was like, “Have you been to India?” And I didn’t even say anything. And he used to like, “India is not a good place. It’s not safe for women. You shouldn’t have gone there.” And you know, the racist comments. And I didn’t talk to him. Like, he said, “Hi,” I said, “Hello.” Okay — then he started all this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it never occurred to him that he could be just talking to someone who was Indian? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it never occurred to him that he could be just talking to someone who was Indian? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>No. It was a little fun like, you know, like, making a fool of such people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>No. It was a little fun like, you know, like, making a fool of such people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But this wasn’t just for fun. The entire reason he got into this was to make some cash. So, how did he monetize Emily Hart? That’s a new tab: why was Emily Hart so successful? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But this wasn’t just for fun. The entire reason he got into this was to make some cash. So, how did he monetize Emily Hart? That’s a new tab: why was Emily Hart so successful? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Instagram is very strict about nudity and adult content. So, like many real human sex workers, Emily’s Instagram account was a vehicle to drive engagement to another site: Fanvue. The most popular subscription platform for adult content is OnlyFans. Using AI tools to edit content and manage messages is allowed, but the site totally bans “synthetic personas” — fully AI-generated characters like Emily Hart. In fact, a lot of adult subscription sites do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Instagram is very strict about nudity and adult content. So, like many real human sex workers, Emily’s Instagram account was a vehicle to drive engagement to another site: Fanvue. The most popular subscription platform for adult content is OnlyFans. Using AI tools to edit content and manage messages is allowed, but the site totally bans “synthetic personas” — fully AI-generated characters like Emily Hart. In fact, a lot of adult subscription sites do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Instead, Sam used Fanvue, which is where a lot AI influencers sell nudes. Google’s Gemini blocks the generation of explicit content, and although there are ways to get around it, Sam’s hustle was all about doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money. So, he used Grok. He generated a couple nudes, uploaded them to Fanvue, set a subscription fee, and locked the juiciest content behind a paywall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Instead, Sam used Fanvue, which is where a lot AI influencers sell nudes. Google’s Gemini blocks the generation of explicit content, and although there are ways to get around it, Sam’s hustle was all about doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money. So, he used Grok. He generated a couple nudes, uploaded them to Fanvue, set a subscription fee, and locked the juiciest content behind a paywall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then… the cash started rolling in. Sam was blown away at how easily Americans spent money. He couldn’t believe they were tipping him — or really, Emily — just to respond to their messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then… the cash started rolling in. Sam was blown away at how easily Americans spent money. He couldn’t believe they were tipping him — or really, Emily — just to respond to their messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People used to hugely tip. I don’t know why people tip in USA — like, I am 22 years old, I have never in my life once seen someone tipping in India. And like, people were like, crazy, they used to tip me $20, $10, and I was thinking like, “Why people are sending me extra money? I dont know.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People used to hugely tip. I don’t know why people tip in USA — like, I am 22 years old, I have never in my life once seen someone tipping in India. And like, people were like, crazy, they used to tip me $20, $10, and I was thinking like, “Why people are sending me extra money? I dont know.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He made a few thousand dollars within days of starting the account. Again, human adult content creators grind for years to get this kind of audience… and to generate anything close to this amount of revenue. What was it about Emily that made her so popular? Ej has a theory. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He made a few thousand dollars within days of starting the account. Again, human adult content creators grind for years to get this kind of audience… and to generate anything close to this amount of revenue. What was it about Emily that made her so popular? Ej has a theory. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think that probably at the time that Sam was doing this, the space was a little less saturated, so there was less competition. And, I think, probably the most major contributor to this is the fact that there’s a really strong element of self-delusion at play here, right? In order to buy into Emily Hart’s whole persona, you not only have to believe that this woman exists, you have to be believe that she is a hot 24-year-old girl who exists and believes exactly the same things as you do — and validates every single opinion you have. I think these men got off to that probably more than anything. And I think that’s very powerful for the MAGA sect. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think that probably at the time that Sam was doing this, the space was a little less saturated, so there was less competition. And, I think, probably the most major contributor to this is the fact that there’s a really strong element of self-delusion at play here, right? In order to buy into Emily Hart’s whole persona, you not only have to believe that this woman exists, you have to be believe that she is a hot 24-year-old girl who exists and believes exactly the same things as you do — and validates every single opinion you have. I think these men got off to that probably more than anything. And I think that’s very powerful for the MAGA sect. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are real adult content creators who are also conservative. Ej pointed to Brandi Love, who’s known for making MILF porn and also being a vocal Trump supporter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are real adult content creators who are also conservative. Ej pointed to Brandi Love, who’s known for making MILF porn and also being a vocal Trump supporter. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think what differentiates Emily from someone like Brandi, is Brandi does not make it integral to her persona, right? She very rarely posts about politics, and that’s Emily’s entire brand is combining politics with sex. With the conservative adult creators, the politics are kind of incidental to the main product, which is the sex. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think what differentiates Emily from someone like Brandi, is Brandi does not make it integral to her persona, right? She very rarely posts about politics, and that’s Emily’s entire brand is combining politics with sex. With the conservative adult creators, the politics are kind of incidental to the main product, which is the sex. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam knew he was playing into some kind of fantasy, and soon after starting the Fanvue account, started feeling really bad about it. He didn’t like the idea of deceiving anyone for money. Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI, but Sam wasn’t making money there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If someone paid for my Fanvue, I used to disclose it — like, you should know this, before spending like, too much money. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And when subscribers sent him additional tips on Fanvue, he’d actually message them back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And when subscribers sent him additional tips on Fanvue, he’d actually message them back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, I used to say to them — “That you should know, I’m artificially generated.”. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, I used to say to them — “That you should know, I’m artificially generated.”. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The wild thing is, the subscribers didn’t seem to care at all — even when Sam reminded them that the girl they were paying wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The wild thing is, the subscribers didn’t seem to care at all — even when Sam reminded them that the girl they were paying wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, two or three people messaged me, like, “We think that you are AI-generated, but we love the reels you are making. You are supporting Trump, you are supporting the Republicans, so we will support you. We don’t care.” So, many were like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, two or three people messaged me, like, “We think that you are AI-generated, but we love the reels you are making. You are supporting Trump, you are supporting the Republicans, so we will support you. We don’t care.” So, many were like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really don’t think that the majority of these men care if the woman on the other side of the screen is fake — and that’s kind of the scariest part to me, because I think that that principle applies to AI-generated content on the internet in general. I don’t think people care if something is real or fake anymore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really don’t think that the majority of these men care if the woman on the other side of the screen is fake — and that’s kind of the scariest part to me, because I think that that principle applies to AI-generated content on the internet in general. I don’t think people care if something is real or fake anymore. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What would drive Emily Hart subscribers to continue following her, subscribing to her exclusive content, and even paying to DM her if they knew she wasn’t really a hot 24-year-old, pickup truck-driving, ice-fishing nurse in New York City? They knew the pictures they were liking and saving — among other things — were generated using AI. At that point, why continue following her? Why not just chat with an AI girlfriend on Character AI or something? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What would drive Emily Hart subscribers to continue following her, subscribing to her exclusive content, and even paying to DM her if they knew she wasn’t really a hot 24-year-old, pickup truck-driving, ice-fishing nurse in New York City? They knew the pictures they were liking and saving — among other things — were generated using AI. At that point, why continue following her? Why not just chat with an AI girlfriend on Character AI or something? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really think it comes down to this idea of intimacy, which is the whole reason why OnlyFans blew up in the first place. Like, the whole premise of OnlyFans is that men are directly connecting with the objects of their fantasies. And, the level of intimacy that is provided by that exchange goes beyond sex, it goes beyond getting off. It really is about human connection. So I think that a lot of the men who paid for Emily Hart’s content were sort of willing to suspend their disbelief in exchange for that element of intimacy, of connection, of human interaction that they were trying to convince themselves that they were getting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really think it comes down to this idea of intimacy, which is the whole reason why OnlyFans blew up in the first place. Like, the whole premise of OnlyFans is that men are directly connecting with the objects of their fantasies. And, the level of intimacy that is provided by that exchange goes beyond sex, it goes beyond getting off. It really is about human connection. So I think that a lot of the men who paid for Emily Hart’s content were sort of willing to suspend their disbelief in exchange for that element of intimacy, of connection, of human interaction that they were trying to convince themselves that they were getting. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was making way more money than he ever could have made working a part-time job during school. Every day, he generates some more Emily content and come up with a racist, xenophobic caption that he knew would get attention. He kept an eye on all the viral trends that other hot girls, AI or not, were doing on Instagram and TikTok. Emily’s fans weren’t just American either. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was making way more money than he ever could have made working a part-time job during school. Every day, he generates some more Emily content and come up with a racist, xenophobic caption that he knew would get attention. He kept an eye on all the viral trends that other hot girls, AI or not, were doing on Instagram and TikTok. Emily’s fans weren’t just American either. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I got a guy from Germany, I got a guy from Switzerland, like, many different people. Like, on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like, my DM was filled, every day I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I got a guy from Germany, I got a guy from Switzerland, like, many different people. Like, on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like, my DM was filled, every day I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam ignored most of the Instagram messages, but made sure that Fanvue subscribers got a response, because they had to pay to unlock those. The site has an AI feature that generates messages based on previous chats, so he could automate responses. Although he didn’t have to respond to subscribers himself, he did have to see what they sent back. And they were getting a little too comfortable in Emily’s DMs. That’s a whole new tab: Emily Hart’s Simp Army. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam ignored most of the Instagram messages, but made sure that Fanvue subscribers got a response, because they had to pay to unlock those. The site has an AI feature that generates messages based on previous chats, so he could automate responses. Although he didn’t have to respond to subscribers himself, he did have to see what they sent back. And they were getting a little too comfortable in Emily’s DMs. That’s a whole new tab: Emily Hart’s Simp Army. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On the upside? Sam made a good amount of money as Emily Hart. The downside? He was dealing with some real creeps. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On the upside? Sam made a good amount of money as Emily Hart. The downside? He was dealing with some real creeps. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I can’t even say what people were sending me to Instagram, like, it’s inappropriate. But like, people are sending inappropriate images, inappropriate messages. “Hey, are you single? What’s up? Where do you live?” Like, these are general. But like, some people were like, so creepy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I can’t even say what people were sending me to Instagram, like, it’s inappropriate. But like, people are sending inappropriate images, inappropriate messages. “Hey, are you single? What’s up? Where do you live?” Like, these are general. But like, some people were like, so creepy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Navigating the internet as Emily was an eye-opening experience for Sam. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Navigating the internet as Emily was an eye-opening experience for Sam. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My friends don’t even message me that much. When I started, I used to get like, 10-15 messages, easily. Like, so much attention. And I was thinking like, “Do pretty women get so much attention?” Like, I was like, surprised. But it’s not good kind of attention — it’s not the kind of attention people want. It’s super disgusting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My friends don’t even message me that much. When I started, I used to get like, 10-15 messages, easily. Like, so much attention. And I was thinking like, “Do pretty women get so much attention?” Like, I was like, surprised. But it’s not good kind of attention — it’s not the kind of attention people want. It’s super disgusting. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As Emily Hart — patriot and rising Fanvue star —Sam experienced what women haven’t subjected to since the birth of texting: unsolicited dick pics. He was appalled. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As Emily Hart — patriot and rising Fanvue star —Sam experienced what women haven’t subjected to since the birth of texting: unsolicited dick pics. He was appalled. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image. Like, it was super weird, super creepy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image. Like, it was super weird, super creepy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He learned to stop checking Emily Hart’s Instagram messages, but he couldn’t ignore the ones on Fanvue, because that’s where he was making money. One guy on Fanvue sent him 50 bucks, and then to accompany the tip, the subscriber attached a video of himself, naked, humping a pillow that propped up a tablet with Emily’s nude. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He learned to stop checking Emily Hart’s Instagram messages, but he couldn’t ignore the ones on Fanvue, because that’s where he was making money. One guy on Fanvue sent him 50 bucks, and then to accompany the tip, the subscriber attached a video of himself, naked, humping a pillow that propped up a tablet with Emily’s nude. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I mean, these guys were sending him cum tributes, like they were ejaculating on photos of Emily Hart, or like sending videos of themselves masturbating on Emily Hart’s photo — and he would have to see this, like, all the time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I mean, these guys were sending him cum tributes, like they were ejaculating on photos of Emily Hart, or like sending videos of themselves masturbating on Emily Hart’s photo — and he would have to see this, like, all the time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, there was the emotional toll, too. The unsolicited videos were gross, but they were nothing compared to the trauma-dumping that Emily’s subscribers did in her DMs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, there was the emotional toll, too. The unsolicited videos were gross, but they were nothing compared to the trauma-dumping that Emily’s subscribers did in her DMs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He would get messages all the time from people who would buy her videos and buy her exclusive content — and they would be like, “Are you real or are you AI?” But then they would go on and talk about their days, or talk about how lonely they were, how much they hated their wives. I found Sam very thoughtful and self-reflective. I think that he felt guilty about deceiving them, honestly. They would share things with him sometimes that went beyond the typical OnlyFans model-subscriber relationship. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He would get messages all the time from people who would buy her videos and buy her exclusive content — and they would be like, “Are you real or are you AI?” But then they would go on and talk about their days, or talk about how lonely they were, how much they hated their wives. I found Sam very thoughtful and self-reflective. I think that he felt guilty about deceiving them, honestly. They would share things with him sometimes that went beyond the typical OnlyFans model-subscriber relationship. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just going back to that idea of intimacy and human connection, like they would talk about how terrible their marriages were and they hadn’t slept in the same bed as and their wives in years and how they recently lost a parent or a beloved family member. When there was a theoretical audience of dumb MAGA guys paying for this content, I think he was more comfortable with that than with engaging with them all on an individual level and being like, “Oh, these are real people with real problems.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just going back to that idea of intimacy and human connection, like they would talk about how terrible their marriages were and they hadn’t slept in the same bed as and their wives in years and how they recently lost a parent or a beloved family member. When there was a theoretical audience of dumb MAGA guys paying for this content, I think he was more comfortable with that than with engaging with them all on an individual level and being like, “Oh, these are real people with real problems.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The AI MAGA hot girl venture was supposed to be easy cash. And the fact that he was tricking Americans, whose politics he fundamentally disagreed with — who would probably be horrified to find out they were sending cum tributes to a 22-year-old Indian guy — felt like poetic justice. But the grift… stoped being fun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The AI MAGA hot girl venture was supposed to be easy cash. And the fact that he was tricking Americans, whose politics he fundamentally disagreed with — who would probably be horrified to find out they were sending cum tributes to a 22-year-old Indian guy — felt like poetic justice. But the grift… stoped being fun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it got too intense. I think he got burnt out by it very fast. He wasn’t doing it for very long. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it got too intense. I think he got burnt out by it very fast. He wasn’t doing it for very long. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the Instagram ban started. The scammer accusations followed. Emily Hart, AKA Sam, was under fire. That’s it for part one of the story, but don’t worry. We’re not finished with this deep dive yet. Next week, we’re getting into the rest of the Emily Hart saga, the scammer debate, and what happened with Sam’s lifelong dream of moving to America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the Instagram ban started. The scammer accusations followed. Emily Hart, AKA Sam, was under fire. That’s it for part one of the story, but don’t worry. We’re not finished with this deep dive yet. Next week, we’re getting into the rest of the Emily Hart saga, the scammer debate, and what happened with Sam’s lifelong dream of moving to America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs before part two drops next week, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. We’re leaving these tabs open for now. So, come back for the rest of the story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs before part two drops next week, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. We’re leaving these tabs open for now. So, come back for the rest of the story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited and audio engineered by Chris Egusa. Production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited and audio engineered by Chris Egusa. Production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his White Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his White Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. We also used a clip of the song “Billie Eilish” by Armani White. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Can I say cum tributes on here or should I just- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Can I say cum tributes on here or should I just- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But you will have to, uh — for the normies — explain what cum tributes are. \u003cem>[Laughs].\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But you will have to, uh — for the normies — explain what cum tributes are. \u003cem>[Laughs].\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Emily Hart was a pickup-driving, Trump-supporting blonde bombshell who frequently posted photos on Instagram along with captions about “deporting illegals.” Within a few weeks she gained thousands of followers. It was like she was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere — because she was. A 22-year-old medical student in India who goes by “Sam” is the person behind Emily Hart, and he shepherded her to viral fame with a combination of right-wing engagement baiting and AI assistance. Reporter Ej Dickson, who wrote about Sam and Emily Hart for WIRED, describes how he was able to grift so many conservative men. And Sam himself explains how something that began as a fun side-hustle took a disturbing turn.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8396912565\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/author/ej-dickson/\">Ej Dickson\u003c/a>, senior culture writer at\u003cem> Wired\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Sam,” creator of AI MAGA Influencer Emily Hart\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/ai-generated-maga-girls/\">This Scammer Used an AI-Generated MAGA Girl to Grift ‘Super Dumb’ Men \u003c/a> — Ej Dickson, \u003cem>Wired\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/ai-generated-influencers-a-new-wave-of-cultural-exploitation-248956\">AI‑generated influencers: A new wave of cultural exploitation\u003c/a> — Ateqah Khaki & Vinita Srivastava, \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-brandi-love-the-pro-trump-porn-star-who-writes-for-the-federalist/\">Meet Brandi Love, the Pro-Trump Porn Star Who Writes for The Federalist\u003c/a> — Marlow Stern, \u003cem>The Daily Beast \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://theworld.org/stories/2026/06/19/challenges-under-indias-university-reservation-system\">Challenges under India’s university reservation system \u003c/a> — Namrata Kolachalam, \u003cem>The World \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabby Cats, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends — post about it. You too, can be part of our volunteer clipping army. We can’t let the looksmaxxers win the clip wars. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just a note, this episode contains some graphic descriptions of sexual content, so listen with care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>So, Emily Hart was a 23-year-old nurse, I believe? Born in Buffalo, lived in New York City, who loved ice fishing and Michelob Light and America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ej Dickson is a reporter for Wired. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>My job is to explain things that people are too afraid to Google at work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And at the beginning of the year, she started looking into this influencer… who went by Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And she was a very pretty blonde girl, she looked a little bit like Jennifer Lawrence… loved posing on her pickup truck, in American flag bikinis. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily frequently wore a bright red, “Make America Great Again” hat in her photos. She would post Instagram reels set to John Denver’s “Take Me Home, Country Roads,” with captions laden with American flag emojis. Most of her content was about deporting, quote, “illegals” and supporting Trump. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Love posting racist memes and transphobic memes — you know, touching every single one of the MAGA bases. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She had that no-makeup makeup look, and when she wasn’t in a bikini or ice fishing, she posted about being a nurse. Within a few weeks of starting her account, Emily Hart had more than 10,000 followers. It was like everything about her was engineered to go viral in the MAGA-sphere. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There are certain aspects of the Emily Hart brand that are so uniquely American that people who are only from America would understand like, ice fishing or Michelob Ultra and sort of the status that it has as the beer of like, the MAGA world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She’s a Trump supporter’s perfect woman. There’s just one problem — Emily Hart is not real. She’s completely AI-generated. If you look past her perfect body, bleached hair, and very polarizing captions, you’d spot the inconsistencies. I mean, who goes ice fishing in a bikini? EJ said that those inconsistencies are what tipped her off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Her profile said that she went to school in New York and currently lived in New York and she was from Buffalo — like the chances are very low that somebody that explicitly conservative would move to New York City for college and live in New York city and be like, a real human being — honestly. I mean, I’m sure they exist — I don’t think they look like Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in 2024, following Trump’s presidential win, EJ started seeing all of these tradwife-adjacent videos. They almost all featured a beautiful young blonde woman, in her 20s, kneading dough or sweeping the floor of a rustic kitchen. And, unlike the more modestly dressed tradwife influencers who popularized this content, the women in these videos were almost always wearing very low- cut dresses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>There was sort of this sense of uncanny valley attached to them where it was like, “Oh these don’t really look like real people,” but they’re obviously trying to cater to a real… and honestly very terrifying audience. So, I started digging into it, because I saw one or two of these accounts and I was like “I bet there are more of them,” and just fell down this rabbit hole of AI MAGA hot girl accounts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was just one of countless AI MAGA hot girls taking over Instagram. These women are not real, but the people running their accounts are — and Ej found one of them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My pseudonym is Sam. I am a 22-year-old medical student. Currently, I am in my final year of medical school, and that’s pretty much it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam is the creator of Emily Hart, and what began as a get-rich-quick scheme for him quickly spiraled out of control. So, who is Sam, and what would possess him to create an AI MAGA hot girl? The saga of Emily Hart is such a wild ride that we’re actually going to split this deep dive into two parts. There’s so much to unpack here about the strange intersection of politics, AI, virtual influencers, privilege, and digital sex work. But today, we’re starting with Sam’s story. How did this 22-year-old student in India manage to dupe so many conservative men? Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know how every good deep dive starts. Let’s open a new tab: Who is the real Emily Hart? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve probably picked up on this by now, but this tab is not about Emily Hart at all. It’s about the guy who made her. And in some ways, he’s like a lot of other straight guys his age. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I’m a big time gym rat. Like, even right now like, I’m talking to you and I’m completing my daily steps. Building a lean physique, getting shredded — that gives me happiness. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He asked that we call him Sam. We’re using a pseudonym for him because he’s in his final year of medical school, and is concerned about how this story could jeopardize his medical career and ability to emigrate to another country after graduation. Sam is 22, lives in northern India, and is studying orthopedic surgery. He’s from a middle-class family. Like a lot of Indians, he lives in an intergenerational household with his parents, grandparents, aunt, and uncle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, my cousins, they are like my real brother and sister — you get a lot of love, you get a lot of support. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And Sam has always been fascinated by American culture. When I got on a call with him, he was like, “Wait, you live in Los Angeles? Is it really like Grand Theft Auto?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I follow American politics. I wanted to do my post-graduation from USA. I was super into American culture, like — playing GTA, Grand Theft Auto, like, watching, uh, you can say, TV show, of like How I Met Your Mother, Friends, and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just pop culture that made him want to immigrate here. He also wanted to leave India altogether. As close as his family is, his upbringing was, at times, strained. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It was not pleasant, you can say. Like, there is this thing called caste system in India. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>India’s caste system is thousands of years old. Historically, castes were tied to specific occupations. The higher castes were priests and warriors and rulers. The middle caste were merchants and skilled artisans. The lower caste did farm work or were servants. And then, there were people who were considered “untouchable” — and they faced the most discrimination, even today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To make up for generations of discrimination and economic inequality, the Indian government has a series of programs called “reservation.” It’s kind of like affirmative action — with strict quotas. A certain percentage of government jobs and public university spots are reserved for members of lower castes. The reservation system is very controversial in India, because it’s not based on current financial status. It’s based purely on caste, which is fixed at birth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You know, like, reservation and caste system were introduced to uplift the lower class — uplift the backward people. It started as a good idea. You know, my family has decent money, like — okay-okay money — we are not very rich. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam’s ancestors were jewelers and fell into that middle tier of merchants and artisans. They’ve been solidly middle-class for generations. His family could not have afforded private school, so he had to compete for one of the very limited spots at his public university. There’s a key tension here between caste and class. Sam doesn’t come from a ton of money. He doesn’t have the same resources and safety net that the upper echelon of Indian society has. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The reservation system was designed to level the playing field. While it uplifts the most oppressed classes, Sam feels like it leaves the middle class behind. He said his own opportunities in India are limited — and that there’s no upward mobility for him. Becoming a doctor was never his great life goal… but, it’s a stable career that offers a considerably better salary than other jobs in India. And, there’s demand for doctors all over the world — he sees it as a ticket out of the caste system. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sam had his sights set on America. He saw it as a land of meritocracy and Grand Theft Auto. But while his parents helped him with tuition and licensing exam fees, he wanted to travel. He needed to buy his protein powder so that he could, as he put it, “get shredded.” And he wanted save up for his potential move to the U.S. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, he needed money. The problem? He’s in his last year of a five-and-a-half year medical program — and when he isn’t in class or working his medical internship, he’s studying for this big entrance exam to get into a post-grad medical specialty program. Plus, the job market in India sucks. Sam said that most entry-level, part-time jobs that college students typically get pay like, a dollar an hour. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If you work four hours per day for a whole month, you can hardly earn like, $100 for a month. And like, I didn’t want to, you know, put so much effort for so little cash. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And, Sam is a product of his generation. It’s not just his gym rat tendencies. It’s what made his story so compelling to Ej. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Sam is, I think, pretty representative of Gen Z males, in that there’s very much an emphasis on like, online side hustles. There were a lot of things that he tried to do to make money. He was doing online fitness coaching for a while, he was doing some of that like, drop shipping nonsense that all the Gen Z boys do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He tutored and sold notes and study guides for the U.S. medical licensing exam, which he already passed. He once saw Instagram ads about monetizing AI clips, so he started making AI Roblox videos for YouTube shorts. He was kind of just… chasing side hustles until something stuck. Then, while scrolling through Instagram, he came across this influencer. She was gorgeous, but Sam could tell she was AI-generated. And yet, she had a huge audience — all from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>She uploads pictures with Donald Trump. She’s a blonde military girl that uploads pictures with Donald Trump — and like, she had like, thousands and millions of likes, thousands of followers, so I wanted to create that. Like, Donald Trump — everyone knows him, everyone knows what he is doing, and you know, even like, me and my friends who follow American politics, we used to joke around MAGA people that they are so dumb, like they don’t understand anything… and like how can someone support Donald Trump? Like, after all that he’s doing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He hatched a plan: make a hot AI girl, go viral, and get rich. He opened Google’s AI image generator, also known as Nano Banana Pro. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I use a lot of Gemini. I never use ChatGPT — I am a Gemini guy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam initially tried to make the Indian version of the blonde military girl influencer, but it didn’t work out. For one, he said that because mainstream AI models are trained on American culture, Gemini struggled to generate a realistic-looking Indian woman. The hot Indian girl he was trying to create just looked… fake. And the second issue: he realized that Indian men just don’t spend money the way American men do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong> And like USA, there is big tipping culture — people, you know, easily pay- they are more willing to pay. That’s why I changed it to an American influencer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But first, he had to decide what this American influencer would be like. Sam turned to Gemini, which told him the influencer shouldn’t just be a “pretty girl.” She needed depth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>You shouldn’t create- just create a beautiful women with no personality. You want people to connect with your Instagram model — then they will be connected with you, then they will buy your services, etcetera. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam had a new plan: create a hot blonde AI girl, go viral, and get rich. She would appeal to the typical American man — so that Sam could cash in on those sweet American tips. And she wouldn’t just look the part, she would have the personality of an all-American girl. Through TV shows, video games, and following American politics, he was familiar enough with American culture to pull it off. With a couple of curated prompts, he had a handful of images to start her account. The last thing he needed was a name. And that came from Gemini too: Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey guys, just enjoying the sun by the pool today. This feels so good. I’m gonna dip my toes in, so refreshing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily took off — thousands of followers in just a few weeks. Sam had unlocked the formula to reach a very specific group of American men. So, how did he do it? We’re getting into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going! You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break, Emily Hart goes MAGA. Stick around. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: Becoming Emily Hart. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Gemini’s suggestion, Sam created a profile for Emily Hart, a blonde nurse from Buffalo who lives in New York City. It was pretty generic at first. He started posting as Emily in January, and immediately started getting attention… from a certain demographic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Once I created it, like, initially four or five DMs, all the DMs I got, was from, you can say, old 60, 70-year-old, MAGA people like, pro-MAGA, pro-right — like, those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>And Gemini was apparently like, “You need to make a MAGA girl. You need to like a hot MAGA in a bikini, like, that’s gold.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He started posting images of Emily ice-fishing, drinking beer, and sexily firing rounds at the shooting range. He wrote captions like: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>If you want a reason to unfollow? Christ is king, abortion is murder, and all illegals must be deported. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>POV: you were assigned intelligent at birth, but you identify as a liberal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Followed by a clown emoji.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He approached it as a craft, and he really spent a lot of time trying to perfect his craft on Gemini —because the space was so saturated, that he really needed a gimmick or a niche to kind of corner in order to be successful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It took a couple of weeks of consistent posting, but the payoff was real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>It took me three weeks to get initial 1,000 subscribers. And from there, in one week, I had like 14,000-15,000 subscribers, 20 million views and like, all that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It helped that Emily’s audience wasn’t the most tech savvy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I want to be clear that Gemini did not explicitly say this, but I do think that that audience is probably less technologically well-versed than progressives are, and therefore more gullible and more prone to falling toward this kind of scheme. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam echoed this… more strongly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to stereotype, but — like, what I have observed, like, the liberals and the left-wing people, they are usually smart. They are — you know, they have basic common sense. And you know, the MAGA people are like, super dumb people. I should not say that, but they are like — you can say they are not that aware on, you can say, technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>That’s not to say that there aren’t easily duped liberals. I do think that internet MAGA has a much, much stronger digital aesthetic than progressives do, for sure. There’s an iconography attached to it — and just seeing like, a blonde white girl wearing an American flag bikini while ice fishing, I mean, how much more MAGA can you get? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily’s very strong visual political identity resonated with her followers. Maybe that’s why they were less likely to be suspicious of her — the bright red MAGA hat she often wore also helped obscure some of the inconsistencies in her post. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>AI really, you know, messes up the hair also. So, to get around that, I used to include a MAGA cap in like, every image I make. So basically, like, I used to include accessories like sunglasses and MAGA cap to, you know, get two different… like, make it more believable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it wasn’t even just, like, to appeal to MAGA. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Yeah, actually, it was — you know, it was beneficial in both ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or, maybe they didn’t suspect anything because she was hot, and that was disarming enough. Because, there were definitely red flags in Emily’s content. Video generation was less convincing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emily Hart video]: \u003c/strong>Hey, handsome. I just got back to my tiny apartment after a 12-hour shift at Bellevue. NYC is just so loud tonight, but honestly? All I can think about is how much I missed you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So Sam usually stuck to images — but even then, he said Gemini couldn’t quite get the eyes right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, you can say that it’s- it might not be real — there is something wrong with the picture. So you know what I used to do? Like, I used include sunglasses in every picture — every picture, I used to include sunglasses. Like, she’s wearing black sunglasses everywhere. Like she is ice-fishing, she is wearing sunglasses, like she’s inside her home, she’s wearing sunglasses. Even at night, she’s wearing sunglasses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam studied up on MAGA ideology and how Trump supporters interact online. Every day, he’d spend 30 minutes to an hour creating content that was pro-Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, and anti-abortion. The more divisive the caption, the more engagement he got as Emily. He didn’t believe in any of this, but he knew what would get attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Weirdly, it was a scam that only somebody who was really interested in American culture could have pulled off, I think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam has a real knack for engagement bait: engineering content that tricks social media algorithms to boost a post. Like, he was inspired by this TikTok trend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>There was a trend — on this song, like, it was around two years ago and it was this song — “I’m stylish, big top, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok trend video]: \u003c/strong>Bitch I’m stylish, black talk, big t-shirt, Billie Eilish. Watch on my wrist but I want that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The videos usually started with someone getting ready, in a frumpy get-up — and, when the beat dropped, it would cut to them, fully glammed up. Sam was inspired by that split-second transition on the beat. So, using other songs, he put his own spin on it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I used to upload like, you can say, a catfish type of reel. There was like, four to six seconds reel of Emily Hart, a picture with her like, normal clothes. And then I used a sneak-in, like, for a millisecond, a picture of her in a swimsuit, you can say… sort of, like, a decent word — a swimsuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Driven by horny curiosity, viewers would try to pause the video in time to see the picture. And if they didn’t catch it in time, they’d have to play the video again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And for that, they used to again and again, see multiple times, like four, five times, six times. So that Instagram gets the signal that this reel is so good that people are viewing it five to six times, so promote it. So normally I used to get like 200, 300 views, and like, these type of views used to get like, 10,000, 50,000, 25,000 views. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Emily Hart was a hit. Within a few weeks, she had over 15,000 followers on Instagram — which is a fraction of what the most popular real influencers have, but to build this following in such a short time period with such minimal effort? Real influencers grind for months to build that. Sam felt like he had unlocked something. His MAGA influencer was going strong, but he wondered if there was an untapped market out there. So… he tried to recreate the magic of Emily Hart, but this time for a liberal audience. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>It was very stereotypical. I mean, less aggressively so than Emily Hart, but it was like a girl with dyed red hair and a nose ring who would like post cute selfies with a coffee cup in Bushwick. You know, it was very generic. It was clear that she wasn’t as fully fleshed out as Emily Hart was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, it was a complete flop because people used to know that it’s an AI flop and they like, usually didn’t interact with it, like, they didn’t comment. They were like, “This is AI slop, this is trash, we don’t have time,” something like that. And like, the MAGA people were like crazy — “Are you single? Can I message you?” Something like that. They were, you can say, a little more lusty, you can say. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But, it was fine. Sam had his hands full with Emily, anyway. In the early days, he got a real kick out of duping conservative men who had no idea they were talking to a 22-year-old Indian guy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>They were super racist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>When he created Emily’s Facebook profile, he accidentally set his location to New Delhi. A random man messaged the profile. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>So, like, he went through my Facebook profile, he went through that, and he saw New Delhi. And he was like, “Have you been to India?” And I didn’t even say anything. And he used to like, “India is not a good place. It’s not safe for women. You shouldn’t have gone there.” And you know, the racist comments. And I didn’t talk to him. Like, he said, “Hi,” I said, “Hello.” Okay — then he started all this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it never occurred to him that he could be just talking to someone who was Indian? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>No. It was a little fun like, you know, like, making a fool of such people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But this wasn’t just for fun. The entire reason he got into this was to make some cash. So, how did he monetize Emily Hart? That’s a new tab: why was Emily Hart so successful? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instagram is very strict about nudity and adult content. So, like many real human sex workers, Emily’s Instagram account was a vehicle to drive engagement to another site: Fanvue. The most popular subscription platform for adult content is OnlyFans. Using AI tools to edit content and manage messages is allowed, but the site totally bans “synthetic personas” — fully AI-generated characters like Emily Hart. In fact, a lot of adult subscription sites do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instead, Sam used Fanvue, which is where a lot AI influencers sell nudes. Google’s Gemini blocks the generation of explicit content, and although there are ways to get around it, Sam’s hustle was all about doing the least amount of work for the most amount of money. So, he used Grok. He generated a couple nudes, uploaded them to Fanvue, set a subscription fee, and locked the juiciest content behind a paywall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then… the cash started rolling in. Sam was blown away at how easily Americans spent money. He couldn’t believe they were tipping him — or really, Emily — just to respond to their messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>People used to hugely tip. I don’t know why people tip in USA — like, I am 22 years old, I have never in my life once seen someone tipping in India. And like, people were like, crazy, they used to tip me $20, $10, and I was thinking like, “Why people are sending me extra money? I dont know.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He made a few thousand dollars within days of starting the account. Again, human adult content creators grind for years to get this kind of audience… and to generate anything close to this amount of revenue. What was it about Emily that made her so popular? Ej has a theory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think that probably at the time that Sam was doing this, the space was a little less saturated, so there was less competition. And, I think, probably the most major contributor to this is the fact that there’s a really strong element of self-delusion at play here, right? In order to buy into Emily Hart’s whole persona, you not only have to believe that this woman exists, you have to be believe that she is a hot 24-year-old girl who exists and believes exactly the same things as you do — and validates every single opinion you have. I think these men got off to that probably more than anything. And I think that’s very powerful for the MAGA sect. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are real adult content creators who are also conservative. Ej pointed to Brandi Love, who’s known for making MILF porn and also being a vocal Trump supporter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think what differentiates Emily from someone like Brandi, is Brandi does not make it integral to her persona, right? She very rarely posts about politics, and that’s Emily’s entire brand is combining politics with sex. With the conservative adult creators, the politics are kind of incidental to the main product, which is the sex. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam knew he was playing into some kind of fantasy, and soon after starting the Fanvue account, started feeling really bad about it. He didn’t like the idea of deceiving anyone for money. Emily Hart’s Instagram account wasn’t labeled as AI, but Sam wasn’t making money there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>If someone paid for my Fanvue, I used to disclose it — like, you should know this, before spending like, too much money. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And when subscribers sent him additional tips on Fanvue, he’d actually message them back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>And like, I used to say to them — “That you should know, I’m artificially generated.”. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The wild thing is, the subscribers didn’t seem to care at all — even when Sam reminded them that the girl they were paying wasn’t real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, two or three people messaged me, like, “We think that you are AI-generated, but we love the reels you are making. You are supporting Trump, you are supporting the Republicans, so we will support you. We don’t care.” So, many were like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really don’t think that the majority of these men care if the woman on the other side of the screen is fake — and that’s kind of the scariest part to me, because I think that that principle applies to AI-generated content on the internet in general. I don’t think people care if something is real or fake anymore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What would drive Emily Hart subscribers to continue following her, subscribing to her exclusive content, and even paying to DM her if they knew she wasn’t really a hot 24-year-old, pickup truck-driving, ice-fishing nurse in New York City? They knew the pictures they were liking and saving — among other things — were generated using AI. At that point, why continue following her? Why not just chat with an AI girlfriend on Character AI or something? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I really think it comes down to this idea of intimacy, which is the whole reason why OnlyFans blew up in the first place. Like, the whole premise of OnlyFans is that men are directly connecting with the objects of their fantasies. And, the level of intimacy that is provided by that exchange goes beyond sex, it goes beyond getting off. It really is about human connection. So I think that a lot of the men who paid for Emily Hart’s content were sort of willing to suspend their disbelief in exchange for that element of intimacy, of connection, of human interaction that they were trying to convince themselves that they were getting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam was making way more money than he ever could have made working a part-time job during school. Every day, he generates some more Emily content and come up with a racist, xenophobic caption that he knew would get attention. He kept an eye on all the viral trends that other hot girls, AI or not, were doing on Instagram and TikTok. Emily’s fans weren’t just American either. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I got a guy from Germany, I got a guy from Switzerland, like, many different people. Like, on Instagram, I didn’t use to reply because like, my DM was filled, every day I get 100, 200, 300 messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sam ignored most of the Instagram messages, but made sure that Fanvue subscribers got a response, because they had to pay to unlock those. The site has an AI feature that generates messages based on previous chats, so he could automate responses. Although he didn’t have to respond to subscribers himself, he did have to see what they sent back. And they were getting a little too comfortable in Emily’s DMs. That’s a whole new tab: Emily Hart’s Simp Army. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the upside? Sam made a good amount of money as Emily Hart. The downside? He was dealing with some real creeps. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>I can’t even say what people were sending me to Instagram, like, it’s inappropriate. But like, people are sending inappropriate images, inappropriate messages. “Hey, are you single? What’s up? Where do you live?” Like, these are general. But like, some people were like, so creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Navigating the internet as Emily was an eye-opening experience for Sam. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>My friends don’t even message me that much. When I started, I used to get like, 10-15 messages, easily. Like, so much attention. And I was thinking like, “Do pretty women get so much attention?” Like, I was like, surprised. But it’s not good kind of attention — it’s not the kind of attention people want. It’s super disgusting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As Emily Hart — patriot and rising Fanvue star —Sam experienced what women haven’t subjected to since the birth of texting: unsolicited dick pics. He was appalled. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam: \u003c/strong>Like, directly, blatantly, like, no context, no “hi,” and then the image. Like, it was super weird, super creepy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He learned to stop checking Emily Hart’s Instagram messages, but he couldn’t ignore the ones on Fanvue, because that’s where he was making money. One guy on Fanvue sent him 50 bucks, and then to accompany the tip, the subscriber attached a video of himself, naked, humping a pillow that propped up a tablet with Emily’s nude. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I mean, these guys were sending him cum tributes, like they were ejaculating on photos of Emily Hart, or like sending videos of themselves masturbating on Emily Hart’s photo — and he would have to see this, like, all the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, there was the emotional toll, too. The unsolicited videos were gross, but they were nothing compared to the trauma-dumping that Emily’s subscribers did in her DMs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>He would get messages all the time from people who would buy her videos and buy her exclusive content — and they would be like, “Are you real or are you AI?” But then they would go on and talk about their days, or talk about how lonely they were, how much they hated their wives. I found Sam very thoughtful and self-reflective. I think that he felt guilty about deceiving them, honestly. They would share things with him sometimes that went beyond the typical OnlyFans model-subscriber relationship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just going back to that idea of intimacy and human connection, like they would talk about how terrible their marriages were and they hadn’t slept in the same bed as and their wives in years and how they recently lost a parent or a beloved family member. When there was a theoretical audience of dumb MAGA guys paying for this content, I think he was more comfortable with that than with engaging with them all on an individual level and being like, “Oh, these are real people with real problems.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The AI MAGA hot girl venture was supposed to be easy cash. And the fact that he was tricking Americans, whose politics he fundamentally disagreed with — who would probably be horrified to find out they were sending cum tributes to a 22-year-old Indian guy — felt like poetic justice. But the grift… stoped being fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>I think it got too intense. I think he got burnt out by it very fast. He wasn’t doing it for very long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then the Instagram ban started. The scammer accusations followed. Emily Hart, AKA Sam, was under fire. That’s it for part one of the story, but don’t worry. We’re not finished with this deep dive yet. Next week, we’re getting into the rest of the Emily Hart saga, the scammer debate, and what happened with Sam’s lifelong dream of moving to America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As usual, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs before part two drops next week, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. We’re leaving these tabs open for now. So, come back for the rest of the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited and audio engineered by Chris Egusa. Production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his White Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes AI-generated clips of Emily Hart, courtesy of Sam. We also used a clip of the song “Billie Eilish” by Armani White. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Can I say cum tributes on here or should I just- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But you will have to, uh — for the normies — explain what cum tributes are. \u003cem>[Laughs].\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ej Dickson: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Twitch streamer Denims made a reaction video about Ethan Klein’s nearly two-hour takedown video of Hasan Piker, she wasn’t expecting to be sued for copyright infringement. She employed a commonly-used method of streaming the original video and interjecting with reactions, commentary and analysis. But Klein, who was once seen as a champion of fair use after he won a similar lawsuit in 2017, sued Denims and other content creators anyway. Morgan talks to Denims and journalist Kat Tenbarge about what made these cases different and how reaction content across the internet could change based on how the courts ultimately rule.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5056668526\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/denims\">Denims\u003c/a>, political Twitch streamer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/kattenbarge?s=20\">Kat Tenbarge\u003c/a>, independent journalist, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061994/a-political-reckoning-for-twitch\">A Political Reckoning for Twitch? | KQED\u003c/a> — Close All Tabs, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-lawsuits-kaceytron-frogan-denims\">Ethan Klein’s War on Women\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-seandablack-lawsuits-kaceytron-denims-frogan-taylor-lorenz\">Ethan Klein Doesn’t Deserve My Apology\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/culture/2025/07/01/a-youtuber-kicks-up-a-stink-over-a-flatulent-reaction-video\">A YouTuber kicks up a stink over a flatulent “reaction” video\u003c/a> — staff, \u003cem>The Economist\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://copyrightlately.com/whats-up-copyright-lately-summer-2026-roundup/#h-content-nuked\">What’s Up With Copyright Lately?: Summer Breeze Edition\u003c/a> — Aaron Moss, \u003cem>Copyright Lately\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tubefilter.com/2024/09/19/should-youtube-introduce-revenue-sharing-for-reaction-content/\">Should YouTube introduce revenue-sharing for reaction content?\u003c/a> — James Hale, \u003cem>Tubefilter\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/reactgate-twitch-streamer-xqc-and-h3-podcast-host-ethan-klein-debate-whether-reaction-videos-are-stolen-content-215557884.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEHVC7yDZDpT9LR_mf2G9uNjbyzmVlCsUX88WTUkq-MGvwqcdCJw5UOuLLQrhAajCZzEi6bejwgRXLx5IK-BfXlRk0Q3ME8WghOI7A2Zqq5tCmPrEEuKTSYSQ-NzB1mJiijoGkCHCb_3T82qwCQbTkjpmoJju6xjtmOBKcvZwf5H\">‘Reactgate’: Twitch streamer xQc and ‘H3 Podcast’ host Ethan Klein debate whether ‘reaction videos’ are ‘stolen content’\u003c/a> — Katie Mather, \u003cem>Yahoo News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/4349864/ethan-klein-h3h3productions-fair-use-protection-account-fupa/\">How h3h3’s Ethan Klein Might Change YouTube Forever\u003c/a> — Melissa Chan, \u003cem>Time Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Tabbies. We need your help. If you like our deep dives and you want to hear more, then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video] \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hi there. It’s me, your old friend, Ethan Klein. It’s been a while since we’ve last spoken. In that time I’ve had three kids, all boys, I’ve lost a hundred pounds, and I’ve pissed off 75% of the in-\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And I became insane.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That second voice you just heard is Alexandra Saber, a Twitch streamer better known as…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Everyone I know calls me Denims, so…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna keep calling her Denims for this episode. She’s been on the show before, when we talked about the growing corner of political commentary on Twitch. The situation we’re diving into today is related to that. So last year, Ethan Klein, the YouTuber behind the channel H3H3 Productions and host of the H3 Podcast, dropped a content nuke. This is a long-form video format that Ethan himself popularized. It’s basically an extensive takedown criticizing another creator for their behavior, comments, and past posts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The content nuke is like a deep dive, building the case to cancel someone else. Ethan had been teasing this video for months, so his fan base was pretty hyped. And this one was about someone he had been publicly feuding with for years: streamer, political commentator, and his former friend, Hasan Piker. Ethan’s nearly 2-hour-long video starts with J. Robert Oppenheimer quoting Hindu scripture, which he famously referenced after he watched the detonation of the nuclear bomb he designed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[ Audio of J. Robert Oppenheimer]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then the video launches into a super cut of clips from Hasan’s stream, layered with footage of a nuclear bomb after impact, mushroom cloud and all. Denims wasn’t impressed, so she streamed her reaction, which did involve playing the video on her channel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of wild claims that were made in that video that were just factually untrue. And so I would pause, I would make jokes or I’d pause and I would say, well, this isn’t true. Like, here’s this and this and this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims’ reaction Twitch stream]\u003cbr>Speaker: That lines up with leftist values.\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hasan’s third claim is—\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[clicking sound]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: Okay, first of all, they he’s not even providing sources for half of this stuff. I… He’s provided like bits and segments, if any. Okay?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I think people just like myself, when I’m curious about a video, but I know that it’s going to be filled with falsehoods, I want to watch an expert talk about it and break down what’s wrong with that video, sort of like watching in a weird way, I guess, like Mythbusters. And I think that’s why a lot of people tuned into my stream to watch that the two hour video turned into a four hour livestream, cause I wanted to see someone say, no, this isn’t true. Here’s this article that shows this isn’t true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, months later, she found herself at the center of one of the most talked about lawsuits in the content creator world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I do remember that I found out the exact same way that everyone else found out. So he released this video on like June, was it, I think it was 19th.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: Hi there. My name is Ethan Klein, and my favorite hobby is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. Today, I invite you into my home to share my favorite past time with you. Join me in creating generational wealth for my attorney.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>This is a video, another video that he had been teasing for a while and I was kind of curious what it was gonna be about. I was like, is it gonna be a sequel to the original? Is it gonna be a video on some other creators? And so I’m like watching this video, I’m, like, hmm, that’s me on the screen. That is an official court document with my name on it. And then I click and it’s like, it’s almost a little bit disbelief that it’s real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Well, I’m happy to tell you guys now, I, Ethan Klein, have registered Hasan Piker content nuke with the United States Library of Congress. Some of you guys out there sweating?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims’ stream falls under this genre known as reaction content, videos and live streams in which creators react to and comment on content made by others. You’ll see this on Twitch and TikTok and YouTube and Reels. They’ll play a short clip from a movie or political speech or someone else’s video, and then give their take. Reaction content relies on this legal doctrine called fair use. Fair use is what protects the unlicensed use of copyrighted material if it’s used in news reporting, criticism, teaching, research, and commentary. And fair use is fundamental to the internet as we know it, because it protects freedom of expression. But there are, of course, limits. Which is why, at first, Denims was worried she had stepped into actual copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I go back, I watch my original video, I watched my original, like, reaction, and then I felt a lot better. I was like, okay, wait, wait…I took a 2 hour video, I turned it into 4 hours. I had a bunch of links where I showed people articles. I showed people a bunch context for things. I commented a bunch, and I really tried to transform the video and transform the content to the best of my ability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Here’s the ironic twist. The doctrine of fair use that protects content creators like Denims’? Ethan himself set the precedent when it comes to internet content by winning a different lawsuit nearly 10 years ago. In fact, for a long time, he was known as the “the fair use king.” It’s a big reason why Denims was so shocked.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Like, the guy who’s known as the “the fair use king” is going to sue me and other creators for reacting to his video. Huh?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims is not the only streamer Ethan went after, but the three creators he sued were also among dozens of others who made similar videos, all using the original content nuke. And as critics have pointed out, there’s a pattern among the creators that Ethan did choose to single out. So how did Ethan Klein, once the “the fair use king” and champion of free speech, become the kind of litigious antagonist that he once defeated?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, we’re diving into why this case is more than just a feud between influencers. It has ripple effects that would impact nearly every platform and every piece of content that you engage with online. There’s so much to unpack here. Censorship, power dynamics, and years of personal beef. It is so much bigger than just internet drama. Buckle up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s open our first tab. Why did Ethan Klein sue other streamers? Today we’re here to talk about a series of lawsuits that kind of rocked the content creator economy. At their very core, what are these three lawsuits about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So these three lawsuits are about copyright infringement and specifically whether it is a copyright infringment violation to stream and react to another creator’s content on your own platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Kat Tenbarge has also been on Close All Taps before. She’s an independent journalist who runs the newsletter Spitfire News, and she covers the intersection of influencers and politics. She also covered this case, and in doing so, unwillingly became part of the story herself. We’ll get into that part later in the episode, but let’s talk about everything leading up to these lawsuits first.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In this case, three Twitch streamers each played a YouTuber’s video on their live stream and reacted to it. And then he sued them for copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m really curious, like, who watches this content? What is the impact culturally online?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, so, so many people watch this type of content. I see it in so many different places, and I imagine that a lot of audience members don’t even register it as reaction content because it’s become so ubiquitous. But even like, the biggest news and politics creators, a lot what they do is reaction content. If you are watching somebody do like a stitch on TikTok or Instagram Reels, that’s a form of reaction content, or if you ever go on Twitch, that is reaction content for the most part, because even when someone is playing a video game, they’re still taking someone else’s intellectual property and sort of making it their own. Like, reaction content is basically one of the building blocks of most content today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, what was your first reaction, speaking of reaction content, but what was the first reaction when you saw the news of Ethan Klein’s recent lawsuits?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, my first reaction, I was pretty surprised because I think a lot of people online saw this as a very hypocritical move. Back in 2017, Ethan Klein was sued himself by another content creator for the exact same reason, copyright infringement, after he reacted to and parodied and mocked a different YouTuber’s material. And that lawsuit was a really defining point in Ethan Klein’s own career. So, you know, fast forward less than a decade later, he’s basically doing the exact same thing to these three women.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2016. This YouTuber, Matt Hoss, had this comedy series called The Bold Guy. In these sketches, Matt plays this pick-up artist who also does parkour. It has not aged well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Matt Hoss’ The Bold Guy Video]\u003cbr>Woman: Who are you calling an attention whore? \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: I’m asking, because you keep sticking your ass up in the air. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Woman: I have the right to exercise here if I want. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: Of course you do, and I have a right to approach and talk to you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In this video, the woman slaps Matt and then tells him to catch her. A parkour chase ensues. Ethan and his wife, Hila, saw this and posted their own video where they played clips and made fun of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Look, can you imagine the casting call for this? Looking for a cute, petite, parkour girl to star in my parkour sex video.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan and Hila’s video was 14 minutes long. It used three minutes of Matt’s original video. Well, Matt didn’t like that. So he filed a copyright notice with YouTube and YouTube took down Ethan and Hila’s video. Ethan and Hila challenged the takedown and argued fair use. So in 2017, Matt sued them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when this lawsuit was launched against them, they issued a plea to the YouTube community at large basically pointing out that if they lost, it would set a really bad precedent for everybody because it would mean that everybody could potentially be sued over the type of content that had already become so popular, so mainstream, and so ubiquitous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: After a year and a half of doing depositions, filing summaries, motions, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, we slammed this b*tch, dude! YES! We won the court case! YES!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when they won that case, it felt like they had established this precedent that wouldn’t just protect them, but would also protect all of these other creators.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, how did this pretty landmark decision that, like you said, set that precedent, open the door for the explosion of commentary content and reaction videos and media criticism video essays?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the the precedent that was set by Ethan and Hila winning this lawsuit was that it fell under the category of fair use as long as you were putting your own commentary spin on whatever you were reacting to. So for example, you can’t just stream someone else’s content on your channel and walk away and let it play for the entirety of the clip, but as long you’re engaging with it in some way, shape, or form, that is what the judge determined allowed it to fall under fair use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so there’s that legal precedent, but it seems like Ethan’s stance on this issue is like dramatically different. Can you briefly catch us up on how Ethan, his content, and his audience have changed since winning that 2017 lawsuit?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So since 2017, Ethan and Hila have really leaned into podcasting as like the main content that they make and the way they engage with their audience. And this drama stems from a podcast that Ethan had done previously with Hasan Piker called Leftovers. Leftovers ran for a few years and it was both of them talking about politics from this like leftist perspective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Leftovers #31]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: I mean, Trump took a fat f*cking L, dude. Yeah. And you’re seeing it already, we have a whole section in here of Republicans turning on Trump.\u003cbr>Hasan Piker: Here’s the issue. This is not a Donald Trump issue. This is a Republican party issue. Here’s why…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’ve talked about Hasan on this show a bunch. He’s the guy who turned political commentary streams into a viable genre on Twitch. Leftovers was this collaboration between the superstar of a burgeoning corner of Twitch and the YouTube “fair use king.” They joked around, made fun of Trump supporters, interviewed economists, and reacted to what was happening in politics at the time. And they genuinely did seem like friends, but ultimately, it didn’t last.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In late 2023, after Hamas attacked Israel, things really shifted between the two of them because Hasan Piker is really principled in his advocacy for Palestinians and his opposition to Israel, whereas Ethan Klein actually lived in Israel for a period of time, his wife Hila served in the IDF and is Israeli, and his perspective on the matter is very different. The two of them have kind of gone in between both sides of this, but the perception, at least widely online, is that they’re much more pro-Israeli than Hasan is. And so this drove a wedge between these content creators that has just grown and grown and grown and grown. There has been a ton of back and forth drama between the two of them, allegations slung in both directions. And it all kind of led up to Ethan creating something that he described as a content nuke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Content Nuke Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: The funny thing about me, I don’t like terrorism, and I don’t like terrorists. If they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, they’re all bad. And over time I started to learn that my co-host, he really likes terrorists.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>It was a nearly two hour long video criticizing and sort of condemning Hasan Piker. And when Ethan made this video, it obviously set off sort of a bomb in the discourse space where a bunch of different Twitch streamers, people who loved Hasan, people who hated Hasan people who were friends with Hasan, people who were sort of like associates or orbiters of Hasan they were all reacting to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In the later video where he announced the lawsuits, Ethan called the content nuke a trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: It’s not that I wanted these people to steal my video. It’s that I knew they would. The trap was set and it worked even better than I imagined it would. We captured pretty much every large streamer reacting to it in its entirety immediately after it was published.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan sued three women for using his content nuke in their reaction streams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Each of them played it while they were Twitch streaming and each of them offered their own commentary throughout the video. But the argument that Ethan made in his lawsuits is that they didn’t offer enough commentary for it to fall under fair use. And one of the things that he claimed they had done is that, they had basically established their intent to divert views from his channel so that he would reap fewer profits, which he viewed as a violation of his copyright.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Ethan himself said, many major streamers and YouTubers reacted to the content nuke. But he only went after three of them. All of them are women, and they also share a lot of political stances. Why did Ethan single them out? We’ll talk about that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OK. More on the content nuke, the lawsuits, and a tricky intimidation tactic called lawfare. That’s after this break. Stick around!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Who did Ethan Klein sue? And why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, Hasan is mentioned throughout these lawsuits pretty extensively,.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But he himself is not a defendant in any of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about the three women who are. Who are these creators? What is their content like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, so the three women who Ethan Klein sued are Kaceytron, Denims, and Frogan. And obviously those aren’t their real names. Those are the names that they go by on Twitch. But Kaceytron, I would say out of the three, had the least to do with the drama between Ethan and Hasan. She’s a longtime Twitch streamer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Kaceytron reaction video]\u003cbr>Kaceytron: I know a lot of people have been wanting to watch this without necessarily supporting Ethan Klein, so we’re gonna watch it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>She’s known for having an audience of sort of like the girls and the gays, and she does a lot of satirical, really kind of like, purposefully like tongue-in-cheek content that sometimes touches on politics. So she was one of the defendants who Ethan sued, and she also is known for having a pretty modest background. She grew up in what she and her family describes as generational poverty. And once this lawsuit was officially filed and she got served, she talked about how depressed she was and how much this was pushing her and sort of her family members to the very edge. So that was Kaceytron’s story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Denims and Frogan are two women of color who are also Twitch streamers. Denims has a bigger platform than Frogan. Frogan has worked very closely with Hasan Piker in the past, and both of them had sort of come under attack from Ethan and the H3 fandom previously because they had this sort of closer relationship with Hasan Piker. And I would say both of them also, as women of color, and Frogan in particular, as a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, also previously had received a ton of consistent, almost nonstop racist harassment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Frogan Twitch video]\u003cbr>Frogan: I do appreciate everyone’s support, and thank you for watching it with me. He doesn’t want people to know when it’s dropping because we’re all watching through other streamers. And I suggest you all watch it through other people as well.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>These lawsuits became a vector for that harassment, where it was just another reason for creators to make almost daily content about these women, smearing them, attacking them, even going so far as harassing them in some cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And it’s also worth noting that two of these women already had histories with Ethan Klein. Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So as sort of the Hamas-Israel war becomes this wedge issue driving Hasan Piker and Ethan Klein apart, you also saw Ethan really go on the attack against creators who were really supportive of Palestinians and Palestine. And one of the ways he did this is he would identify things that these creators had done as anti-Semitic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A few years ago, Frogan and Denims were part of a TwitchCon panel for Arab creators, and they jokingly created a ranking of people who can say habibi. Here’s Denims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And for some context, habibi just means my love. So like, obviously anyone can say it. It’s kind of like saying inshallah, like anyone can say that. And at the bottom of the tier list was a category called “loves sabra.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Based on the hummus brand Sabra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Which they were making fun of as like the worst hummus that you can buy at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>A hummus that most people dislike because it tastes not good. And we put a variety of creators on the bottom tier list, myself included in that category because it was just a fun tier list but we also had put Ethan Klein in that list.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Ethan had sort of characterized this as anti-Semitic because it’s an Israeli hummus brand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Me and the other four creators, got banned from Twitch for 30 days and lost ad rev. So this has been like a long standing chain of events that’s gone on for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But Ethan has also had beef with other creators who reacted to his content nuke. A couple of years ago, there was “Reactgate.” It was this huge internet wide debate over the way certain reaction creators used other people’s content without adding any real commentary or original substance. Amid the discourse, Ethan accused another Twitch streamer, xQc, of being a content thief. The feud culminated in a very heated live streamed argument between the two.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Debating xQc On Copyright-H3TV #86]\u003cbr>xQc: People would rather watch me full-screen cam, do the f*cking worm than watch your prime content. \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Bro, do it for a week. Do a week of no reaction content and see how many f*cking views you get.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>xQc was one of the many creators who reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. But despite their previous feud over this exact issue, Ethan did not sue xQc. In the video announcing the lawsuits, Ethan said,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: These people were not targeted based on their gender, their identity, their political beliefs.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it is worth noting that they all orbit Hasan Piker. They’re smaller creators with similar views who make similar content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So they do share a lot of the same audience. There’s a lot crossover there. And even on a personal level, a lot these creators are friends with each other. They have sort of like collaborations or partnerships in the past. And so they almost sort of orbit around the ecosystem that Hasan has created.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It almost seems like these lawsuits were part of a kind of proxy war with Hasan Piker.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, that is definitely how a lot of people online saw the situation. You saw a lot the same critics of Hasan pivot to support and endorse these lawsuits. And you also saw people in the H3 fandom sort of use this as part of their digital online war on Hasan and his associates, like these women who were being sued were almost treated as stand-ins for Hasan Piker himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Besides the fact that they all kind of orbit Hasan Piker, are there any theories as to why Ethan would choose to target these specific creators?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I think that like among critics of Ethan Klein, a lot of the consensus around these lawsuits is that these were more vulnerable targets. Being women in the creator space and especially women of color, your earning potential and the size of your audience tends to be smaller. In Kaseytron’s case, like we previously discussed, she expressed that she could not afford a lawsuit, that hiring a legal defense would be a significant cost that she wouldn’t be able to shoulder. Each of these women launched a GoFundMe shortly after they were sued. And each of them talked about sort of the undue financial stress that this put upon them, as compared to some of these bigger content creators like Hasan Piker, who would more easily be able to afford a legal defense because he’s making exponentially more money on the platform than these women were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So all of this is going down online. And last summer, you wrote a piece titled, “Ethan Klein’s War on Women.” What was that essay about, and how was it received?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So I wrote this piece as sort of an explainer because there wasn’t a ton of mainstream media coverage of these cases. There’s been mainstream coverage of Ethan Klein in the past, but despite how big these YouTubers are and how consequential their platforms can be, the mainstream media still doesn’t really understand them or I think appreciate how consequential they are. So I wrote this for my independent newsletter And the basic thrust of my piece is that these three women were each super, super vulnerable in their own way and that because of all of the harassment they were already receiving on a regular basis this was a moment where they were about to receive a lot more and how unfair i felt like that was and it fit in really well with the coverage that I already do because a lot of the topics that I cover are how these types of lawsuits can be used to smear and silence women. For example, I’ve covered Depp v. Heard and Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni and I’ve talked a lot about how these lawsuits and lawfare in general can be used as sort of targeted harassment against women in a really harmful and oftentimes devastating way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s very interesting the way that Ethan Klein himself reacted to the piece. What did he say?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>He basically accused me of calling him misogynistic, which I never used that word in the piece, although I guess you could draw from the title that that was the implication. But specifically what he said was, ‘I’m facing all of these allegations of me being a misogymist, so to level the playing field, I’m going to sue this other creator named SeanDaBlack.’ And SeanDaBlack is yet another Twitch streamer who also reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. And Ethan was basically saying, well, if you’re accusing me of suing a bunch of women, I’ll sue this guy as well, under the condition that he would not sue Sean if I apologized to him, which was super, super bizarre. And it definitely, you know, invoked a big response from his audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sean also seen perplexed. He responded to the threat in his own stream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack-Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: But like, ya’ll ain’t need to bring me into this. Right? I should only be mentioned in the, in the most handsome streamer conversation. That’s it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And I didn’t apologize. I, at the time, texted, like, a fellow journalist who was also involved in this and said like, you know, ‘you can post this on Twitter where I’m no longer active. And you can say that if this is truly gonna stop Ethan from suing this other creator, then I would apologize.’ But Ethan said that that didn’t count and SeanDaBlack did a stream where he was like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack -Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: Ethan’s trying to, uh, swing his dick around being like, uh-huh, I have so much money to spend. I have so much money to spend, right? He wants the back and forth. He wants me to be talking about this right now. And in his mind, he wants me to be scared. He wants me to be afraid.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So then I wrote a follow-up piece being like, Ethan Klein doesn’t deserve my apology. And fortunately, he did not sue SeanDaBlack.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Sean, Kat saw Ethan’s threat of a lawsuit for what it really was. It’s a tactic called lawfare and it’s become increasingly common, especially in the influencer space. Let’s open another tab: the lawfare content economy. It’s interesting too, because there was nothing in your piece, your original piece, that he could sue you for.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, you’re a journalist, you are protected under free speech laws. But choosing to threaten a completely different, unrelated creator, SeanDaBlack, who has a significantly smaller following than him and presumably much fewer legal resources, also didn’t sit right with a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A lot of online compared this case to a tactic called lawfare. Can you explain what that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So, lawfare refers to a phenomenon where somebody launches a lawsuit, not because the case has an actual legal merit, but because they know it will cause so much harm to the defendant through legal costs and the pressure of being subjected to the legal system. It’s a term that has particularly grown popular due to Donald Trump’s habitual use of lawfare and other conservatives. We’ve seen this with Trump, we’ve seen this with Elon Musk. And we’re increasingly seeing it in the landscape of the internet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ethan Klein is not the first creator to sue his critics and I know that he will not be the last. We’re seeing it more and more and people online are even referring to it as lolfare in this context, like LOL fare, because not only are they seeing it as a way to harass a target through the legal system, but they’re also seeing it as a way for the plaintiff, the person bringing the lawsuit to be able to make content out of it. And oftentimes this content is very tongue-in-cheek because in Ethan Klein’s case, he says that these lawsuits have merit. He has held to that. He continues to say that these lawsuits have merit and that they are not law fair but at the exact same time, he’s also made them such a prominent topic on his podcast and on his live show that he’s reaping a lot of benefit from it, too. And a lot people in his audience and a lot the detractors of these women are really, really enjoying it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And lawfare also fuels an entire genre of YouTube content called LawTube. It started with the defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Lawyers built huge followings online by discussing widely publicized cases. Other content creators, who primarily covered pop culture and influencer drama, jumped in too. They weren’t legal experts, but they also built audiences and made money by covering high-profile cases. Now, whatever lawfare is used against other creators, it feeds this thriving ecosystem of reaction content, which can direct more harassment against victims of lawfare.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How does lawfare destabilize people who, you know, might be comfortable enough, but aren’t wealthy by any means?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong> One of the things that I think a lot of people don’t realize is just how expensive defending yourself legally is. Even if you ultimately win a case, it can still cost people tens of thousands of dollars just to file a motion to dismiss. So most lawyers charge, you know, hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour. So even if you don’t get to trial, you can still be looking at these just like staggering fees that could easily bankrupt the average person. Another aspect I think is just the emotional and mental toll it takes on people. Lawsuits are inherently really, really stressful. It involves so many filings, so much back and forth. And with every filing and every decision that a judge makes, it’s like resetting the clock on whether it’s gonna go your way or whether it won’t. So there are a lot of aspects that make lawfare not only one of the most, I would say, prominent modern harassment strategies but also something that can individually devastate people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>For Denims, this legal battle consumed most of the last year. It really affected her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>It is very stressful because I know that he has more money than me. He knows that he has more money than me. Everyone involved knows that he has significantly more money than me, so it’s like a very stressful process because so much of the legal system is based on how much you can pay for the best lawyers. So I think for a great period of time, I was incredibly stressed about financials or at least decently stressed about financials. But I think I’m just very lucky that I had a lot of people who supported me and I had lot of people who wanted to see me fight and who donated to my GoFundMe. And yeah, that was, I think the thing that was worse than the financial stuff was just like the time and the headache of… like, we could be spending this time productively. We could making content that’s fun, and instead we’re just sitting here talking to lawyers and prepping lawyer content and going to hearings or whatever. Like, it’s just…it was such a time sink. It still is sort of a time-sink.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And something you did say was that you weren’t going to settle. You weren’t gonna back down. What was motivating you through that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I don’t like bullies. I think bullies suck. And it’s sad because once upon a time, Ethan was the person that went after the bullies, I think, and he like defended against the bullys. And then he like, he became that which he sought to destroy. And I’m sorry, like on principle, it seems wrong to just fold over or like roll ove and die on that, like… It’s, okay, so I immediately fold, everyone, all of us settle and we just try to get out of this case as quickly as possible. What social precedent does that set? Not even like a legal precedent, what social precedent does it set that the second someone with more money than you tries to fight, everyone just rolls over and says, okay, well, I’m not gonna fight this. Well, I am not gonna to fight this. Like, it opens the door for him or anyone else to just be able to pursue, like, bullsh*t lawsuits against lots of other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so to recap, Ethan Klein, once hailed as “the fair use king,” took these three women creators to court for reacting to his content. Who won? And how will all of this impact the internet going forward? Let’s go back to Kat and open one more tab: the future of fair use and reaction content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s talk about the outcome of these lawsuits. What happened in each case?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, Kaseytron, her case ended up being withdrawn. We can assume that there was a settlement in play. And the other thing about settlements is that typically they’re negotiated confidentially. So there’s no way to know what actually transpired in those closed-door negotiations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Following the end of that lawsuit, Kasey actually posted a public apology, which Ethan and Hila reacted to on the H3 Podcast stream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast -Show #215]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: We’ll watch it all together, and move on all together. \u003cbr>Hila Klein: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr>Kaseytron: I want to begin by stating I take responsibility for infringing the content nuke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Kaseytron, you know, hers ended earliest and she was able to move on, go back to her normal content and her normal streaming. Frogan is still fighting this lawsuit and she recently announced via a statement that she had hired Denims’ lawyers after her lawyers tried and failed to negotiate with Ethan over more than a year’s time. Her lawsuit temporarily entered like a default stage. But she has said in her statement that she will be moving forward. And then Denims actually won her lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The final ruling came out in July, and Denims was in the perfect place to celebrate her win.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not gonna lie, I happened to be in Vegas at the time and I hadn’t won any money in Vegas. I didn’t spend much, but I hadn’t t won anything. So it felt like I won. It felt like I won. There was something amazing about being in the middle of a casino and I get the news that I just won my case. And I’m like, oh my God, like I hit the jackpot, dude. I was so over the moon. I was so happy because I knew it was like a matter of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so let’s talk about her case. There are four factors that courts use to determine fair use. What is the purpose and character of using the copyrighted work? What is a nature of the copyrighted work? How much of it was used? Did the copyright holder lose money because their work was used?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And the only one that I didn’t win was simply the, I think it’s the second one that says that a work deserves copyright protections. So the judge said, hey, you know what? The content nuke has enough original things in it that it is considered not just a factual piece, but also a creative piece that deserves copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The first factor is the most important in these cases, ‘the purpose and character of using copyrighted work.’ And this is the biggest question in the debate over reaction content. Was this use transformative? In other words, did it add something new? In Denims’ case, the judge found that her reaction stream met three out of four fair use standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And all of the other factors, the judge ruled in my favor on those. So he said, yeah, the purpose and the character of the work is very different. And he proceeded to cite Ethan Klein’s original filing and Ethan Klein’s original statement that said, the purpose of her character is the complete opposite of my character. He also said that the other factors were in my favor that it’s hard to see a market replacement or a market substitution when the work is so different, when there’s so much reaction. But most importantly, he said that the work was transformative and that I did add more than enough substantial commentary, pauses, critiques for it to be considered fair use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And here’s where it gets really interesting. Remember back in 2017, when a judge ruled that Ethan and Hila’s reaction video was, in fact, fair use? That case, this legal precedence that the client set, came up a lot in the ruling for Denims’ case. Here’s Kat again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I have the excerpt of the judge’s decision right in front of me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Please read dramatically. \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So there is one line in particular that says, ‘the undisputed purpose of defendant’s live stream is to contest, criticize, and mock plaintiff’s message, which the courts have found weighs in favor of fair use due to its transformative nature see Hoss versus Klein.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And he kept citing t to say, no, you can use a lot of a work and it’s still fair use. No, you should be able to criticize the people. That’s the heart of fair use, to be able to criticize people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> That original case is actually cited a dozen times in the official judgment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So as soon as this ruling and decision came out, critics of Ethan Klein were just like, ‘this is incredible. This is one of the most incredible turns that this could have taken.’ But it’s also not something people were super surprised by because from the very onset of these lawsuits, people pointed out how, again, hypocritical they found it that Ethan was suing someone over the very same cause of action that he had been sued for less than a decade prior. So them citing his own lawsuit win in his current lawsuit loss really was the cherry on top for people who had been arguing that these lawsuits were meritless the entire time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to filing the lawsuits against these three women, Ethan has also filed more lawsuits against more creators, and as the lawsuits pile up, more and more creators throughout the entire ecosystem have begun to speak out against Ethan Klein. People started to leave Ethan Klein’s fan base. There is like another subreddit that is former fans of Ethan Klein who have spoken out against these lawsuits. There’s been a ton of viral tweets, viral TikToks basically painting him as just this new villain of the YouTube landscape. And not everybody sees it that way, but enough people do that I think it really has changed his reputation for the worse. I think if you’re not an H3 fan and if you barely know who Ethan Klein is, you’re probably gonna know him because of all of these posts that have to do with him being someone who sues his critics and tries to sue them into silence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Some people might argue that everything that went down is just mindless internet drama that, I mean, like TikTok commentators like to constantly claim, it’s not that deep. But why does this matter for everyone? How does this ripple into every part of the internet?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say it really is that deep for a couple of reasons. One, social media and content creation is at the forefront of how we disseminate news and information today. Almost everyone is on social media, and increasingly, a majority of people get their news and information from content creators online. So having the freedom to speak your mind and analyze and, yes, react to other people’s content is really, really important in today’s modern world. And so the threat of lawsuits like this is something that I think could have a really negative effect on democracy, on free speech, and so on and so forth. So I think it really is that deep. And I think if people want to protect our access to information and our ability to have a voice and not be chilled into silence, then they should care about this because it could have major consequences beyond just this streaming community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims, being an Arab-American woman who talks about progressive politics on the internet, has a lot of haters. There are so many people, many of whom are men, who’ve grown their own following by clipping her content and bashing her on their channels. The scrutiny she already faced intensified over the last year because of this very public legal battle. But as annoying as these hate watchers are, Denims pointed out that her victory is also a win for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>The people who enjoy criticizing me, a ruling that was bad for me, would have been bad for them. I think until the filing became official, I think it was internet drama. And I think after the filing, it’s like, dog, this is like, this affects everything on the internet, everything. It impacts what kind of content is allowed on Twitter. It impacts what kind of contact is allowed on Reddit. It impacts the content on YouTube. Like, it impacts so much. And even if you don’t personally care for my content or my commentary or my political views, you should want your favorite content creator to be able to critique the people that they dislike or disagree with. It is important to have people be able speak on the issues they want to speak on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan took to Instagram stories after the ruling came out. He wrote, I’m extremely confident that this will be overturned by the appellate courts and we will be proceeding with the appeal immediately. Close All Tabs reached out to his team for comment, but we have not received a response. Denims, meanwhile, posted her own update.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: Before we start, let me bring in our honored guest. You might have previously known him as “the fair use king. “\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She reaches off camera and pulls a tripod into the frame. On it is a mannequin head with a printed photo of Ethan Klein taped over it. It’s wearing a gold costume crown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: And let me just…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She plucks off the crown and places it on her own head.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: There we go. Much better.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, I think everybody called him “the fair use king” for such a long time. And I think the second you start suing other creators for doing the same thing that you got really big and popular for, I think you should lose the rights to that crown, the social rights to that crown. And I think you should give it to the person who’s actually trying to defend fair use. Because it’s not just fair use when it’s the people that you like. It’s not freedom of speech when it’s people saying things you like. It’s—it should also apply when people aren’t saying things that you like, when people are saying things that you dislike. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and if it’s too heavy for you, I will gladly take it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and edited by Chris Hambrick. Additional production support from Ana de Almeida Amaral. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, our intern Lauren Yoon, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. This episode features clips and archive tape from H3H3 Productions, the H3 Podcast, Leftovers, Kaseytron, Frogan, SeanDaBlack, and Denims. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I will be continuing to fight. Ethan said he will be taking this to appeals. So I guess maybe in 18 months or whatever, when I win that, then I can give more updates then.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When Twitch streamer Denims made a reaction video about Ethan Klein’s nearly two-hour takedown video of Hasan Piker, she wasn’t expecting to be sued for copyright infringement. She employed a commonly-used method of streaming the original video and interjecting with reactions, commentary and analysis. But Klein, who was once seen as a champion of fair use after he won a similar lawsuit in 2017, sued Denims and other content creators anyway. Morgan talks to Denims and journalist Kat Tenbarge about what made these cases different and how reaction content across the internet could change based on how the courts ultimately rule.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"A Political Reckoning for Twitch? | KQED — Close All Tabs, KQED",
"Ethan Klein’s War on Women — Kat Tenbarge, Spitfire News",
"Ethan Klein Doesn’t Deserve My Apology — Kat Tenbarge, Spitfire News",
"A YouTuber kicks up a stink over a flatulent “reaction” video — staff, The Economist",
"What’s Up With Copyright Lately?: Summer Breeze Edition — Aaron Moss, Copyright Lately",
"Should YouTube introduce revenue-sharing for reaction content? — James Hale, Tubefilter",
"‘Reactgate’: Twitch streamer xQc and ‘H3 Podcast’ host Ethan Klein debate whether ‘reaction videos’ are ‘stolen content’ — Katie Mather, Yahoo News",
"How h3h3’s Ethan Klein Might Change YouTube Forever — Melissa Chan, Time Magazine"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-lawsuits-kaceytron-frogan-denims\">Ethan Klein’s War on Women\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-seandablack-lawsuits-kaceytron-denims-frogan-taylor-lorenz\">Ethan Klein Doesn’t Deserve My Apology\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Tabbies. We need your help. If you like our deep dives and you want to hear more, then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Tabbies. We need your help. If you like our deep dives and you want to hear more, then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video] \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hi there. It’s me, your old friend, Ethan Klein. It’s been a while since we’ve last spoken. In that time I’ve had three kids, all boys, I’ve lost a hundred pounds, and I’ve pissed off 75% of the in-\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video] \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hi there. It’s me, your old friend, Ethan Klein. It’s been a while since we’ve last spoken. In that time I’ve had three kids, all boys, I’ve lost a hundred pounds, and I’ve pissed off 75% of the in-\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And I became insane.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That second voice you just heard is Alexandra Saber, a Twitch streamer better known as…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna keep calling her Denims for this episode. She’s been on the show before, when we talked about the growing corner of political commentary on Twitch. The situation we’re diving into today is related to that. So last year, Ethan Klein, the YouTuber behind the channel H3H3 Productions and host of the H3 Podcast, dropped a content nuke. This is a long-form video format that Ethan himself popularized. It’s basically an extensive takedown criticizing another creator for their behavior, comments, and past posts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna keep calling her Denims for this episode. She’s been on the show before, when we talked about the growing corner of political commentary on Twitch. The situation we’re diving into today is related to that. So last year, Ethan Klein, the YouTuber behind the channel H3H3 Productions and host of the H3 Podcast, dropped a content nuke. This is a long-form video format that Ethan himself popularized. It’s basically an extensive takedown criticizing another creator for their behavior, comments, and past posts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The content nuke is like a deep dive, building the case to cancel someone else. Ethan had been teasing this video for months, so his fan base was pretty hyped. And this one was about someone he had been publicly feuding with for years: streamer, political commentator, and his former friend, Hasan Piker. Ethan’s nearly 2-hour-long video starts with J. Robert Oppenheimer quoting Hindu scripture, which he famously referenced after he watched the detonation of the nuclear bomb he designed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The content nuke is like a deep dive, building the case to cancel someone else. Ethan had been teasing this video for months, so his fan base was pretty hyped. And this one was about someone he had been publicly feuding with for years: streamer, political commentator, and his former friend, Hasan Piker. Ethan’s nearly 2-hour-long video starts with J. Robert Oppenheimer quoting Hindu scripture, which he famously referenced after he watched the detonation of the nuclear bomb he designed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[ Audio of J. Robert Oppenheimer]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[ Audio of J. Robert Oppenheimer]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then the video launches into a super cut of clips from Hasan’s stream, layered with footage of a nuclear bomb after impact, mushroom cloud and all. Denims wasn’t impressed, so she streamed her reaction, which did involve playing the video on her channel.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then the video launches into a super cut of clips from Hasan’s stream, layered with footage of a nuclear bomb after impact, mushroom cloud and all. Denims wasn’t impressed, so she streamed her reaction, which did involve playing the video on her channel.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of wild claims that were made in that video that were just factually untrue. And so I would pause, I would make jokes or I’d pause and I would say, well, this isn’t true. Like, here’s this and this and this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of wild claims that were made in that video that were just factually untrue. And so I would pause, I would make jokes or I’d pause and I would say, well, this isn’t true. Like, here’s this and this and this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims’ reaction Twitch stream]\u003cbr>Speaker: That lines up with leftist values.\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hasan’s third claim is—\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[clicking sound]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: Okay, first of all, they he’s not even providing sources for half of this stuff. I… He’s provided like bits and segments, if any. Okay?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims’ reaction Twitch stream]\u003cbr>Speaker: That lines up with leftist values.\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hasan’s third claim is—\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[clicking sound]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: Okay, first of all, they he’s not even providing sources for half of this stuff. I… He’s provided like bits and segments, if any. Okay?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I think people just like myself, when I’m curious about a video, but I know that it’s going to be filled with falsehoods, I want to watch an expert talk about it and break down what’s wrong with that video, sort of like watching in a weird way, I guess, like Mythbusters. And I think that’s why a lot of people tuned into my stream to watch that the two hour video turned into a four hour livestream, cause I wanted to see someone say, no, this isn’t true. Here’s this article that shows this isn’t true.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I think people just like myself, when I’m curious about a video, but I know that it’s going to be filled with falsehoods, I want to watch an expert talk about it and break down what’s wrong with that video, sort of like watching in a weird way, I guess, like Mythbusters. And I think that’s why a lot of people tuned into my stream to watch that the two hour video turned into a four hour livestream, cause I wanted to see someone say, no, this isn’t true. Here’s this article that shows this isn’t true.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, months later, she found herself at the center of one of the most talked about lawsuits in the content creator world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, months later, she found herself at the center of one of the most talked about lawsuits in the content creator world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I do remember that I found out the exact same way that everyone else found out. So he released this video on like June, was it, I think it was 19th.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I do remember that I found out the exact same way that everyone else found out. So he released this video on like June, was it, I think it was 19th.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: Hi there. My name is Ethan Klein, and my favorite hobby is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. Today, I invite you into my home to share my favorite past time with you. Join me in creating generational wealth for my attorney.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: Hi there. My name is Ethan Klein, and my favorite hobby is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. Today, I invite you into my home to share my favorite past time with you. Join me in creating generational wealth for my attorney.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>This is a video, another video that he had been teasing for a while and I was kind of curious what it was gonna be about. I was like, is it gonna be a sequel to the original? Is it gonna be a video on some other creators? And so I’m like watching this video, I’m, like, hmm, that’s me on the screen. That is an official court document with my name on it. And then I click and it’s like, it’s almost a little bit disbelief that it’s real.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>This is a video, another video that he had been teasing for a while and I was kind of curious what it was gonna be about. I was like, is it gonna be a sequel to the original? Is it gonna be a video on some other creators? And so I’m like watching this video, I’m, like, hmm, that’s me on the screen. That is an official court document with my name on it. And then I click and it’s like, it’s almost a little bit disbelief that it’s real.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Well, I’m happy to tell you guys now, I, Ethan Klein, have registered Hasan Piker content nuke with the United States Library of Congress. Some of you guys out there sweating?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Well, I’m happy to tell you guys now, I, Ethan Klein, have registered Hasan Piker content nuke with the United States Library of Congress. Some of you guys out there sweating?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims’ stream falls under this genre known as reaction content, videos and live streams in which creators react to and comment on content made by others. You’ll see this on Twitch and TikTok and YouTube and Reels. They’ll play a short clip from a movie or political speech or someone else’s video, and then give their take. Reaction content relies on this legal doctrine called fair use. Fair use is what protects the unlicensed use of copyrighted material if it’s used in news reporting, criticism, teaching, research, and commentary. And fair use is fundamental to the internet as we know it, because it protects freedom of expression. But there are, of course, limits. Which is why, at first, Denims was worried she had stepped into actual copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims’ stream falls under this genre known as reaction content, videos and live streams in which creators react to and comment on content made by others. You’ll see this on Twitch and TikTok and YouTube and Reels. They’ll play a short clip from a movie or political speech or someone else’s video, and then give their take. Reaction content relies on this legal doctrine called fair use. Fair use is what protects the unlicensed use of copyrighted material if it’s used in news reporting, criticism, teaching, research, and commentary. And fair use is fundamental to the internet as we know it, because it protects freedom of expression. But there are, of course, limits. Which is why, at first, Denims was worried she had stepped into actual copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I go back, I watch my original video, I watched my original, like, reaction, and then I felt a lot better. I was like, okay, wait, wait…I took a 2 hour video, I turned it into 4 hours. I had a bunch of links where I showed people articles. I showed people a bunch context for things. I commented a bunch, and I really tried to transform the video and transform the content to the best of my ability.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I go back, I watch my original video, I watched my original, like, reaction, and then I felt a lot better. I was like, okay, wait, wait…I took a 2 hour video, I turned it into 4 hours. I had a bunch of links where I showed people articles. I showed people a bunch context for things. I commented a bunch, and I really tried to transform the video and transform the content to the best of my ability.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Here’s the ironic twist. The doctrine of fair use that protects content creators like Denims’? Ethan himself set the precedent when it comes to internet content by winning a different lawsuit nearly 10 years ago. In fact, for a long time, he was known as the “the fair use king.” It’s a big reason why Denims was so shocked.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Here’s the ironic twist. The doctrine of fair use that protects content creators like Denims’? Ethan himself set the precedent when it comes to internet content by winning a different lawsuit nearly 10 years ago. In fact, for a long time, he was known as the “the fair use king.” It’s a big reason why Denims was so shocked.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Like, the guy who’s known as the “the fair use king” is going to sue me and other creators for reacting to his video. Huh?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Like, the guy who’s known as the “the fair use king” is going to sue me and other creators for reacting to his video. Huh?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims is not the only streamer Ethan went after, but the three creators he sued were also among dozens of others who made similar videos, all using the original content nuke. And as critics have pointed out, there’s a pattern among the creators that Ethan did choose to single out. So how did Ethan Klein, once the “the fair use king” and champion of free speech, become the kind of litigious antagonist that he once defeated?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims is not the only streamer Ethan went after, but the three creators he sued were also among dozens of others who made similar videos, all using the original content nuke. And as critics have pointed out, there’s a pattern among the creators that Ethan did choose to single out. So how did Ethan Klein, once the “the fair use king” and champion of free speech, become the kind of litigious antagonist that he once defeated?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, we’re diving into why this case is more than just a feud between influencers. It has ripple effects that would impact nearly every platform and every piece of content that you engage with online. There’s so much to unpack here. Censorship, power dynamics, and years of personal beef. It is so much bigger than just internet drama. Buckle up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today, we’re diving into why this case is more than just a feud between influencers. It has ripple effects that would impact nearly every platform and every piece of content that you engage with online. There’s so much to unpack here. Censorship, power dynamics, and years of personal beef. It is so much bigger than just internet drama. Buckle up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s open our first tab. Why did Ethan Klein sue other streamers? Today we’re here to talk about a series of lawsuits that kind of rocked the content creator economy. At their very core, what are these three lawsuits about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s open our first tab. Why did Ethan Klein sue other streamers? Today we’re here to talk about a series of lawsuits that kind of rocked the content creator economy. At their very core, what are these three lawsuits about?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So these three lawsuits are about copyright infringement and specifically whether it is a copyright infringment violation to stream and react to another creator’s content on your own platform.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So these three lawsuits are about copyright infringement and specifically whether it is a copyright infringment violation to stream and react to another creator’s content on your own platform.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Kat Tenbarge has also been on Close All Taps before. She’s an independent journalist who runs the newsletter Spitfire News, and she covers the intersection of influencers and politics. She also covered this case, and in doing so, unwillingly became part of the story herself. We’ll get into that part later in the episode, but let’s talk about everything leading up to these lawsuits first.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Kat Tenbarge has also been on Close All Taps before. She’s an independent journalist who runs the newsletter Spitfire News, and she covers the intersection of influencers and politics. She also covered this case, and in doing so, unwillingly became part of the story herself. We’ll get into that part later in the episode, but let’s talk about everything leading up to these lawsuits first.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In this case, three Twitch streamers each played a YouTuber’s video on their live stream and reacted to it. And then he sued them for copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In this case, three Twitch streamers each played a YouTuber’s video on their live stream and reacted to it. And then he sued them for copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m really curious, like, who watches this content? What is the impact culturally online?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m really curious, like, who watches this content? What is the impact culturally online?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, so, so many people watch this type of content. I see it in so many different places, and I imagine that a lot of audience members don’t even register it as reaction content because it’s become so ubiquitous. But even like, the biggest news and politics creators, a lot what they do is reaction content. If you are watching somebody do like a stitch on TikTok or Instagram Reels, that’s a form of reaction content, or if you ever go on Twitch, that is reaction content for the most part, because even when someone is playing a video game, they’re still taking someone else’s intellectual property and sort of making it their own. Like, reaction content is basically one of the building blocks of most content today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, so, so many people watch this type of content. I see it in so many different places, and I imagine that a lot of audience members don’t even register it as reaction content because it’s become so ubiquitous. But even like, the biggest news and politics creators, a lot what they do is reaction content. If you are watching somebody do like a stitch on TikTok or Instagram Reels, that’s a form of reaction content, or if you ever go on Twitch, that is reaction content for the most part, because even when someone is playing a video game, they’re still taking someone else’s intellectual property and sort of making it their own. Like, reaction content is basically one of the building blocks of most content today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, what was your first reaction, speaking of reaction content, but what was the first reaction when you saw the news of Ethan Klein’s recent lawsuits?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, what was your first reaction, speaking of reaction content, but what was the first reaction when you saw the news of Ethan Klein’s recent lawsuits?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, my first reaction, I was pretty surprised because I think a lot of people online saw this as a very hypocritical move. Back in 2017, Ethan Klein was sued himself by another content creator for the exact same reason, copyright infringement, after he reacted to and parodied and mocked a different YouTuber’s material. And that lawsuit was a really defining point in Ethan Klein’s own career. So, you know, fast forward less than a decade later, he’s basically doing the exact same thing to these three women.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, my first reaction, I was pretty surprised because I think a lot of people online saw this as a very hypocritical move. Back in 2017, Ethan Klein was sued himself by another content creator for the exact same reason, copyright infringement, after he reacted to and parodied and mocked a different YouTuber’s material. And that lawsuit was a really defining point in Ethan Klein’s own career. So, you know, fast forward less than a decade later, he’s basically doing the exact same thing to these three women.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2016. This YouTuber, Matt Hoss, had this comedy series called The Bold Guy. In these sketches, Matt plays this pick-up artist who also does parkour. It has not aged well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2016. This YouTuber, Matt Hoss, had this comedy series called The Bold Guy. In these sketches, Matt plays this pick-up artist who also does parkour. It has not aged well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Matt Hoss’ The Bold Guy Video]\u003cbr>Woman: Who are you calling an attention whore? \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: I’m asking, because you keep sticking your ass up in the air. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Woman: I have the right to exercise here if I want. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: Of course you do, and I have a right to approach and talk to you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Matt Hoss’ The Bold Guy Video]\u003cbr>Woman: Who are you calling an attention whore? \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: I’m asking, because you keep sticking your ass up in the air. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Woman: I have the right to exercise here if I want. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: Of course you do, and I have a right to approach and talk to you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In this video, the woman slaps Matt and then tells him to catch her. A parkour chase ensues. Ethan and his wife, Hila, saw this and posted their own video where they played clips and made fun of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In this video, the woman slaps Matt and then tells him to catch her. A parkour chase ensues. Ethan and his wife, Hila, saw this and posted their own video where they played clips and made fun of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Look, can you imagine the casting call for this? Looking for a cute, petite, parkour girl to star in my parkour sex video.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Look, can you imagine the casting call for this? Looking for a cute, petite, parkour girl to star in my parkour sex video.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan and Hila’s video was 14 minutes long. It used three minutes of Matt’s original video. Well, Matt didn’t like that. So he filed a copyright notice with YouTube and YouTube took down Ethan and Hila’s video. Ethan and Hila challenged the takedown and argued fair use. So in 2017, Matt sued them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan and Hila’s video was 14 minutes long. It used three minutes of Matt’s original video. Well, Matt didn’t like that. So he filed a copyright notice with YouTube and YouTube took down Ethan and Hila’s video. Ethan and Hila challenged the takedown and argued fair use. So in 2017, Matt sued them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when this lawsuit was launched against them, they issued a plea to the YouTube community at large basically pointing out that if they lost, it would set a really bad precedent for everybody because it would mean that everybody could potentially be sued over the type of content that had already become so popular, so mainstream, and so ubiquitous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when this lawsuit was launched against them, they issued a plea to the YouTube community at large basically pointing out that if they lost, it would set a really bad precedent for everybody because it would mean that everybody could potentially be sued over the type of content that had already become so popular, so mainstream, and so ubiquitous.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: After a year and a half of doing depositions, filing summaries, motions, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, we slammed this b*tch, dude! YES! We won the court case! YES!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: After a year and a half of doing depositions, filing summaries, motions, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, we slammed this b*tch, dude! YES! We won the court case! YES!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when they won that case, it felt like they had established this precedent that wouldn’t just protect them, but would also protect all of these other creators.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when they won that case, it felt like they had established this precedent that wouldn’t just protect them, but would also protect all of these other creators.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, how did this pretty landmark decision that, like you said, set that precedent, open the door for the explosion of commentary content and reaction videos and media criticism video essays?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, how did this pretty landmark decision that, like you said, set that precedent, open the door for the explosion of commentary content and reaction videos and media criticism video essays?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the the precedent that was set by Ethan and Hila winning this lawsuit was that it fell under the category of fair use as long as you were putting your own commentary spin on whatever you were reacting to. So for example, you can’t just stream someone else’s content on your channel and walk away and let it play for the entirety of the clip, but as long you’re engaging with it in some way, shape, or form, that is what the judge determined allowed it to fall under fair use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the the precedent that was set by Ethan and Hila winning this lawsuit was that it fell under the category of fair use as long as you were putting your own commentary spin on whatever you were reacting to. So for example, you can’t just stream someone else’s content on your channel and walk away and let it play for the entirety of the clip, but as long you’re engaging with it in some way, shape, or form, that is what the judge determined allowed it to fall under fair use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so there’s that legal precedent, but it seems like Ethan’s stance on this issue is like dramatically different. Can you briefly catch us up on how Ethan, his content, and his audience have changed since winning that 2017 lawsuit?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so there’s that legal precedent, but it seems like Ethan’s stance on this issue is like dramatically different. Can you briefly catch us up on how Ethan, his content, and his audience have changed since winning that 2017 lawsuit?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So since 2017, Ethan and Hila have really leaned into podcasting as like the main content that they make and the way they engage with their audience. And this drama stems from a podcast that Ethan had done previously with Hasan Piker called Leftovers. Leftovers ran for a few years and it was both of them talking about politics from this like leftist perspective.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So since 2017, Ethan and Hila have really leaned into podcasting as like the main content that they make and the way they engage with their audience. And this drama stems from a podcast that Ethan had done previously with Hasan Piker called Leftovers. Leftovers ran for a few years and it was both of them talking about politics from this like leftist perspective.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Leftovers #31]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: I mean, Trump took a fat f*cking L, dude. Yeah. And you’re seeing it already, we have a whole section in here of Republicans turning on Trump.\u003cbr>Hasan Piker: Here’s the issue. This is not a Donald Trump issue. This is a Republican party issue. Here’s why…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Leftovers #31]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: I mean, Trump took a fat f*cking L, dude. Yeah. And you’re seeing it already, we have a whole section in here of Republicans turning on Trump.\u003cbr>Hasan Piker: Here’s the issue. This is not a Donald Trump issue. This is a Republican party issue. Here’s why…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’ve talked about Hasan on this show a bunch. He’s the guy who turned political commentary streams into a viable genre on Twitch. Leftovers was this collaboration between the superstar of a burgeoning corner of Twitch and the YouTube “fair use king.” They joked around, made fun of Trump supporters, interviewed economists, and reacted to what was happening in politics at the time. And they genuinely did seem like friends, but ultimately, it didn’t last.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’ve talked about Hasan on this show a bunch. He’s the guy who turned political commentary streams into a viable genre on Twitch. Leftovers was this collaboration between the superstar of a burgeoning corner of Twitch and the YouTube “fair use king.” They joked around, made fun of Trump supporters, interviewed economists, and reacted to what was happening in politics at the time. And they genuinely did seem like friends, but ultimately, it didn’t last.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In late 2023, after Hamas attacked Israel, things really shifted between the two of them because Hasan Piker is really principled in his advocacy for Palestinians and his opposition to Israel, whereas Ethan Klein actually lived in Israel for a period of time, his wife Hila served in the IDF and is Israeli, and his perspective on the matter is very different. The two of them have kind of gone in between both sides of this, but the perception, at least widely online, is that they’re much more pro-Israeli than Hasan is. And so this drove a wedge between these content creators that has just grown and grown and grown and grown. There has been a ton of back and forth drama between the two of them, allegations slung in both directions. And it all kind of led up to Ethan creating something that he described as a content nuke.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In late 2023, after Hamas attacked Israel, things really shifted between the two of them because Hasan Piker is really principled in his advocacy for Palestinians and his opposition to Israel, whereas Ethan Klein actually lived in Israel for a period of time, his wife Hila served in the IDF and is Israeli, and his perspective on the matter is very different. The two of them have kind of gone in between both sides of this, but the perception, at least widely online, is that they’re much more pro-Israeli than Hasan is. And so this drove a wedge between these content creators that has just grown and grown and grown and grown. There has been a ton of back and forth drama between the two of them, allegations slung in both directions. And it all kind of led up to Ethan creating something that he described as a content nuke.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Content Nuke Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: The funny thing about me, I don’t like terrorism, and I don’t like terrorists. If they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, they’re all bad. And over time I started to learn that my co-host, he really likes terrorists.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Content Nuke Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: The funny thing about me, I don’t like terrorism, and I don’t like terrorists. If they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, they’re all bad. And over time I started to learn that my co-host, he really likes terrorists.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>It was a nearly two hour long video criticizing and sort of condemning Hasan Piker. And when Ethan made this video, it obviously set off sort of a bomb in the discourse space where a bunch of different Twitch streamers, people who loved Hasan, people who hated Hasan people who were friends with Hasan, people who were sort of like associates or orbiters of Hasan they were all reacting to it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>It was a nearly two hour long video criticizing and sort of condemning Hasan Piker. And when Ethan made this video, it obviously set off sort of a bomb in the discourse space where a bunch of different Twitch streamers, people who loved Hasan, people who hated Hasan people who were friends with Hasan, people who were sort of like associates or orbiters of Hasan they were all reacting to it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In the later video where he announced the lawsuits, Ethan called the content nuke a trap.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In the later video where he announced the lawsuits, Ethan called the content nuke a trap.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: It’s not that I wanted these people to steal my video. It’s that I knew they would. The trap was set and it worked even better than I imagined it would. We captured pretty much every large streamer reacting to it in its entirety immediately after it was published.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: It’s not that I wanted these people to steal my video. It’s that I knew they would. The trap was set and it worked even better than I imagined it would. We captured pretty much every large streamer reacting to it in its entirety immediately after it was published.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan sued three women for using his content nuke in their reaction streams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan sued three women for using his content nuke in their reaction streams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Each of them played it while they were Twitch streaming and each of them offered their own commentary throughout the video. But the argument that Ethan made in his lawsuits is that they didn’t offer enough commentary for it to fall under fair use. And one of the things that he claimed they had done is that, they had basically established their intent to divert views from his channel so that he would reap fewer profits, which he viewed as a violation of his copyright.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Each of them played it while they were Twitch streaming and each of them offered their own commentary throughout the video. But the argument that Ethan made in his lawsuits is that they didn’t offer enough commentary for it to fall under fair use. And one of the things that he claimed they had done is that, they had basically established their intent to divert views from his channel so that he would reap fewer profits, which he viewed as a violation of his copyright.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Ethan himself said, many major streamers and YouTubers reacted to the content nuke. But he only went after three of them. All of them are women, and they also share a lot of political stances. Why did Ethan single them out? We’ll talk about that after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Ethan himself said, many major streamers and YouTubers reacted to the content nuke. But he only went after three of them. All of them are women, and they also share a lot of political stances. Why did Ethan single them out? We’ll talk about that after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OK. More on the content nuke, the lawsuits, and a tricky intimidation tactic called lawfare. That’s after this break. Stick around!\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>OK. More on the content nuke, the lawsuits, and a tricky intimidation tactic called lawfare. That’s after this break. Stick around!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Who did Ethan Klein sue? And why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Who did Ethan Klein sue? And why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, Hasan is mentioned throughout these lawsuits pretty extensively,.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, Hasan is mentioned throughout these lawsuits pretty extensively,.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But he himself is not a defendant in any of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But he himself is not a defendant in any of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about the three women who are. Who are these creators? What is their content like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about the three women who are. Who are these creators? What is their content like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, so the three women who Ethan Klein sued are Kaceytron, Denims, and Frogan. And obviously those aren’t their real names. Those are the names that they go by on Twitch. But Kaceytron, I would say out of the three, had the least to do with the drama between Ethan and Hasan. She’s a longtime Twitch streamer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, so the three women who Ethan Klein sued are Kaceytron, Denims, and Frogan. And obviously those aren’t their real names. Those are the names that they go by on Twitch. But Kaceytron, I would say out of the three, had the least to do with the drama between Ethan and Hasan. She’s a longtime Twitch streamer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Kaceytron reaction video]\u003cbr>Kaceytron: I know a lot of people have been wanting to watch this without necessarily supporting Ethan Klein, so we’re gonna watch it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Kaceytron reaction video]\u003cbr>Kaceytron: I know a lot of people have been wanting to watch this without necessarily supporting Ethan Klein, so we’re gonna watch it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>She’s known for having an audience of sort of like the girls and the gays, and she does a lot of satirical, really kind of like, purposefully like tongue-in-cheek content that sometimes touches on politics. So she was one of the defendants who Ethan sued, and she also is known for having a pretty modest background. She grew up in what she and her family describes as generational poverty. And once this lawsuit was officially filed and she got served, she talked about how depressed she was and how much this was pushing her and sort of her family members to the very edge. So that was Kaceytron’s story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>She’s known for having an audience of sort of like the girls and the gays, and she does a lot of satirical, really kind of like, purposefully like tongue-in-cheek content that sometimes touches on politics. So she was one of the defendants who Ethan sued, and she also is known for having a pretty modest background. She grew up in what she and her family describes as generational poverty. And once this lawsuit was officially filed and she got served, she talked about how depressed she was and how much this was pushing her and sort of her family members to the very edge. So that was Kaceytron’s story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Denims and Frogan are two women of color who are also Twitch streamers. Denims has a bigger platform than Frogan. Frogan has worked very closely with Hasan Piker in the past, and both of them had sort of come under attack from Ethan and the H3 fandom previously because they had this sort of closer relationship with Hasan Piker. And I would say both of them also, as women of color, and Frogan in particular, as a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, also previously had received a ton of consistent, almost nonstop racist harassment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Denims and Frogan are two women of color who are also Twitch streamers. Denims has a bigger platform than Frogan. Frogan has worked very closely with Hasan Piker in the past, and both of them had sort of come under attack from Ethan and the H3 fandom previously because they had this sort of closer relationship with Hasan Piker. And I would say both of them also, as women of color, and Frogan in particular, as a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, also previously had received a ton of consistent, almost nonstop racist harassment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Frogan Twitch video]\u003cbr>Frogan: I do appreciate everyone’s support, and thank you for watching it with me. He doesn’t want people to know when it’s dropping because we’re all watching through other streamers. And I suggest you all watch it through other people as well.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Frogan Twitch video]\u003cbr>Frogan: I do appreciate everyone’s support, and thank you for watching it with me. He doesn’t want people to know when it’s dropping because we’re all watching through other streamers. And I suggest you all watch it through other people as well.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>These lawsuits became a vector for that harassment, where it was just another reason for creators to make almost daily content about these women, smearing them, attacking them, even going so far as harassing them in some cases.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>These lawsuits became a vector for that harassment, where it was just another reason for creators to make almost daily content about these women, smearing them, attacking them, even going so far as harassing them in some cases.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And it’s also worth noting that two of these women already had histories with Ethan Klein. Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And it’s also worth noting that two of these women already had histories with Ethan Klein. Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So as sort of the Hamas-Israel war becomes this wedge issue driving Hasan Piker and Ethan Klein apart, you also saw Ethan really go on the attack against creators who were really supportive of Palestinians and Palestine. And one of the ways he did this is he would identify things that these creators had done as anti-Semitic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So as sort of the Hamas-Israel war becomes this wedge issue driving Hasan Piker and Ethan Klein apart, you also saw Ethan really go on the attack against creators who were really supportive of Palestinians and Palestine. And one of the ways he did this is he would identify things that these creators had done as anti-Semitic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A few years ago, Frogan and Denims were part of a TwitchCon panel for Arab creators, and they jokingly created a ranking of people who can say habibi. Here’s Denims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A few years ago, Frogan and Denims were part of a TwitchCon panel for Arab creators, and they jokingly created a ranking of people who can say habibi. Here’s Denims.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And for some context, habibi just means my love. So like, obviously anyone can say it. It’s kind of like saying inshallah, like anyone can say that. And at the bottom of the tier list was a category called “loves sabra.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And for some context, habibi just means my love. So like, obviously anyone can say it. It’s kind of like saying inshallah, like anyone can say that. And at the bottom of the tier list was a category called “loves sabra.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Based on the hummus brand Sabra.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Based on the hummus brand Sabra.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Which they were making fun of as like the worst hummus that you can buy at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Which they were making fun of as like the worst hummus that you can buy at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>A hummus that most people dislike because it tastes not good. And we put a variety of creators on the bottom tier list, myself included in that category because it was just a fun tier list but we also had put Ethan Klein in that list.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>A hummus that most people dislike because it tastes not good. And we put a variety of creators on the bottom tier list, myself included in that category because it was just a fun tier list but we also had put Ethan Klein in that list.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Ethan had sort of characterized this as anti-Semitic because it’s an Israeli hummus brand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Ethan had sort of characterized this as anti-Semitic because it’s an Israeli hummus brand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Me and the other four creators, got banned from Twitch for 30 days and lost ad rev. So this has been like a long standing chain of events that’s gone on for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Me and the other four creators, got banned from Twitch for 30 days and lost ad rev. So this has been like a long standing chain of events that’s gone on for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But Ethan has also had beef with other creators who reacted to his content nuke. A couple of years ago, there was “Reactgate.” It was this huge internet wide debate over the way certain reaction creators used other people’s content without adding any real commentary or original substance. Amid the discourse, Ethan accused another Twitch streamer, xQc, of being a content thief. The feud culminated in a very heated live streamed argument between the two.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But Ethan has also had beef with other creators who reacted to his content nuke. A couple of years ago, there was “Reactgate.” It was this huge internet wide debate over the way certain reaction creators used other people’s content without adding any real commentary or original substance. Amid the discourse, Ethan accused another Twitch streamer, xQc, of being a content thief. The feud culminated in a very heated live streamed argument between the two.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Debating xQc On Copyright-H3TV #86]\u003cbr>xQc: People would rather watch me full-screen cam, do the f*cking worm than watch your prime content. \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Bro, do it for a week. Do a week of no reaction content and see how many f*cking views you get.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Debating xQc On Copyright-H3TV #86]\u003cbr>xQc: People would rather watch me full-screen cam, do the f*cking worm than watch your prime content. \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Bro, do it for a week. Do a week of no reaction content and see how many f*cking views you get.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>xQc was one of the many creators who reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. But despite their previous feud over this exact issue, Ethan did not sue xQc. In the video announcing the lawsuits, Ethan said,\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>xQc was one of the many creators who reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. But despite their previous feud over this exact issue, Ethan did not sue xQc. In the video announcing the lawsuits, Ethan said,\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: These people were not targeted based on their gender, their identity, their political beliefs.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: These people were not targeted based on their gender, their identity, their political beliefs.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it is worth noting that they all orbit Hasan Piker. They’re smaller creators with similar views who make similar content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it is worth noting that they all orbit Hasan Piker. They’re smaller creators with similar views who make similar content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So they do share a lot of the same audience. There’s a lot crossover there. And even on a personal level, a lot these creators are friends with each other. They have sort of like collaborations or partnerships in the past. And so they almost sort of orbit around the ecosystem that Hasan has created.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So they do share a lot of the same audience. There’s a lot crossover there. And even on a personal level, a lot these creators are friends with each other. They have sort of like collaborations or partnerships in the past. And so they almost sort of orbit around the ecosystem that Hasan has created.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It almost seems like these lawsuits were part of a kind of proxy war with Hasan Piker.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It almost seems like these lawsuits were part of a kind of proxy war with Hasan Piker.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, that is definitely how a lot of people online saw the situation. You saw a lot the same critics of Hasan pivot to support and endorse these lawsuits. And you also saw people in the H3 fandom sort of use this as part of their digital online war on Hasan and his associates, like these women who were being sued were almost treated as stand-ins for Hasan Piker himself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, that is definitely how a lot of people online saw the situation. You saw a lot the same critics of Hasan pivot to support and endorse these lawsuits. And you also saw people in the H3 fandom sort of use this as part of their digital online war on Hasan and his associates, like these women who were being sued were almost treated as stand-ins for Hasan Piker himself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Besides the fact that they all kind of orbit Hasan Piker, are there any theories as to why Ethan would choose to target these specific creators?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Besides the fact that they all kind of orbit Hasan Piker, are there any theories as to why Ethan would choose to target these specific creators?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I think that like among critics of Ethan Klein, a lot of the consensus around these lawsuits is that these were more vulnerable targets. Being women in the creator space and especially women of color, your earning potential and the size of your audience tends to be smaller. In Kaseytron’s case, like we previously discussed, she expressed that she could not afford a lawsuit, that hiring a legal defense would be a significant cost that she wouldn’t be able to shoulder. Each of these women launched a GoFundMe shortly after they were sued. And each of them talked about sort of the undue financial stress that this put upon them, as compared to some of these bigger content creators like Hasan Piker, who would more easily be able to afford a legal defense because he’s making exponentially more money on the platform than these women were.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I think that like among critics of Ethan Klein, a lot of the consensus around these lawsuits is that these were more vulnerable targets. Being women in the creator space and especially women of color, your earning potential and the size of your audience tends to be smaller. In Kaseytron’s case, like we previously discussed, she expressed that she could not afford a lawsuit, that hiring a legal defense would be a significant cost that she wouldn’t be able to shoulder. Each of these women launched a GoFundMe shortly after they were sued. And each of them talked about sort of the undue financial stress that this put upon them, as compared to some of these bigger content creators like Hasan Piker, who would more easily be able to afford a legal defense because he’s making exponentially more money on the platform than these women were.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So all of this is going down online. And last summer, you wrote a piece titled, “Ethan Klein’s War on Women.” What was that essay about, and how was it received?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So all of this is going down online. And last summer, you wrote a piece titled, “Ethan Klein’s War on Women.” What was that essay about, and how was it received?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So I wrote this piece as sort of an explainer because there wasn’t a ton of mainstream media coverage of these cases. There’s been mainstream coverage of Ethan Klein in the past, but despite how big these YouTubers are and how consequential their platforms can be, the mainstream media still doesn’t really understand them or I think appreciate how consequential they are. So I wrote this for my independent newsletter And the basic thrust of my piece is that these three women were each super, super vulnerable in their own way and that because of all of the harassment they were already receiving on a regular basis this was a moment where they were about to receive a lot more and how unfair i felt like that was and it fit in really well with the coverage that I already do because a lot of the topics that I cover are how these types of lawsuits can be used to smear and silence women. For example, I’ve covered Depp v. Heard and Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni and I’ve talked a lot about how these lawsuits and lawfare in general can be used as sort of targeted harassment against women in a really harmful and oftentimes devastating way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So I wrote this piece as sort of an explainer because there wasn’t a ton of mainstream media coverage of these cases. There’s been mainstream coverage of Ethan Klein in the past, but despite how big these YouTubers are and how consequential their platforms can be, the mainstream media still doesn’t really understand them or I think appreciate how consequential they are. So I wrote this for my independent newsletter And the basic thrust of my piece is that these three women were each super, super vulnerable in their own way and that because of all of the harassment they were already receiving on a regular basis this was a moment where they were about to receive a lot more and how unfair i felt like that was and it fit in really well with the coverage that I already do because a lot of the topics that I cover are how these types of lawsuits can be used to smear and silence women. For example, I’ve covered Depp v. Heard and Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni and I’ve talked a lot about how these lawsuits and lawfare in general can be used as sort of targeted harassment against women in a really harmful and oftentimes devastating way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s very interesting the way that Ethan Klein himself reacted to the piece. What did he say?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s very interesting the way that Ethan Klein himself reacted to the piece. What did he say?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>He basically accused me of calling him misogynistic, which I never used that word in the piece, although I guess you could draw from the title that that was the implication. But specifically what he said was, ‘I’m facing all of these allegations of me being a misogymist, so to level the playing field, I’m going to sue this other creator named SeanDaBlack.’ And SeanDaBlack is yet another Twitch streamer who also reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. And Ethan was basically saying, well, if you’re accusing me of suing a bunch of women, I’ll sue this guy as well, under the condition that he would not sue Sean if I apologized to him, which was super, super bizarre. And it definitely, you know, invoked a big response from his audience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>He basically accused me of calling him misogynistic, which I never used that word in the piece, although I guess you could draw from the title that that was the implication. But specifically what he said was, ‘I’m facing all of these allegations of me being a misogymist, so to level the playing field, I’m going to sue this other creator named SeanDaBlack.’ And SeanDaBlack is yet another Twitch streamer who also reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. And Ethan was basically saying, well, if you’re accusing me of suing a bunch of women, I’ll sue this guy as well, under the condition that he would not sue Sean if I apologized to him, which was super, super bizarre. And it definitely, you know, invoked a big response from his audience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sean also seen perplexed. He responded to the threat in his own stream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sean also seen perplexed. He responded to the threat in his own stream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack-Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: But like, ya’ll ain’t need to bring me into this. Right? I should only be mentioned in the, in the most handsome streamer conversation. That’s it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack-Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: But like, ya’ll ain’t need to bring me into this. Right? I should only be mentioned in the, in the most handsome streamer conversation. That’s it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And I didn’t apologize. I, at the time, texted, like, a fellow journalist who was also involved in this and said like, you know, ‘you can post this on Twitter where I’m no longer active. And you can say that if this is truly gonna stop Ethan from suing this other creator, then I would apologize.’ But Ethan said that that didn’t count and SeanDaBlack did a stream where he was like.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And I didn’t apologize. I, at the time, texted, like, a fellow journalist who was also involved in this and said like, you know, ‘you can post this on Twitter where I’m no longer active. And you can say that if this is truly gonna stop Ethan from suing this other creator, then I would apologize.’ But Ethan said that that didn’t count and SeanDaBlack did a stream where he was like.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack -Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: Ethan’s trying to, uh, swing his dick around being like, uh-huh, I have so much money to spend. I have so much money to spend, right? He wants the back and forth. He wants me to be talking about this right now. And in his mind, he wants me to be scared. He wants me to be afraid.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack -Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: Ethan’s trying to, uh, swing his dick around being like, uh-huh, I have so much money to spend. I have so much money to spend, right? He wants the back and forth. He wants me to be talking about this right now. And in his mind, he wants me to be scared. He wants me to be afraid.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So then I wrote a follow-up piece being like, Ethan Klein doesn’t deserve my apology. And fortunately, he did not sue SeanDaBlack.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So then I wrote a follow-up piece being like, Ethan Klein doesn’t deserve my apology. And fortunately, he did not sue SeanDaBlack.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Sean, Kat saw Ethan’s threat of a lawsuit for what it really was. It’s a tactic called lawfare and it’s become increasingly common, especially in the influencer space. Let’s open another tab: the lawfare content economy. It’s interesting too, because there was nothing in your piece, your original piece, that he could sue you for.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Sean, Kat saw Ethan’s threat of a lawsuit for what it really was. It’s a tactic called lawfare and it’s become increasingly common, especially in the influencer space. Let’s open another tab: the lawfare content economy. It’s interesting too, because there was nothing in your piece, your original piece, that he could sue you for.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, you’re a journalist, you are protected under free speech laws. But choosing to threaten a completely different, unrelated creator, SeanDaBlack, who has a significantly smaller following than him and presumably much fewer legal resources, also didn’t sit right with a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, you’re a journalist, you are protected under free speech laws. But choosing to threaten a completely different, unrelated creator, SeanDaBlack, who has a significantly smaller following than him and presumably much fewer legal resources, also didn’t sit right with a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A lot of online compared this case to a tactic called lawfare. Can you explain what that is?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A lot of online compared this case to a tactic called lawfare. Can you explain what that is?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So, lawfare refers to a phenomenon where somebody launches a lawsuit, not because the case has an actual legal merit, but because they know it will cause so much harm to the defendant through legal costs and the pressure of being subjected to the legal system. It’s a term that has particularly grown popular due to Donald Trump’s habitual use of lawfare and other conservatives. We’ve seen this with Trump, we’ve seen this with Elon Musk. And we’re increasingly seeing it in the landscape of the internet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So, lawfare refers to a phenomenon where somebody launches a lawsuit, not because the case has an actual legal merit, but because they know it will cause so much harm to the defendant through legal costs and the pressure of being subjected to the legal system. It’s a term that has particularly grown popular due to Donald Trump’s habitual use of lawfare and other conservatives. We’ve seen this with Trump, we’ve seen this with Elon Musk. And we’re increasingly seeing it in the landscape of the internet.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ethan Klein is not the first creator to sue his critics and I know that he will not be the last. We’re seeing it more and more and people online are even referring to it as lolfare in this context, like LOL fare, because not only are they seeing it as a way to harass a target through the legal system, but they’re also seeing it as a way for the plaintiff, the person bringing the lawsuit to be able to make content out of it. And oftentimes this content is very tongue-in-cheek because in Ethan Klein’s case, he says that these lawsuits have merit. He has held to that. He continues to say that these lawsuits have merit and that they are not law fair but at the exact same time, he’s also made them such a prominent topic on his podcast and on his live show that he’s reaping a lot of benefit from it, too. And a lot people in his audience and a lot the detractors of these women are really, really enjoying it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ethan Klein is not the first creator to sue his critics and I know that he will not be the last. We’re seeing it more and more and people online are even referring to it as lolfare in this context, like LOL fare, because not only are they seeing it as a way to harass a target through the legal system, but they’re also seeing it as a way for the plaintiff, the person bringing the lawsuit to be able to make content out of it. And oftentimes this content is very tongue-in-cheek because in Ethan Klein’s case, he says that these lawsuits have merit. He has held to that. He continues to say that these lawsuits have merit and that they are not law fair but at the exact same time, he’s also made them such a prominent topic on his podcast and on his live show that he’s reaping a lot of benefit from it, too. And a lot people in his audience and a lot the detractors of these women are really, really enjoying it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And lawfare also fuels an entire genre of YouTube content called LawTube. It started with the defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Lawyers built huge followings online by discussing widely publicized cases. Other content creators, who primarily covered pop culture and influencer drama, jumped in too. They weren’t legal experts, but they also built audiences and made money by covering high-profile cases. Now, whatever lawfare is used against other creators, it feeds this thriving ecosystem of reaction content, which can direct more harassment against victims of lawfare.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And lawfare also fuels an entire genre of YouTube content called LawTube. It started with the defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Lawyers built huge followings online by discussing widely publicized cases. Other content creators, who primarily covered pop culture and influencer drama, jumped in too. They weren’t legal experts, but they also built audiences and made money by covering high-profile cases. Now, whatever lawfare is used against other creators, it feeds this thriving ecosystem of reaction content, which can direct more harassment against victims of lawfare.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>How does lawfare destabilize people who, you know, might be comfortable enough, but aren’t wealthy by any means?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>How does lawfare destabilize people who, you know, might be comfortable enough, but aren’t wealthy by any means?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong> One of the things that I think a lot of people don’t realize is just how expensive defending yourself legally is. Even if you ultimately win a case, it can still cost people tens of thousands of dollars just to file a motion to dismiss. So most lawyers charge, you know, hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour. So even if you don’t get to trial, you can still be looking at these just like staggering fees that could easily bankrupt the average person. Another aspect I think is just the emotional and mental toll it takes on people. Lawsuits are inherently really, really stressful. It involves so many filings, so much back and forth. And with every filing and every decision that a judge makes, it’s like resetting the clock on whether it’s gonna go your way or whether it won’t. So there are a lot of aspects that make lawfare not only one of the most, I would say, prominent modern harassment strategies but also something that can individually devastate people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong> One of the things that I think a lot of people don’t realize is just how expensive defending yourself legally is. Even if you ultimately win a case, it can still cost people tens of thousands of dollars just to file a motion to dismiss. So most lawyers charge, you know, hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour. So even if you don’t get to trial, you can still be looking at these just like staggering fees that could easily bankrupt the average person. Another aspect I think is just the emotional and mental toll it takes on people. Lawsuits are inherently really, really stressful. It involves so many filings, so much back and forth. And with every filing and every decision that a judge makes, it’s like resetting the clock on whether it’s gonna go your way or whether it won’t. So there are a lot of aspects that make lawfare not only one of the most, I would say, prominent modern harassment strategies but also something that can individually devastate people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>For Denims, this legal battle consumed most of the last year. It really affected her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>For Denims, this legal battle consumed most of the last year. It really affected her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>It is very stressful because I know that he has more money than me. He knows that he has more money than me. Everyone involved knows that he has significantly more money than me, so it’s like a very stressful process because so much of the legal system is based on how much you can pay for the best lawyers. So I think for a great period of time, I was incredibly stressed about financials or at least decently stressed about financials. But I think I’m just very lucky that I had a lot of people who supported me and I had lot of people who wanted to see me fight and who donated to my GoFundMe. And yeah, that was, I think the thing that was worse than the financial stuff was just like the time and the headache of… like, we could be spending this time productively. We could making content that’s fun, and instead we’re just sitting here talking to lawyers and prepping lawyer content and going to hearings or whatever. Like, it’s just…it was such a time sink. It still is sort of a time-sink.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>It is very stressful because I know that he has more money than me. He knows that he has more money than me. Everyone involved knows that he has significantly more money than me, so it’s like a very stressful process because so much of the legal system is based on how much you can pay for the best lawyers. So I think for a great period of time, I was incredibly stressed about financials or at least decently stressed about financials. But I think I’m just very lucky that I had a lot of people who supported me and I had lot of people who wanted to see me fight and who donated to my GoFundMe. And yeah, that was, I think the thing that was worse than the financial stuff was just like the time and the headache of… like, we could be spending this time productively. We could making content that’s fun, and instead we’re just sitting here talking to lawyers and prepping lawyer content and going to hearings or whatever. Like, it’s just…it was such a time sink. It still is sort of a time-sink.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And something you did say was that you weren’t going to settle. You weren’t gonna back down. What was motivating you through that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And something you did say was that you weren’t going to settle. You weren’t gonna back down. What was motivating you through that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I don’t like bullies. I think bullies suck. And it’s sad because once upon a time, Ethan was the person that went after the bullies, I think, and he like defended against the bullys. And then he like, he became that which he sought to destroy. And I’m sorry, like on principle, it seems wrong to just fold over or like roll ove and die on that, like… It’s, okay, so I immediately fold, everyone, all of us settle and we just try to get out of this case as quickly as possible. What social precedent does that set? Not even like a legal precedent, what social precedent does it set that the second someone with more money than you tries to fight, everyone just rolls over and says, okay, well, I’m not gonna fight this. Well, I am not gonna to fight this. Like, it opens the door for him or anyone else to just be able to pursue, like, bullsh*t lawsuits against lots of other people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I don’t like bullies. I think bullies suck. And it’s sad because once upon a time, Ethan was the person that went after the bullies, I think, and he like defended against the bullys. And then he like, he became that which he sought to destroy. And I’m sorry, like on principle, it seems wrong to just fold over or like roll ove and die on that, like… It’s, okay, so I immediately fold, everyone, all of us settle and we just try to get out of this case as quickly as possible. What social precedent does that set? Not even like a legal precedent, what social precedent does it set that the second someone with more money than you tries to fight, everyone just rolls over and says, okay, well, I’m not gonna fight this. Well, I am not gonna to fight this. Like, it opens the door for him or anyone else to just be able to pursue, like, bullsh*t lawsuits against lots of other people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so to recap, Ethan Klein, once hailed as “the fair use king,” took these three women creators to court for reacting to his content. Who won? And how will all of this impact the internet going forward? Let’s go back to Kat and open one more tab: the future of fair use and reaction content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so to recap, Ethan Klein, once hailed as “the fair use king,” took these three women creators to court for reacting to his content. Who won? And how will all of this impact the internet going forward? Let’s go back to Kat and open one more tab: the future of fair use and reaction content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s talk about the outcome of these lawsuits. What happened in each case?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s talk about the outcome of these lawsuits. What happened in each case?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, Kaseytron, her case ended up being withdrawn. We can assume that there was a settlement in play. And the other thing about settlements is that typically they’re negotiated confidentially. So there’s no way to know what actually transpired in those closed-door negotiations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, Kaseytron, her case ended up being withdrawn. We can assume that there was a settlement in play. And the other thing about settlements is that typically they’re negotiated confidentially. So there’s no way to know what actually transpired in those closed-door negotiations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Following the end of that lawsuit, Kasey actually posted a public apology, which Ethan and Hila reacted to on the H3 Podcast stream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Following the end of that lawsuit, Kasey actually posted a public apology, which Ethan and Hila reacted to on the H3 Podcast stream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast -Show #215]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: We’ll watch it all together, and move on all together. \u003cbr>Hila Klein: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr>Kaseytron: I want to begin by stating I take responsibility for infringing the content nuke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast -Show #215]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: We’ll watch it all together, and move on all together. \u003cbr>Hila Klein: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr>Kaseytron: I want to begin by stating I take responsibility for infringing the content nuke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Kaseytron, you know, hers ended earliest and she was able to move on, go back to her normal content and her normal streaming. Frogan is still fighting this lawsuit and she recently announced via a statement that she had hired Denims’ lawyers after her lawyers tried and failed to negotiate with Ethan over more than a year’s time. Her lawsuit temporarily entered like a default stage. But she has said in her statement that she will be moving forward. And then Denims actually won her lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Kaseytron, you know, hers ended earliest and she was able to move on, go back to her normal content and her normal streaming. Frogan is still fighting this lawsuit and she recently announced via a statement that she had hired Denims’ lawyers after her lawyers tried and failed to negotiate with Ethan over more than a year’s time. Her lawsuit temporarily entered like a default stage. But she has said in her statement that she will be moving forward. And then Denims actually won her lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The final ruling came out in July, and Denims was in the perfect place to celebrate her win.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The final ruling came out in July, and Denims was in the perfect place to celebrate her win.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not gonna lie, I happened to be in Vegas at the time and I hadn’t won any money in Vegas. I didn’t spend much, but I hadn’t t won anything. So it felt like I won. It felt like I won. There was something amazing about being in the middle of a casino and I get the news that I just won my case. And I’m like, oh my God, like I hit the jackpot, dude. I was so over the moon. I was so happy because I knew it was like a matter of time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not gonna lie, I happened to be in Vegas at the time and I hadn’t won any money in Vegas. I didn’t spend much, but I hadn’t t won anything. So it felt like I won. It felt like I won. There was something amazing about being in the middle of a casino and I get the news that I just won my case. And I’m like, oh my God, like I hit the jackpot, dude. I was so over the moon. I was so happy because I knew it was like a matter of time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so let’s talk about her case. There are four factors that courts use to determine fair use. What is the purpose and character of using the copyrighted work? What is a nature of the copyrighted work? How much of it was used? Did the copyright holder lose money because their work was used?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so let’s talk about her case. There are four factors that courts use to determine fair use. What is the purpose and character of using the copyrighted work? What is a nature of the copyrighted work? How much of it was used? Did the copyright holder lose money because their work was used?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And the only one that I didn’t win was simply the, I think it’s the second one that says that a work deserves copyright protections. So the judge said, hey, you know what? The content nuke has enough original things in it that it is considered not just a factual piece, but also a creative piece that deserves copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And the only one that I didn’t win was simply the, I think it’s the second one that says that a work deserves copyright protections. So the judge said, hey, you know what? The content nuke has enough original things in it that it is considered not just a factual piece, but also a creative piece that deserves copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The first factor is the most important in these cases, ‘the purpose and character of using copyrighted work.’ And this is the biggest question in the debate over reaction content. Was this use transformative? In other words, did it add something new? In Denims’ case, the judge found that her reaction stream met three out of four fair use standards.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The first factor is the most important in these cases, ‘the purpose and character of using copyrighted work.’ And this is the biggest question in the debate over reaction content. Was this use transformative? In other words, did it add something new? In Denims’ case, the judge found that her reaction stream met three out of four fair use standards.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And all of the other factors, the judge ruled in my favor on those. So he said, yeah, the purpose and the character of the work is very different. And he proceeded to cite Ethan Klein’s original filing and Ethan Klein’s original statement that said, the purpose of her character is the complete opposite of my character. He also said that the other factors were in my favor that it’s hard to see a market replacement or a market substitution when the work is so different, when there’s so much reaction. But most importantly, he said that the work was transformative and that I did add more than enough substantial commentary, pauses, critiques for it to be considered fair use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And all of the other factors, the judge ruled in my favor on those. So he said, yeah, the purpose and the character of the work is very different. And he proceeded to cite Ethan Klein’s original filing and Ethan Klein’s original statement that said, the purpose of her character is the complete opposite of my character. He also said that the other factors were in my favor that it’s hard to see a market replacement or a market substitution when the work is so different, when there’s so much reaction. But most importantly, he said that the work was transformative and that I did add more than enough substantial commentary, pauses, critiques for it to be considered fair use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And here’s where it gets really interesting. Remember back in 2017, when a judge ruled that Ethan and Hila’s reaction video was, in fact, fair use? That case, this legal precedence that the client set, came up a lot in the ruling for Denims’ case. Here’s Kat again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And here’s where it gets really interesting. Remember back in 2017, when a judge ruled that Ethan and Hila’s reaction video was, in fact, fair use? That case, this legal precedence that the client set, came up a lot in the ruling for Denims’ case. Here’s Kat again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I have the excerpt of the judge’s decision right in front of me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I have the excerpt of the judge’s decision right in front of me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Please read dramatically. \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Please read dramatically. \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So there is one line in particular that says, ‘the undisputed purpose of defendant’s live stream is to contest, criticize, and mock plaintiff’s message, which the courts have found weighs in favor of fair use due to its transformative nature see Hoss versus Klein.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So there is one line in particular that says, ‘the undisputed purpose of defendant’s live stream is to contest, criticize, and mock plaintiff’s message, which the courts have found weighs in favor of fair use due to its transformative nature see Hoss versus Klein.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And he kept citing t to say, no, you can use a lot of a work and it’s still fair use. No, you should be able to criticize the people. That’s the heart of fair use, to be able to criticize people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And he kept citing t to say, no, you can use a lot of a work and it’s still fair use. No, you should be able to criticize the people. That’s the heart of fair use, to be able to criticize people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> That original case is actually cited a dozen times in the official judgment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> That original case is actually cited a dozen times in the official judgment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So as soon as this ruling and decision came out, critics of Ethan Klein were just like, ‘this is incredible. This is one of the most incredible turns that this could have taken.’ But it’s also not something people were super surprised by because from the very onset of these lawsuits, people pointed out how, again, hypocritical they found it that Ethan was suing someone over the very same cause of action that he had been sued for less than a decade prior. So them citing his own lawsuit win in his current lawsuit loss really was the cherry on top for people who had been arguing that these lawsuits were meritless the entire time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So as soon as this ruling and decision came out, critics of Ethan Klein were just like, ‘this is incredible. This is one of the most incredible turns that this could have taken.’ But it’s also not something people were super surprised by because from the very onset of these lawsuits, people pointed out how, again, hypocritical they found it that Ethan was suing someone over the very same cause of action that he had been sued for less than a decade prior. So them citing his own lawsuit win in his current lawsuit loss really was the cherry on top for people who had been arguing that these lawsuits were meritless the entire time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In addition to filing the lawsuits against these three women, Ethan has also filed more lawsuits against more creators, and as the lawsuits pile up, more and more creators throughout the entire ecosystem have begun to speak out against Ethan Klein. People started to leave Ethan Klein’s fan base. There is like another subreddit that is former fans of Ethan Klein who have spoken out against these lawsuits. There’s been a ton of viral tweets, viral TikToks basically painting him as just this new villain of the YouTube landscape. And not everybody sees it that way, but enough people do that I think it really has changed his reputation for the worse. I think if you’re not an H3 fan and if you barely know who Ethan Klein is, you’re probably gonna know him because of all of these posts that have to do with him being someone who sues his critics and tries to sue them into silence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In addition to filing the lawsuits against these three women, Ethan has also filed more lawsuits against more creators, and as the lawsuits pile up, more and more creators throughout the entire ecosystem have begun to speak out against Ethan Klein. People started to leave Ethan Klein’s fan base. There is like another subreddit that is former fans of Ethan Klein who have spoken out against these lawsuits. There’s been a ton of viral tweets, viral TikToks basically painting him as just this new villain of the YouTube landscape. And not everybody sees it that way, but enough people do that I think it really has changed his reputation for the worse. I think if you’re not an H3 fan and if you barely know who Ethan Klein is, you’re probably gonna know him because of all of these posts that have to do with him being someone who sues his critics and tries to sue them into silence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Some people might argue that everything that went down is just mindless internet drama that, I mean, like TikTok commentators like to constantly claim, it’s not that deep. But why does this matter for everyone? How does this ripple into every part of the internet?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say it really is that deep for a couple of reasons. One, social media and content creation is at the forefront of how we disseminate news and information today. Almost everyone is on social media, and increasingly, a majority of people get their news and information from content creators online. So having the freedom to speak your mind and analyze and, yes, react to other people’s content is really, really important in today’s modern world. And so the threat of lawsuits like this is something that I think could have a really negative effect on democracy, on free speech, and so on and so forth. So I think it really is that deep. And I think if people want to protect our access to information and our ability to have a voice and not be chilled into silence, then they should care about this because it could have major consequences beyond just this streaming community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say it really is that deep for a couple of reasons. One, social media and content creation is at the forefront of how we disseminate news and information today. Almost everyone is on social media, and increasingly, a majority of people get their news and information from content creators online. So having the freedom to speak your mind and analyze and, yes, react to other people’s content is really, really important in today’s modern world. And so the threat of lawsuits like this is something that I think could have a really negative effect on democracy, on free speech, and so on and so forth. So I think it really is that deep. And I think if people want to protect our access to information and our ability to have a voice and not be chilled into silence, then they should care about this because it could have major consequences beyond just this streaming community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims, being an Arab-American woman who talks about progressive politics on the internet, has a lot of haters. There are so many people, many of whom are men, who’ve grown their own following by clipping her content and bashing her on their channels. The scrutiny she already faced intensified over the last year because of this very public legal battle. But as annoying as these hate watchers are, Denims pointed out that her victory is also a win for them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims, being an Arab-American woman who talks about progressive politics on the internet, has a lot of haters. There are so many people, many of whom are men, who’ve grown their own following by clipping her content and bashing her on their channels. The scrutiny she already faced intensified over the last year because of this very public legal battle. But as annoying as these hate watchers are, Denims pointed out that her victory is also a win for them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>The people who enjoy criticizing me, a ruling that was bad for me, would have been bad for them. I think until the filing became official, I think it was internet drama. And I think after the filing, it’s like, dog, this is like, this affects everything on the internet, everything. It impacts what kind of content is allowed on Twitter. It impacts what kind of contact is allowed on Reddit. It impacts the content on YouTube. Like, it impacts so much. And even if you don’t personally care for my content or my commentary or my political views, you should want your favorite content creator to be able to critique the people that they dislike or disagree with. It is important to have people be able speak on the issues they want to speak on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>The people who enjoy criticizing me, a ruling that was bad for me, would have been bad for them. I think until the filing became official, I think it was internet drama. And I think after the filing, it’s like, dog, this is like, this affects everything on the internet, everything. It impacts what kind of content is allowed on Twitter. It impacts what kind of contact is allowed on Reddit. It impacts the content on YouTube. Like, it impacts so much. And even if you don’t personally care for my content or my commentary or my political views, you should want your favorite content creator to be able to critique the people that they dislike or disagree with. It is important to have people be able speak on the issues they want to speak on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan took to Instagram stories after the ruling came out. He wrote, I’m extremely confident that this will be overturned by the appellate courts and we will be proceeding with the appeal immediately. Close All Tabs reached out to his team for comment, but we have not received a response. Denims, meanwhile, posted her own update.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan took to Instagram stories after the ruling came out. He wrote, I’m extremely confident that this will be overturned by the appellate courts and we will be proceeding with the appeal immediately. Close All Tabs reached out to his team for comment, but we have not received a response. Denims, meanwhile, posted her own update.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: Before we start, let me bring in our honored guest. You might have previously known him as “the fair use king. “\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: Before we start, let me bring in our honored guest. You might have previously known him as “the fair use king. “\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She reaches off camera and pulls a tripod into the frame. On it is a mannequin head with a printed photo of Ethan Klein taped over it. It’s wearing a gold costume crown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She reaches off camera and pulls a tripod into the frame. On it is a mannequin head with a printed photo of Ethan Klein taped over it. It’s wearing a gold costume crown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: And let me just…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: And let me just…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She plucks off the crown and places it on her own head.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: There we go. Much better.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: There we go. Much better.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, I think everybody called him “the fair use king” for such a long time. And I think the second you start suing other creators for doing the same thing that you got really big and popular for, I think you should lose the rights to that crown, the social rights to that crown. And I think you should give it to the person who’s actually trying to defend fair use. Because it’s not just fair use when it’s the people that you like. It’s not freedom of speech when it’s people saying things you like. It’s—it should also apply when people aren’t saying things that you like, when people are saying things that you dislike. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and if it’s too heavy for you, I will gladly take it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, I think everybody called him “the fair use king” for such a long time. And I think the second you start suing other creators for doing the same thing that you got really big and popular for, I think you should lose the rights to that crown, the social rights to that crown. And I think you should give it to the person who’s actually trying to defend fair use. Because it’s not just fair use when it’s the people that you like. It’s not freedom of speech when it’s people saying things you like. It’s—it should also apply when people aren’t saying things that you like, when people are saying things that you dislike. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and if it’s too heavy for you, I will gladly take it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and edited by Chris Hambrick. Additional production support from Ana de Almeida Amaral. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, our intern Lauren Yoon, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. This episode features clips and archive tape from H3H3 Productions, the H3 Podcast, Leftovers, Kaseytron, Frogan, SeanDaBlack, and Denims. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and edited by Chris Hambrick. Additional production support from Ana de Almeida Amaral. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, our intern Lauren Yoon, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. This episode features clips and archive tape from H3H3 Productions, the H3 Podcast, Leftovers, Kaseytron, Frogan, SeanDaBlack, and Denims. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I will be continuing to fight. Ethan said he will be taking this to appeals. So I guess maybe in 18 months or whatever, when I win that, then I can give more updates then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I will be continuing to fight. Ethan said he will be taking this to appeals. So I guess maybe in 18 months or whatever, when I win that, then I can give more updates then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Twitch streamer Denims made a reaction video about Ethan Klein’s nearly two-hour takedown video of Hasan Piker, she wasn’t expecting to be sued for copyright infringement. She employed a commonly-used method of streaming the original video and interjecting with reactions, commentary and analysis. But Klein, who was once seen as a champion of fair use after he won a similar lawsuit in 2017, sued Denims and other content creators anyway. Morgan talks to Denims and journalist Kat Tenbarge about what made these cases different and how reaction content across the internet could change based on how the courts ultimately rule.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5056668526\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/denims\">Denims\u003c/a>, political Twitch streamer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/kattenbarge?s=20\">Kat Tenbarge\u003c/a>, independent journalist, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061994/a-political-reckoning-for-twitch\">A Political Reckoning for Twitch? | KQED\u003c/a> — Close All Tabs, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-lawsuits-kaceytron-frogan-denims\">Ethan Klein’s War on Women\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spitfirenews.com/p/ethan-klein-seandablack-lawsuits-kaceytron-denims-frogan-taylor-lorenz\">Ethan Klein Doesn’t Deserve My Apology\u003c/a> — Kat Tenbarge, \u003cem>Spitfire News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/culture/2025/07/01/a-youtuber-kicks-up-a-stink-over-a-flatulent-reaction-video\">A YouTuber kicks up a stink over a flatulent “reaction” video\u003c/a> — staff, \u003cem>The Economist\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://copyrightlately.com/whats-up-copyright-lately-summer-2026-roundup/#h-content-nuked\">What’s Up With Copyright Lately?: Summer Breeze Edition\u003c/a> — Aaron Moss, \u003cem>Copyright Lately\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tubefilter.com/2024/09/19/should-youtube-introduce-revenue-sharing-for-reaction-content/\">Should YouTube introduce revenue-sharing for reaction content?\u003c/a> — James Hale, \u003cem>Tubefilter\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/reactgate-twitch-streamer-xqc-and-h3-podcast-host-ethan-klein-debate-whether-reaction-videos-are-stolen-content-215557884.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEHVC7yDZDpT9LR_mf2G9uNjbyzmVlCsUX88WTUkq-MGvwqcdCJw5UOuLLQrhAajCZzEi6bejwgRXLx5IK-BfXlRk0Q3ME8WghOI7A2Zqq5tCmPrEEuKTSYSQ-NzB1mJiijoGkCHCb_3T82qwCQbTkjpmoJju6xjtmOBKcvZwf5H\">‘Reactgate’: Twitch streamer xQc and ‘H3 Podcast’ host Ethan Klein debate whether ‘reaction videos’ are ‘stolen content’\u003c/a> — Katie Mather, \u003cem>Yahoo News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/4349864/ethan-klein-h3h3productions-fair-use-protection-account-fupa/\">How h3h3’s Ethan Klein Might Change YouTube Forever\u003c/a> — Melissa Chan, \u003cem>Time Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Tabbies. We need your help. If you like our deep dives and you want to hear more, then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video] \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hi there. It’s me, your old friend, Ethan Klein. It’s been a while since we’ve last spoken. In that time I’ve had three kids, all boys, I’ve lost a hundred pounds, and I’ve pissed off 75% of the in-\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And I became insane.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That second voice you just heard is Alexandra Saber, a Twitch streamer better known as…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Everyone I know calls me Denims, so…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna keep calling her Denims for this episode. She’s been on the show before, when we talked about the growing corner of political commentary on Twitch. The situation we’re diving into today is related to that. So last year, Ethan Klein, the YouTuber behind the channel H3H3 Productions and host of the H3 Podcast, dropped a content nuke. This is a long-form video format that Ethan himself popularized. It’s basically an extensive takedown criticizing another creator for their behavior, comments, and past posts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The content nuke is like a deep dive, building the case to cancel someone else. Ethan had been teasing this video for months, so his fan base was pretty hyped. And this one was about someone he had been publicly feuding with for years: streamer, political commentator, and his former friend, Hasan Piker. Ethan’s nearly 2-hour-long video starts with J. Robert Oppenheimer quoting Hindu scripture, which he famously referenced after he watched the detonation of the nuclear bomb he designed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[ Audio of J. Robert Oppenheimer]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Then the video launches into a super cut of clips from Hasan’s stream, layered with footage of a nuclear bomb after impact, mushroom cloud and all. Denims wasn’t impressed, so she streamed her reaction, which did involve playing the video on her channel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of wild claims that were made in that video that were just factually untrue. And so I would pause, I would make jokes or I’d pause and I would say, well, this isn’t true. Like, here’s this and this and this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims’ reaction Twitch stream]\u003cbr>Speaker: That lines up with leftist values.\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Hasan’s third claim is—\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[clicking sound]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: Okay, first of all, they he’s not even providing sources for half of this stuff. I… He’s provided like bits and segments, if any. Okay?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I think people just like myself, when I’m curious about a video, but I know that it’s going to be filled with falsehoods, I want to watch an expert talk about it and break down what’s wrong with that video, sort of like watching in a weird way, I guess, like Mythbusters. And I think that’s why a lot of people tuned into my stream to watch that the two hour video turned into a four hour livestream, cause I wanted to see someone say, no, this isn’t true. Here’s this article that shows this isn’t true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And then, months later, she found herself at the center of one of the most talked about lawsuits in the content creator world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I do remember that I found out the exact same way that everyone else found out. So he released this video on like June, was it, I think it was 19th.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: Hi there. My name is Ethan Klein, and my favorite hobby is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. Today, I invite you into my home to share my favorite past time with you. Join me in creating generational wealth for my attorney.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>This is a video, another video that he had been teasing for a while and I was kind of curious what it was gonna be about. I was like, is it gonna be a sequel to the original? Is it gonna be a video on some other creators? And so I’m like watching this video, I’m, like, hmm, that’s me on the screen. That is an official court document with my name on it. And then I click and it’s like, it’s almost a little bit disbelief that it’s real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions-I’m Suing These Three Creators- Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Well, I’m happy to tell you guys now, I, Ethan Klein, have registered Hasan Piker content nuke with the United States Library of Congress. Some of you guys out there sweating?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims’ stream falls under this genre known as reaction content, videos and live streams in which creators react to and comment on content made by others. You’ll see this on Twitch and TikTok and YouTube and Reels. They’ll play a short clip from a movie or political speech or someone else’s video, and then give their take. Reaction content relies on this legal doctrine called fair use. Fair use is what protects the unlicensed use of copyrighted material if it’s used in news reporting, criticism, teaching, research, and commentary. And fair use is fundamental to the internet as we know it, because it protects freedom of expression. But there are, of course, limits. Which is why, at first, Denims was worried she had stepped into actual copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I go back, I watch my original video, I watched my original, like, reaction, and then I felt a lot better. I was like, okay, wait, wait…I took a 2 hour video, I turned it into 4 hours. I had a bunch of links where I showed people articles. I showed people a bunch context for things. I commented a bunch, and I really tried to transform the video and transform the content to the best of my ability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Here’s the ironic twist. The doctrine of fair use that protects content creators like Denims’? Ethan himself set the precedent when it comes to internet content by winning a different lawsuit nearly 10 years ago. In fact, for a long time, he was known as the “the fair use king.” It’s a big reason why Denims was so shocked.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Like, the guy who’s known as the “the fair use king” is going to sue me and other creators for reacting to his video. Huh?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims is not the only streamer Ethan went after, but the three creators he sued were also among dozens of others who made similar videos, all using the original content nuke. And as critics have pointed out, there’s a pattern among the creators that Ethan did choose to single out. So how did Ethan Klein, once the “the fair use king” and champion of free speech, become the kind of litigious antagonist that he once defeated?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, we’re diving into why this case is more than just a feud between influencers. It has ripple effects that would impact nearly every platform and every piece of content that you engage with online. There’s so much to unpack here. Censorship, power dynamics, and years of personal beef. It is so much bigger than just internet drama. Buckle up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s open our first tab. Why did Ethan Klein sue other streamers? Today we’re here to talk about a series of lawsuits that kind of rocked the content creator economy. At their very core, what are these three lawsuits about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So these three lawsuits are about copyright infringement and specifically whether it is a copyright infringment violation to stream and react to another creator’s content on your own platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Kat Tenbarge has also been on Close All Taps before. She’s an independent journalist who runs the newsletter Spitfire News, and she covers the intersection of influencers and politics. She also covered this case, and in doing so, unwillingly became part of the story herself. We’ll get into that part later in the episode, but let’s talk about everything leading up to these lawsuits first.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In this case, three Twitch streamers each played a YouTuber’s video on their live stream and reacted to it. And then he sued them for copyright infringement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m really curious, like, who watches this content? What is the impact culturally online?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, so, so many people watch this type of content. I see it in so many different places, and I imagine that a lot of audience members don’t even register it as reaction content because it’s become so ubiquitous. But even like, the biggest news and politics creators, a lot what they do is reaction content. If you are watching somebody do like a stitch on TikTok or Instagram Reels, that’s a form of reaction content, or if you ever go on Twitch, that is reaction content for the most part, because even when someone is playing a video game, they’re still taking someone else’s intellectual property and sort of making it their own. Like, reaction content is basically one of the building blocks of most content today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, what was your first reaction, speaking of reaction content, but what was the first reaction when you saw the news of Ethan Klein’s recent lawsuits?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, my first reaction, I was pretty surprised because I think a lot of people online saw this as a very hypocritical move. Back in 2017, Ethan Klein was sued himself by another content creator for the exact same reason, copyright infringement, after he reacted to and parodied and mocked a different YouTuber’s material. And that lawsuit was a really defining point in Ethan Klein’s own career. So, you know, fast forward less than a decade later, he’s basically doing the exact same thing to these three women.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2016. This YouTuber, Matt Hoss, had this comedy series called The Bold Guy. In these sketches, Matt plays this pick-up artist who also does parkour. It has not aged well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Matt Hoss’ The Bold Guy Video]\u003cbr>Woman: Who are you calling an attention whore? \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: I’m asking, because you keep sticking your ass up in the air. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Woman: I have the right to exercise here if I want. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Man: Of course you do, and I have a right to approach and talk to you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In this video, the woman slaps Matt and then tells him to catch her. A parkour chase ensues. Ethan and his wife, Hila, saw this and posted their own video where they played clips and made fun of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Look, can you imagine the casting call for this? Looking for a cute, petite, parkour girl to star in my parkour sex video.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan and Hila’s video was 14 minutes long. It used three minutes of Matt’s original video. Well, Matt didn’t like that. So he filed a copyright notice with YouTube and YouTube took down Ethan and Hila’s video. Ethan and Hila challenged the takedown and argued fair use. So in 2017, Matt sued them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when this lawsuit was launched against them, they issued a plea to the YouTube community at large basically pointing out that if they lost, it would set a really bad precedent for everybody because it would mean that everybody could potentially be sued over the type of content that had already become so popular, so mainstream, and so ubiquitous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: After a year and a half of doing depositions, filing summaries, motions, hundreds of thousands of dollars later, we slammed this b*tch, dude! YES! We won the court case! YES!\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And when they won that case, it felt like they had established this precedent that wouldn’t just protect them, but would also protect all of these other creators.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, how did this pretty landmark decision that, like you said, set that precedent, open the door for the explosion of commentary content and reaction videos and media criticism video essays?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the the precedent that was set by Ethan and Hila winning this lawsuit was that it fell under the category of fair use as long as you were putting your own commentary spin on whatever you were reacting to. So for example, you can’t just stream someone else’s content on your channel and walk away and let it play for the entirety of the clip, but as long you’re engaging with it in some way, shape, or form, that is what the judge determined allowed it to fall under fair use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so there’s that legal precedent, but it seems like Ethan’s stance on this issue is like dramatically different. Can you briefly catch us up on how Ethan, his content, and his audience have changed since winning that 2017 lawsuit?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So since 2017, Ethan and Hila have really leaned into podcasting as like the main content that they make and the way they engage with their audience. And this drama stems from a podcast that Ethan had done previously with Hasan Piker called Leftovers. Leftovers ran for a few years and it was both of them talking about politics from this like leftist perspective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Leftovers #31]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: I mean, Trump took a fat f*cking L, dude. Yeah. And you’re seeing it already, we have a whole section in here of Republicans turning on Trump.\u003cbr>Hasan Piker: Here’s the issue. This is not a Donald Trump issue. This is a Republican party issue. Here’s why…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’ve talked about Hasan on this show a bunch. He’s the guy who turned political commentary streams into a viable genre on Twitch. Leftovers was this collaboration between the superstar of a burgeoning corner of Twitch and the YouTube “fair use king.” They joked around, made fun of Trump supporters, interviewed economists, and reacted to what was happening in politics at the time. And they genuinely did seem like friends, but ultimately, it didn’t last.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>In late 2023, after Hamas attacked Israel, things really shifted between the two of them because Hasan Piker is really principled in his advocacy for Palestinians and his opposition to Israel, whereas Ethan Klein actually lived in Israel for a period of time, his wife Hila served in the IDF and is Israeli, and his perspective on the matter is very different. The two of them have kind of gone in between both sides of this, but the perception, at least widely online, is that they’re much more pro-Israeli than Hasan is. And so this drove a wedge between these content creators that has just grown and grown and grown and grown. There has been a ton of back and forth drama between the two of them, allegations slung in both directions. And it all kind of led up to Ethan creating something that he described as a content nuke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Content Nuke Youtube video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Ethan Klein: The funny thing about me, I don’t like terrorism, and I don’t like terrorists. If they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, they’re all bad. And over time I started to learn that my co-host, he really likes terrorists.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>It was a nearly two hour long video criticizing and sort of condemning Hasan Piker. And when Ethan made this video, it obviously set off sort of a bomb in the discourse space where a bunch of different Twitch streamers, people who loved Hasan, people who hated Hasan people who were friends with Hasan, people who were sort of like associates or orbiters of Hasan they were all reacting to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In the later video where he announced the lawsuits, Ethan called the content nuke a trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: It’s not that I wanted these people to steal my video. It’s that I knew they would. The trap was set and it worked even better than I imagined it would. We captured pretty much every large streamer reacting to it in its entirety immediately after it was published.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan sued three women for using his content nuke in their reaction streams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Each of them played it while they were Twitch streaming and each of them offered their own commentary throughout the video. But the argument that Ethan made in his lawsuits is that they didn’t offer enough commentary for it to fall under fair use. And one of the things that he claimed they had done is that, they had basically established their intent to divert views from his channel so that he would reap fewer profits, which he viewed as a violation of his copyright.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Ethan himself said, many major streamers and YouTubers reacted to the content nuke. But he only went after three of them. All of them are women, and they also share a lot of political stances. Why did Ethan single them out? We’ll talk about that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OK. More on the content nuke, the lawsuits, and a tricky intimidation tactic called lawfare. That’s after this break. Stick around!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Who did Ethan Klein sue? And why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, Hasan is mentioned throughout these lawsuits pretty extensively,.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But he himself is not a defendant in any of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about the three women who are. Who are these creators? What is their content like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, so the three women who Ethan Klein sued are Kaceytron, Denims, and Frogan. And obviously those aren’t their real names. Those are the names that they go by on Twitch. But Kaceytron, I would say out of the three, had the least to do with the drama between Ethan and Hasan. She’s a longtime Twitch streamer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Kaceytron reaction video]\u003cbr>Kaceytron: I know a lot of people have been wanting to watch this without necessarily supporting Ethan Klein, so we’re gonna watch it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>She’s known for having an audience of sort of like the girls and the gays, and she does a lot of satirical, really kind of like, purposefully like tongue-in-cheek content that sometimes touches on politics. So she was one of the defendants who Ethan sued, and she also is known for having a pretty modest background. She grew up in what she and her family describes as generational poverty. And once this lawsuit was officially filed and she got served, she talked about how depressed she was and how much this was pushing her and sort of her family members to the very edge. So that was Kaceytron’s story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Denims and Frogan are two women of color who are also Twitch streamers. Denims has a bigger platform than Frogan. Frogan has worked very closely with Hasan Piker in the past, and both of them had sort of come under attack from Ethan and the H3 fandom previously because they had this sort of closer relationship with Hasan Piker. And I would say both of them also, as women of color, and Frogan in particular, as a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, also previously had received a ton of consistent, almost nonstop racist harassment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Frogan Twitch video]\u003cbr>Frogan: I do appreciate everyone’s support, and thank you for watching it with me. He doesn’t want people to know when it’s dropping because we’re all watching through other streamers. And I suggest you all watch it through other people as well.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>These lawsuits became a vector for that harassment, where it was just another reason for creators to make almost daily content about these women, smearing them, attacking them, even going so far as harassing them in some cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And it’s also worth noting that two of these women already had histories with Ethan Klein. Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So as sort of the Hamas-Israel war becomes this wedge issue driving Hasan Piker and Ethan Klein apart, you also saw Ethan really go on the attack against creators who were really supportive of Palestinians and Palestine. And one of the ways he did this is he would identify things that these creators had done as anti-Semitic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A few years ago, Frogan and Denims were part of a TwitchCon panel for Arab creators, and they jokingly created a ranking of people who can say habibi. Here’s Denims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And for some context, habibi just means my love. So like, obviously anyone can say it. It’s kind of like saying inshallah, like anyone can say that. And at the bottom of the tier list was a category called “loves sabra.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Based on the hummus brand Sabra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Which they were making fun of as like the worst hummus that you can buy at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>A hummus that most people dislike because it tastes not good. And we put a variety of creators on the bottom tier list, myself included in that category because it was just a fun tier list but we also had put Ethan Klein in that list.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Ethan had sort of characterized this as anti-Semitic because it’s an Israeli hummus brand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Me and the other four creators, got banned from Twitch for 30 days and lost ad rev. So this has been like a long standing chain of events that’s gone on for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But Ethan has also had beef with other creators who reacted to his content nuke. A couple of years ago, there was “Reactgate.” It was this huge internet wide debate over the way certain reaction creators used other people’s content without adding any real commentary or original substance. Amid the discourse, Ethan accused another Twitch streamer, xQc, of being a content thief. The feud culminated in a very heated live streamed argument between the two.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast-Debating xQc On Copyright-H3TV #86]\u003cbr>xQc: People would rather watch me full-screen cam, do the f*cking worm than watch your prime content. \u003cbr>Ethan Klein: Bro, do it for a week. Do a week of no reaction content and see how many f*cking views you get.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>xQc was one of the many creators who reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. But despite their previous feud over this exact issue, Ethan did not sue xQc. In the video announcing the lawsuits, Ethan said,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from h3h3Productions Youtube video]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: These people were not targeted based on their gender, their identity, their political beliefs.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But it is worth noting that they all orbit Hasan Piker. They’re smaller creators with similar views who make similar content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So they do share a lot of the same audience. There’s a lot crossover there. And even on a personal level, a lot these creators are friends with each other. They have sort of like collaborations or partnerships in the past. And so they almost sort of orbit around the ecosystem that Hasan has created.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It almost seems like these lawsuits were part of a kind of proxy war with Hasan Piker.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes, that is definitely how a lot of people online saw the situation. You saw a lot the same critics of Hasan pivot to support and endorse these lawsuits. And you also saw people in the H3 fandom sort of use this as part of their digital online war on Hasan and his associates, like these women who were being sued were almost treated as stand-ins for Hasan Piker himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Besides the fact that they all kind of orbit Hasan Piker, are there any theories as to why Ethan would choose to target these specific creators?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I think that like among critics of Ethan Klein, a lot of the consensus around these lawsuits is that these were more vulnerable targets. Being women in the creator space and especially women of color, your earning potential and the size of your audience tends to be smaller. In Kaseytron’s case, like we previously discussed, she expressed that she could not afford a lawsuit, that hiring a legal defense would be a significant cost that she wouldn’t be able to shoulder. Each of these women launched a GoFundMe shortly after they were sued. And each of them talked about sort of the undue financial stress that this put upon them, as compared to some of these bigger content creators like Hasan Piker, who would more easily be able to afford a legal defense because he’s making exponentially more money on the platform than these women were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So all of this is going down online. And last summer, you wrote a piece titled, “Ethan Klein’s War on Women.” What was that essay about, and how was it received?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So I wrote this piece as sort of an explainer because there wasn’t a ton of mainstream media coverage of these cases. There’s been mainstream coverage of Ethan Klein in the past, but despite how big these YouTubers are and how consequential their platforms can be, the mainstream media still doesn’t really understand them or I think appreciate how consequential they are. So I wrote this for my independent newsletter And the basic thrust of my piece is that these three women were each super, super vulnerable in their own way and that because of all of the harassment they were already receiving on a regular basis this was a moment where they were about to receive a lot more and how unfair i felt like that was and it fit in really well with the coverage that I already do because a lot of the topics that I cover are how these types of lawsuits can be used to smear and silence women. For example, I’ve covered Depp v. Heard and Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni and I’ve talked a lot about how these lawsuits and lawfare in general can be used as sort of targeted harassment against women in a really harmful and oftentimes devastating way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s very interesting the way that Ethan Klein himself reacted to the piece. What did he say?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>He basically accused me of calling him misogynistic, which I never used that word in the piece, although I guess you could draw from the title that that was the implication. But specifically what he said was, ‘I’m facing all of these allegations of me being a misogymist, so to level the playing field, I’m going to sue this other creator named SeanDaBlack.’ And SeanDaBlack is yet another Twitch streamer who also reacted to Ethan’s content nuke. And Ethan was basically saying, well, if you’re accusing me of suing a bunch of women, I’ll sue this guy as well, under the condition that he would not sue Sean if I apologized to him, which was super, super bizarre. And it definitely, you know, invoked a big response from his audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Sean also seen perplexed. He responded to the threat in his own stream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack-Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: But like, ya’ll ain’t need to bring me into this. Right? I should only be mentioned in the, in the most handsome streamer conversation. That’s it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>And I didn’t apologize. I, at the time, texted, like, a fellow journalist who was also involved in this and said like, you know, ‘you can post this on Twitter where I’m no longer active. And you can say that if this is truly gonna stop Ethan from suing this other creator, then I would apologize.’ But Ethan said that that didn’t count and SeanDaBlack did a stream where he was like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from SeanDaBlack -Ethan Klein is suing me???- Youtube video]\u003cbr>SeanDaBlack: Ethan’s trying to, uh, swing his dick around being like, uh-huh, I have so much money to spend. I have so much money to spend, right? He wants the back and forth. He wants me to be talking about this right now. And in his mind, he wants me to be scared. He wants me to be afraid.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So then I wrote a follow-up piece being like, Ethan Klein doesn’t deserve my apology. And fortunately, he did not sue SeanDaBlack.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like Sean, Kat saw Ethan’s threat of a lawsuit for what it really was. It’s a tactic called lawfare and it’s become increasingly common, especially in the influencer space. Let’s open another tab: the lawfare content economy. It’s interesting too, because there was nothing in your piece, your original piece, that he could sue you for.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, you’re a journalist, you are protected under free speech laws. But choosing to threaten a completely different, unrelated creator, SeanDaBlack, who has a significantly smaller following than him and presumably much fewer legal resources, also didn’t sit right with a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>A lot of online compared this case to a tactic called lawfare. Can you explain what that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yes. So, lawfare refers to a phenomenon where somebody launches a lawsuit, not because the case has an actual legal merit, but because they know it will cause so much harm to the defendant through legal costs and the pressure of being subjected to the legal system. It’s a term that has particularly grown popular due to Donald Trump’s habitual use of lawfare and other conservatives. We’ve seen this with Trump, we’ve seen this with Elon Musk. And we’re increasingly seeing it in the landscape of the internet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ethan Klein is not the first creator to sue his critics and I know that he will not be the last. We’re seeing it more and more and people online are even referring to it as lolfare in this context, like LOL fare, because not only are they seeing it as a way to harass a target through the legal system, but they’re also seeing it as a way for the plaintiff, the person bringing the lawsuit to be able to make content out of it. And oftentimes this content is very tongue-in-cheek because in Ethan Klein’s case, he says that these lawsuits have merit. He has held to that. He continues to say that these lawsuits have merit and that they are not law fair but at the exact same time, he’s also made them such a prominent topic on his podcast and on his live show that he’s reaping a lot of benefit from it, too. And a lot people in his audience and a lot the detractors of these women are really, really enjoying it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And lawfare also fuels an entire genre of YouTube content called LawTube. It started with the defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Lawyers built huge followings online by discussing widely publicized cases. Other content creators, who primarily covered pop culture and influencer drama, jumped in too. They weren’t legal experts, but they also built audiences and made money by covering high-profile cases. Now, whatever lawfare is used against other creators, it feeds this thriving ecosystem of reaction content, which can direct more harassment against victims of lawfare.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How does lawfare destabilize people who, you know, might be comfortable enough, but aren’t wealthy by any means?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong> One of the things that I think a lot of people don’t realize is just how expensive defending yourself legally is. Even if you ultimately win a case, it can still cost people tens of thousands of dollars just to file a motion to dismiss. So most lawyers charge, you know, hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour. So even if you don’t get to trial, you can still be looking at these just like staggering fees that could easily bankrupt the average person. Another aspect I think is just the emotional and mental toll it takes on people. Lawsuits are inherently really, really stressful. It involves so many filings, so much back and forth. And with every filing and every decision that a judge makes, it’s like resetting the clock on whether it’s gonna go your way or whether it won’t. So there are a lot of aspects that make lawfare not only one of the most, I would say, prominent modern harassment strategies but also something that can individually devastate people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>For Denims, this legal battle consumed most of the last year. It really affected her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>It is very stressful because I know that he has more money than me. He knows that he has more money than me. Everyone involved knows that he has significantly more money than me, so it’s like a very stressful process because so much of the legal system is based on how much you can pay for the best lawyers. So I think for a great period of time, I was incredibly stressed about financials or at least decently stressed about financials. But I think I’m just very lucky that I had a lot of people who supported me and I had lot of people who wanted to see me fight and who donated to my GoFundMe. And yeah, that was, I think the thing that was worse than the financial stuff was just like the time and the headache of… like, we could be spending this time productively. We could making content that’s fun, and instead we’re just sitting here talking to lawyers and prepping lawyer content and going to hearings or whatever. Like, it’s just…it was such a time sink. It still is sort of a time-sink.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And something you did say was that you weren’t going to settle. You weren’t gonna back down. What was motivating you through that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I don’t like bullies. I think bullies suck. And it’s sad because once upon a time, Ethan was the person that went after the bullies, I think, and he like defended against the bullys. And then he like, he became that which he sought to destroy. And I’m sorry, like on principle, it seems wrong to just fold over or like roll ove and die on that, like… It’s, okay, so I immediately fold, everyone, all of us settle and we just try to get out of this case as quickly as possible. What social precedent does that set? Not even like a legal precedent, what social precedent does it set that the second someone with more money than you tries to fight, everyone just rolls over and says, okay, well, I’m not gonna fight this. Well, I am not gonna to fight this. Like, it opens the door for him or anyone else to just be able to pursue, like, bullsh*t lawsuits against lots of other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so to recap, Ethan Klein, once hailed as “the fair use king,” took these three women creators to court for reacting to his content. Who won? And how will all of this impact the internet going forward? Let’s go back to Kat and open one more tab: the future of fair use and reaction content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s talk about the outcome of these lawsuits. What happened in each case?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So, Kaseytron, her case ended up being withdrawn. We can assume that there was a settlement in play. And the other thing about settlements is that typically they’re negotiated confidentially. So there’s no way to know what actually transpired in those closed-door negotiations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Following the end of that lawsuit, Kasey actually posted a public apology, which Ethan and Hila reacted to on the H3 Podcast stream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from H3 Podcast -Show #215]\u003cbr>Ethan Klein: We’ll watch it all together, and move on all together. \u003cbr>Hila Klein: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr>Kaseytron: I want to begin by stating I take responsibility for infringing the content nuke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>But Kaseytron, you know, hers ended earliest and she was able to move on, go back to her normal content and her normal streaming. Frogan is still fighting this lawsuit and she recently announced via a statement that she had hired Denims’ lawyers after her lawyers tried and failed to negotiate with Ethan over more than a year’s time. Her lawsuit temporarily entered like a default stage. But she has said in her statement that she will be moving forward. And then Denims actually won her lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The final ruling came out in July, and Denims was in the perfect place to celebrate her win.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not gonna lie, I happened to be in Vegas at the time and I hadn’t won any money in Vegas. I didn’t spend much, but I hadn’t t won anything. So it felt like I won. It felt like I won. There was something amazing about being in the middle of a casino and I get the news that I just won my case. And I’m like, oh my God, like I hit the jackpot, dude. I was so over the moon. I was so happy because I knew it was like a matter of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so let’s talk about her case. There are four factors that courts use to determine fair use. What is the purpose and character of using the copyrighted work? What is a nature of the copyrighted work? How much of it was used? Did the copyright holder lose money because their work was used?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And the only one that I didn’t win was simply the, I think it’s the second one that says that a work deserves copyright protections. So the judge said, hey, you know what? The content nuke has enough original things in it that it is considered not just a factual piece, but also a creative piece that deserves copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The first factor is the most important in these cases, ‘the purpose and character of using copyrighted work.’ And this is the biggest question in the debate over reaction content. Was this use transformative? In other words, did it add something new? In Denims’ case, the judge found that her reaction stream met three out of four fair use standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And all of the other factors, the judge ruled in my favor on those. So he said, yeah, the purpose and the character of the work is very different. And he proceeded to cite Ethan Klein’s original filing and Ethan Klein’s original statement that said, the purpose of her character is the complete opposite of my character. He also said that the other factors were in my favor that it’s hard to see a market replacement or a market substitution when the work is so different, when there’s so much reaction. But most importantly, he said that the work was transformative and that I did add more than enough substantial commentary, pauses, critiques for it to be considered fair use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And here’s where it gets really interesting. Remember back in 2017, when a judge ruled that Ethan and Hila’s reaction video was, in fact, fair use? That case, this legal precedence that the client set, came up a lot in the ruling for Denims’ case. Here’s Kat again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>I have the excerpt of the judge’s decision right in front of me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Please read dramatically. \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So there is one line in particular that says, ‘the undisputed purpose of defendant’s live stream is to contest, criticize, and mock plaintiff’s message, which the courts have found weighs in favor of fair use due to its transformative nature see Hoss versus Klein.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>And he kept citing t to say, no, you can use a lot of a work and it’s still fair use. No, you should be able to criticize the people. That’s the heart of fair use, to be able to criticize people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> That original case is actually cited a dozen times in the official judgment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>So as soon as this ruling and decision came out, critics of Ethan Klein were just like, ‘this is incredible. This is one of the most incredible turns that this could have taken.’ But it’s also not something people were super surprised by because from the very onset of these lawsuits, people pointed out how, again, hypocritical they found it that Ethan was suing someone over the very same cause of action that he had been sued for less than a decade prior. So them citing his own lawsuit win in his current lawsuit loss really was the cherry on top for people who had been arguing that these lawsuits were meritless the entire time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to filing the lawsuits against these three women, Ethan has also filed more lawsuits against more creators, and as the lawsuits pile up, more and more creators throughout the entire ecosystem have begun to speak out against Ethan Klein. People started to leave Ethan Klein’s fan base. There is like another subreddit that is former fans of Ethan Klein who have spoken out against these lawsuits. There’s been a ton of viral tweets, viral TikToks basically painting him as just this new villain of the YouTube landscape. And not everybody sees it that way, but enough people do that I think it really has changed his reputation for the worse. I think if you’re not an H3 fan and if you barely know who Ethan Klein is, you’re probably gonna know him because of all of these posts that have to do with him being someone who sues his critics and tries to sue them into silence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Some people might argue that everything that went down is just mindless internet drama that, I mean, like TikTok commentators like to constantly claim, it’s not that deep. But why does this matter for everyone? How does this ripple into every part of the internet?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say it really is that deep for a couple of reasons. One, social media and content creation is at the forefront of how we disseminate news and information today. Almost everyone is on social media, and increasingly, a majority of people get their news and information from content creators online. So having the freedom to speak your mind and analyze and, yes, react to other people’s content is really, really important in today’s modern world. And so the threat of lawsuits like this is something that I think could have a really negative effect on democracy, on free speech, and so on and so forth. So I think it really is that deep. And I think if people want to protect our access to information and our ability to have a voice and not be chilled into silence, then they should care about this because it could have major consequences beyond just this streaming community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Denims, being an Arab-American woman who talks about progressive politics on the internet, has a lot of haters. There are so many people, many of whom are men, who’ve grown their own following by clipping her content and bashing her on their channels. The scrutiny she already faced intensified over the last year because of this very public legal battle. But as annoying as these hate watchers are, Denims pointed out that her victory is also a win for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>The people who enjoy criticizing me, a ruling that was bad for me, would have been bad for them. I think until the filing became official, I think it was internet drama. And I think after the filing, it’s like, dog, this is like, this affects everything on the internet, everything. It impacts what kind of content is allowed on Twitter. It impacts what kind of contact is allowed on Reddit. It impacts the content on YouTube. Like, it impacts so much. And even if you don’t personally care for my content or my commentary or my political views, you should want your favorite content creator to be able to critique the people that they dislike or disagree with. It is important to have people be able speak on the issues they want to speak on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Ethan took to Instagram stories after the ruling came out. He wrote, I’m extremely confident that this will be overturned by the appellate courts and we will be proceeding with the appeal immediately. Close All Tabs reached out to his team for comment, but we have not received a response. Denims, meanwhile, posted her own update.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: Before we start, let me bring in our honored guest. You might have previously known him as “the fair use king. “\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She reaches off camera and pulls a tripod into the frame. On it is a mannequin head with a printed photo of Ethan Klein taped over it. It’s wearing a gold costume crown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Denims: And let me just…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She plucks off the crown and places it on her own head.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio from Denims Twitch video]\u003cbr>Denims: There we go. Much better.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, I think everybody called him “the fair use king” for such a long time. And I think the second you start suing other creators for doing the same thing that you got really big and popular for, I think you should lose the rights to that crown, the social rights to that crown. And I think you should give it to the person who’s actually trying to defend fair use. Because it’s not just fair use when it’s the people that you like. It’s not freedom of speech when it’s people saying things you like. It’s—it should also apply when people aren’t saying things that you like, when people are saying things that you dislike. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and if it’s too heavy for you, I will gladly take it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and edited by Chris Hambrick. Additional production support from Ana de Almeida Amaral. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, our intern Lauren Yoon, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. This episode features clips and archive tape from H3H3 Productions, the H3 Podcast, Leftovers, Kaseytron, Frogan, SeanDaBlack, and Denims. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denims: \u003c/strong>I will be continuing to fight. Ethan said he will be taking this to appeals. So I guess maybe in 18 months or whatever, when I win that, then I can give more updates then.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-pink-pill-pipeline-and-the-online-war-against-birth-control",
"title": "The Pink Pill Pipeline and the Online War Against Birth Control",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It starts with aspirational lifestyle content about “embracing your femininity,” but ends with alt-right ideology and conspiracy theories about reproductive care. This is the pink pill pipeline — one of the primary ways young women are radicalized online today. Seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture leads to increasingly conservative and extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis or how women don’t need to vote. It’s all wrapped up in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Reporter Kylie Cheung joins to discuss how seemingly apolitical content online is shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights through coordinated misinformation campaigns, and how to spot pink pill content for what it is.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5702825517\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://substack.com/@kylietcheung?utm_source=about-page\">Kylie Cheung\u003c/a>, staff reporter at \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/how-celebrity-smear-campaigns-are\">How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control\u003c/a> — Kylie Cheung, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/far-right-birth-control-conspiracy-theories/\">Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block\u003c/a> — Cassie Miller, \u003cem>Southern Poverty Law Center\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/princess-treatment-trend-conservative-pipeline\">We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline\u003c/a> — Jessica Valenti, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://emilyinyourphone.substack.com/p/i-caught-a-secret-right-wing-influence\">I Caught a Secret Right-Wing Influence Operation Running In My Feed\u003c/a> — Emily Amick, \u003cem>Emily In Your Phone\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://revealnews.org/podcast/the-long-campaign-to-turn-birth-control-into-the-new-abortion/\">The Long Campaign to Turn Birth Control Into the New Abortion\u003c/a> — Katharine Mieszkowski, \u003cem>Reveal\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/09/inside-anti-abortion-groups-campaign-to-sell-women-on-unreliable-birth-control-alternatives/\">Inside Anti-Abortion Groups’ Campaign to Sell Women on Unreliable Birth Control “Alternatives”\u003c/a> — Kiera Butler, \u003cem>Mother Jones\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2026/04/25/birth-control-maha-abortion-trump-00889738\">Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. \u003c/a>— Mary Ziegler, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2026/07/10/rfk-jr-pronatalism-birth-control/\">The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement\u003c/a> — Jessica Washington, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hello. Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends! Post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you’re starting arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re a young woman online, you may have seen posts from Evie Magazine. It has a chic millennial pink logo and taglines like “helping women harness their feminine energy.” Its website features glossy, aspirational photo shoots of women modeling gauzy dresses on the Mediterranean coast, women doing yoga in coordinated pastel workout sets, and women riding horseback through arid Southwestern grasslands. They’re paired with articles like, “What the It Girls Are Wearing in Italy This Summer,” and “Is Your Bra Making You Sick?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You probably would not suspect that there’s anything like, quote unquote “political” about this publication at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is Kylie Cheung, the staff reporter for the newsletter, Abortion, Every Day. She’s been covering reproductive health care and women’s rights for years, working at Jezebel and Salon. At first glance, Evie Magazine’s content doesn’t appear that different from the coverage of the publications where Kylie used to work. But push past the surface, and something else emerges. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You might see their presence on, say, Instagram if you like see a post about celebrity news, then you might follow them or you might go back to their website, and then slowly but surely start to see more content that’s really pushing motherhood, young motherhood, like anti-birth control messages. They describe themselves as like a magazine for celebrating true womanhood and femininity, and as we know all of that has increasingly become kind of this right-wing dog whistle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you dig a little deeper into Evie’s website, you’ll find articles on why Love Island actually makes a case against casual sex, how Netflix’s Little House on the Prairie is quote, “The Most Pro-American Show in Years,” and coverage of celebrities who’ve denounced birth control. In fact, Evie publishes at least one anti-birth control article per month, filled with of birth control causing strokes, depression, hormonal chaos, and… bisexuality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>That is such a good one. I remember in like 2022, I was reporting on this influx of TikToks about conspiracy theories that like, my birth control made me gay or this or that. And it’s just like, maybe you were, maybe you’re just gay, which is like, totally cool and everything. And then if something is seen as like unsafe or dangerous that contributes to… a consensus that there should be more restrictions or it should be harder to access, and that is ultimately a right-wing political goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Evie Magazine has been hailed as the “conservative Cosmo.” In addition to the digital and print content, Evie also hosts live events and sells raw milkmaid dresses — a play on the far-right raw milk craze and the cottagecore trend that dominated the early 2020s fashion cycle. Oh, and there’s Evie’s FemTech debut — a period-tracking app funded by Peter Thiel that promises to help women wean off of birth control in favor of “natural cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>If you just say we need to like ban birth control, that isn’t really on its face going to be a popular message, but colluding with kind of this whole “MAHA” and like alternative health scene of pushing for this idea that any amount of like quote unquote “chemicals” and putting this or that in your body, that that is kind of what you might see at a website. Like Evie, that claims to be like an apolitical female lifestyle brand that, you know, isn’t going to overtly say, “We think birth control should be banned,” but is going to kind of push these messages, really questioning and kind of contributing to like, lessening the popularity of birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the pink pill pipeline. This is the way young women are radicalized online — through seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture — which steers them toward influencers who assure them that giving up their career is an empowering choice… and that caring about politics is for the boys, anyway. And soon enough, extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis, or how women don’t need to vote, don’t feel extreme at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that content, of course, is wrapped in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Today, we’re exploring how seemingly apolitical content online is actually shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights — through coordinated misinformation campaigns and aspirational lifestyle posts. And let me tell you, it’s a lot easier to get sucked in than you might think. Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know how this goes. Let’s open our first tab. What is the pink pill pipeline? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think like, end of 2024, when we were seeing all of these conversations come up about how the quote unquote “Manosphere” helped Trump win the election by like, connecting with young men and how he’d gone on all of these like Manosphere-y podcasts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Logan Paul’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Biden is just so bad. He’s the worst president in the history of our country. You should make a diss track on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Theo Von’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Is cocaine a stronger, uh, up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie, you know what I’m saying? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Adin Ross’s stream from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Well, today is going to be the most important stream I’ve ever done. Right in the living room of Mar-a-Lago. And we’ll have a little fun today. Let’s do it. My son Barron says hello, but he’s a big fan of yours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of them, they’ll have interviewed or endorsed Trump, but they won’t call themselves political. It’s because they draw in and radicalize so many young men precisely by presenting as apolitical, where first, young men might be drawn to their content that’s dating advice, or stuff about MMA fighting, or any number of things that aren’t inherently political, but then just because of how algorithms work, or as you continue to watch their videos or content — eventually they just start saying pretty misogynistic or racist things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is an alt-right ideology known as the red pill: the belief that men are disadvantaged in modern society — and that it’s feminism’s fault. Taking the red pill is a nod to this scene in The Matrix — when Neo learns that his entire life is a simulation. Morpheus offers him a choice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of The Matrix from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Incels and self-described “men’s rights activists” have used the metaphor of the red pill to describe “waking up” to their victimhood and resisting “progressive” notions like… women having any agency at all. The manosphere calls for a return to the patriarchal glory of the past. Today, red-pilling is used to describe the way people are radicalized into far-right ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Manosphere content can be wildly misogynistic — but the way young men fall into these online circles is through lifestyle content that appears apolitical: weightlifting, dating advice, style tips. The pink pill pipeline is the other side of this coin. The phrase was coined by journalist Lois Shearing. Her 2025 book, “Pink-pilled,” examines how women are lured into far-right ideology. Just like with red-pilling, pink-pilling also starts with seemingly apolitical lifestyle content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of these creators or influencers will not overtly identify as Republican agents. They will, in fact, probably reel in young women through content or short-form videos where they talk about celebrity gossip, or maybe they’ll talk about health advice, and eventually get to disparaging and pushing misinformation about birth control. If you’re a young woman and you hate your job, they might give you advice about how to start dating like, a rich man and how you can achieve something akin to like a tradwife lifestyle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We talked about tradwives in our episode on Mormon momfluencers. They’re women who’ve rejected a modern career path and rely on their husbands to be the breadwinners. Tradwives are supposed to manage the household, do all the chores, take care of the kids, and lead their family’s return to traditional gender roles. Hence, tradwife. Tradwife content was pretty trendy for a while. Videos of baking bread from scratch, homeschooling children, and performing motherhood. But, as it turns out, being a stay-at-home mom, taking care of an entire family on a single income, is not glamorous — it’s hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As more horror stories have emerged about the economic precarity of this reality, the tradwife lifestyle has started to lose its appeal. In fact, the most prominent pink pill figures have shifted their messaging away from promoting the tradwife lifestyle — because they know it’s unpopular. Like Emma Waters. She’s a researcher for the Heritage Foundation, the far-right think tank behind Project 2025. Emma Waters has been promoting a middle ground between tradwives and girlboss feminists. But still promoting motherhood above all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emma Waters for Fox News from TikTok]: \u003c/strong>How can we structure what career success and the career trajectory of mothers looks like first, and then build in our career and education to complement that? So maybe women won’t work full-time. About 60% of women say that they would actually prefer to be a homemaker. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that kind of rhetoric is still divisive. It’s certainly not the soft on-ramp to conservative ideology that lifestyle content is. Celebrity news, for one, is a much more palatable entry point. Take Candace Owens, the far-right political commentator, podcaster, and conspiracy theorist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason why Candace Owens has her own news platform that’s dedicated to celebrity news when she is like, a politics person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Candace Owens from TikTok] \u003c/strong>Personally, I’m starting to wonder if Cynthia is about to steal Ariana from Ethan Slater, which would be some great justice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Where you can reel someone in with your cultural takes and eventually build like, this cultural consensus to like a right-wing agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pink pill pipeline often starts with dating advice. It’s very aspirational. Other young women showing off their luxurious lifestyles paid for by their boyfriends or husbands. You’ll hear buzzwords like “soft life” and “feminine energy” and “princess treatment.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Earth Angel Ariana]: \u003c/strong>I used to be a tomboy and play basketball, tackle football, and now I just feel like a princess wifey. I just feel like life is so soft and feminine, like men do everything for me. My boyfriend gives me princess treatment all the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Laila Hakim]:\u003c/strong> Your man should wanna not only take care of you, but those around you, too. And he’s gonna do without hesitation. That man gets up so fucking fast, like, you won’t even be able to blink before he’s up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Andele Lara]:\u003c/strong> Girl, I’m in Chicago with my man, and I didn’t book a flight, hotel, or schedule anything. Because a real provider is always going to make time for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you’re a young woman, who’s been grinding in your career and still struggling to make ends meet — much less afford any of these luxuries — and on top of that, dating sucks… then this kind of content is alluring. It’s very easy to get sucked in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that the success of these different buzzwords and seemingly apolitical trends is that, you know, they spring from these very specific and very real frustrations. A lot of us were just like, set up to be screwed over by the economy as it exists. And I think that in traditional American politics, you hear all the time about frustrated working class men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then, I think there is a lot of frustration among the demographic of young women who are also just very exploited as workers and really getting the short end of the stick economically. So that tends to then be catered to in a different way of this content that’s geared toward like, “You could have an amazing life if you just quit your terrible job. Um, your job mistreats and exploits you and all of this is exploitation. And it would actually be empowering if you just quit and married someone and had kids and took care of your kids.” And like, there is a real appeal there. If you hate your job, or if you’re struggling and you’re frustrated in that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The word “empowering” is used a lot in pink pill content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>A lot of these female lifestyle influencers who might not present as anti-feminist, they really will like, couch their specific choices in this performatively feminist language. You could even just see this with something slightly unrelated, but also very related of like vaccine skepticism. It’s like so couched in like, my body, my choice language. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On its face, aspirational dating content doesn’t seem to be anti-feminist or regressive, especially when compared to the overt tradwife videos. But it also opens the door for a quieter, more insidious erosion of women’s agency and relationships. There is this Mormon influencer, Courtney Palmer, who went mega-viral last year for her videos on how to get the “princess treatment.” She talks about how her husband always opens the door for her, and how she rarely ties her own shoes because her husband will do it for her. And how do you secure the so-called provider? Well, Courtney has some advice: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>I’m at a restaurant with my husband, I do not talk to the hostess, I do not open any doors, and I do not order my own food. You’re just letting your husband lead and be masculine. He made the reservation, let him do the logistics, you’re just being a princess. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This messaging is particularly effective on young women, because it’s coming from their peers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>They’re not like, Ted Cruz. They’re not like, you know, these Republican politicians. They’re, like, female lifestyle influencers, they’re young women. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>If the waiter addresses you first, I will simply just look at my husband and my husband will order. You don’t need to over speak, over exert yourself. You can be feminine and soft and quiet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So to recap, here’s how the pink pill pipeline works: you’re a woman in your 20s — you might stumble across a post on Instagram about why Zendaya wants to be a mother. Celebrity news and pop culture is eye-catching. You follow the account. Then, you go on TikTok and see a video from a woman whose life seems so much easier and so much more luxurious than yours. Her fiance pays for everything. She doesn’t have to lift a finger. Who wouldn’t want that? You’re trying to be more active, so you go on YouTube and look up instructional videos for pilates at home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, your social media algorithms start feeding you more content — based on what you’ve already engaged with. More about the soft life. More tips for finding a provider boyfriend. YouTube shorts about the values of young motherhood. Instagram reels about holistic health, and clean living, and detoxifying your diet — which will make you hotter and increase your chances of finding a provider boyfriend. TikToks about why your birth control might be making you sick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There are people who aren’t kind of traditionally associated with going after reproductive rights or going after women’s rights. It looks a lot more organic if they’re just seemingly naturally talking about the connections between like, birth control causing infertility, which is not true and is not backed up by anything. And that’s supposedly meaning, giving way to like, the quote unquote, like, “IVF industry” of like, of now that so many women lost their fertility from using birth control, they now need IVF. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Wait, what? Once you’re sucked into the pink pill pipeline, this conspiracy is everywhere. We’re going to get into that in a new tab — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay. After the break, the link between the pink pill, misinformation, and the war on birth control. Stick around. Let’s open a new tab: does birth control make you infertile? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Ugh, I mean no, there’s just like, no… evidence of this whatsoever. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On the internet, there’s this pervasive conspiracy theory that long-term hormonal birth control use leads to infertility, which is somehow funding the modern IVF industry. Like Kylie said, there is zero clinical evidence of this. This is a pretty extreme conspiracy theory, but anti-birth control content is on the rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A 2025 study, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, analyzed 100 of the top TikTok videos related to contraception, between August and September 2023. The videos had a collective 4.85 billion views — they were brimming with misinformation about hormonal birth control. Over half of the videos explicitly rejected hormonal birth control, and over a third of the videos recommended natural cycle tracking, without disclosing the limits of it. Only 10% of the videos were created by medical professionals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This stuff is everywhere online. Here’s what the conversation around birth control looks like right now — and this is on mainstream social media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Casiah West]: \u003c/strong>Your gynecologist isn’t really telling you how bad birth control is. What’s ironic is, the leading cause of death in women is heart disease. Is it that women are dying from heart disease because of birth control? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user The Workout Witch]:\u003c/strong> Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your body, specifically for your body’s biological stress response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Whatever Pod from TikTok]:\u003c/strong> If you actually look at the birth control usage rates and divorce rates, they actually perfectly coincide with like a three-year delay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Jay Shetty]:\u003c/strong> So we’re changing the hormone balance in women in a way that may not be completely reversible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]:\u003c/strong> Girls that I know who had like the implant in their arm or who have been on the pill for over 10 years cannot get pregnant. Almost like that was the entire point and plan in the first place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>These sensational claims flatten a reality that is complex and nuanced. It’s true that people have wildly different experiences with birth control. Many women have been dismissed, mistreated, and discriminated against by the medical system. Medical misogyny is real, and the history of birth control is steeped in it. The pill was tested on Puerto Rican women, and doctors did dismiss reports of side effects as “psychosomatic.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, a lot of women are still not offered adequate pain management for IUD insertions. There’s no “one-size-fits-all” birth control option, so figuring out what actually works for your body can take a bit of trial and error, which can be especially discouraging when your doctors aren’t listening. I, myself, have had mixed experiences with birth control. Kylie has too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that you’d be hard-pressed to talk to any woman or any person who uses or has used at different points hormonal birth control, and hear that they had an absolutely flawless, perfect, pain-free experience. Their bodies might not react that well to like, hormonal-birth control pills or any number of different methods. And I think that that is all incredibly valid and can’t be, you know, pushed under the rug. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are just a lot of… difficult realities with our healthcare system, how our medical system treats the experiences and bodies of women or people who use birth control. I think that what you’ll kind of see on social media are kind of these narratives that really tend to flatten that, or just capitalize on the fact that we have these negative experiences to push these different messages about the safety, or effectiveness of birth control, even though… you know, medically speaking, birth control is very safe and very effective. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s just that we, as different people with different bodies will have different experiences with it. But I think that, you know, that there’s no room for that kind of nuance in like the kinds of social media posts, and what ends up happening is that like, a lot of storytelling can be taken out of context and then fed into like this right-wing political agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The existing negative experiences that many people have had with reproductive health care means that the cultural discourse is primed to be co-opted by far-right political movements. Like pink-pill dating advice, there are certain buzzwords that raise red flags for Kylie — especially words like “natural” and “cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cycle tracking is a perfectly valid form of contraception. Lots of people can’t take hormonal birth control for health reasons and have successfully relied on cycle tracking. But when influencers disparage other forms of contraception and insist on the “natural element” without disclosing that it’s one of the least effective forms of birth control? Red flags. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>What we have is this very, very regressive agenda, but really packaged in kind of this feminist way. And like, if you really, if you like, squint or if you aren’t that educated in these issues yourself, like, sure, it might even sound like it makes sense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s only in the last few years that anti-birth control sentiments have gained so much momentum. We need to talk about when this uptick started. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I really started noticing and reporting on it specifically around like, 2022, which coincidentally, you know, was the year that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With Roe v. Wade overturned, many far-right religious groups and anti-abortion organizations have a new mission: to make birth control the new abortion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dasha Burns for NBC News from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>In the months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Maggie Olivia went to the pharmacy to pick up her birth control prescription. The pharmacists denied her prescription because they were unsure if it was legal, which it was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s open one more tab: the war on birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Make America Healthy Again — this is the Trump administration’s health initiative, spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., U.S. Health Secretary and notorious anti-vaxxer. The “MAHA” movement is fueled by skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. Practices and medications under scrutiny include: childhood vaccine schedules, Tylenol during pregnancy, antidepressants, ADHD drugs. And now, hormonal birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Amna Nawaz for PBS News Hour]: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Trump administration scrubbed CDC guidance on birth control from government websites and froze $65 million in funding to family planning clinics that provide free or low-cost contraception. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Department of Health and Human Services just overhauled Title X (ten). This is a federal grant program originally designed to help low-income Americans access birth control and other reproductive health care. Kylie said this program has always had bipartisan support, going all the way back to when Nixon signed it into law, over 50 years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now, according to a funding notice published at the beginning of July, grants funded through the program will, quote, “build body literacy, address infertility, plan and space pregnancies, and navigate reproductive health conditions such as endometriosis.” Contraception is not mentioned, except in a section about “over-medicalization.” Clinics that receive Title X (ten) funding are instructed to promote fertility awareness-based methods — like, natural cycle tracking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Some really concerning things have been like, the State Department equating certain forms of birth control and labeling them as abortifacient — and we’ve seen that a couple of times coming directly from this administration, and the goal then being to ban certain birth control or birth control more broadly, in the same way that abortion is banned. We’ve also seen the defunding of Planned Parenthood where like, what the language of that is is to suggest that reproductive healthcare and like, the provision of contraceptives and such isn’t actually health care — is kind of like the language. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Conservatives were not always this critical of birth control. In fact, many were pro-birth control. Back in 2015, Republicans actually introduced a bill to make it even more accessible — by incentivizing drug companies to sell over-the-counter birth control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there just has been this very sharp right-wing cultural pivot where a lot of this deeply pro-natalist language of human civilization and white Western society is in serious trouble if we don’t have a lot more babies really quick, like a lot of the Elon Musk rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Pro-natalism is an ideology that pushes for higher birth rates to combat the supposed “decline of civilization.” Anything that causes people to have more babies is on the table. Can you explain the link between this pro-natalist fear-mongering around falling birth rates and then white supremacist conspiracy theories? What is the great replacement theory that everyone’s freaking out about? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there is just this inherent link between, you know, panics about the birth rate and racial panics, even though obviously, you know sometimes it’ll be couched in this race-neutral language of just like the human race and declining birth rates there, or the fact that like abortion bans or denying people birth control access will affect people of all races and people of all races might then be forced to like move forward with a pregnancy they don’t want or whatnot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>It’s impossible to separate this panic from its racist roots. It started with fears of declining birth rates among white women. Kylie said the decline isn’t statistically significant. Experts say it’s likely due to declining teen pregnancy rates. But some extremists on the right claim that birth control is used to suppress white birth rates, in an attempt to replace white Americans as the racial majority. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There is just this deep tie between pronatalism and white nationalism in that way, just specifically because of how much white nationalism has like embraced pronatalism for its agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In 2022, just months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, UC Berkeley, Mother Jones, and Reveal teamed up for a massive reporting project. They uncovered a years-long social media campaign from anti-abortion groups — to capitalize on wellness trends, promote cycle tracking, and sow distrust in hormonal birth control. Conservative influencers have continued to push birth control skepticism online— often citing outdated or inconclusive research studies to back up their claims. Birth control misinformation continues to thrive on social media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]: \u003c/strong>Does anybody else find it just a teensy bit coincidental that they pushed birth control on Millennial and Gen Z teenagers so heavily and so early? And now, look at how booming IVF is? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That video has nearly identical wording to countless others. This year, political analyst Emily Amick published a three-part Substack series on the influencer campaign against birth control. She found dozens of Instagram posts from various lifestyle influencers that all had the same caption. They all said, and I quote, “I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the birth control pill was given out like candy to every female millennial at age 15. And now IVF is a $50 billion industry.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Abortion is very politically popular, and so I think even now it’s very interesting that you’ll see the Trump administration has refrained from taking certain moves to directly go after abortion, but has taken all of these many different moves to go after birth control and family planning. And I’ve read certain legal experts suspect as well, is that birth control in some ways is more vulnerable — because it’s increasingly less popular because of how much misinformation there is about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Over the last four years, there have been anecdotal reports of young women who’ve discontinued hormonal birth control because of what they see online. This is backed up by a 2024 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation. 49% of women between 18 and 25 have been served content about birth control on social media. 14% said they made a change to their birth control method or considered a change because of something they heard online. Kylie said, it’ll be decades until we understand the long-term effects of the online campaign against birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s easy to dismiss lifestyle content as frivolous and inconsequential. You might see a TikTok from a woman who brags about how her boyfriend pays all of their bills, and think… “It’s not that deep.” You might come across an influencer who questions the safety of IUDs and promotes natural cycle tracking — and it’s tempting to think… “That’s just her choice!” But the pink pill pipeline is real. Content targeted at women is rapidly becoming a vehicle for extremist ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since Trump’s re-election, concerns about the manosphere have dominated the political conversation. For all of the hand-wringing about bro-y podcasts radicalizing young men, there’s very little discussion about the young women buying into their own oppression. Content aimed at girls is just not taken seriously. That’s part of what makes the pink pill pipeline so effective. It’s the lack of awareness. There’s a political undercurrent to all of these girlish lifestyle videos, but it’s very easy to miss if you’re not already looking for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now, you know what to look for. Before you like a video, or follow an influencer, it’s worth taking a moment to really consider the agenda behind this content. Are they sharing a personal experience with one specific type of birth control? Or are they insisting that all birth control is bad — and that only the method they recommend is natural and healthy? Sure, the romantic date night content is cute, but… is the person posting it also telling you that you need to make yourself quiet and submissive if you want to find a man who’ll pick up the check? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The point is, you don’t have to engage with this content. But, if it comes across your feed, you should be ready to see it for what it is — and then you can keep scrolling. That’s it for our deep dive — but as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to go further down this rabbit hole, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. Until next week, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips and archive tape from Impaulsive, This Past Weekend with Theo Von, Adin Ross, The Matrix, Fox News, NBC News, PBS Newshour, and TikTok creators @earthangelariana, @ulovelailahakim, @theandelelara, Courtney Palmer, @casiahwest, @theworkoutwitch, @whateverpod, @jayshetty, and @prettypolitics101. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Yeah! Oh my God, now that I’m remembering it, I mean like in 2022, there was just like a viral moment of like a lot of different people theorizing that like, birth control makes you gay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I saw your “birth control makes people a lesbian rumor” piece and I was like, “That’s crazy,” because every lesbian I know says the complete opposite, that they went off the pill and they were like, “I don’t even like men.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>So fair, yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It starts with aspirational lifestyle content about “embracing your femininity,” but ends with alt-right ideology and conspiracy theories about reproductive care. This is the pink pill pipeline — one of the primary ways young women are radicalized online today. Seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture leads to increasingly conservative and extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis or how women don’t need to vote. It’s all wrapped up in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Reporter Kylie Cheung joins to discuss how seemingly apolitical content online is shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights through coordinated misinformation campaigns, and how to spot pink pill content for what it is.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It starts with aspirational lifestyle content about “embracing your femininity,” but ends with alt-right ideology and conspiracy theories about reproductive care. This is the pink pill pipeline — one of the primary ways young women are radicalized online today. Seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture leads to increasingly conservative and extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis or how women don’t need to vote. It’s all wrapped up in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Reporter Kylie Cheung joins to discuss how seemingly apolitical content online is shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights through coordinated misinformation campaigns, and how to spot pink pill content for what it is.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://substack.com/@kylietcheung?utm_source=about-page\">Kylie Cheung\u003c/a>, staff reporter at \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://substack.com/@kylietcheung?utm_source=about-page\">Kylie Cheung\u003c/a>, staff reporter at \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control — Kylie Cheung, Abortion, Every Day",
"Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block — Cassie Miller, Southern Poverty Law Center",
"We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline — Jessica Valenti, Abortion, Every Day",
"I Caught a Secret Right-Wing Influence Operation Running In My Feed — Emily Amick, Emily In Your Phone",
"The Long Campaign to Turn Birth Control Into the New Abortion — Katharine Mieszkowski, Reveal",
"Inside Anti-Abortion Groups’ Campaign to Sell Women on Unreliable Birth Control “Alternatives” — Kiera Butler, Mother Jones",
"Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. — Mary Ziegler, Politico",
"The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement — Jessica Washington, The Intercept"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/how-celebrity-smear-campaigns-are\">How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control\u003c/a> — Kylie Cheung, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/how-celebrity-smear-campaigns-are\">How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control\u003c/a> — Kylie Cheung, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/far-right-birth-control-conspiracy-theories/\">Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block\u003c/a> — Cassie Miller, \u003cem>Southern Poverty Law Center\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/far-right-birth-control-conspiracy-theories/\">Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block\u003c/a> — Cassie Miller, \u003cem>Southern Poverty Law Center\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/princess-treatment-trend-conservative-pipeline\">We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline\u003c/a> — Jessica Valenti, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/princess-treatment-trend-conservative-pipeline\">We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline\u003c/a> — Jessica Valenti, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://emilyinyourphone.substack.com/p/i-caught-a-secret-right-wing-influence\">I Caught a Secret Right-Wing Influence Operation Running In My Feed\u003c/a> — Emily Amick, \u003cem>Emily In Your Phone\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://revealnews.org/podcast/the-long-campaign-to-turn-birth-control-into-the-new-abortion/\">The Long Campaign to Turn Birth Control Into the New Abortion\u003c/a> — Katharine Mieszkowski, \u003cem>Reveal\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/09/inside-anti-abortion-groups-campaign-to-sell-women-on-unreliable-birth-control-alternatives/\">Inside Anti-Abortion Groups’ Campaign to Sell Women on Unreliable Birth Control “Alternatives”\u003c/a> — Kiera Butler, \u003cem>Mother Jones\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2026/04/25/birth-control-maha-abortion-trump-00889738\">Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. \u003c/a>— Mary Ziegler, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2026/04/25/birth-control-maha-abortion-trump-00889738\">Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. \u003c/a>— Mary Ziegler, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2026/07/10/rfk-jr-pronatalism-birth-control/\">The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement\u003c/a> — Jessica Washington, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hello. Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends! Post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you’re starting arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hello. Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends! Post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you’re starting arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you’re a young woman online, you may have seen posts from Evie Magazine. It has a chic millennial pink logo and taglines like “helping women harness their feminine energy.” Its website features glossy, aspirational photo shoots of women modeling gauzy dresses on the Mediterranean coast, women doing yoga in coordinated pastel workout sets, and women riding horseback through arid Southwestern grasslands. They’re paired with articles like, “What the It Girls Are Wearing in Italy This Summer,” and “Is Your Bra Making You Sick?” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you’re a young woman online, you may have seen posts from Evie Magazine. It has a chic millennial pink logo and taglines like “helping women harness their feminine energy.” Its website features glossy, aspirational photo shoots of women modeling gauzy dresses on the Mediterranean coast, women doing yoga in coordinated pastel workout sets, and women riding horseback through arid Southwestern grasslands. They’re paired with articles like, “What the It Girls Are Wearing in Italy This Summer,” and “Is Your Bra Making You Sick?” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You probably would not suspect that there’s anything like, quote unquote “political” about this publication at all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You probably would not suspect that there’s anything like, quote unquote “political” about this publication at all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is Kylie Cheung, the staff reporter for the newsletter, Abortion, Every Day. She’s been covering reproductive health care and women’s rights for years, working at Jezebel and Salon. At first glance, Evie Magazine’s content doesn’t appear that different from the coverage of the publications where Kylie used to work. But push past the surface, and something else emerges. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is Kylie Cheung, the staff reporter for the newsletter, Abortion, Every Day. She’s been covering reproductive health care and women’s rights for years, working at Jezebel and Salon. At first glance, Evie Magazine’s content doesn’t appear that different from the coverage of the publications where Kylie used to work. But push past the surface, and something else emerges. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You might see their presence on, say, Instagram if you like see a post about celebrity news, then you might follow them or you might go back to their website, and then slowly but surely start to see more content that’s really pushing motherhood, young motherhood, like anti-birth control messages. They describe themselves as like a magazine for celebrating true womanhood and femininity, and as we know all of that has increasingly become kind of this right-wing dog whistle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You might see their presence on, say, Instagram if you like see a post about celebrity news, then you might follow them or you might go back to their website, and then slowly but surely start to see more content that’s really pushing motherhood, young motherhood, like anti-birth control messages. They describe themselves as like a magazine for celebrating true womanhood and femininity, and as we know all of that has increasingly become kind of this right-wing dog whistle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you dig a little deeper into Evie’s website, you’ll find articles on why Love Island actually makes a case against casual sex, how Netflix’s Little House on the Prairie is quote, “The Most Pro-American Show in Years,” and coverage of celebrities who’ve denounced birth control. In fact, Evie publishes at least one anti-birth control article per month, filled with of birth control causing strokes, depression, hormonal chaos, and… bisexuality?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you dig a little deeper into Evie’s website, you’ll find articles on why Love Island actually makes a case against casual sex, how Netflix’s Little House on the Prairie is quote, “The Most Pro-American Show in Years,” and coverage of celebrities who’ve denounced birth control. In fact, Evie publishes at least one anti-birth control article per month, filled with of birth control causing strokes, depression, hormonal chaos, and… bisexuality?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>That is such a good one. I remember in like 2022, I was reporting on this influx of TikToks about conspiracy theories that like, my birth control made me gay or this or that. And it’s just like, maybe you were, maybe you’re just gay, which is like, totally cool and everything. And then if something is seen as like unsafe or dangerous that contributes to… a consensus that there should be more restrictions or it should be harder to access, and that is ultimately a right-wing political goal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>That is such a good one. I remember in like 2022, I was reporting on this influx of TikToks about conspiracy theories that like, my birth control made me gay or this or that. And it’s just like, maybe you were, maybe you’re just gay, which is like, totally cool and everything. And then if something is seen as like unsafe or dangerous that contributes to… a consensus that there should be more restrictions or it should be harder to access, and that is ultimately a right-wing political goal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Evie Magazine has been hailed as the “conservative Cosmo.” In addition to the digital and print content, Evie also hosts live events and sells raw milkmaid dresses — a play on the far-right raw milk craze and the cottagecore trend that dominated the early 2020s fashion cycle. Oh, and there’s Evie’s FemTech debut — a period-tracking app funded by Peter Thiel that promises to help women wean off of birth control in favor of “natural cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Evie Magazine has been hailed as the “conservative Cosmo.” In addition to the digital and print content, Evie also hosts live events and sells raw milkmaid dresses — a play on the far-right raw milk craze and the cottagecore trend that dominated the early 2020s fashion cycle. Oh, and there’s Evie’s FemTech debut — a period-tracking app funded by Peter Thiel that promises to help women wean off of birth control in favor of “natural cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>If you just say we need to like ban birth control, that isn’t really on its face going to be a popular message, but colluding with kind of this whole “MAHA” and like alternative health scene of pushing for this idea that any amount of like quote unquote “chemicals” and putting this or that in your body, that that is kind of what you might see at a website. Like Evie, that claims to be like an apolitical female lifestyle brand that, you know, isn’t going to overtly say, “We think birth control should be banned,” but is going to kind of push these messages, really questioning and kind of contributing to like, lessening the popularity of birth control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>If you just say we need to like ban birth control, that isn’t really on its face going to be a popular message, but colluding with kind of this whole “MAHA” and like alternative health scene of pushing for this idea that any amount of like quote unquote “chemicals” and putting this or that in your body, that that is kind of what you might see at a website. Like Evie, that claims to be like an apolitical female lifestyle brand that, you know, isn’t going to overtly say, “We think birth control should be banned,” but is going to kind of push these messages, really questioning and kind of contributing to like, lessening the popularity of birth control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the pink pill pipeline. This is the way young women are radicalized online — through seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture — which steers them toward influencers who assure them that giving up their career is an empowering choice… and that caring about politics is for the boys, anyway. And soon enough, extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis, or how women don’t need to vote, don’t feel extreme at all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the pink pill pipeline. This is the way young women are radicalized online — through seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture — which steers them toward influencers who assure them that giving up their career is an empowering choice… and that caring about politics is for the boys, anyway. And soon enough, extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis, or how women don’t need to vote, don’t feel extreme at all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that content, of course, is wrapped in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Today, we’re exploring how seemingly apolitical content online is actually shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights — through coordinated misinformation campaigns and aspirational lifestyle posts. And let me tell you, it’s a lot easier to get sucked in than you might think. Ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that content, of course, is wrapped in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Today, we’re exploring how seemingly apolitical content online is actually shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights — through coordinated misinformation campaigns and aspirational lifestyle posts. And let me tell you, it’s a lot easier to get sucked in than you might think. Ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know how this goes. Let’s open our first tab. What is the pink pill pipeline? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know how this goes. Let’s open our first tab. What is the pink pill pipeline? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think like, end of 2024, when we were seeing all of these conversations come up about how the quote unquote “Manosphere” helped Trump win the election by like, connecting with young men and how he’d gone on all of these like Manosphere-y podcasts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think like, end of 2024, when we were seeing all of these conversations come up about how the quote unquote “Manosphere” helped Trump win the election by like, connecting with young men and how he’d gone on all of these like Manosphere-y podcasts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Logan Paul’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Biden is just so bad. He’s the worst president in the history of our country. You should make a diss track on him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Logan Paul’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Biden is just so bad. He’s the worst president in the history of our country. You should make a diss track on him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Theo Von’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Is cocaine a stronger, uh, up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie, you know what I’m saying? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Theo Von’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Is cocaine a stronger, uh, up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie, you know what I’m saying? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Adin Ross’s stream from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Well, today is going to be the most important stream I’ve ever done. Right in the living room of Mar-a-Lago. And we’ll have a little fun today. Let’s do it. My son Barron says hello, but he’s a big fan of yours. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Adin Ross’s stream from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Well, today is going to be the most important stream I’ve ever done. Right in the living room of Mar-a-Lago. And we’ll have a little fun today. Let’s do it. My son Barron says hello, but he’s a big fan of yours. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of them, they’ll have interviewed or endorsed Trump, but they won’t call themselves political. It’s because they draw in and radicalize so many young men precisely by presenting as apolitical, where first, young men might be drawn to their content that’s dating advice, or stuff about MMA fighting, or any number of things that aren’t inherently political, but then just because of how algorithms work, or as you continue to watch their videos or content — eventually they just start saying pretty misogynistic or racist things. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of them, they’ll have interviewed or endorsed Trump, but they won’t call themselves political. It’s because they draw in and radicalize so many young men precisely by presenting as apolitical, where first, young men might be drawn to their content that’s dating advice, or stuff about MMA fighting, or any number of things that aren’t inherently political, but then just because of how algorithms work, or as you continue to watch their videos or content — eventually they just start saying pretty misogynistic or racist things. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is an alt-right ideology known as the red pill: the belief that men are disadvantaged in modern society — and that it’s feminism’s fault. Taking the red pill is a nod to this scene in The Matrix — when Neo learns that his entire life is a simulation. Morpheus offers him a choice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is an alt-right ideology known as the red pill: the belief that men are disadvantaged in modern society — and that it’s feminism’s fault. Taking the red pill is a nod to this scene in The Matrix — when Neo learns that his entire life is a simulation. Morpheus offers him a choice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of The Matrix from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of The Matrix from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Incels and self-described “men’s rights activists” have used the metaphor of the red pill to describe “waking up” to their victimhood and resisting “progressive” notions like… women having any agency at all. The manosphere calls for a return to the patriarchal glory of the past. Today, red-pilling is used to describe the way people are radicalized into far-right ideology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Incels and self-described “men’s rights activists” have used the metaphor of the red pill to describe “waking up” to their victimhood and resisting “progressive” notions like… women having any agency at all. The manosphere calls for a return to the patriarchal glory of the past. Today, red-pilling is used to describe the way people are radicalized into far-right ideology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Manosphere content can be wildly misogynistic — but the way young men fall into these online circles is through lifestyle content that appears apolitical: weightlifting, dating advice, style tips. The pink pill pipeline is the other side of this coin. The phrase was coined by journalist Lois Shearing. Her 2025 book, “Pink-pilled,” examines how women are lured into far-right ideology. Just like with red-pilling, pink-pilling also starts with seemingly apolitical lifestyle content. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Manosphere content can be wildly misogynistic — but the way young men fall into these online circles is through lifestyle content that appears apolitical: weightlifting, dating advice, style tips. The pink pill pipeline is the other side of this coin. The phrase was coined by journalist Lois Shearing. Her 2025 book, “Pink-pilled,” examines how women are lured into far-right ideology. Just like with red-pilling, pink-pilling also starts with seemingly apolitical lifestyle content. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of these creators or influencers will not overtly identify as Republican agents. They will, in fact, probably reel in young women through content or short-form videos where they talk about celebrity gossip, or maybe they’ll talk about health advice, and eventually get to disparaging and pushing misinformation about birth control. If you’re a young woman and you hate your job, they might give you advice about how to start dating like, a rich man and how you can achieve something akin to like a tradwife lifestyle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of these creators or influencers will not overtly identify as Republican agents. They will, in fact, probably reel in young women through content or short-form videos where they talk about celebrity gossip, or maybe they’ll talk about health advice, and eventually get to disparaging and pushing misinformation about birth control. If you’re a young woman and you hate your job, they might give you advice about how to start dating like, a rich man and how you can achieve something akin to like a tradwife lifestyle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We talked about tradwives in our episode on Mormon momfluencers. They’re women who’ve rejected a modern career path and rely on their husbands to be the breadwinners. Tradwives are supposed to manage the household, do all the chores, take care of the kids, and lead their family’s return to traditional gender roles. Hence, tradwife. Tradwife content was pretty trendy for a while. Videos of baking bread from scratch, homeschooling children, and performing motherhood. But, as it turns out, being a stay-at-home mom, taking care of an entire family on a single income, is not glamorous — it’s hard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We talked about tradwives in our episode on Mormon momfluencers. They’re women who’ve rejected a modern career path and rely on their husbands to be the breadwinners. Tradwives are supposed to manage the household, do all the chores, take care of the kids, and lead their family’s return to traditional gender roles. Hence, tradwife. Tradwife content was pretty trendy for a while. Videos of baking bread from scratch, homeschooling children, and performing motherhood. But, as it turns out, being a stay-at-home mom, taking care of an entire family on a single income, is not glamorous — it’s hard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As more horror stories have emerged about the economic precarity of this reality, the tradwife lifestyle has started to lose its appeal. In fact, the most prominent pink pill figures have shifted their messaging away from promoting the tradwife lifestyle — because they know it’s unpopular. Like Emma Waters. She’s a researcher for the Heritage Foundation, the far-right think tank behind Project 2025. Emma Waters has been promoting a middle ground between tradwives and girlboss feminists. But still promoting motherhood above all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As more horror stories have emerged about the economic precarity of this reality, the tradwife lifestyle has started to lose its appeal. In fact, the most prominent pink pill figures have shifted their messaging away from promoting the tradwife lifestyle — because they know it’s unpopular. Like Emma Waters. She’s a researcher for the Heritage Foundation, the far-right think tank behind Project 2025. Emma Waters has been promoting a middle ground between tradwives and girlboss feminists. But still promoting motherhood above all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emma Waters for Fox News from TikTok]: \u003c/strong>How can we structure what career success and the career trajectory of mothers looks like first, and then build in our career and education to complement that? So maybe women won’t work full-time. About 60% of women say that they would actually prefer to be a homemaker. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emma Waters for Fox News from TikTok]: \u003c/strong>How can we structure what career success and the career trajectory of mothers looks like first, and then build in our career and education to complement that? So maybe women won’t work full-time. About 60% of women say that they would actually prefer to be a homemaker. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that kind of rhetoric is still divisive. It’s certainly not the soft on-ramp to conservative ideology that lifestyle content is. Celebrity news, for one, is a much more palatable entry point. Take Candace Owens, the far-right political commentator, podcaster, and conspiracy theorist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that kind of rhetoric is still divisive. It’s certainly not the soft on-ramp to conservative ideology that lifestyle content is. Celebrity news, for one, is a much more palatable entry point. Take Candace Owens, the far-right political commentator, podcaster, and conspiracy theorist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason why Candace Owens has her own news platform that’s dedicated to celebrity news when she is like, a politics person. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason why Candace Owens has her own news platform that’s dedicated to celebrity news when she is like, a politics person. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Candace Owens from TikTok] \u003c/strong>Personally, I’m starting to wonder if Cynthia is about to steal Ariana from Ethan Slater, which would be some great justice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Candace Owens from TikTok] \u003c/strong>Personally, I’m starting to wonder if Cynthia is about to steal Ariana from Ethan Slater, which would be some great justice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Where you can reel someone in with your cultural takes and eventually build like, this cultural consensus to like a right-wing agenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Where you can reel someone in with your cultural takes and eventually build like, this cultural consensus to like a right-wing agenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pink pill pipeline often starts with dating advice. It’s very aspirational. Other young women showing off their luxurious lifestyles paid for by their boyfriends or husbands. You’ll hear buzzwords like “soft life” and “feminine energy” and “princess treatment.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pink pill pipeline often starts with dating advice. It’s very aspirational. Other young women showing off their luxurious lifestyles paid for by their boyfriends or husbands. You’ll hear buzzwords like “soft life” and “feminine energy” and “princess treatment.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Earth Angel Ariana]: \u003c/strong>I used to be a tomboy and play basketball, tackle football, and now I just feel like a princess wifey. I just feel like life is so soft and feminine, like men do everything for me. My boyfriend gives me princess treatment all the time. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Earth Angel Ariana]: \u003c/strong>I used to be a tomboy and play basketball, tackle football, and now I just feel like a princess wifey. I just feel like life is so soft and feminine, like men do everything for me. My boyfriend gives me princess treatment all the time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Laila Hakim]:\u003c/strong> Your man should wanna not only take care of you, but those around you, too. And he’s gonna do without hesitation. That man gets up so fucking fast, like, you won’t even be able to blink before he’s up. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Laila Hakim]:\u003c/strong> Your man should wanna not only take care of you, but those around you, too. And he’s gonna do without hesitation. That man gets up so fucking fast, like, you won’t even be able to blink before he’s up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Andele Lara]:\u003c/strong> Girl, I’m in Chicago with my man, and I didn’t book a flight, hotel, or schedule anything. Because a real provider is always going to make time for you. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Andele Lara]:\u003c/strong> Girl, I’m in Chicago with my man, and I didn’t book a flight, hotel, or schedule anything. Because a real provider is always going to make time for you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you’re a young woman, who’s been grinding in your career and still struggling to make ends meet — much less afford any of these luxuries — and on top of that, dating sucks… then this kind of content is alluring. It’s very easy to get sucked in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you’re a young woman, who’s been grinding in your career and still struggling to make ends meet — much less afford any of these luxuries — and on top of that, dating sucks… then this kind of content is alluring. It’s very easy to get sucked in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that the success of these different buzzwords and seemingly apolitical trends is that, you know, they spring from these very specific and very real frustrations. A lot of us were just like, set up to be screwed over by the economy as it exists. And I think that in traditional American politics, you hear all the time about frustrated working class men. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that the success of these different buzzwords and seemingly apolitical trends is that, you know, they spring from these very specific and very real frustrations. A lot of us were just like, set up to be screwed over by the economy as it exists. And I think that in traditional American politics, you hear all the time about frustrated working class men. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then, I think there is a lot of frustration among the demographic of young women who are also just very exploited as workers and really getting the short end of the stick economically. So that tends to then be catered to in a different way of this content that’s geared toward like, “You could have an amazing life if you just quit your terrible job. Um, your job mistreats and exploits you and all of this is exploitation. And it would actually be empowering if you just quit and married someone and had kids and took care of your kids.” And like, there is a real appeal there. If you hate your job, or if you’re struggling and you’re frustrated in that way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then, I think there is a lot of frustration among the demographic of young women who are also just very exploited as workers and really getting the short end of the stick economically. So that tends to then be catered to in a different way of this content that’s geared toward like, “You could have an amazing life if you just quit your terrible job. Um, your job mistreats and exploits you and all of this is exploitation. And it would actually be empowering if you just quit and married someone and had kids and took care of your kids.” And like, there is a real appeal there. If you hate your job, or if you’re struggling and you’re frustrated in that way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The word “empowering” is used a lot in pink pill content. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The word “empowering” is used a lot in pink pill content. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>A lot of these female lifestyle influencers who might not present as anti-feminist, they really will like, couch their specific choices in this performatively feminist language. You could even just see this with something slightly unrelated, but also very related of like vaccine skepticism. It’s like so couched in like, my body, my choice language. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>A lot of these female lifestyle influencers who might not present as anti-feminist, they really will like, couch their specific choices in this performatively feminist language. You could even just see this with something slightly unrelated, but also very related of like vaccine skepticism. It’s like so couched in like, my body, my choice language. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On its face, aspirational dating content doesn’t seem to be anti-feminist or regressive, especially when compared to the overt tradwife videos. But it also opens the door for a quieter, more insidious erosion of women’s agency and relationships. There is this Mormon influencer, Courtney Palmer, who went mega-viral last year for her videos on how to get the “princess treatment.” She talks about how her husband always opens the door for her, and how she rarely ties her own shoes because her husband will do it for her. And how do you secure the so-called provider? Well, Courtney has some advice: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On its face, aspirational dating content doesn’t seem to be anti-feminist or regressive, especially when compared to the overt tradwife videos. But it also opens the door for a quieter, more insidious erosion of women’s agency and relationships. There is this Mormon influencer, Courtney Palmer, who went mega-viral last year for her videos on how to get the “princess treatment.” She talks about how her husband always opens the door for her, and how she rarely ties her own shoes because her husband will do it for her. And how do you secure the so-called provider? Well, Courtney has some advice: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>I’m at a restaurant with my husband, I do not talk to the hostess, I do not open any doors, and I do not order my own food. You’re just letting your husband lead and be masculine. He made the reservation, let him do the logistics, you’re just being a princess. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>I’m at a restaurant with my husband, I do not talk to the hostess, I do not open any doors, and I do not order my own food. You’re just letting your husband lead and be masculine. He made the reservation, let him do the logistics, you’re just being a princess. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This messaging is particularly effective on young women, because it’s coming from their peers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This messaging is particularly effective on young women, because it’s coming from their peers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>They’re not like, Ted Cruz. They’re not like, you know, these Republican politicians. They’re, like, female lifestyle influencers, they’re young women. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>They’re not like, Ted Cruz. They’re not like, you know, these Republican politicians. They’re, like, female lifestyle influencers, they’re young women. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>If the waiter addresses you first, I will simply just look at my husband and my husband will order. You don’t need to over speak, over exert yourself. You can be feminine and soft and quiet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>If the waiter addresses you first, I will simply just look at my husband and my husband will order. You don’t need to over speak, over exert yourself. You can be feminine and soft and quiet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So to recap, here’s how the pink pill pipeline works: you’re a woman in your 20s — you might stumble across a post on Instagram about why Zendaya wants to be a mother. Celebrity news and pop culture is eye-catching. You follow the account. Then, you go on TikTok and see a video from a woman whose life seems so much easier and so much more luxurious than yours. Her fiance pays for everything. She doesn’t have to lift a finger. Who wouldn’t want that? You’re trying to be more active, so you go on YouTube and look up instructional videos for pilates at home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So to recap, here’s how the pink pill pipeline works: you’re a woman in your 20s — you might stumble across a post on Instagram about why Zendaya wants to be a mother. Celebrity news and pop culture is eye-catching. You follow the account. Then, you go on TikTok and see a video from a woman whose life seems so much easier and so much more luxurious than yours. Her fiance pays for everything. She doesn’t have to lift a finger. Who wouldn’t want that? You’re trying to be more active, so you go on YouTube and look up instructional videos for pilates at home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, your social media algorithms start feeding you more content — based on what you’ve already engaged with. More about the soft life. More tips for finding a provider boyfriend. YouTube shorts about the values of young motherhood. Instagram reels about holistic health, and clean living, and detoxifying your diet — which will make you hotter and increase your chances of finding a provider boyfriend. TikToks about why your birth control might be making you sick. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then, your social media algorithms start feeding you more content — based on what you’ve already engaged with. More about the soft life. More tips for finding a provider boyfriend. YouTube shorts about the values of young motherhood. Instagram reels about holistic health, and clean living, and detoxifying your diet — which will make you hotter and increase your chances of finding a provider boyfriend. TikToks about why your birth control might be making you sick. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There are people who aren’t kind of traditionally associated with going after reproductive rights or going after women’s rights. It looks a lot more organic if they’re just seemingly naturally talking about the connections between like, birth control causing infertility, which is not true and is not backed up by anything. And that’s supposedly meaning, giving way to like, the quote unquote, like, “IVF industry” of like, of now that so many women lost their fertility from using birth control, they now need IVF. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There are people who aren’t kind of traditionally associated with going after reproductive rights or going after women’s rights. It looks a lot more organic if they’re just seemingly naturally talking about the connections between like, birth control causing infertility, which is not true and is not backed up by anything. And that’s supposedly meaning, giving way to like, the quote unquote, like, “IVF industry” of like, of now that so many women lost their fertility from using birth control, they now need IVF. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Wait, what? Once you’re sucked into the pink pill pipeline, this conspiracy is everywhere. We’re going to get into that in a new tab — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay. After the break, the link between the pink pill, misinformation, and the war on birth control. Stick around. Let’s open a new tab: does birth control make you infertile? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Wait, what? Once you’re sucked into the pink pill pipeline, this conspiracy is everywhere. We’re going to get into that in a new tab — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay. After the break, the link between the pink pill, misinformation, and the war on birth control. Stick around. Let’s open a new tab: does birth control make you infertile? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Ugh, I mean no, there’s just like, no… evidence of this whatsoever. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Ugh, I mean no, there’s just like, no… evidence of this whatsoever. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On the internet, there’s this pervasive conspiracy theory that long-term hormonal birth control use leads to infertility, which is somehow funding the modern IVF industry. Like Kylie said, there is zero clinical evidence of this. This is a pretty extreme conspiracy theory, but anti-birth control content is on the rise. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On the internet, there’s this pervasive conspiracy theory that long-term hormonal birth control use leads to infertility, which is somehow funding the modern IVF industry. Like Kylie said, there is zero clinical evidence of this. This is a pretty extreme conspiracy theory, but anti-birth control content is on the rise. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A 2025 study, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, analyzed 100 of the top TikTok videos related to contraception, between August and September 2023. The videos had a collective 4.85 billion views — they were brimming with misinformation about hormonal birth control. Over half of the videos explicitly rejected hormonal birth control, and over a third of the videos recommended natural cycle tracking, without disclosing the limits of it. Only 10% of the videos were created by medical professionals. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A 2025 study, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, analyzed 100 of the top TikTok videos related to contraception, between August and September 2023. The videos had a collective 4.85 billion views — they were brimming with misinformation about hormonal birth control. Over half of the videos explicitly rejected hormonal birth control, and over a third of the videos recommended natural cycle tracking, without disclosing the limits of it. Only 10% of the videos were created by medical professionals. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This stuff is everywhere online. Here’s what the conversation around birth control looks like right now — and this is on mainstream social media. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This stuff is everywhere online. Here’s what the conversation around birth control looks like right now — and this is on mainstream social media. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Casiah West]: \u003c/strong>Your gynecologist isn’t really telling you how bad birth control is. What’s ironic is, the leading cause of death in women is heart disease. Is it that women are dying from heart disease because of birth control? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Casiah West]: \u003c/strong>Your gynecologist isn’t really telling you how bad birth control is. What’s ironic is, the leading cause of death in women is heart disease. Is it that women are dying from heart disease because of birth control? \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user The Workout Witch]:\u003c/strong> Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your body, specifically for your body’s biological stress response. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user The Workout Witch]:\u003c/strong> Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your body, specifically for your body’s biological stress response. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Whatever Pod from TikTok]:\u003c/strong> If you actually look at the birth control usage rates and divorce rates, they actually perfectly coincide with like a three-year delay. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Whatever Pod from TikTok]:\u003c/strong> If you actually look at the birth control usage rates and divorce rates, they actually perfectly coincide with like a three-year delay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Jay Shetty]:\u003c/strong> So we’re changing the hormone balance in women in a way that may not be completely reversible. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Jay Shetty]:\u003c/strong> So we’re changing the hormone balance in women in a way that may not be completely reversible. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]:\u003c/strong> Girls that I know who had like the implant in their arm or who have been on the pill for over 10 years cannot get pregnant. Almost like that was the entire point and plan in the first place. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]:\u003c/strong> Girls that I know who had like the implant in their arm or who have been on the pill for over 10 years cannot get pregnant. Almost like that was the entire point and plan in the first place. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>These sensational claims flatten a reality that is complex and nuanced. It’s true that people have wildly different experiences with birth control. Many women have been dismissed, mistreated, and discriminated against by the medical system. Medical misogyny is real, and the history of birth control is steeped in it. The pill was tested on Puerto Rican women, and doctors did dismiss reports of side effects as “psychosomatic.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>These sensational claims flatten a reality that is complex and nuanced. It’s true that people have wildly different experiences with birth control. Many women have been dismissed, mistreated, and discriminated against by the medical system. Medical misogyny is real, and the history of birth control is steeped in it. The pill was tested on Puerto Rican women, and doctors did dismiss reports of side effects as “psychosomatic.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, a lot of women are still not offered adequate pain management for IUD insertions. There’s no “one-size-fits-all” birth control option, so figuring out what actually works for your body can take a bit of trial and error, which can be especially discouraging when your doctors aren’t listening. I, myself, have had mixed experiences with birth control. Kylie has too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today, a lot of women are still not offered adequate pain management for IUD insertions. There’s no “one-size-fits-all” birth control option, so figuring out what actually works for your body can take a bit of trial and error, which can be especially discouraging when your doctors aren’t listening. I, myself, have had mixed experiences with birth control. Kylie has too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that you’d be hard-pressed to talk to any woman or any person who uses or has used at different points hormonal birth control, and hear that they had an absolutely flawless, perfect, pain-free experience. Their bodies might not react that well to like, hormonal-birth control pills or any number of different methods. And I think that that is all incredibly valid and can’t be, you know, pushed under the rug. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that you’d be hard-pressed to talk to any woman or any person who uses or has used at different points hormonal birth control, and hear that they had an absolutely flawless, perfect, pain-free experience. Their bodies might not react that well to like, hormonal-birth control pills or any number of different methods. And I think that that is all incredibly valid and can’t be, you know, pushed under the rug. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think there are just a lot of… difficult realities with our healthcare system, how our medical system treats the experiences and bodies of women or people who use birth control. I think that what you’ll kind of see on social media are kind of these narratives that really tend to flatten that, or just capitalize on the fact that we have these negative experiences to push these different messages about the safety, or effectiveness of birth control, even though… you know, medically speaking, birth control is very safe and very effective. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think there are just a lot of… difficult realities with our healthcare system, how our medical system treats the experiences and bodies of women or people who use birth control. I think that what you’ll kind of see on social media are kind of these narratives that really tend to flatten that, or just capitalize on the fact that we have these negative experiences to push these different messages about the safety, or effectiveness of birth control, even though… you know, medically speaking, birth control is very safe and very effective. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s just that we, as different people with different bodies will have different experiences with it. But I think that, you know, that there’s no room for that kind of nuance in like the kinds of social media posts, and what ends up happening is that like, a lot of storytelling can be taken out of context and then fed into like this right-wing political agenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s just that we, as different people with different bodies will have different experiences with it. But I think that, you know, that there’s no room for that kind of nuance in like the kinds of social media posts, and what ends up happening is that like, a lot of storytelling can be taken out of context and then fed into like this right-wing political agenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The existing negative experiences that many people have had with reproductive health care means that the cultural discourse is primed to be co-opted by far-right political movements. Like pink-pill dating advice, there are certain buzzwords that raise red flags for Kylie — especially words like “natural” and “cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The existing negative experiences that many people have had with reproductive health care means that the cultural discourse is primed to be co-opted by far-right political movements. Like pink-pill dating advice, there are certain buzzwords that raise red flags for Kylie — especially words like “natural” and “cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Cycle tracking is a perfectly valid form of contraception. Lots of people can’t take hormonal birth control for health reasons and have successfully relied on cycle tracking. But when influencers disparage other forms of contraception and insist on the “natural element” without disclosing that it’s one of the least effective forms of birth control? Red flags. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Cycle tracking is a perfectly valid form of contraception. Lots of people can’t take hormonal birth control for health reasons and have successfully relied on cycle tracking. But when influencers disparage other forms of contraception and insist on the “natural element” without disclosing that it’s one of the least effective forms of birth control? Red flags. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>What we have is this very, very regressive agenda, but really packaged in kind of this feminist way. And like, if you really, if you like, squint or if you aren’t that educated in these issues yourself, like, sure, it might even sound like it makes sense. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>What we have is this very, very regressive agenda, but really packaged in kind of this feminist way. And like, if you really, if you like, squint or if you aren’t that educated in these issues yourself, like, sure, it might even sound like it makes sense. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s only in the last few years that anti-birth control sentiments have gained so much momentum. We need to talk about when this uptick started. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s only in the last few years that anti-birth control sentiments have gained so much momentum. We need to talk about when this uptick started. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I really started noticing and reporting on it specifically around like, 2022, which coincidentally, you know, was the year that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I really started noticing and reporting on it specifically around like, 2022, which coincidentally, you know, was the year that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With Roe v. Wade overturned, many far-right religious groups and anti-abortion organizations have a new mission: to make birth control the new abortion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With Roe v. Wade overturned, many far-right religious groups and anti-abortion organizations have a new mission: to make birth control the new abortion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dasha Burns for NBC News from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>In the months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Maggie Olivia went to the pharmacy to pick up her birth control prescription. The pharmacists denied her prescription because they were unsure if it was legal, which it was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dasha Burns for NBC News from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>In the months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Maggie Olivia went to the pharmacy to pick up her birth control prescription. The pharmacists denied her prescription because they were unsure if it was legal, which it was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s open one more tab: the war on birth control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s open one more tab: the war on birth control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Make America Healthy Again — this is the Trump administration’s health initiative, spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., U.S. Health Secretary and notorious anti-vaxxer. The “MAHA” movement is fueled by skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. Practices and medications under scrutiny include: childhood vaccine schedules, Tylenol during pregnancy, antidepressants, ADHD drugs. And now, hormonal birth control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Make America Healthy Again — this is the Trump administration’s health initiative, spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., U.S. Health Secretary and notorious anti-vaxxer. The “MAHA” movement is fueled by skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. Practices and medications under scrutiny include: childhood vaccine schedules, Tylenol during pregnancy, antidepressants, ADHD drugs. And now, hormonal birth control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Amna Nawaz for PBS News Hour]: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Trump administration scrubbed CDC guidance on birth control from government websites and froze $65 million in funding to family planning clinics that provide free or low-cost contraception. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Amna Nawaz for PBS News Hour]: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Trump administration scrubbed CDC guidance on birth control from government websites and froze $65 million in funding to family planning clinics that provide free or low-cost contraception. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Department of Health and Human Services just overhauled Title X (ten). This is a federal grant program originally designed to help low-income Americans access birth control and other reproductive health care. Kylie said this program has always had bipartisan support, going all the way back to when Nixon signed it into law, over 50 years ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Department of Health and Human Services just overhauled Title X (ten). This is a federal grant program originally designed to help low-income Americans access birth control and other reproductive health care. Kylie said this program has always had bipartisan support, going all the way back to when Nixon signed it into law, over 50 years ago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now, according to a funding notice published at the beginning of July, grants funded through the program will, quote, “build body literacy, address infertility, plan and space pregnancies, and navigate reproductive health conditions such as endometriosis.” Contraception is not mentioned, except in a section about “over-medicalization.” Clinics that receive Title X (ten) funding are instructed to promote fertility awareness-based methods — like, natural cycle tracking. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But now, according to a funding notice published at the beginning of July, grants funded through the program will, quote, “build body literacy, address infertility, plan and space pregnancies, and navigate reproductive health conditions such as endometriosis.” Contraception is not mentioned, except in a section about “over-medicalization.” Clinics that receive Title X (ten) funding are instructed to promote fertility awareness-based methods — like, natural cycle tracking. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Some really concerning things have been like, the State Department equating certain forms of birth control and labeling them as abortifacient — and we’ve seen that a couple of times coming directly from this administration, and the goal then being to ban certain birth control or birth control more broadly, in the same way that abortion is banned. We’ve also seen the defunding of Planned Parenthood where like, what the language of that is is to suggest that reproductive healthcare and like, the provision of contraceptives and such isn’t actually health care — is kind of like the language. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Some really concerning things have been like, the State Department equating certain forms of birth control and labeling them as abortifacient — and we’ve seen that a couple of times coming directly from this administration, and the goal then being to ban certain birth control or birth control more broadly, in the same way that abortion is banned. We’ve also seen the defunding of Planned Parenthood where like, what the language of that is is to suggest that reproductive healthcare and like, the provision of contraceptives and such isn’t actually health care — is kind of like the language. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Conservatives were not always this critical of birth control. In fact, many were pro-birth control. Back in 2015, Republicans actually introduced a bill to make it even more accessible — by incentivizing drug companies to sell over-the-counter birth control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Conservatives were not always this critical of birth control. In fact, many were pro-birth control. Back in 2015, Republicans actually introduced a bill to make it even more accessible — by incentivizing drug companies to sell over-the-counter birth control.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there just has been this very sharp right-wing cultural pivot where a lot of this deeply pro-natalist language of human civilization and white Western society is in serious trouble if we don’t have a lot more babies really quick, like a lot of the Elon Musk rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there just has been this very sharp right-wing cultural pivot where a lot of this deeply pro-natalist language of human civilization and white Western society is in serious trouble if we don’t have a lot more babies really quick, like a lot of the Elon Musk rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Pro-natalism is an ideology that pushes for higher birth rates to combat the supposed “decline of civilization.” Anything that causes people to have more babies is on the table. Can you explain the link between this pro-natalist fear-mongering around falling birth rates and then white supremacist conspiracy theories? What is the great replacement theory that everyone’s freaking out about? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Pro-natalism is an ideology that pushes for higher birth rates to combat the supposed “decline of civilization.” Anything that causes people to have more babies is on the table. Can you explain the link between this pro-natalist fear-mongering around falling birth rates and then white supremacist conspiracy theories? What is the great replacement theory that everyone’s freaking out about? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there is just this inherent link between, you know, panics about the birth rate and racial panics, even though obviously, you know sometimes it’ll be couched in this race-neutral language of just like the human race and declining birth rates there, or the fact that like abortion bans or denying people birth control access will affect people of all races and people of all races might then be forced to like move forward with a pregnancy they don’t want or whatnot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there is just this inherent link between, you know, panics about the birth rate and racial panics, even though obviously, you know sometimes it’ll be couched in this race-neutral language of just like the human race and declining birth rates there, or the fact that like abortion bans or denying people birth control access will affect people of all races and people of all races might then be forced to like move forward with a pregnancy they don’t want or whatnot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>It’s impossible to separate this panic from its racist roots. It started with fears of declining birth rates among white women. Kylie said the decline isn’t statistically significant. Experts say it’s likely due to declining teen pregnancy rates. But some extremists on the right claim that birth control is used to suppress white birth rates, in an attempt to replace white Americans as the racial majority. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>It’s impossible to separate this panic from its racist roots. It started with fears of declining birth rates among white women. Kylie said the decline isn’t statistically significant. Experts say it’s likely due to declining teen pregnancy rates. But some extremists on the right claim that birth control is used to suppress white birth rates, in an attempt to replace white Americans as the racial majority. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There is just this deep tie between pronatalism and white nationalism in that way, just specifically because of how much white nationalism has like embraced pronatalism for its agenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There is just this deep tie between pronatalism and white nationalism in that way, just specifically because of how much white nationalism has like embraced pronatalism for its agenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In 2022, just months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, UC Berkeley, Mother Jones, and Reveal teamed up for a massive reporting project. They uncovered a years-long social media campaign from anti-abortion groups — to capitalize on wellness trends, promote cycle tracking, and sow distrust in hormonal birth control. Conservative influencers have continued to push birth control skepticism online— often citing outdated or inconclusive research studies to back up their claims. Birth control misinformation continues to thrive on social media. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In 2022, just months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, UC Berkeley, Mother Jones, and Reveal teamed up for a massive reporting project. They uncovered a years-long social media campaign from anti-abortion groups — to capitalize on wellness trends, promote cycle tracking, and sow distrust in hormonal birth control. Conservative influencers have continued to push birth control skepticism online— often citing outdated or inconclusive research studies to back up their claims. Birth control misinformation continues to thrive on social media. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]: \u003c/strong>Does anybody else find it just a teensy bit coincidental that they pushed birth control on Millennial and Gen Z teenagers so heavily and so early? And now, look at how booming IVF is? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]: \u003c/strong>Does anybody else find it just a teensy bit coincidental that they pushed birth control on Millennial and Gen Z teenagers so heavily and so early? And now, look at how booming IVF is? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That video has nearly identical wording to countless others. This year, political analyst Emily Amick published a three-part Substack series on the influencer campaign against birth control. She found dozens of Instagram posts from various lifestyle influencers that all had the same caption. They all said, and I quote, “I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the birth control pill was given out like candy to every female millennial at age 15. And now IVF is a $50 billion industry.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That video has nearly identical wording to countless others. This year, political analyst Emily Amick published a three-part Substack series on the influencer campaign against birth control. She found dozens of Instagram posts from various lifestyle influencers that all had the same caption. They all said, and I quote, “I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the birth control pill was given out like candy to every female millennial at age 15. And now IVF is a $50 billion industry.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Abortion is very politically popular, and so I think even now it’s very interesting that you’ll see the Trump administration has refrained from taking certain moves to directly go after abortion, but has taken all of these many different moves to go after birth control and family planning. And I’ve read certain legal experts suspect as well, is that birth control in some ways is more vulnerable — because it’s increasingly less popular because of how much misinformation there is about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Abortion is very politically popular, and so I think even now it’s very interesting that you’ll see the Trump administration has refrained from taking certain moves to directly go after abortion, but has taken all of these many different moves to go after birth control and family planning. And I’ve read certain legal experts suspect as well, is that birth control in some ways is more vulnerable — because it’s increasingly less popular because of how much misinformation there is about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Over the last four years, there have been anecdotal reports of young women who’ve discontinued hormonal birth control because of what they see online. This is backed up by a 2024 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation. 49% of women between 18 and 25 have been served content about birth control on social media. 14% said they made a change to their birth control method or considered a change because of something they heard online. Kylie said, it’ll be decades until we understand the long-term effects of the online campaign against birth control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Over the last four years, there have been anecdotal reports of young women who’ve discontinued hormonal birth control because of what they see online. This is backed up by a 2024 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation. 49% of women between 18 and 25 have been served content about birth control on social media. 14% said they made a change to their birth control method or considered a change because of something they heard online. Kylie said, it’ll be decades until we understand the long-term effects of the online campaign against birth control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s easy to dismiss lifestyle content as frivolous and inconsequential. You might see a TikTok from a woman who brags about how her boyfriend pays all of their bills, and think… “It’s not that deep.” You might come across an influencer who questions the safety of IUDs and promotes natural cycle tracking — and it’s tempting to think… “That’s just her choice!” But the pink pill pipeline is real. Content targeted at women is rapidly becoming a vehicle for extremist ideology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s easy to dismiss lifestyle content as frivolous and inconsequential. You might see a TikTok from a woman who brags about how her boyfriend pays all of their bills, and think… “It’s not that deep.” You might come across an influencer who questions the safety of IUDs and promotes natural cycle tracking — and it’s tempting to think… “That’s just her choice!” But the pink pill pipeline is real. Content targeted at women is rapidly becoming a vehicle for extremist ideology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since Trump’s re-election, concerns about the manosphere have dominated the political conversation. For all of the hand-wringing about bro-y podcasts radicalizing young men, there’s very little discussion about the young women buying into their own oppression. Content aimed at girls is just not taken seriously. That’s part of what makes the pink pill pipeline so effective. It’s the lack of awareness. There’s a political undercurrent to all of these girlish lifestyle videos, but it’s very easy to miss if you’re not already looking for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since Trump’s re-election, concerns about the manosphere have dominated the political conversation. For all of the hand-wringing about bro-y podcasts radicalizing young men, there’s very little discussion about the young women buying into their own oppression. Content aimed at girls is just not taken seriously. That’s part of what makes the pink pill pipeline so effective. It’s the lack of awareness. There’s a political undercurrent to all of these girlish lifestyle videos, but it’s very easy to miss if you’re not already looking for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now, you know what to look for. Before you like a video, or follow an influencer, it’s worth taking a moment to really consider the agenda behind this content. Are they sharing a personal experience with one specific type of birth control? Or are they insisting that all birth control is bad — and that only the method they recommend is natural and healthy? Sure, the romantic date night content is cute, but… is the person posting it also telling you that you need to make yourself quiet and submissive if you want to find a man who’ll pick up the check? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But now, you know what to look for. Before you like a video, or follow an influencer, it’s worth taking a moment to really consider the agenda behind this content. Are they sharing a personal experience with one specific type of birth control? Or are they insisting that all birth control is bad — and that only the method they recommend is natural and healthy? Sure, the romantic date night content is cute, but… is the person posting it also telling you that you need to make yourself quiet and submissive if you want to find a man who’ll pick up the check? \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The point is, you don’t have to engage with this content. But, if it comes across your feed, you should be ready to see it for what it is — and then you can keep scrolling. That’s it for our deep dive — but as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to go further down this rabbit hole, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. Until next week, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The point is, you don’t have to engage with this content. But, if it comes across your feed, you should be ready to see it for what it is — and then you can keep scrolling. That’s it for our deep dive — but as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to go further down this rabbit hole, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. Until next week, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips and archive tape from Impaulsive, This Past Weekend with Theo Von, Adin Ross, The Matrix, Fox News, NBC News, PBS Newshour, and TikTok creators @earthangelariana, @ulovelailahakim, @theandelelara, Courtney Palmer, @casiahwest, @theworkoutwitch, @whateverpod, @jayshetty, and @prettypolitics101. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Yeah! Oh my God, now that I’m remembering it, I mean like in 2022, there was just like a viral moment of like a lot of different people theorizing that like, birth control makes you gay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Yeah! Oh my God, now that I’m remembering it, I mean like in 2022, there was just like a viral moment of like a lot of different people theorizing that like, birth control makes you gay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I saw your “birth control makes people a lesbian rumor” piece and I was like, “That’s crazy,” because every lesbian I know says the complete opposite, that they went off the pill and they were like, “I don’t even like men.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I saw your “birth control makes people a lesbian rumor” piece and I was like, “That’s crazy,” because every lesbian I know says the complete opposite, that they went off the pill and they were like, “I don’t even like men.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>So fair, yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It starts with aspirational lifestyle content about “embracing your femininity,” but ends with alt-right ideology and conspiracy theories about reproductive care. This is the pink pill pipeline — one of the primary ways young women are radicalized online today. Seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture leads to increasingly conservative and extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis or how women don’t need to vote. It’s all wrapped up in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Reporter Kylie Cheung joins to discuss how seemingly apolitical content online is shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights through coordinated misinformation campaigns, and how to spot pink pill content for what it is.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5702825517\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://substack.com/@kylietcheung?utm_source=about-page\">Kylie Cheung\u003c/a>, staff reporter at \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/how-celebrity-smear-campaigns-are\">How Celebrity Smear Campaigns are Inspiring Attacks on Birth Control\u003c/a> — Kylie Cheung, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/far-right-birth-control-conspiracy-theories/\">Far right coming for women’s autonomy; birth control on chopping block\u003c/a> — Cassie Miller, \u003cem>Southern Poverty Law Center\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://jessica.substack.com/p/princess-treatment-trend-conservative-pipeline\">We Need to Talk About the Pink-Pill Pipeline\u003c/a> — Jessica Valenti, \u003cem>Abortion, Every Day\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://emilyinyourphone.substack.com/p/i-caught-a-secret-right-wing-influence\">I Caught a Secret Right-Wing Influence Operation Running In My Feed\u003c/a> — Emily Amick, \u003cem>Emily In Your Phone\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://revealnews.org/podcast/the-long-campaign-to-turn-birth-control-into-the-new-abortion/\">The Long Campaign to Turn Birth Control Into the New Abortion\u003c/a> — Katharine Mieszkowski, \u003cem>Reveal\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/09/inside-anti-abortion-groups-campaign-to-sell-women-on-unreliable-birth-control-alternatives/\">Inside Anti-Abortion Groups’ Campaign to Sell Women on Unreliable Birth Control “Alternatives”\u003c/a> — Kiera Butler, \u003cem>Mother Jones\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2026/04/25/birth-control-maha-abortion-trump-00889738\">Trump Is Going After Birth Control. Here’s Why. \u003c/a>— Mary Ziegler, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://theintercept.com/2026/07/10/rfk-jr-pronatalism-birth-control/\">The Trump Administration Is Overhauling Birth Control Access for the Pronatalist Movement\u003c/a> — Jessica Washington, \u003cem>The Intercept\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hello. Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends! Post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you’re starting arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re a young woman online, you may have seen posts from Evie Magazine. It has a chic millennial pink logo and taglines like “helping women harness their feminine energy.” Its website features glossy, aspirational photo shoots of women modeling gauzy dresses on the Mediterranean coast, women doing yoga in coordinated pastel workout sets, and women riding horseback through arid Southwestern grasslands. They’re paired with articles like, “What the It Girls Are Wearing in Italy This Summer,” and “Is Your Bra Making You Sick?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You probably would not suspect that there’s anything like, quote unquote “political” about this publication at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is Kylie Cheung, the staff reporter for the newsletter, Abortion, Every Day. She’s been covering reproductive health care and women’s rights for years, working at Jezebel and Salon. At first glance, Evie Magazine’s content doesn’t appear that different from the coverage of the publications where Kylie used to work. But push past the surface, and something else emerges. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>You might see their presence on, say, Instagram if you like see a post about celebrity news, then you might follow them or you might go back to their website, and then slowly but surely start to see more content that’s really pushing motherhood, young motherhood, like anti-birth control messages. They describe themselves as like a magazine for celebrating true womanhood and femininity, and as we know all of that has increasingly become kind of this right-wing dog whistle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you dig a little deeper into Evie’s website, you’ll find articles on why Love Island actually makes a case against casual sex, how Netflix’s Little House on the Prairie is quote, “The Most Pro-American Show in Years,” and coverage of celebrities who’ve denounced birth control. In fact, Evie publishes at least one anti-birth control article per month, filled with of birth control causing strokes, depression, hormonal chaos, and… bisexuality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>That is such a good one. I remember in like 2022, I was reporting on this influx of TikToks about conspiracy theories that like, my birth control made me gay or this or that. And it’s just like, maybe you were, maybe you’re just gay, which is like, totally cool and everything. And then if something is seen as like unsafe or dangerous that contributes to… a consensus that there should be more restrictions or it should be harder to access, and that is ultimately a right-wing political goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Evie Magazine has been hailed as the “conservative Cosmo.” In addition to the digital and print content, Evie also hosts live events and sells raw milkmaid dresses — a play on the far-right raw milk craze and the cottagecore trend that dominated the early 2020s fashion cycle. Oh, and there’s Evie’s FemTech debut — a period-tracking app funded by Peter Thiel that promises to help women wean off of birth control in favor of “natural cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>If you just say we need to like ban birth control, that isn’t really on its face going to be a popular message, but colluding with kind of this whole “MAHA” and like alternative health scene of pushing for this idea that any amount of like quote unquote “chemicals” and putting this or that in your body, that that is kind of what you might see at a website. Like Evie, that claims to be like an apolitical female lifestyle brand that, you know, isn’t going to overtly say, “We think birth control should be banned,” but is going to kind of push these messages, really questioning and kind of contributing to like, lessening the popularity of birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the pink pill pipeline. This is the way young women are radicalized online — through seemingly innocuous content about dating advice, wellness tips, and pop culture — which steers them toward influencers who assure them that giving up their career is an empowering choice… and that caring about politics is for the boys, anyway. And soon enough, extremist talking points about how birth control is causing the fertility crisis, or how women don’t need to vote, don’t feel extreme at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that content, of course, is wrapped in a glossy veneer of feminine empowerment. Today, we’re exploring how seemingly apolitical content online is actually shifting the cultural narrative around reproductive rights — through coordinated misinformation campaigns and aspirational lifestyle posts. And let me tell you, it’s a lot easier to get sucked in than you might think. Ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know how this goes. Let’s open our first tab. What is the pink pill pipeline? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think like, end of 2024, when we were seeing all of these conversations come up about how the quote unquote “Manosphere” helped Trump win the election by like, connecting with young men and how he’d gone on all of these like Manosphere-y podcasts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Logan Paul’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Biden is just so bad. He’s the worst president in the history of our country. You should make a diss track on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Theo Von’s podcast from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Is cocaine a stronger, uh, up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie, you know what I’m saying? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of President Trump on Adin Ross’s stream from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Well, today is going to be the most important stream I’ve ever done. Right in the living room of Mar-a-Lago. And we’ll have a little fun today. Let’s do it. My son Barron says hello, but he’s a big fan of yours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of them, they’ll have interviewed or endorsed Trump, but they won’t call themselves political. It’s because they draw in and radicalize so many young men precisely by presenting as apolitical, where first, young men might be drawn to their content that’s dating advice, or stuff about MMA fighting, or any number of things that aren’t inherently political, but then just because of how algorithms work, or as you continue to watch their videos or content — eventually they just start saying pretty misogynistic or racist things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This is an alt-right ideology known as the red pill: the belief that men are disadvantaged in modern society — and that it’s feminism’s fault. Taking the red pill is a nod to this scene in The Matrix — when Neo learns that his entire life is a simulation. Morpheus offers him a choice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of The Matrix from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Incels and self-described “men’s rights activists” have used the metaphor of the red pill to describe “waking up” to their victimhood and resisting “progressive” notions like… women having any agency at all. The manosphere calls for a return to the patriarchal glory of the past. Today, red-pilling is used to describe the way people are radicalized into far-right ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Manosphere content can be wildly misogynistic — but the way young men fall into these online circles is through lifestyle content that appears apolitical: weightlifting, dating advice, style tips. The pink pill pipeline is the other side of this coin. The phrase was coined by journalist Lois Shearing. Her 2025 book, “Pink-pilled,” examines how women are lured into far-right ideology. Just like with red-pilling, pink-pilling also starts with seemingly apolitical lifestyle content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Many of these creators or influencers will not overtly identify as Republican agents. They will, in fact, probably reel in young women through content or short-form videos where they talk about celebrity gossip, or maybe they’ll talk about health advice, and eventually get to disparaging and pushing misinformation about birth control. If you’re a young woman and you hate your job, they might give you advice about how to start dating like, a rich man and how you can achieve something akin to like a tradwife lifestyle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We talked about tradwives in our episode on Mormon momfluencers. They’re women who’ve rejected a modern career path and rely on their husbands to be the breadwinners. Tradwives are supposed to manage the household, do all the chores, take care of the kids, and lead their family’s return to traditional gender roles. Hence, tradwife. Tradwife content was pretty trendy for a while. Videos of baking bread from scratch, homeschooling children, and performing motherhood. But, as it turns out, being a stay-at-home mom, taking care of an entire family on a single income, is not glamorous — it’s hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As more horror stories have emerged about the economic precarity of this reality, the tradwife lifestyle has started to lose its appeal. In fact, the most prominent pink pill figures have shifted their messaging away from promoting the tradwife lifestyle — because they know it’s unpopular. Like Emma Waters. She’s a researcher for the Heritage Foundation, the far-right think tank behind Project 2025. Emma Waters has been promoting a middle ground between tradwives and girlboss feminists. But still promoting motherhood above all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Emma Waters for Fox News from TikTok]: \u003c/strong>How can we structure what career success and the career trajectory of mothers looks like first, and then build in our career and education to complement that? So maybe women won’t work full-time. About 60% of women say that they would actually prefer to be a homemaker. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that kind of rhetoric is still divisive. It’s certainly not the soft on-ramp to conservative ideology that lifestyle content is. Celebrity news, for one, is a much more palatable entry point. Take Candace Owens, the far-right political commentator, podcaster, and conspiracy theorist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason why Candace Owens has her own news platform that’s dedicated to celebrity news when she is like, a politics person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Candace Owens from TikTok] \u003c/strong>Personally, I’m starting to wonder if Cynthia is about to steal Ariana from Ethan Slater, which would be some great justice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Where you can reel someone in with your cultural takes and eventually build like, this cultural consensus to like a right-wing agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pink pill pipeline often starts with dating advice. It’s very aspirational. Other young women showing off their luxurious lifestyles paid for by their boyfriends or husbands. You’ll hear buzzwords like “soft life” and “feminine energy” and “princess treatment.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Earth Angel Ariana]: \u003c/strong>I used to be a tomboy and play basketball, tackle football, and now I just feel like a princess wifey. I just feel like life is so soft and feminine, like men do everything for me. My boyfriend gives me princess treatment all the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Laila Hakim]:\u003c/strong> Your man should wanna not only take care of you, but those around you, too. And he’s gonna do without hesitation. That man gets up so fucking fast, like, you won’t even be able to blink before he’s up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Andele Lara]:\u003c/strong> Girl, I’m in Chicago with my man, and I didn’t book a flight, hotel, or schedule anything. Because a real provider is always going to make time for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>If you’re a young woman, who’s been grinding in your career and still struggling to make ends meet — much less afford any of these luxuries — and on top of that, dating sucks… then this kind of content is alluring. It’s very easy to get sucked in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that the success of these different buzzwords and seemingly apolitical trends is that, you know, they spring from these very specific and very real frustrations. A lot of us were just like, set up to be screwed over by the economy as it exists. And I think that in traditional American politics, you hear all the time about frustrated working class men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then, I think there is a lot of frustration among the demographic of young women who are also just very exploited as workers and really getting the short end of the stick economically. So that tends to then be catered to in a different way of this content that’s geared toward like, “You could have an amazing life if you just quit your terrible job. Um, your job mistreats and exploits you and all of this is exploitation. And it would actually be empowering if you just quit and married someone and had kids and took care of your kids.” And like, there is a real appeal there. If you hate your job, or if you’re struggling and you’re frustrated in that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The word “empowering” is used a lot in pink pill content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>A lot of these female lifestyle influencers who might not present as anti-feminist, they really will like, couch their specific choices in this performatively feminist language. You could even just see this with something slightly unrelated, but also very related of like vaccine skepticism. It’s like so couched in like, my body, my choice language. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On its face, aspirational dating content doesn’t seem to be anti-feminist or regressive, especially when compared to the overt tradwife videos. But it also opens the door for a quieter, more insidious erosion of women’s agency and relationships. There is this Mormon influencer, Courtney Palmer, who went mega-viral last year for her videos on how to get the “princess treatment.” She talks about how her husband always opens the door for her, and how she rarely ties her own shoes because her husband will do it for her. And how do you secure the so-called provider? Well, Courtney has some advice: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>I’m at a restaurant with my husband, I do not talk to the hostess, I do not open any doors, and I do not order my own food. You’re just letting your husband lead and be masculine. He made the reservation, let him do the logistics, you’re just being a princess. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This messaging is particularly effective on young women, because it’s coming from their peers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>They’re not like, Ted Cruz. They’re not like, you know, these Republican politicians. They’re, like, female lifestyle influencers, they’re young women. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Courtney Palmer from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>If the waiter addresses you first, I will simply just look at my husband and my husband will order. You don’t need to over speak, over exert yourself. You can be feminine and soft and quiet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So to recap, here’s how the pink pill pipeline works: you’re a woman in your 20s — you might stumble across a post on Instagram about why Zendaya wants to be a mother. Celebrity news and pop culture is eye-catching. You follow the account. Then, you go on TikTok and see a video from a woman whose life seems so much easier and so much more luxurious than yours. Her fiance pays for everything. She doesn’t have to lift a finger. Who wouldn’t want that? You’re trying to be more active, so you go on YouTube and look up instructional videos for pilates at home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, your social media algorithms start feeding you more content — based on what you’ve already engaged with. More about the soft life. More tips for finding a provider boyfriend. YouTube shorts about the values of young motherhood. Instagram reels about holistic health, and clean living, and detoxifying your diet — which will make you hotter and increase your chances of finding a provider boyfriend. TikToks about why your birth control might be making you sick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There are people who aren’t kind of traditionally associated with going after reproductive rights or going after women’s rights. It looks a lot more organic if they’re just seemingly naturally talking about the connections between like, birth control causing infertility, which is not true and is not backed up by anything. And that’s supposedly meaning, giving way to like, the quote unquote, like, “IVF industry” of like, of now that so many women lost their fertility from using birth control, they now need IVF. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Wait, what? Once you’re sucked into the pink pill pipeline, this conspiracy is everywhere. We’re going to get into that in a new tab — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay. After the break, the link between the pink pill, misinformation, and the war on birth control. Stick around. Let’s open a new tab: does birth control make you infertile? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Ugh, I mean no, there’s just like, no… evidence of this whatsoever. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>On the internet, there’s this pervasive conspiracy theory that long-term hormonal birth control use leads to infertility, which is somehow funding the modern IVF industry. Like Kylie said, there is zero clinical evidence of this. This is a pretty extreme conspiracy theory, but anti-birth control content is on the rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A 2025 study, published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, analyzed 100 of the top TikTok videos related to contraception, between August and September 2023. The videos had a collective 4.85 billion views — they were brimming with misinformation about hormonal birth control. Over half of the videos explicitly rejected hormonal birth control, and over a third of the videos recommended natural cycle tracking, without disclosing the limits of it. Only 10% of the videos were created by medical professionals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This stuff is everywhere online. Here’s what the conversation around birth control looks like right now — and this is on mainstream social media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Casiah West]: \u003c/strong>Your gynecologist isn’t really telling you how bad birth control is. What’s ironic is, the leading cause of death in women is heart disease. Is it that women are dying from heart disease because of birth control? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user The Workout Witch]:\u003c/strong> Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your body, specifically for your body’s biological stress response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Whatever Pod from TikTok]:\u003c/strong> If you actually look at the birth control usage rates and divorce rates, they actually perfectly coincide with like a three-year delay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Jay Shetty]:\u003c/strong> So we’re changing the hormone balance in women in a way that may not be completely reversible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]:\u003c/strong> Girls that I know who had like the implant in their arm or who have been on the pill for over 10 years cannot get pregnant. Almost like that was the entire point and plan in the first place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>These sensational claims flatten a reality that is complex and nuanced. It’s true that people have wildly different experiences with birth control. Many women have been dismissed, mistreated, and discriminated against by the medical system. Medical misogyny is real, and the history of birth control is steeped in it. The pill was tested on Puerto Rican women, and doctors did dismiss reports of side effects as “psychosomatic.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, a lot of women are still not offered adequate pain management for IUD insertions. There’s no “one-size-fits-all” birth control option, so figuring out what actually works for your body can take a bit of trial and error, which can be especially discouraging when your doctors aren’t listening. I, myself, have had mixed experiences with birth control. Kylie has too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that you’d be hard-pressed to talk to any woman or any person who uses or has used at different points hormonal birth control, and hear that they had an absolutely flawless, perfect, pain-free experience. Their bodies might not react that well to like, hormonal-birth control pills or any number of different methods. And I think that that is all incredibly valid and can’t be, you know, pushed under the rug. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are just a lot of… difficult realities with our healthcare system, how our medical system treats the experiences and bodies of women or people who use birth control. I think that what you’ll kind of see on social media are kind of these narratives that really tend to flatten that, or just capitalize on the fact that we have these negative experiences to push these different messages about the safety, or effectiveness of birth control, even though… you know, medically speaking, birth control is very safe and very effective. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s just that we, as different people with different bodies will have different experiences with it. But I think that, you know, that there’s no room for that kind of nuance in like the kinds of social media posts, and what ends up happening is that like, a lot of storytelling can be taken out of context and then fed into like this right-wing political agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The existing negative experiences that many people have had with reproductive health care means that the cultural discourse is primed to be co-opted by far-right political movements. Like pink-pill dating advice, there are certain buzzwords that raise red flags for Kylie — especially words like “natural” and “cycle tracking.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cycle tracking is a perfectly valid form of contraception. Lots of people can’t take hormonal birth control for health reasons and have successfully relied on cycle tracking. But when influencers disparage other forms of contraception and insist on the “natural element” without disclosing that it’s one of the least effective forms of birth control? Red flags. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>What we have is this very, very regressive agenda, but really packaged in kind of this feminist way. And like, if you really, if you like, squint or if you aren’t that educated in these issues yourself, like, sure, it might even sound like it makes sense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s only in the last few years that anti-birth control sentiments have gained so much momentum. We need to talk about when this uptick started. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I really started noticing and reporting on it specifically around like, 2022, which coincidentally, you know, was the year that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With Roe v. Wade overturned, many far-right religious groups and anti-abortion organizations have a new mission: to make birth control the new abortion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dasha Burns for NBC News from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>In the months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Maggie Olivia went to the pharmacy to pick up her birth control prescription. The pharmacists denied her prescription because they were unsure if it was legal, which it was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Let’s open one more tab: the war on birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Make America Healthy Again — this is the Trump administration’s health initiative, spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., U.S. Health Secretary and notorious anti-vaxxer. The “MAHA” movement is fueled by skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. Practices and medications under scrutiny include: childhood vaccine schedules, Tylenol during pregnancy, antidepressants, ADHD drugs. And now, hormonal birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Amna Nawaz for PBS News Hour]: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Trump administration scrubbed CDC guidance on birth control from government websites and froze $65 million in funding to family planning clinics that provide free or low-cost contraception. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Department of Health and Human Services just overhauled Title X (ten). This is a federal grant program originally designed to help low-income Americans access birth control and other reproductive health care. Kylie said this program has always had bipartisan support, going all the way back to when Nixon signed it into law, over 50 years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now, according to a funding notice published at the beginning of July, grants funded through the program will, quote, “build body literacy, address infertility, plan and space pregnancies, and navigate reproductive health conditions such as endometriosis.” Contraception is not mentioned, except in a section about “over-medicalization.” Clinics that receive Title X (ten) funding are instructed to promote fertility awareness-based methods — like, natural cycle tracking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Some really concerning things have been like, the State Department equating certain forms of birth control and labeling them as abortifacient — and we’ve seen that a couple of times coming directly from this administration, and the goal then being to ban certain birth control or birth control more broadly, in the same way that abortion is banned. We’ve also seen the defunding of Planned Parenthood where like, what the language of that is is to suggest that reproductive healthcare and like, the provision of contraceptives and such isn’t actually health care — is kind of like the language. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Conservatives were not always this critical of birth control. In fact, many were pro-birth control. Back in 2015, Republicans actually introduced a bill to make it even more accessible — by incentivizing drug companies to sell over-the-counter birth control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there just has been this very sharp right-wing cultural pivot where a lot of this deeply pro-natalist language of human civilization and white Western society is in serious trouble if we don’t have a lot more babies really quick, like a lot of the Elon Musk rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Pro-natalism is an ideology that pushes for higher birth rates to combat the supposed “decline of civilization.” Anything that causes people to have more babies is on the table. Can you explain the link between this pro-natalist fear-mongering around falling birth rates and then white supremacist conspiracy theories? What is the great replacement theory that everyone’s freaking out about? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>I think that there is just this inherent link between, you know, panics about the birth rate and racial panics, even though obviously, you know sometimes it’ll be couched in this race-neutral language of just like the human race and declining birth rates there, or the fact that like abortion bans or denying people birth control access will affect people of all races and people of all races might then be forced to like move forward with a pregnancy they don’t want or whatnot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>It’s impossible to separate this panic from its racist roots. It started with fears of declining birth rates among white women. Kylie said the decline isn’t statistically significant. Experts say it’s likely due to declining teen pregnancy rates. But some extremists on the right claim that birth control is used to suppress white birth rates, in an attempt to replace white Americans as the racial majority. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>There is just this deep tie between pronatalism and white nationalism in that way, just specifically because of how much white nationalism has like embraced pronatalism for its agenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In 2022, just months after Roe v. Wade was overturned, UC Berkeley, Mother Jones, and Reveal teamed up for a massive reporting project. They uncovered a years-long social media campaign from anti-abortion groups — to capitalize on wellness trends, promote cycle tracking, and sow distrust in hormonal birth control. Conservative influencers have continued to push birth control skepticism online— often citing outdated or inconclusive research studies to back up their claims. Birth control misinformation continues to thrive on social media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of TikTok user Pretty Politics 101]: \u003c/strong>Does anybody else find it just a teensy bit coincidental that they pushed birth control on Millennial and Gen Z teenagers so heavily and so early? And now, look at how booming IVF is? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That video has nearly identical wording to countless others. This year, political analyst Emily Amick published a three-part Substack series on the influencer campaign against birth control. She found dozens of Instagram posts from various lifestyle influencers that all had the same caption. They all said, and I quote, “I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the birth control pill was given out like candy to every female millennial at age 15. And now IVF is a $50 billion industry.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Abortion is very politically popular, and so I think even now it’s very interesting that you’ll see the Trump administration has refrained from taking certain moves to directly go after abortion, but has taken all of these many different moves to go after birth control and family planning. And I’ve read certain legal experts suspect as well, is that birth control in some ways is more vulnerable — because it’s increasingly less popular because of how much misinformation there is about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Over the last four years, there have been anecdotal reports of young women who’ve discontinued hormonal birth control because of what they see online. This is backed up by a 2024 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation. 49% of women between 18 and 25 have been served content about birth control on social media. 14% said they made a change to their birth control method or considered a change because of something they heard online. Kylie said, it’ll be decades until we understand the long-term effects of the online campaign against birth control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s easy to dismiss lifestyle content as frivolous and inconsequential. You might see a TikTok from a woman who brags about how her boyfriend pays all of their bills, and think… “It’s not that deep.” You might come across an influencer who questions the safety of IUDs and promotes natural cycle tracking — and it’s tempting to think… “That’s just her choice!” But the pink pill pipeline is real. Content targeted at women is rapidly becoming a vehicle for extremist ideology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since Trump’s re-election, concerns about the manosphere have dominated the political conversation. For all of the hand-wringing about bro-y podcasts radicalizing young men, there’s very little discussion about the young women buying into their own oppression. Content aimed at girls is just not taken seriously. That’s part of what makes the pink pill pipeline so effective. It’s the lack of awareness. There’s a political undercurrent to all of these girlish lifestyle videos, but it’s very easy to miss if you’re not already looking for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now, you know what to look for. Before you like a video, or follow an influencer, it’s worth taking a moment to really consider the agenda behind this content. Are they sharing a personal experience with one specific type of birth control? Or are they insisting that all birth control is bad — and that only the method they recommend is natural and healthy? Sure, the romantic date night content is cute, but… is the person posting it also telling you that you need to make yourself quiet and submissive if you want to find a man who’ll pick up the check? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The point is, you don’t have to engage with this content. But, if it comes across your feed, you should be ready to see it for what it is — and then you can keep scrolling. That’s it for our deep dive — but as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to go further down this rabbit hole, we’ll link to some further reading in our show notes. Until next week, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional production help from our intern, Lauren Yoon. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips and archive tape from Impaulsive, This Past Weekend with Theo Von, Adin Ross, The Matrix, Fox News, NBC News, PBS Newshour, and TikTok creators @earthangelariana, @ulovelailahakim, @theandelelara, Courtney Palmer, @casiahwest, @theworkoutwitch, @whateverpod, @jayshetty, and @prettypolitics101. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>Yeah! Oh my God, now that I’m remembering it, I mean like in 2022, there was just like a viral moment of like a lot of different people theorizing that like, birth control makes you gay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I saw your “birth control makes people a lesbian rumor” piece and I was like, “That’s crazy,” because every lesbian I know says the complete opposite, that they went off the pill and they were like, “I don’t even like men.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kylie Cheung: \u003c/strong>So fair, yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye (Reload)",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"Changa Husky, furry Vtuber and video producer",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"Who runs the internet? Furries — Dylan Reeve, The Spinoff ",
"Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom — Patch O’Furr, Dogpatch Press ",
"The Fandom: A Furry Documentary — Ash Coyote, YouTube",
"Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition — Changa Husky, YouTube ",
"Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "are-we-doomed-if-the-internet-goes-dark",
"title": "Are We Doomed If The Internet Goes Dark?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, Are We Doomed? Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers",
"title": "'Get The Flock Out': The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates worried about a creeping surveillance state and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan talks to Bay Area reporters Roselyn Romero and Riley Cooke about the fight over Flock spreading throughout the region, what we still don’t know about how Flock’s data is used and how some residents are finding creative ways to push back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560783367\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/author/roselyn-romero/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roselyn Romero\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, public safety journalist at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oaklandside \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltoonline.com/author/rcookeembarcaderopublishing-com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Palo Alto Weekly \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB0gr7Fh6lY\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We Hacked Flock Safety Cameras in under 30 Seconds \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Benn Jordan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://sanjosespotlight.com/palo-alto-license-plate-data-searched-by-hundreds-of-out-of-state-agencies/\">Palo Alto license plate data searched by hundreds of out-of-state agencies\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Riley Cooke, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Palo Alto Weekly\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/05/28/flock-training-police-city-councils-webinar/\">Flock is quietly training Bay Area police to sway city leaders to buy surveillance tech\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Roselyn Romero, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>The Oaklandside \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/flock-exposed-its-ai-powered-cameras-to-the-internet-we-tracked-ourselves/\">Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jason Koebler, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://knock-la.com/does-flock-safety-keep-women-safe/\">Does Flock Safety Keep Women Safe?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jayme Kusyk, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Knock LA\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://ij.org/police-have-reportedly-used-license-plate-readers-to-stalk-romantic-interests-at-least-14-times-in-recent-years/\">Police Have Reportedly Used License Plate Readers to Stalk Romantic Interests at Least 21 Times in Recent Years \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> —\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Christopher Ingraham, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Institute for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2026/05/21/home-depot-lowes-downplay-customer-surveillance-threats-flock-cameras-immigration/\">Home Depot and Lowe’s Downplay Customer Surveillance Threats\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Whitney Curry Wimbish, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The American Prospect\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whro.org/business-growth/2026-01-20/flock-cameras-in-hampton-roads-surveil-black-communities-more-intensely-than-white-ones-cnu-study-says\">Flock cameras in Hampton Roads surveil Black communities more intensely than white ones, CNU study says\u003c/a> — Toby Cox, \u003ci>WHRO\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/ice-taps-into-nationwide-ai-enabled-camera-network-data-shows/\">ICE Taps into Nationwide AI-Enabled Camera Network, Data Shows\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler & Joseph Cox, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/04/24/who-is-paint-bombing-oaklands-flock-cameras/\">Who is paint bombing Oakland’s Flock cameras?\u003c/a> — Eli Wolfe, \u003ci>The Oaklandside\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/across-the-us-people-are-dismantling\">Across the US, people are dismantling and destroying Flock surveillance cameras\u003c/a> — Brian Merchant, \u003ci>Blood In The Machine\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-car-break-in-data-18639763.php\">Has S.F. cracked how to fix the car break-in crisis? Here’s what is driving the decline\u003c/a> — Rachel Swan, \u003ci>San Francisco Chronicle \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE. They do what they want. So don’t believe anybody who says this information is private and secure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building. It was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, thanks to one agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would allow the controversial surveillance tech company to continue running its network of AI-powered license plate readers throughout the county — including unincorporated areas outside of cities like Oakland and Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The contract expired last summer. If approved, the extension would buy another three months of Flock surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The room was packed with residents, from Oakland to Castro Valley. Even more attended virtually to give comments. More than a hundred residents spoke during the meeting. Close All Tabs producer, Maya Cueva, was on the scene. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network that will track every single one of us, making a searchable database that tracks our movements. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country — not just in the Bay Area. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of the right to privacy, and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for. Alameda County residents of all ages have been fighting against Flock in their neighborhoods for a while. And some aren’t even able to vote yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name’s Narayan. I’m 17. I go by he/him pronouns, and I’m from East Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylyn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, my names Kaylyn. I’m 17 years old, and I live in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tyson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Tyson, I’m 18, he/him pronouns, and I live in Albany. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m here to stop the implementation and extending of a Flock contract in my county. Flock is a multi-billion dollar corporation that is focused on hyper surveillance of people, and we’ve already seen that it is in the wrong hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three years ago, Alameda County leaders approved a contract to install 100 plate readers throughout the county. Berkeley has just over 30, and Oakland recently approved a $2 million contract for nearly 300 more cameras in the city. Other residents have been speaking out about the issue for years now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been fighting Flock since 2023, but now it’s a lot more in the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of people have become a lot aware of the surveillance systems that are being used to surveil them, to watch and kidnap their community members. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ramesh Sridharan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We don’t want mass surveillance. We should be investing in communities. We should be spending our money on that as opposed to programs like Flock, which contribute to a surveillance state and have no evidence of actually reducing crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But some residents spoke in support of extending Flock’s contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert Battinich: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was raised in San Leandro for 25 years. I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The board of supervisors kept calling for decorum when attendees clapped for anti-Flock speakers. So one resident used his allotted time to scold the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ralph Brown: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it seems like a majority of you are just ready to reject the overwhelming majority of your residents who are telling you to vote “no” on this contract, not spend $300,000 plus more dollars to extend this contract and basically just say- tell us to go fuck ourselves, is what I’m hearing from you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meeting lasted hours — and after all that, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash we’re seeing against Flock in Alameda County is part of a bigger nationwide fight against normalizing mass surveillance. Flock vandalism is up across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @wwmtnews on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Kalamazoo County Sheriff’s Office says someone intentionally cut down a Flock license plate reader camera along D Avenue in Cooper Township. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @WHAS11News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Auburn normally has 12 in the city, now they’re down two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @tmj4 on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take a close look at this automatic license plate reading camera, and you’ll notice gold paint covering the lens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People have put stickers over the cameras’ lenses, covered them with trash bags, paintbombed entire devices, and joked online about pointing lasers at the cameras to destroy the sensors. In Oregon, someone cut down six poles holding Flock cameras, leaving a note that said, quote, “Hahaha get wrecked you surveilling fucks.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @KEZI9News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No arrests have been made in either jurisdiction, but this is considered criminal mischief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s local news station KEZI 9, which actually broadcasted the uncensored note. But aside from resorting to “criminal mischief,” how else are people fighting the installation of these cameras in their neighborhoods? Today, we’re digging into the heated debate around Flock cameras: what exactly they’re doing with your data and why this might matter more than you think. Ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly. Let’s open a new tab: Why is Flock so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city took action around 2024. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay. After the break, Flock’s data breach. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab: The Palo Alto Flock scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[bangs gavel] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for today’s deep dive. But, as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs about Flock Safety and all of its controversies, check out our show notes. We have some further reading there. But for now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced and field-reported by Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience and engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and materon Milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode includes clips from WWMT News, WHAS-11, TMJ4 News, KEZI 9, Benn Jordan, and Forbes. Special thanks to Rosalyn Romero and Riley Cooke, and everyone we spoke to at the Alameda County Board of Supervisors meeting. Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the past couple of months, it’s mostly been organized demonstrations, and there’s been a sign that’s been going around that says, “GTFO: Get the Flock Out,” which I think is pretty funny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates worried about a creeping surveillance state and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan talks to Bay Area reporters Roselyn Romero and Riley Cooke about the fight over Flock spreading throughout the region, what we still don’t know about how Flock’s data is used and how some residents are finding creative ways to push back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560783367\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/author/roselyn-romero/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roselyn Romero\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, public safety journalist at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oaklandside \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltoonline.com/author/rcookeembarcaderopublishing-com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Palo Alto Weekly \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB0gr7Fh6lY\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We Hacked Flock Safety Cameras in under 30 Seconds \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Benn Jordan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://sanjosespotlight.com/palo-alto-license-plate-data-searched-by-hundreds-of-out-of-state-agencies/\">Palo Alto license plate data searched by hundreds of out-of-state agencies\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Riley Cooke, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Palo Alto Weekly\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/05/28/flock-training-police-city-councils-webinar/\">Flock is quietly training Bay Area police to sway city leaders to buy surveillance tech\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Roselyn Romero, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>The Oaklandside \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/flock-exposed-its-ai-powered-cameras-to-the-internet-we-tracked-ourselves/\">Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jason Koebler, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://knock-la.com/does-flock-safety-keep-women-safe/\">Does Flock Safety Keep Women Safe?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jayme Kusyk, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Knock LA\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://ij.org/police-have-reportedly-used-license-plate-readers-to-stalk-romantic-interests-at-least-14-times-in-recent-years/\">Police Have Reportedly Used License Plate Readers to Stalk Romantic Interests at Least 21 Times in Recent Years \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> —\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Christopher Ingraham, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Institute for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2026/05/21/home-depot-lowes-downplay-customer-surveillance-threats-flock-cameras-immigration/\">Home Depot and Lowe’s Downplay Customer Surveillance Threats\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Whitney Curry Wimbish, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The American Prospect\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whro.org/business-growth/2026-01-20/flock-cameras-in-hampton-roads-surveil-black-communities-more-intensely-than-white-ones-cnu-study-says\">Flock cameras in Hampton Roads surveil Black communities more intensely than white ones, CNU study says\u003c/a> — Toby Cox, \u003ci>WHRO\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/ice-taps-into-nationwide-ai-enabled-camera-network-data-shows/\">ICE Taps into Nationwide AI-Enabled Camera Network, Data Shows\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler & Joseph Cox, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/04/24/who-is-paint-bombing-oaklands-flock-cameras/\">Who is paint bombing Oakland’s Flock cameras?\u003c/a> — Eli Wolfe, \u003ci>The Oaklandside\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/across-the-us-people-are-dismantling\">Across the US, people are dismantling and destroying Flock surveillance cameras\u003c/a> — Brian Merchant, \u003ci>Blood In The Machine\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-car-break-in-data-18639763.php\">Has S.F. cracked how to fix the car break-in crisis? Here’s what is driving the decline\u003c/a> — Rachel Swan, \u003ci>San Francisco Chronicle \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE. They do what they want. So don’t believe anybody who says this information is private and secure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building. It was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, thanks to one agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would allow the controversial surveillance tech company to continue running its network of AI-powered license plate readers throughout the county — including unincorporated areas outside of cities like Oakland and Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The contract expired last summer. If approved, the extension would buy another three months of Flock surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The room was packed with residents, from Oakland to Castro Valley. Even more attended virtually to give comments. More than a hundred residents spoke during the meeting. Close All Tabs producer, Maya Cueva, was on the scene. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network that will track every single one of us, making a searchable database that tracks our movements. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country — not just in the Bay Area. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of the right to privacy, and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for. Alameda County residents of all ages have been fighting against Flock in their neighborhoods for a while. And some aren’t even able to vote yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name’s Narayan. I’m 17. I go by he/him pronouns, and I’m from East Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylyn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, my names Kaylyn. I’m 17 years old, and I live in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tyson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Tyson, I’m 18, he/him pronouns, and I live in Albany. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m here to stop the implementation and extending of a Flock contract in my county. Flock is a multi-billion dollar corporation that is focused on hyper surveillance of people, and we’ve already seen that it is in the wrong hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three years ago, Alameda County leaders approved a contract to install 100 plate readers throughout the county. Berkeley has just over 30, and Oakland recently approved a $2 million contract for nearly 300 more cameras in the city. Other residents have been speaking out about the issue for years now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been fighting Flock since 2023, but now it’s a lot more in the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of people have become a lot aware of the surveillance systems that are being used to surveil them, to watch and kidnap their community members. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ramesh Sridharan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We don’t want mass surveillance. We should be investing in communities. We should be spending our money on that as opposed to programs like Flock, which contribute to a surveillance state and have no evidence of actually reducing crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But some residents spoke in support of extending Flock’s contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert Battinich: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was raised in San Leandro for 25 years. I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The board of supervisors kept calling for decorum when attendees clapped for anti-Flock speakers. So one resident used his allotted time to scold the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ralph Brown: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it seems like a majority of you are just ready to reject the overwhelming majority of your residents who are telling you to vote “no” on this contract, not spend $300,000 plus more dollars to extend this contract and basically just say- tell us to go fuck ourselves, is what I’m hearing from you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meeting lasted hours — and after all that, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash we’re seeing against Flock in Alameda County is part of a bigger nationwide fight against normalizing mass surveillance. Flock vandalism is up across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @wwmtnews on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Kalamazoo County Sheriff’s Office says someone intentionally cut down a Flock license plate reader camera along D Avenue in Cooper Township. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @WHAS11News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Auburn normally has 12 in the city, now they’re down two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @tmj4 on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take a close look at this automatic license plate reading camera, and you’ll notice gold paint covering the lens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People have put stickers over the cameras’ lenses, covered them with trash bags, paintbombed entire devices, and joked online about pointing lasers at the cameras to destroy the sensors. In Oregon, someone cut down six poles holding Flock cameras, leaving a note that said, quote, “Hahaha get wrecked you surveilling fucks.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @KEZI9News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No arrests have been made in either jurisdiction, but this is considered criminal mischief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s local news station KEZI 9, which actually broadcasted the uncensored note. But aside from resorting to “criminal mischief,” how else are people fighting the installation of these cameras in their neighborhoods? Today, we’re digging into the heated debate around Flock cameras: what exactly they’re doing with your data and why this might matter more than you think. Ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly. Let’s open a new tab: Why is Flock so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city took action around 2024. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay. After the break, Flock’s data breach. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab: The Palo Alto Flock scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[bangs gavel] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for today’s deep dive. But, as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs about Flock Safety and all of its controversies, check out our show notes. We have some further reading there. But for now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced and field-reported by Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience and engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and materon Milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode includes clips from WWMT News, WHAS-11, TMJ4 News, KEZI 9, Benn Jordan, and Forbes. Special thanks to Rosalyn Romero and Riley Cooke, and everyone we spoke to at the Alameda County Board of Supervisors meeting. Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the past couple of months, it’s mostly been organized demonstrations, and there’s been a sign that’s been going around that says, “GTFO: Get the Flock Out,” which I think is pretty funny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone seems to have an opinion about AI, but what about those who will likely be affected most — recent graduates?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This cohort of grads is unique. They remember what classrooms were like before the emergence of ChatGPT in 2022, and have seen how it transformed the education world seemingly overnight. Today, we hear from three recent graduates in the Bay Area about their thoughts on AI, how it affected their education, and how they feel about their futures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This week, we’re sharing a recent \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12085502/three-recent-graduates-share-their-thoughts-on-ai\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">episode\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from KQED podcast \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — a show that takes an in-depth look at stories from across the SF Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2030502225\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in … basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, it’s Morgan. So, Close All Tabs is on vacation this week. Shocking, I know! We do log off sometimes. Or at least, we try to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But don’t worry — we still have an episode for you today. On Close All Tabs, we’re always talking about AI … from the way data centers are changing local communities, to the drama that industry billionaires are getting themselves into. About a year ago, we dove into how some teachers are dealing with the AI boom in their classrooms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re gonna hear the other side of that story, from young people who’ve been in the thick of it, but don’t always get to share their perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our friends at The Bay, another KQED podcast, spoke to a few recent college graduates about AI. This is a unique cohort of students: they remember what classrooms were like before ChatGPT, and they’ve seen how much it’s changed learning. They spoke to The Bay about how AI affected their college experience, and how they feel about entering the workforce in such rapidly changing industries. What are they really thinking about their futures? What’s on their minds?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, here’s Three Recent Graduates Share Their Thoughts on AI, from \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. I graduated from college 13 years ago, and I gotta be honest, no disrespect, but I don’t remember who the commencement speaker was or what they talked about. Most graduation speeches have the same themes. Some message about hope. Thanking your friends and family, the importance of following your passion, and perhaps a call to change the world for the better. But this graduation season has felt a little different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gloria Caulfield:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been several videos of students booing commencement speakers when they mention AI. These videos have gone viral.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Schmidt:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Time magazine selected its person of the year for 2025. And it was this time, it was the architects of artificial intelligence. Interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Scott Borschetta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> AI is rewriting production as we sit here. I know it, deal with it. Like I said, it’s a tool. Hey, like I said. You can hear me now or you can pay me later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today’s college graduates were in school when ChatGPT was first released in late 2022. They’ve seen it change their classrooms. Today, three recent graduates in the Bay Area tell us how they really feel about AI and about their futures.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellena Simentel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Ellena Simentel. I graduated with my master’s in kinesiology from San Francisco State.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kinesiology is the study of muscle movement. It’s very interdisciplinary, so there’s kind of a lot of different aspects in the field. So we do like sports psychology. You can go into physical therapy, athletic training, occupational therapy. I wanted to be a physical therapist. I’ve been to a little bit more recently. So I did focus mostly on like muscle physiology classes and that types of things. But now I think I wanna go more into a little bit more of the psychological motivational side, either doing some kind of city planning that has to do with getting people moving, or maybe even working for some type of nonprofit like Girls on the Run or things that get people active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even in undergrad we take our core class which is like one of the classes that teaches you like how to read and write in the field of kinesiology and that type of thing and midway through the semester I want to say this was like 2023. Our professor had actually changed the entire course of the class to focus on AI because it had like kind of just come out and she was like you And all of us at that point were kind of like, oh, you know, like, it’ll come and go, it is what it is. But what’s funny sitting back and looking at it now, it’s like, I feel like she really changed the class for a reason. I think it helped a lot of us just kind of get a grasp on what is AI, how to use it, the advantages maybe and some of the disadvantages. And so I obviously only took that class once, but I hope that they continue to do that for that class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s good to have immediate feedback, right? That’s, I think, one of the biggest advantages as a student. You don’t have to wait for your professor. It’s very individualized and you can really use it to fix specific things in your writing, for example, like writing essays. I think it’s a great tool to make you sound professional, help fix your grammar, maybe help you with the formatting. Um, the problem and the drawback is just sometimes it takes over your thinking. You it’s, it’s very easy to just put something in and be like, okay, now write me an essay, but there’s no thought that goes into that. There’s no critical thinking that goes in to that. Um, and at the end of the day, like it’s kind of taking away from the learning itself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m definitely less worried than other fields. I think there’s some careers in kinesiology, like if you wanted to be an athletic trainer or maybe like a personal trainer, there’s definitely a chance that AI could swoop in and take some of your clients. You can ask for a workout routine on ChatGPT so easily. However, The motivational aspect that comes with kinesiology and sports psychology that we learn with our degree I think is more helpful than talking to something online and just kind of having that like one-on-one human support is a lot more personalized. For example, like I worked in the athletic training department for a little bit and you can feel the difference in muscle when like a muscle is tense and you can kind with tell. What it needs, AI is not gonna be hands-on like that. And so having that human interaction in this field specifically is really helpful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say though that there’s just so much negativity around it and it’s kind of hard to take yourself out of the online discourse. My friend works out in this athletic studio with some of these tech guys and they talk the pros and the cons and like how people are being let go and and you know But at the same time, maybe there’s some jobs that AI should take over. Do people really need to be coding all day every day sitting on a computer? Maybe there’s things that humans shouldn’t be doing, like computer work all day. Maybe we need to go back outside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m looking forward to seeing what’s out there, right? I live in San Francisco currently and I can’t really see myself. Moving away anytime soon. I think there’s just so much to experience and so many people to meet. Global pandemic, like I was in college, I was taking like 20 units a semester. Every semester I was summer classes, winter classes, and I really chased the academic route. I just turned 24 and I have my master’s and I don’t think a lot of people can say that. And so I think now kind of like finding what it is exactly that I want to do with it and kind of just getting more experience in the field is really exciting to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ada He: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Ada He, and I’m currently a fourth year student at UC San Diego set to graduate on June 14th. My hometown is San Jose in the Bay Area, and I’m currently studying cognitive science with a specialization in machine learning and neural computation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So just to boil down to simple terms, it’s basically the study of intelligence, and it’s super duper relevant for machine learning, understanding these computational models of intelligence. The reason that I chose it and specifically the machine learning and neural computation track was because I think in high school I knew that I was curious about technology but I was also curious about more so the neuroscience and psychology side of things. And so I think I was kind of struck by this idea of like what is intelligence, how can we model it computationally and I think at the time even then there were starting to be like these buzzwords around ML and like AI and how this is going to be the next big thing of the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so… Very practical future-oriented parents were like, you, our child, should definitely study something related to technology. And I was like, well, I’m not quite sure, so let me pick this broader major that has to do with technology, but also kind of has to do more with like the philosophy and the psychology and like the ethics of what these systems are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when I first started in college, basically the only place that I was hearing about machine learning, artificial intelligence as a whole was through theory in my coursework. But I think all of it was very much creative and like human driven. I think where I really started hearing about these AI tools that were in mass production was during my second year of college. So I think in that time, that was when ChatGPT was sort of like released to Apollo can never start using it and it became like the big thing. And suddenly it felt like everyone was talking about chatgbc like, oh hey, it’s pretty smart, it can do all these things. In my third year of college then, like after the summer when we came back to school, then it was taking off and everyone was using it in their classes, everyone’s like asking it questions, and they were using it to code in my programming classes, they were asking it for essay advice, and then I think that was when I started to think like wait, isn’t that an academic integrity violation and then so is AI just being used to like help us cheat now? Started out in this very humanistic direction, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was using AI as a tool to investigate these hypotheses and to see if I could get it to predict the patterns that I could predict. They were supposed to be these helpful tools that would help us diagnose bigger problems that were facing people. I’ve heard of applications of AI to chart patterns of climate change. So in my head, I just thought AI and ML had so much potential to be used for good. With ChatGPT, I know it’s like- There’s so much progress now going on in the area of large language models that I wonder if the other areas of AI and other use cases are being neglected. This seems like all research is funneling into how these large language models can help us replace white collar jobs. And I’m like, when did that become the focus of artificial intelligence and machine learning?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I’ve been searching for a full-time job since January. As a student who is looking for a white collar job, it’s been very very very distressing to hear all the discourse that AI is meant to replace the work that I’ve spent four years studying. I think I honestly lost track by half to have applied for more than 300 jobs at this point. Just knowing that like the odds of getting a job are so slim even if you do get a callback and then seeing the number of callbacks I’m getting compared to the number applications I put out, that is kind of insane to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do have summer jobs lined up. I’m currently like a student employee at the UC San Diego library. And I think like I’ve been really fortunate to have that environment because working for the web team there feels very meaningful since the work we do is like all done by hand. We have a very intentional design approach and the goal of all the work that I put out there is to serve the student body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think everything that I’ve made there has made me like feel good and I don’t like feel as much like moral confusion when I think about continuing that work this summer. But that rule runs until September, so I know that I have wiggle rooms trying to figure things out somewhat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every generation has faced its demons and maybe the world of AI slop these like powerfully generative tools are kind of one of the demons that my generation has to face in the sense that we have to figure out where it fits into our lives and where it fits into workflows without compromising our morals because they might be here to stay. And then we also have to figure out how to deal with them in our daily, day-to-day work, because that’s probably gonna be an inseparable part of it, whether we like it or not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aaron Kim: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Aaron Kim. I graduated from UC Berkeley with a major in political science. I came in through the community college route and I started community college in 2019. So I had a couple of years to see like at least in community college, like what higher education was like before AI, then it dropped. And then I saw everyone kind of like scrambling to react to it. It was really interesting watching the different ways professors would try to handle it. Some of them just had like a no AI policy. Others had like a, you have to use AI policy. My gosh, yeah. I remember really early on, there was a professor that told me that like, or that told the class that don’t use AI. I can tell if you use AI because it’ll take your essay, put it in ChatGPT and ask it if it wrote it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been a bit of a consensus that’s settled around AI, where professors just kind of understood that it’s here. So they got more specific on how we’re supposed to use it. So they’re like, oh, you can use it as a writing assistant. You can use as to help start your research, but don’t use it a source and don’t make it do all your writing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I know some people that are really hardline against it, I kind of agree with them for the most part. Like I think that AI especially, it’s not very sustainable. I feel like it’s sometimes people over-rely on it, which I’ve seen a lot. But I’ve also seen it level the playing field, especially for like ESL speakers. Sometimes I’ll see people who are like in higher education and they’re like not speaking English as a first language I I remember before AI they were excuse my language, but they were basically just shit out of luck. They were gonna be judged the same as like a native English speaker and like sometimes like it just like people were not nice about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’m like a first-gen college student, so I I just kind of went to college because I don’t know, I didn’t really know why I was going. I just did it. I’m not one of those people that was like, oh yeah, I’m gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or a dentist. I ended up doing a lot of stuff in the union world and the labor world and like the community organizing world, which is why I think AI has affected me a little less personally, like a little less directly because none of the jobs that I was really looking for are really AI exposed as much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luckily I’m one of these people, but I do think the implementation of AI in the economy has like, I’ve received a lot of the downwind effects. I think a lot tasks are having AI implemented into it. And because of that, I think there’s just less need for a lot of entry level positions that existed in the past. My friends and I joke about it being a “nepo economy” right now, because there’s just like, nobody’s getting jobs through applications, at least not a lot. It’s just all like, you have to know somebody and that’s how you’re getting jobs. I’m still trying to really figure out what direction I want to go for that. But right now I’m just like trying to find something in social impact, you know, nonprofits or unions, um, which is just because that’s like, you know, where my heart was at during college. And that’s where a lot of my experience was at. But yeah, at this point, I think I just kind of have to try to keep an open mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just don’t really think this sort of like innovation is really helping most people in a way that’s really substantial. Like I feel like, yeah, it’s like making things more convenient for a lot of us in like really minor ways, but I just feel like, like, was this all necessary? But it’s like here and we can’t like press, there’s no undo button for things like this, so I guess I just kind of have to adapt. Luckily, in terms of my personal career trajectory, it still feels pretty peripheral. Because a lot of the organizations I’m interested in working for are concerned with working people-centered kind of policies, I think mass, uncritical, enthusiastic adoption of AI is just something that hopefully a lot them just wouldn’t do. Like how would you feel if you’re like working and your union rep is like a chat GPT, like an iPad on the like a little thing that rolls around and tries to get you to sign union cards, right? Like that’s kind of something that AI can never take away. It’s like, because of so much of organizing job or so much organizing is based on building trust human to human, you know? And that’s just something AI can ever do…I hope!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Ellena Simentel, Ada He, and Aaron Kim. This episode was cut down and edited by me, and producer Jessica Kariisa. It was also produced by Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Additional support from Pauline Bartoloni. Music courtesy of Audio Network. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to get in touch with us at The Bay, send us an email at TheBay@KQED.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay is a production of KQED Public Media in San Francisco. You can help power our show by becoming a member at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! It’s Morgan again. You can listen to more of The Bay wherever you get your podcasts! We’ll be back next week with a brand new episode of Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Everyone seems to have an opinion about AI, but what about those who will likely be affected most — recent graduates? This cohort of grads is unique. They remember what classrooms were like before the emergence of ChatGPT in 2022, and have seen how it transformed the education world seemingly overnight. Today, we hear from three recent graduates in the Bay Area about their thoughts on AI, how it affected their education, and how they feel about their futures. This week, we’re sharing a recent episode from KQED podcast The Bay — a show that takes an in-depth look at stories from across the SF Bay Area.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone seems to have an opinion about AI, but what about those who will likely be affected most — recent graduates?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This cohort of grads is unique. They remember what classrooms were like before the emergence of ChatGPT in 2022, and have seen how it transformed the education world seemingly overnight. Today, we hear from three recent graduates in the Bay Area about their thoughts on AI, how it affected their education, and how they feel about their futures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This week, we’re sharing a recent \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12085502/three-recent-graduates-share-their-thoughts-on-ai\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">episode\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from KQED podcast \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — a show that takes an in-depth look at stories from across the SF Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2030502225\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in … basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, it’s Morgan. So, Close All Tabs is on vacation this week. Shocking, I know! We do log off sometimes. Or at least, we try to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But don’t worry — we still have an episode for you today. On Close All Tabs, we’re always talking about AI … from the way data centers are changing local communities, to the drama that industry billionaires are getting themselves into. About a year ago, we dove into how some teachers are dealing with the AI boom in their classrooms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re gonna hear the other side of that story, from young people who’ve been in the thick of it, but don’t always get to share their perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our friends at The Bay, another KQED podcast, spoke to a few recent college graduates about AI. This is a unique cohort of students: they remember what classrooms were like before ChatGPT, and they’ve seen how much it’s changed learning. They spoke to The Bay about how AI affected their college experience, and how they feel about entering the workforce in such rapidly changing industries. What are they really thinking about their futures? What’s on their minds?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, here’s Three Recent Graduates Share Their Thoughts on AI, from \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. I graduated from college 13 years ago, and I gotta be honest, no disrespect, but I don’t remember who the commencement speaker was or what they talked about. Most graduation speeches have the same themes. Some message about hope. Thanking your friends and family, the importance of following your passion, and perhaps a call to change the world for the better. But this graduation season has felt a little different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gloria Caulfield:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been several videos of students booing commencement speakers when they mention AI. These videos have gone viral.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Schmidt:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Time magazine selected its person of the year for 2025. And it was this time, it was the architects of artificial intelligence. Interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Scott Borschetta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> AI is rewriting production as we sit here. I know it, deal with it. Like I said, it’s a tool. Hey, like I said. You can hear me now or you can pay me later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today’s college graduates were in school when ChatGPT was first released in late 2022. They’ve seen it change their classrooms. Today, three recent graduates in the Bay Area tell us how they really feel about AI and about their futures.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellena Simentel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Ellena Simentel. I graduated with my master’s in kinesiology from San Francisco State.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kinesiology is the study of muscle movement. It’s very interdisciplinary, so there’s kind of a lot of different aspects in the field. So we do like sports psychology. You can go into physical therapy, athletic training, occupational therapy. I wanted to be a physical therapist. I’ve been to a little bit more recently. So I did focus mostly on like muscle physiology classes and that types of things. But now I think I wanna go more into a little bit more of the psychological motivational side, either doing some kind of city planning that has to do with getting people moving, or maybe even working for some type of nonprofit like Girls on the Run or things that get people active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even in undergrad we take our core class which is like one of the classes that teaches you like how to read and write in the field of kinesiology and that type of thing and midway through the semester I want to say this was like 2023. Our professor had actually changed the entire course of the class to focus on AI because it had like kind of just come out and she was like you And all of us at that point were kind of like, oh, you know, like, it’ll come and go, it is what it is. But what’s funny sitting back and looking at it now, it’s like, I feel like she really changed the class for a reason. I think it helped a lot of us just kind of get a grasp on what is AI, how to use it, the advantages maybe and some of the disadvantages. And so I obviously only took that class once, but I hope that they continue to do that for that class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s good to have immediate feedback, right? That’s, I think, one of the biggest advantages as a student. You don’t have to wait for your professor. It’s very individualized and you can really use it to fix specific things in your writing, for example, like writing essays. I think it’s a great tool to make you sound professional, help fix your grammar, maybe help you with the formatting. Um, the problem and the drawback is just sometimes it takes over your thinking. You it’s, it’s very easy to just put something in and be like, okay, now write me an essay, but there’s no thought that goes into that. There’s no critical thinking that goes in to that. Um, and at the end of the day, like it’s kind of taking away from the learning itself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m definitely less worried than other fields. I think there’s some careers in kinesiology, like if you wanted to be an athletic trainer or maybe like a personal trainer, there’s definitely a chance that AI could swoop in and take some of your clients. You can ask for a workout routine on ChatGPT so easily. However, The motivational aspect that comes with kinesiology and sports psychology that we learn with our degree I think is more helpful than talking to something online and just kind of having that like one-on-one human support is a lot more personalized. For example, like I worked in the athletic training department for a little bit and you can feel the difference in muscle when like a muscle is tense and you can kind with tell. What it needs, AI is not gonna be hands-on like that. And so having that human interaction in this field specifically is really helpful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say though that there’s just so much negativity around it and it’s kind of hard to take yourself out of the online discourse. My friend works out in this athletic studio with some of these tech guys and they talk the pros and the cons and like how people are being let go and and you know But at the same time, maybe there’s some jobs that AI should take over. Do people really need to be coding all day every day sitting on a computer? Maybe there’s things that humans shouldn’t be doing, like computer work all day. Maybe we need to go back outside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m looking forward to seeing what’s out there, right? I live in San Francisco currently and I can’t really see myself. Moving away anytime soon. I think there’s just so much to experience and so many people to meet. Global pandemic, like I was in college, I was taking like 20 units a semester. Every semester I was summer classes, winter classes, and I really chased the academic route. I just turned 24 and I have my master’s and I don’t think a lot of people can say that. And so I think now kind of like finding what it is exactly that I want to do with it and kind of just getting more experience in the field is really exciting to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ada He: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Ada He, and I’m currently a fourth year student at UC San Diego set to graduate on June 14th. My hometown is San Jose in the Bay Area, and I’m currently studying cognitive science with a specialization in machine learning and neural computation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So just to boil down to simple terms, it’s basically the study of intelligence, and it’s super duper relevant for machine learning, understanding these computational models of intelligence. The reason that I chose it and specifically the machine learning and neural computation track was because I think in high school I knew that I was curious about technology but I was also curious about more so the neuroscience and psychology side of things. And so I think I was kind of struck by this idea of like what is intelligence, how can we model it computationally and I think at the time even then there were starting to be like these buzzwords around ML and like AI and how this is going to be the next big thing of the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so… Very practical future-oriented parents were like, you, our child, should definitely study something related to technology. And I was like, well, I’m not quite sure, so let me pick this broader major that has to do with technology, but also kind of has to do more with like the philosophy and the psychology and like the ethics of what these systems are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when I first started in college, basically the only place that I was hearing about machine learning, artificial intelligence as a whole was through theory in my coursework. But I think all of it was very much creative and like human driven. I think where I really started hearing about these AI tools that were in mass production was during my second year of college. So I think in that time, that was when ChatGPT was sort of like released to Apollo can never start using it and it became like the big thing. And suddenly it felt like everyone was talking about chatgbc like, oh hey, it’s pretty smart, it can do all these things. In my third year of college then, like after the summer when we came back to school, then it was taking off and everyone was using it in their classes, everyone’s like asking it questions, and they were using it to code in my programming classes, they were asking it for essay advice, and then I think that was when I started to think like wait, isn’t that an academic integrity violation and then so is AI just being used to like help us cheat now? Started out in this very humanistic direction, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was using AI as a tool to investigate these hypotheses and to see if I could get it to predict the patterns that I could predict. They were supposed to be these helpful tools that would help us diagnose bigger problems that were facing people. I’ve heard of applications of AI to chart patterns of climate change. So in my head, I just thought AI and ML had so much potential to be used for good. With ChatGPT, I know it’s like- There’s so much progress now going on in the area of large language models that I wonder if the other areas of AI and other use cases are being neglected. This seems like all research is funneling into how these large language models can help us replace white collar jobs. And I’m like, when did that become the focus of artificial intelligence and machine learning?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I’ve been searching for a full-time job since January. As a student who is looking for a white collar job, it’s been very very very distressing to hear all the discourse that AI is meant to replace the work that I’ve spent four years studying. I think I honestly lost track by half to have applied for more than 300 jobs at this point. Just knowing that like the odds of getting a job are so slim even if you do get a callback and then seeing the number of callbacks I’m getting compared to the number applications I put out, that is kind of insane to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do have summer jobs lined up. I’m currently like a student employee at the UC San Diego library. And I think like I’ve been really fortunate to have that environment because working for the web team there feels very meaningful since the work we do is like all done by hand. We have a very intentional design approach and the goal of all the work that I put out there is to serve the student body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think everything that I’ve made there has made me like feel good and I don’t like feel as much like moral confusion when I think about continuing that work this summer. But that rule runs until September, so I know that I have wiggle rooms trying to figure things out somewhat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every generation has faced its demons and maybe the world of AI slop these like powerfully generative tools are kind of one of the demons that my generation has to face in the sense that we have to figure out where it fits into our lives and where it fits into workflows without compromising our morals because they might be here to stay. And then we also have to figure out how to deal with them in our daily, day-to-day work, because that’s probably gonna be an inseparable part of it, whether we like it or not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aaron Kim: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Aaron Kim. I graduated from UC Berkeley with a major in political science. I came in through the community college route and I started community college in 2019. So I had a couple of years to see like at least in community college, like what higher education was like before AI, then it dropped. And then I saw everyone kind of like scrambling to react to it. It was really interesting watching the different ways professors would try to handle it. Some of them just had like a no AI policy. Others had like a, you have to use AI policy. My gosh, yeah. I remember really early on, there was a professor that told me that like, or that told the class that don’t use AI. I can tell if you use AI because it’ll take your essay, put it in ChatGPT and ask it if it wrote it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been a bit of a consensus that’s settled around AI, where professors just kind of understood that it’s here. So they got more specific on how we’re supposed to use it. So they’re like, oh, you can use it as a writing assistant. You can use as to help start your research, but don’t use it a source and don’t make it do all your writing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I know some people that are really hardline against it, I kind of agree with them for the most part. Like I think that AI especially, it’s not very sustainable. I feel like it’s sometimes people over-rely on it, which I’ve seen a lot. But I’ve also seen it level the playing field, especially for like ESL speakers. Sometimes I’ll see people who are like in higher education and they’re like not speaking English as a first language I I remember before AI they were excuse my language, but they were basically just shit out of luck. They were gonna be judged the same as like a native English speaker and like sometimes like it just like people were not nice about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’m like a first-gen college student, so I I just kind of went to college because I don’t know, I didn’t really know why I was going. I just did it. I’m not one of those people that was like, oh yeah, I’m gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or a dentist. I ended up doing a lot of stuff in the union world and the labor world and like the community organizing world, which is why I think AI has affected me a little less personally, like a little less directly because none of the jobs that I was really looking for are really AI exposed as much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luckily I’m one of these people, but I do think the implementation of AI in the economy has like, I’ve received a lot of the downwind effects. I think a lot tasks are having AI implemented into it. And because of that, I think there’s just less need for a lot of entry level positions that existed in the past. My friends and I joke about it being a “nepo economy” right now, because there’s just like, nobody’s getting jobs through applications, at least not a lot. It’s just all like, you have to know somebody and that’s how you’re getting jobs. I’m still trying to really figure out what direction I want to go for that. But right now I’m just like trying to find something in social impact, you know, nonprofits or unions, um, which is just because that’s like, you know, where my heart was at during college. And that’s where a lot of my experience was at. But yeah, at this point, I think I just kind of have to try to keep an open mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just don’t really think this sort of like innovation is really helping most people in a way that’s really substantial. Like I feel like, yeah, it’s like making things more convenient for a lot of us in like really minor ways, but I just feel like, like, was this all necessary? But it’s like here and we can’t like press, there’s no undo button for things like this, so I guess I just kind of have to adapt. Luckily, in terms of my personal career trajectory, it still feels pretty peripheral. Because a lot of the organizations I’m interested in working for are concerned with working people-centered kind of policies, I think mass, uncritical, enthusiastic adoption of AI is just something that hopefully a lot them just wouldn’t do. Like how would you feel if you’re like working and your union rep is like a chat GPT, like an iPad on the like a little thing that rolls around and tries to get you to sign union cards, right? Like that’s kind of something that AI can never take away. It’s like, because of so much of organizing job or so much organizing is based on building trust human to human, you know? And that’s just something AI can ever do…I hope!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Ellena Simentel, Ada He, and Aaron Kim. This episode was cut down and edited by me, and producer Jessica Kariisa. It was also produced by Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Additional support from Pauline Bartoloni. Music courtesy of Audio Network. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to get in touch with us at The Bay, send us an email at TheBay@KQED.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay is a production of KQED Public Media in San Francisco. You can help power our show by becoming a member at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! It’s Morgan again. You can listen to more of The Bay wherever you get your podcasts! We’ll be back next week with a brand new episode of Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "The $55B Deal That Has Sims Players Worried",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When shareholders of gaming giant Electronic Arts approved an acquisition of the company by a group that includes Jared Kushner’s private equity firm and the Saudi Public Investment Fund late last year, it rocked the entertainment industry. The sale worth an estimated $55 billion sent the player community of the EA-owned game The Sims scrambling, afraid that a game known as a haven for LGBTQ+ expression might be changed for the worse. In this second part of our exploration of the inclusive history of The Sims franchise, we dive into what the deal might mean for the game, how it’s reshaping the future of the industry, and why a popular Sims streamer is ready to walk away from the game in protest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7131851733\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/lilsimsie\">Kayla Sims\u003c/a>, Twitch streamer and YouTuber known as “lilsimsie”\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/zefrine/\">Zefrine\u003c/a>, Twitch streamer and organizer with The Players Alliance\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Loel Phelps, senior game design director at Maxis\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jessica Croft, senior designer at EA on The Sims 4 \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083135/bay-area-gamers-rally-against-electronic-arts-55-billion-acquisition\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Area Gamers Rally Against Electronic Arts’ $55 Billion Acquisition\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/-gaming-is-the-new-oil-how-the-ea-buyout-diverges-from-the-traditional-playbook-\">‘Gaming is the new oil:’ How the EA buyout ‘diverges from the traditional playbook’\u003c/a> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003ci>Game Developer\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/rep-maxwell-frost-lilsimsie-stream-ea-saudi-arabia-interview/\">Congressman Teams Up With Popular Sims Streamer To Oppose Saudi Purchase Of EA\u003c/a> — Nathan Grayson, \u003ci>\u003ci>Aftermath\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/us-representative-maxwell-frost-voices-protest-over-saudi-buyout-of-ea\">US representative Maxwell Frost protests Saudi buyout of EA\u003c/a> — Diego Argüello, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Game Developer\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/games/816750/the-sims-ea-buyout-content-creator-program-departures-lilsimsie\">Sims streamers are distancing themselves from EA, but for some the choice is hard\u003c/a> — Ash Parrish\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>,\u003ci> The Verge\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://simscommunity.info/2026/06/17/ea-advertisement-brands-history/\">EA Advertisement Isn’t New: A Look Back At The Sims’ History With Brands (And What Comes Next)\u003c/a> — Callum Bowyer,\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> Sims Community\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cepr.net/publications/electronic-arts-and-private-equity/\">Private Equity’s EA Takeover: Corruption, Contradictions, and Exploitation\u003c/a> — Daniel Stone, \u003ci>Center for Economic and Policy Research\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sul Sul! That’s “hello” in Simlish. This is the second part of our deep dive into the queer history of The Sims. Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabbie or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us! Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a med pack in my backpack, so if anyone like, tweaks their ankle or falls or something, in this lower pouch there is a second pouch, you’ll find all sorts of medical stuff in there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In early May, a colorful group of gamers assembled in a grocery store parking lot in Redwood City, California — preparing to march on the headquarters of video game giant Electronic Arts. They called it a “raid,” which, in gaming terms, means a big battle with the intention of taking down the boss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This has concluded your safety brief. All right, woo! We did it! And then once you’re here, everybody look at me. We’re just going to grab a quick photo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a small group — maybe a dozen — but passionate. They’re part of an organization called The Players Alliance. They pulled up in elaborate costumes, with some wearing plumbobs, the gems from The Sims. Some wore the more common green ones, which float above the heads of happy Sims. But several in the group donned red plumbobs — typically seen on unhappy Sims, which is an iconic way to express anger toward The Sims’ parent company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The group had gathered to protest the $55 billion deal that would take EA private and transfer ownership to a group of investors that includes a firm led by Jared Kushner and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. The Players Alliance created an online petition addressed to U.S. Secretary Scott Bessent, calling on him to block the buyout. They had over 70,000 signatures by that point, printed on a comically long scroll. The plan? Rally other players, block the buyout, and, of course, stream the whole thing. Streamer and organizer, Kase Cosgrove, took the mic for much of the demonstration. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kase Cosgrove: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woo! Here we go! Welcome everyone! We are here to… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They staged a boss fight, which involved taking down giant cardboard heads of the guys in charge of the buyout. Picture a huge Jared Kushner cutout surrounded by disapproving gamers. Then, they turned to a cutout of EA CEO Andrew Wilson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traitor! Traitor! Traitor! He’s betraying you, he’s betraying us, he’s betraying the workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then came the big finale. The group unfurled the massive roll of paper printed with a portion of the 70,000 signatures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the gaming community. These are the people that signed their name on the dotted line that joined us. And I need you to know, this isn’t all of them. We have over 70,000 signatures — something we did in two months, not two years. I also want to add that this is 50 feet, a thousand signatures — this would span over a half mile at this size. It’s simply too big. And we’re only growing… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Rachel… Better known as Zefrine. She’s an organizer and Sims creator who spoke about why she opposes the buyout. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims is a game about life and like, that’s everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kase Cosgrove: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sims, the game about life, they should use that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All colors, all walks of life. Yeah, like all of that. And that’s why we’re here today. Like me specifically, for a myriad of reasons, not only for the integrity of the industry, the jobs, the security, and the more that they continue to just treat it like the cash cow that it’s viewed to be by people who don’t care about us — the more that those spaces are going to become inaccessible to people who can no longer afford them. I love this… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many gamers are concerned about the EA buyout — fearing employee layoffs, decreasing quality of games, and aggressive monetization. But for Sims players, the threat feels especially personal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mivyard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a bisexual, there weren’t a lot of games where you could just have anybody, romance anybody else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a Sims creator who goes by Mivyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mivyard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was really important for me, especially when I was younger. So this game has a really special place in my heart and just the thought of it being taken over by people who might want to censor that aspect and that representation for the community is really frightening. So, when the news about the buyout dropped, a lot of Simmers and Sims streamers were like, “Oh my god,” like, “What do we do?” Like, what action can we do to actually… have an effect on the situation? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this deal really entail? If it goes through, what are the consequences on the gaming industry and its workers? And, is there anything that can stop it? Last week, we dove into the queer history of The Sims. Today, we’re looking at the present reality of EA and the future of this beloved game. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picking up where we left off last week’s deep dive: let’s open another tab. What does The Sims mean to players? How many hours do you have logged on The Sims 4? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh dear, let me open it and I’ll find out. 10,522. And actually, it’s more than that, because I had like 1,700 hours in the Create A Sim demo as well — and then, now they’re all logged with The Sims 4 regular game, but doesn’t count those. So, it’s… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Probably like 12,000, which — yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. No, but like it’s my job, right? So it’s totally fine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kayla Sims. She’s a Twitch streamer and YouTuber better known as LilSimsie. She has millions of followers. Almost every day, like five to six days a week, viewers tune in to watch her play cozy games. Think: farming sims like Stardew Valley, or social games like Animal Crossing. These are games that revolve more around creativity, slowing down, and exploring. It’s the complete opposite of first-person shooters like Call of Duty and Halo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing Animal Crossing from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been playing Animal Crossing for a couple of weeks now on this channel and unfortunately my island is still really, really ugly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cozy games aren’t necessarily low stakes. One of the most popular games of the genre is The Sims. It’s a game where a lot can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh well, we decorated the tree… No!!! Why is this happening? Oh my god, the tree’s on fire! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims community is so different from other gamer circles online. At the Game Developer Conference in 2023, Phillip Ring, an executive producer for The Sims 4, gave a talk on developing DEI content in games. He cited a demographic study conducted by The Sims team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Phillip Ring from GDC Vault website]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">43% of our audience identify as members of the LGBTQIA+ community. And 38% of audience are people of color. That’s far exceeding traditional gaming demographics on these dimensions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And 64% of Sims players are cis women. 17% are gender fluid or trans. Just over 20% are cis men, which is incredibly rare in gaming, an industry that’s long been marketed to men. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Phillip Ring from GDC Vault website]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a tremendous testament to the progress that we are making towards The Sims being a place where all players can represent themselves and see the world as they imagine it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that sometimes gaming gets a bad reputation. People think about horrible hate speech being spewed in voice chats and stuff, but The Sims is just not like that. I think that actually a lot of marginalized folks kind of flock to The Sims because it is so welcoming and so accepting. And so, it’s just a really wholesome, wonderful place to be. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously it’s heavily made up by a lot queer folks, a lot people from the LGBTQ+ community are in The Sims community. There’s a lot of women in The Sims community as well. I think it’s just in general kind of a different demographic from a lot of other really major games titles, especially games titles that have been around for this long. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has The Sims meant to you throughout your life? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It might sound silly, but honestly, The Sims has meant everything to me. When I was a kid, I really had a hard time in middle school and high school. I was kind of having a lot of mental health struggles and then my dad got cancer, and I was really like, going through it when I was in school. And The Sims was a real escape for me back then — not just playing the game, but like the community as a whole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was almost like a utopia, right? Like I could like escape into this game where everything was fine. And it was a creative outlet for me to like, work on building houses and making characters and like, telling stories and stuff. And it’s kind of, I think, shaped me now and shaped my hobbies and my interests to this day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many Simmers, Kayla started playing The Sims as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I finally managed to convince my parents to buy it for me after a long time of begging. I was like, “No, this is like named after us. We need to play it,” you know? “It’s fate.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In high school, Kayla started taking video production classes. It was the mid-2010s. Reaction videos and short form content hadn’t taken over yet. This was the golden age of YouTube. Gaming playthroughs and daily vlogs were blowing up. Kayla loved watching them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is around the time that my dad was diagnosed with cancer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After months of being sick, her dad was diagnosed with an aggressive blood cancer. Kayla’s parents went to Tampa for treatment, leaving Kayla and her younger siblings with their grandparents, two hours away. And Kayla felt really alone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I was really looking, I think, for an outlet, and like, maybe also some community, because I was playing the game alone… And I think I was really like, kind of grasping to see if I could find some people that were like me and make some friends. So I started making videos just for fun and I really poured so much into it. I’ve spent all my free time playing the game and recording it and thinking about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At 16 years old, Kayla started posting videos of her attempt at completing the, “Sims 4: 100 Baby Challenge.” Basically, you have to birth and successfully raise 100 in-game babies. Once your Sim can no longer have babies, you pick an heir, get them pregnant, and keep going. The goal is to build a family tree with all 100 babies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everybody and welcome back to Part 3… I think? Of Let’s Play The Sims 4: 100 Baby Challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It took Kayla five years to finish the challenge. To be fair, she was also making other videos about The Sims: reviews, playthroughs, speed builds — but still, it was five years of her life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- It’s over. We- It’s done. We did it. Little did I know when I was 16 years old and starting this stupid challenge that I would be 21 when I finished it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the time it took Kayla to raise 100 in-game babies, her dad’s health stabilized, she built a huge following, and she found a community of fellow Simmers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I ended up making so many friends that are lifelong friends to this day, 10 years later. I was so shy and so anxious and to meet some of these other girls that were my same age, and they were also really shy and really anxious and having some similar mental health struggles, and they we’re also really into The Sims. And so, it was really, really powerful, I think, for me to make some friends that I felt like I could truly be myself with, because I don’t know if I had that in person and at school. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As her channel grew, Kayla started doing charity streams, fundraising for various causes. Her big one is an annual, month-long fundraising campaign for St. Jude’s Children’s Research Hospital. Just last month, she raised over a million dollars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">999,000! Woo! Oh my god! One million. *screaming*\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her dad often pops in for those streams. Fans call him PapaSimsie or LilDadsie. And every year, Kayla takes a break from playing The Sims while she and her mom shave her dad’s head, live on stream, as part of the fundraiser. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s embarrassed. Yeah. \u003cem>[laughing]\u003c/em> Of me? Of bald daddy? \u003cem>[more laughing]\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad’s kind of weird. I mean that in a good way. But, you know, he really hams it up for the camera. And I think that people enjoy that. He’s really gotten involved with some of those things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can call me bald daddy. Stop!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now, the whole Sims family is also involved in Sims content. It’s the Simsie-verse. Over the years, Kayla started working directly with Maxis, which is owned by EA. Back in the day, the company flew out Sims creators to play test games early and give feedback directly to developers. It was mutually beneficial — the creators got early access footage that they got to post, and Maxis got to drum up some promotion for upcoming game content. A symbiotic relationship, if you will. In her reviews, Kayla’s been a pretty harsh critic of the pre-made buildings in the earlier Sims expansion packs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s one build that just, like, never ceases to amaze me, and it comes in Get Famous. It’s like this celebrity mansion. There’s five bathrooms. No toilets. There’s like space for a toilet. They’ve — clearly, they meant to put it there, and they just didn’t put one. Why?\u003cem> [laughs] \u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The developers at Maxis were definitely keeping tabs on the criticism. So, they asked Kayla to work on a few builds for upcoming releases. She created three buildings for the expansion pack Snowy Escape, which came out in 2020. And then again, for another expansion pack a few years later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s all to say that Kayla’s life had become completely intertwined with The Sims. I mean, it’s her last name! Her parents were involved. She built a career out of playing this game. These playthroughs and reviews and silly challenges paid her bills. And, she played it in her free time, too. The Sims had become her job, but it was still the safe space that it was for her as an anxious, lonely teenager. Which is why she was so heartbroken when news of the EA buyout went public. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I couldn’t even believe it, to be honest, and I was so, so sad and scared. I mean, like, tears have been shed over this by me, because I feel like they’re tearing something away from us, you know? It’s really frustrating to have something that has been such a safe space for so long be bought out by people that are not safe. And I think that a lot of Sims players kind of echo that same sentiment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we know that this is a $55 billion deal — a truly unfathomable amount of money. Beyond the staggering price tag… what does this buyout really entail? Game studios are sold and acquired all the time — why are players so concerned about this one in particular? We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay, after the break: the EA buyouts and The Players Alliance. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the EA buyout, explained. In October, Kayla joins other major Sims creators in leaving the EA Creator Network. This is the official partnership program for The Sims, and it opens the doors to huge perks. Creators in the network get early access to game packs, an affiliate code to share with their followers, and invites to beta testing sessions and special events. Some creators in the network even get paid collaborations. Stepping down from the Creator Network means giving up a lot of opportunities for Simmers like Kayla. But, as she learned more about the buyout deal, she knew she couldn’t stay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Upon first seeing it, I was like, “I do not want this to happen, I hope that it will not go through, and I want people to be aware of what is going on.” I kind of in good conscience do not want to work with EA directly and like, support them behind the scenes or have any like, contractual obligation to them if this sale goes through. I had hoped that by a large creator like myself and also a bunch of other large Sims creators leaving the network, it would kind of take a huge stand and hopefully send signs to them about how much we do not want this to happen and how strongly we stand against it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the details of this deal. In September last year, EA announced that the brand and its catalog had been sold to an “investor consortium” in a $55 billion deal. This group of investors includes the tech-focused private equity firm Silver Lake, Jared Kushner’s Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. That’s the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund, led by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, this deal alone could buy the entire music industry. I think that sometimes we forget just how big gaming is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consortium didn’t publicly disclose the planned ownership breakdown. That part actually came from a filing with Brazil’s antitrust regulators — spotted by the Wall Street Journal. So, once EA is delisted from the NASDAQ, Affinity Partners will own just 1.1%, and Silver Lake will own 5.5%. The Saudi Public Investment Fund will own a whopping 93.4% of the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think, also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Saudi Arabia, engaging in same-sex relationships is punishable by flogging, and in some cases, death. Gender expression is also criminalized. Multiple human rights reports note that it’s “illegal for men to behave like women,” and “dress in women’s clothes,” and vice versa. Publicly advocating for the rights of LGBTQ people is also illegal, and those who do? They also face arrest and imprisonment. Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund, PIF, already owned almost 10% of EA prior to the buyout. Now, PIF will own the vast majority of EA and its portfolio — including The Sims, a game that’s been a haven for queer players. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims team has addressed the concerns. In October, they posted a statement to the game’s official channels, thanking players for being part of the community. They said, “Our mission, values, and commitment remain the same. The Sims will always be a space where you can express your authentic self.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our last episode, we talked to Loel Phelps, the senior design director for The Sims 4. As the self-described “shepherd of ideas” for the game, Loel has guided over a decade of updates and expansions to make The Sims more inclusive. I asked him about the concerns over how new ownership could change the game, particularly for queer players who found refuge in The Sims. Here’s what he wants players to know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Loel Phelps: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I believe in this team. The sec- like I said, the second I joined, I felt a very welcoming presence. I felt like there was a diverse group of people who are passionate creators, who have very different lived experiences from one another, just like everybody who’s here to play the game. So, inclusivity is foundational. It’s the lifeblood of who we are and the product we build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why would Saudi Arabia, a notoriously repressive country, want anything to do with a company behind the most explicitly queer game on the market? Well… The Sims is just a tiny piece of EA’s portfolio. I mean, EA Sports is its own division. It’s huge. Saudi Arabia has been a major investor in e-sports and video games. By investing in gaming, PIF is diversifying the Saudi economy beyond petroleum, while also buying global cultural relevance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As one business professor put it in an interview with the industry news site, Game Developer, “Gaming is the new oil.” The ripple effects go way beyond diversity and inclusion. It could fundamentally change the gaming industry as we know it. Okay, lock in. You’re about to get a lot of details. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the EA deal is the largest leveraged buyout in history. A leveraged buyout means that the buyer uses borrowed funds to acquire a company — almost like a mortgage. The buyer puts down the down payment and the bank finances the rest. Except, the buyer isn’t the one who has to pay it off. The company that was just bought does — using its own assets and revenues to pay off the debt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, $55 billion, right? The investment group that bought EA chipped in a collective $36 billion, but there’s almost $20 billion left. Where does that come from? Now we have a new player, JP Morgan Chase Bank, which financed the remaining $20 billion. Well, who’s going to pay back the bank? EA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a massive deal that’s being financed by $20 billion in debt that EA is going to have to carry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, EA actually makes a ton of money. In the 2025 fiscal year, the company pulled in nearly $7.5 billion of revenue. But their profit — what’s left after paying business costs — was just over $1.1 billion. And as multiple financial experts and market analysts have warned us, EA is probably going to have to make some pretty significant changes to pay off $20 billion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, they’re gonna need to pay that off quickly because the investors wanna make money. And people are really concerned about things like layoffs of a lot of the people that work at EA — possibly replacing them with AI, which would just ruin the heart and soul of the game. And it’s really scary, I think, as a step for the gaming industry as a whole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Days after it agreed to the deal, EA published an employee FAQ assuring workers that, quote, “There will be no changes to your job, team, or daily work as a result of this transaction.” This FAQ was actually made public in an SEC filing. Multiple experts have said that EA will likely double down on their existing revenue streams — sports franchises like Madden, cash cow mobile games that revolve around in-app purchases, and microtransactions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re already pricing a lot of people out. And if we have this new standard set — because now it’s the norm — I really am worried about it getting even worse and preventing people from being able to play these games. I worry about the kids of the future being able play things like this because the prices are just so extreme and it’s only going to get worse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Simmers have already complained of changes. In March, The Sims 4 unveiled the Marketplace, a virtual store of Sims custom content created by other players. It essentially gives players a way to sell customized in-game clothes and furniture directly to other players. However, creators only take home 30% of their sales. EA gets the remaining 70%, and when it first launched, players could only buy this stuff using a special currency called “Moola” — which they had to buy with real-world money. Simmers weren’t thrilled about the microtransactions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of @goofylilshady playing The Sims 4 from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, if you thought this game was expensive, now guess what? It just got a little bit more expensive! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then just this month, EA quietly launched its new Advertising department, which will focus on integrating brand partnerships with other ads directly into gameplay. Now, for The Sims, this could look like brand collabs that the game has already done, like giving players free Coach bags in-game, or free IKEA furniture that looks just like the real IKEA furniture. It could also look like an unskippable pop-up ad that interrupts the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s not just about The Sims. Obviously my personal experience is with The Sims, because that’s my favorite game and this thing that I’ve been playing for so long, but it really does affect all games across the entire industry, even beyond just EA games. I think that a private equity buyout of this scale is completely unprecedented and will probably have ripple effects across the entire industry forever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of sets the model for future buyouts, future private buyouts. It sets the model for potential mass layoffs and these like really big AI concerns that we have over replacing developers. And I’m really concerned about that aggressive monetization because already, games are so expensive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leaving the Creator Network alone wasn’t enough for Kayla. She wanted to do more. So, she joined The Players Alliance. And, what is that? Well, that brings us back to the protest — and to open a new tab: How are gamers fighting the EA buyout? You’ve actually gone further than just leaving the network and not promoting the new games — you joined The Players Alliance. What is that? What are they trying to achieve? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, The Players Alliance is a group of gamers that is working to help fight corporate greed, just in general, in the gaming industry — right now, a lot of talk about the EA buyout and ways that that impacts the gaming industry as a whole. So, that’s kind of a heavy focus of them at this current moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Players Alliance is trying to gain signatures for its petition to block the deal. They’ve collected over 72,000 signatures so far. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, my friend Zefrine and I, we had kind of been talking a little bit about wanting to do something and wanting to do more, and I had been thinking privately about ways that I could try and get involved and do more and not… I didn’t really know where to start. Because I — you know, I’m just one person, like, I don’t know how to do something like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You heard Zefrine at the top of this episode — during the rally outside EA’s headquarters. She’s one of the lead organizers for The Players Alliance, which she describes as a gamers’ union. Her dad was a union guy too, so she grew up among organizers. When she heard about the buyout, she knew she had to get involved and that she could leverage her platform to get the word out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kayla and I are actually very close friends. And… It kind of gives me chills to talk about it, but we both had a dream the same night that we did a livestream together — like the same night. And then I just decided, I was like, “You know what? I’m just going to see, how stupid can we get? How silly, goofy can we get? Let’s shoot for the stars.” And then we… She said, “Are you kidding me? We have… Like, I had the same dream last night!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zefrine had been working with The Players Alliance, and she kind of had this idea to work with a Congress member, and like, reach out to them and ask them to maybe do a stream with us or like, to speak more openly about this. And fortunately, I have- my congressman, Maxwell Frost, had already signed an open letter in Congress about the deal and so we felt like that was actually a really, kind of kismet opportunity to try and reach out to his team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maxwell Frost is the first Gen Z member of Congress. He’s known for being more… online than his colleagues. He’s more in the know. And it helps that he’s already a gamer himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, what better of a person to reach an audience like that — like, he’s young, he’s in touch, he’s understanding of like, what’s going on with things, and his voice is so powerful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With The Players Alliance, they organized a live stream with the Congressman, back in April. Here’s the setup: Zefrine acted as a moderator, taking audience questions and passing them on to Kayla and Maxwell. Like, a guided fireside chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Begin clip of Players Alliance livestream]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Maxwell Frost:\u003c/strong> Saudi Arabia is essentially trying to acquire every part of gaming you can think of. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s going to put us in a really tough position in terms of national security, in terms of censorship and what that government believes, and in terms of the workers who create the games as well. So, I really think the FTC needs to step in here. They can sue to stop the merger. The Department of Justice can also sue to stop the mergers as well. I think there’s so many reasons why they need to do it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I completely agree. And I hate to interrupt you, but how is your energy looking in the game, and maybe we should go to bed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Maxwell Frost:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>[laughing]\u003c/em> My energy’s kinda low and it’s really dark. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[End clip]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this whole discussion happened while they played Stardew Valley. Zefrine said they picked this game for a reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stardew Valley — it’s an indie smash hit, and I think it’s just so comfy and cozy and approachable, and it’s made by one guy. And I think, it’s really important, especially among all this, to highlight the amazing things that can be done. You know, when you let your developers pour their hearts into something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We kind of wanted to make it really approachable for the viewer and like, make it something that was similar enough to my regular content that maybe it wouldn’t just be a click-off like, “Oh, who’s this random guy she’s talking to? I don’t need to watch this.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was going to ask like about the livestream itself. It really cracked me up watching Maxwell Frost explain like, how the downfall of democracy with foreign involvement while also trying to break open a geode, because you guys are playing Stardew Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of the Players Alliance livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, can we open the geode? Yeah, okay. If you come back to like where the cabins are, you can follow me, I’ll show you where Clint is. Clint? Clint… Nice, dude, Clint is the guy that opens the geodes? Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leading up to that and going into it, I was like, “I’m not equipped to be talking to a Congress member.” Like, I just play video games. But he is so nice, and he was so excited about the game as well. It’s really funny to watch the video back, and he’s like so locked in, like staring at his screen while he’s talking. It’s really fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But yeah, it was amazing that he offered to join us, and I felt like he had a lot of really great things to say about how it was working and what people can do to get involved. I think that it inspired a lot of people to sign the petition that we’ve been trying to share. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So let’s talk about the petition itself. What is the goal of it? What are you trying to bring awareness to? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the petition itself, is to the Secretary of the Treasury. And the ultimate goal is to hopefully have him stop the deal because he has the power to block it. But I think even beyond that, having a massive petition with so many signatures, really sends signs to EA and to the new buyers about how much the community opposes it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that because we have so many really valid concerns about national security and data security of Americans — this would be a foreign monarchy having almost complete control over a company that has hundreds of millions of people buying their games, it’s one of the biggest entertainment industries in America — and so the hope is that because of those concerns, we can get the government to help prevent the deal from going through. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kayla has hoped that lawmakers will at least be able to stall the deal. Nearly 50 members of Congress signed a letter to FTC Chair Andrew Ferguson — calling for a thorough review into the labor market consequences of the buyout. The House Judiciary Committee opened a probe into Jared Kushner’s quote, “foreign entanglements and staggering conflicts of interests,” AKA, his financial ties to Saudi Arabia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s renewed scrutiny of the buyout now, thanks to his involvement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The deal is expected to close by the end of this fiscal quarter — so, sometime this summer, if not by the end of the month. Regardless of whether the deal goes through, Sims creators who continue to promote the game have been bombarded with questions from followers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ahead of the Players Alliance collab with Congressman Frost, the Sims team reached out to members of the EA Creator Network over Discord. The messages were private, but screenshots quickly leaked online. They said the team was aware of the planned livestream and included guidance on how creators could answer their followers’ questions about the buyout. The message also said, quote, “There’s no expectation for you to engage with or respond to this conversation. You will always be free to express your honest opinions, but it’s also completely okay if you’d prefer to step back from the conversation entirely.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For months, Simmers like Kayla and Zefrine have been grappling with what it means to disentangle themselves from a game that’s meant so much to them. What does that even look like? Alright, we have time to open one last tab, right? The Sims creator dilemma. Many high-profile Sims creators left the EA Creator Network, but Zefrine decided to stay, even though she’s one of the lead organizers for the Players Alliance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I try to keep them relatively compartmentalized. Obviously, because I have like my contract and I respect that contract — it’s been like this huge goal for me to be in the Creator Network and be a part of that. And I think that in every company, no matter where you are, you still need good people that are willing to advocate for it from within. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some people choose to step away because they feel like their power is that way, but I’m not afraid to be noisy or outspoken about certain things. And um, I talk to my community, I see things online, and then I… advocate directly to the people who make the game, and I think that’s a really powerful thing. So that’s personally what I have chosen to do. And I’m still like continuing to play it because it can get quite complicated for like a lot of people, but it’s something I’ve enjoyed since I was eight years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it truly was like, it saved my life to be fully honest with you. Um, and… It allowed me to discover like, queer representation within myself and like those things like through storytelling or through building. It’s just such a powerful outlet. I’m using my voice and my platform that I’ve been gifted by this community essentially, to make sure that that integrity stays in place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While she stayed in the network, Zefrine has also been very involved in organizing protests and collecting signatures. And then there’s Kayla. She’s been criticized for continuing to make Sims content, even after she left the EA network. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for anyone on YouTube, it’s kind of impossible to just like, quit cold turkey with your bread and butter. Like, I think that that’s really a turnoff to your entire audience and I don’t think that it’s practical. So, from day one, my goal was to start incorporating more other games onto my YouTube channel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She plays Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing and a new game called Paralives. It’s an indie game that’s very similar to The Sims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been scary, I think, because I was nervous, again, that people wouldn’t care… But it’s been fun for me to experiment a little bit — because I kind of have like a format. I sort of know what it takes to make a good Sims video, but I don’t really know what is takes to make a video about some of these other games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when Kayla does return to The Sims, she follows some new rules she set for her channel. She hasn’t been reviewing or promoting any of the newer packs or game content. In fact, she hasn’t being buying them at all. She’s hesitant to even speak negatively about any of newer stuff because it’ll bring attention to a company that she refuses to financially support. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like, her current Sims content is a time capsule of Sims releases up until 2025. So much of Kayla’s identity is tied up in The Sims — like fundraising with her dad, working with Maxis, and meeting so many of her best friends through the game. I mean, this is someone who has like, 12,000 hours in the game — her last name is literally Sims. And she admitted that she does really miss it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love The Sims so much and like, seeing this new content come out and like for example, when the most recent expansion pack came out and I chose not to play it and not to review it — that’s the first time in like 15 years that I haven’t played new Sims content and that made me really sad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I love the game. I want to continue to play the game, I want continue to support the game, I want The Sims to exist because I think it’s such an important pillar of the gaming community. There’s nothing else like it in the entire world, and it’s so special, and I wish so desperately that I could feel comfortable continuing to support it, but it just feels morally wrong at this point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter what happens with EA, and the buyout, and the Saudi investment in the gaming industry, the Sims team has made a lot of assurances that the game won’t change. Well, the microtransactions have been amped up, but the game is still as queer and inclusive as it was last year, before EA shareholders approved the buyouts. Last episode, we talked to Jessica Croft, a senior designer for The Sims. When I asked her about the player concerns we laid out in this episode, here’s what she said. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Croft: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re still the same team we’ve always been. We are the same folks that made the sexual orientation update, that made pronouns update, that fought for diversity and representation throughout our long history. Our values haven’t changed. Like, we still believe the exact same things we’ve always believed. And I could also say that — I could claim this till I’m blue in the face, and you might still not believe me — I would say don’t trust our words, trust our actions. Watch what we do next, watch the next few years of releases, and take from that the understanding that we haven’t changed, we still hold the same values. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, LGBTQ inclusion in games rarely feels revolutionary. It’s a given. Of course you can be a demon-blooded lesbian in Baldur’s Gate. It makes total sense that the main characters in Hades are canonically bisexual. Marry whoever you want in Stardew Valley. The Sims opened the door for these games to be… so gay. The buyout doesn’t change what The Sims has come to mean to so many queer people over the last 26 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From the very first accidental sapphic kiss at E3, this game has been a trailblazer for what it means to actually see yourself in a story. The future of EA may be uncertain, but the queer history of The Sims is undeniable. Will it stay this gay? I really hope so. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive on The Sims. Let me tell you — the tabs on this one almost got out of control. I cannot open another without crashing this episode. But if you’re hungry for more, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, happy pride. Let’s finally close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes producer, Maya Cueva, and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember I was trying to have my Sim adopt a baby, because I realized like, “Oh, you can adopt a baby. That’s cool. I want to try that.” And so, I clicked the button and then nothing happened. And I was like, “That’s weird. Let me do it again.” Nothing happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought, “That’s weird. Let me do it again.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I adopted like six babies by accident, and then, I didn’t know that you had to take care of them, which, in hindsight is like, “Well, of course you do.” But you know, I was a kid, so I wasn’t taking care of them — and they all got taken away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em> Oh no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and I, yeah, I harbored a lot of guilt about that back then. Now I kind of think it’s funny, but I was like, “What is this game? This is a nightmare!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When shareholders of gaming giant Electronic Arts approved an acquisition of the company by a group that includes Jared Kushner’s private equity firm and the Saudi Public Investment Fund late last year, it rocked the entertainment industry. The sale worth an estimated $55 billion sent the player community of the EA-owned game The Sims scrambling, afraid that a game known as a haven for LGBTQ+ expression might be changed for the worse. In this second part of our exploration of the inclusive history of The Sims franchise, we dive into what the deal might mean for the game, how it’s reshaping the future of the industry, and why a popular Sims streamer is ready to walk away from the game in protest.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When shareholders of gaming giant Electronic Arts approved an acquisition of the company by a group that includes Jared Kushner’s private equity firm and the Saudi Public Investment Fund late last year, it rocked the entertainment industry. The sale worth an estimated $55 billion sent the player community of the EA-owned game The Sims scrambling, afraid that a game known as a haven for LGBTQ+ expression might be changed for the worse. In this second part of our exploration of the inclusive history of The Sims franchise, we dive into what the deal might mean for the game, how it’s reshaping the future of the industry, and why a popular Sims streamer is ready to walk away from the game in protest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7131851733\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/lilsimsie\">Kayla Sims\u003c/a>, Twitch streamer and YouTuber known as “lilsimsie”\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/zefrine/\">Zefrine\u003c/a>, Twitch streamer and organizer with The Players Alliance\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Loel Phelps, senior game design director at Maxis\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jessica Croft, senior designer at EA on The Sims 4 \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083135/bay-area-gamers-rally-against-electronic-arts-55-billion-acquisition\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Area Gamers Rally Against Electronic Arts’ $55 Billion Acquisition\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/-gaming-is-the-new-oil-how-the-ea-buyout-diverges-from-the-traditional-playbook-\">‘Gaming is the new oil:’ How the EA buyout ‘diverges from the traditional playbook’\u003c/a> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003ci>Game Developer\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/rep-maxwell-frost-lilsimsie-stream-ea-saudi-arabia-interview/\">Congressman Teams Up With Popular Sims Streamer To Oppose Saudi Purchase Of EA\u003c/a> — Nathan Grayson, \u003ci>\u003ci>Aftermath\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/us-representative-maxwell-frost-voices-protest-over-saudi-buyout-of-ea\">US representative Maxwell Frost protests Saudi buyout of EA\u003c/a> — Diego Argüello, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Game Developer\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/games/816750/the-sims-ea-buyout-content-creator-program-departures-lilsimsie\">Sims streamers are distancing themselves from EA, but for some the choice is hard\u003c/a> — Ash Parrish\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>,\u003ci> The Verge\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://simscommunity.info/2026/06/17/ea-advertisement-brands-history/\">EA Advertisement Isn’t New: A Look Back At The Sims’ History With Brands (And What Comes Next)\u003c/a> — Callum Bowyer,\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> Sims Community\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cepr.net/publications/electronic-arts-and-private-equity/\">Private Equity’s EA Takeover: Corruption, Contradictions, and Exploitation\u003c/a> — Daniel Stone, \u003ci>Center for Economic and Policy Research\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sul Sul! That’s “hello” in Simlish. This is the second part of our deep dive into the queer history of The Sims. Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabbie or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us! Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a med pack in my backpack, so if anyone like, tweaks their ankle or falls or something, in this lower pouch there is a second pouch, you’ll find all sorts of medical stuff in there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In early May, a colorful group of gamers assembled in a grocery store parking lot in Redwood City, California — preparing to march on the headquarters of video game giant Electronic Arts. They called it a “raid,” which, in gaming terms, means a big battle with the intention of taking down the boss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This has concluded your safety brief. All right, woo! We did it! And then once you’re here, everybody look at me. We’re just going to grab a quick photo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a small group — maybe a dozen — but passionate. They’re part of an organization called The Players Alliance. They pulled up in elaborate costumes, with some wearing plumbobs, the gems from The Sims. Some wore the more common green ones, which float above the heads of happy Sims. But several in the group donned red plumbobs — typically seen on unhappy Sims, which is an iconic way to express anger toward The Sims’ parent company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The group had gathered to protest the $55 billion deal that would take EA private and transfer ownership to a group of investors that includes a firm led by Jared Kushner and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. The Players Alliance created an online petition addressed to U.S. Secretary Scott Bessent, calling on him to block the buyout. They had over 70,000 signatures by that point, printed on a comically long scroll. The plan? Rally other players, block the buyout, and, of course, stream the whole thing. Streamer and organizer, Kase Cosgrove, took the mic for much of the demonstration. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kase Cosgrove: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woo! Here we go! Welcome everyone! We are here to… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They staged a boss fight, which involved taking down giant cardboard heads of the guys in charge of the buyout. Picture a huge Jared Kushner cutout surrounded by disapproving gamers. Then, they turned to a cutout of EA CEO Andrew Wilson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traitor! Traitor! Traitor! He’s betraying you, he’s betraying us, he’s betraying the workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then came the big finale. The group unfurled the massive roll of paper printed with a portion of the 70,000 signatures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the gaming community. These are the people that signed their name on the dotted line that joined us. And I need you to know, this isn’t all of them. We have over 70,000 signatures — something we did in two months, not two years. I also want to add that this is 50 feet, a thousand signatures — this would span over a half mile at this size. It’s simply too big. And we’re only growing… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Rachel… Better known as Zefrine. She’s an organizer and Sims creator who spoke about why she opposes the buyout. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims is a game about life and like, that’s everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kase Cosgrove: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sims, the game about life, they should use that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All colors, all walks of life. Yeah, like all of that. And that’s why we’re here today. Like me specifically, for a myriad of reasons, not only for the integrity of the industry, the jobs, the security, and the more that they continue to just treat it like the cash cow that it’s viewed to be by people who don’t care about us — the more that those spaces are going to become inaccessible to people who can no longer afford them. I love this… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many gamers are concerned about the EA buyout — fearing employee layoffs, decreasing quality of games, and aggressive monetization. But for Sims players, the threat feels especially personal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mivyard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a bisexual, there weren’t a lot of games where you could just have anybody, romance anybody else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a Sims creator who goes by Mivyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mivyard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was really important for me, especially when I was younger. So this game has a really special place in my heart and just the thought of it being taken over by people who might want to censor that aspect and that representation for the community is really frightening. So, when the news about the buyout dropped, a lot of Simmers and Sims streamers were like, “Oh my god,” like, “What do we do?” Like, what action can we do to actually… have an effect on the situation? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this deal really entail? If it goes through, what are the consequences on the gaming industry and its workers? And, is there anything that can stop it? Last week, we dove into the queer history of The Sims. Today, we’re looking at the present reality of EA and the future of this beloved game. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picking up where we left off last week’s deep dive: let’s open another tab. What does The Sims mean to players? How many hours do you have logged on The Sims 4? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh dear, let me open it and I’ll find out. 10,522. And actually, it’s more than that, because I had like 1,700 hours in the Create A Sim demo as well — and then, now they’re all logged with The Sims 4 regular game, but doesn’t count those. So, it’s… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Probably like 12,000, which — yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. No, but like it’s my job, right? So it’s totally fine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kayla Sims. She’s a Twitch streamer and YouTuber better known as LilSimsie. She has millions of followers. Almost every day, like five to six days a week, viewers tune in to watch her play cozy games. Think: farming sims like Stardew Valley, or social games like Animal Crossing. These are games that revolve more around creativity, slowing down, and exploring. It’s the complete opposite of first-person shooters like Call of Duty and Halo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing Animal Crossing from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been playing Animal Crossing for a couple of weeks now on this channel and unfortunately my island is still really, really ugly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cozy games aren’t necessarily low stakes. One of the most popular games of the genre is The Sims. It’s a game where a lot can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh well, we decorated the tree… No!!! Why is this happening? Oh my god, the tree’s on fire! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims community is so different from other gamer circles online. At the Game Developer Conference in 2023, Phillip Ring, an executive producer for The Sims 4, gave a talk on developing DEI content in games. He cited a demographic study conducted by The Sims team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Phillip Ring from GDC Vault website]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">43% of our audience identify as members of the LGBTQIA+ community. And 38% of audience are people of color. That’s far exceeding traditional gaming demographics on these dimensions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And 64% of Sims players are cis women. 17% are gender fluid or trans. Just over 20% are cis men, which is incredibly rare in gaming, an industry that’s long been marketed to men. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Phillip Ring from GDC Vault website]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a tremendous testament to the progress that we are making towards The Sims being a place where all players can represent themselves and see the world as they imagine it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that sometimes gaming gets a bad reputation. People think about horrible hate speech being spewed in voice chats and stuff, but The Sims is just not like that. I think that actually a lot of marginalized folks kind of flock to The Sims because it is so welcoming and so accepting. And so, it’s just a really wholesome, wonderful place to be. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously it’s heavily made up by a lot queer folks, a lot people from the LGBTQ+ community are in The Sims community. There’s a lot of women in The Sims community as well. I think it’s just in general kind of a different demographic from a lot of other really major games titles, especially games titles that have been around for this long. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has The Sims meant to you throughout your life? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It might sound silly, but honestly, The Sims has meant everything to me. When I was a kid, I really had a hard time in middle school and high school. I was kind of having a lot of mental health struggles and then my dad got cancer, and I was really like, going through it when I was in school. And The Sims was a real escape for me back then — not just playing the game, but like the community as a whole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was almost like a utopia, right? Like I could like escape into this game where everything was fine. And it was a creative outlet for me to like, work on building houses and making characters and like, telling stories and stuff. And it’s kind of, I think, shaped me now and shaped my hobbies and my interests to this day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many Simmers, Kayla started playing The Sims as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I finally managed to convince my parents to buy it for me after a long time of begging. I was like, “No, this is like named after us. We need to play it,” you know? “It’s fate.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In high school, Kayla started taking video production classes. It was the mid-2010s. Reaction videos and short form content hadn’t taken over yet. This was the golden age of YouTube. Gaming playthroughs and daily vlogs were blowing up. Kayla loved watching them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is around the time that my dad was diagnosed with cancer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After months of being sick, her dad was diagnosed with an aggressive blood cancer. Kayla’s parents went to Tampa for treatment, leaving Kayla and her younger siblings with their grandparents, two hours away. And Kayla felt really alone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I was really looking, I think, for an outlet, and like, maybe also some community, because I was playing the game alone… And I think I was really like, kind of grasping to see if I could find some people that were like me and make some friends. So I started making videos just for fun and I really poured so much into it. I’ve spent all my free time playing the game and recording it and thinking about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At 16 years old, Kayla started posting videos of her attempt at completing the, “Sims 4: 100 Baby Challenge.” Basically, you have to birth and successfully raise 100 in-game babies. Once your Sim can no longer have babies, you pick an heir, get them pregnant, and keep going. The goal is to build a family tree with all 100 babies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everybody and welcome back to Part 3… I think? Of Let’s Play The Sims 4: 100 Baby Challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It took Kayla five years to finish the challenge. To be fair, she was also making other videos about The Sims: reviews, playthroughs, speed builds — but still, it was five years of her life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- It’s over. We- It’s done. We did it. Little did I know when I was 16 years old and starting this stupid challenge that I would be 21 when I finished it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the time it took Kayla to raise 100 in-game babies, her dad’s health stabilized, she built a huge following, and she found a community of fellow Simmers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I ended up making so many friends that are lifelong friends to this day, 10 years later. I was so shy and so anxious and to meet some of these other girls that were my same age, and they were also really shy and really anxious and having some similar mental health struggles, and they we’re also really into The Sims. And so, it was really, really powerful, I think, for me to make some friends that I felt like I could truly be myself with, because I don’t know if I had that in person and at school. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As her channel grew, Kayla started doing charity streams, fundraising for various causes. Her big one is an annual, month-long fundraising campaign for St. Jude’s Children’s Research Hospital. Just last month, she raised over a million dollars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">999,000! Woo! Oh my god! One million. *screaming*\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her dad often pops in for those streams. Fans call him PapaSimsie or LilDadsie. And every year, Kayla takes a break from playing The Sims while she and her mom shave her dad’s head, live on stream, as part of the fundraiser. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s embarrassed. Yeah. \u003cem>[laughing]\u003c/em> Of me? Of bald daddy? \u003cem>[more laughing]\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad’s kind of weird. I mean that in a good way. But, you know, he really hams it up for the camera. And I think that people enjoy that. He’s really gotten involved with some of those things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can call me bald daddy. Stop!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now, the whole Sims family is also involved in Sims content. It’s the Simsie-verse. Over the years, Kayla started working directly with Maxis, which is owned by EA. Back in the day, the company flew out Sims creators to play test games early and give feedback directly to developers. It was mutually beneficial — the creators got early access footage that they got to post, and Maxis got to drum up some promotion for upcoming game content. A symbiotic relationship, if you will. In her reviews, Kayla’s been a pretty harsh critic of the pre-made buildings in the earlier Sims expansion packs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s one build that just, like, never ceases to amaze me, and it comes in Get Famous. It’s like this celebrity mansion. There’s five bathrooms. No toilets. There’s like space for a toilet. They’ve — clearly, they meant to put it there, and they just didn’t put one. Why?\u003cem> [laughs] \u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The developers at Maxis were definitely keeping tabs on the criticism. So, they asked Kayla to work on a few builds for upcoming releases. She created three buildings for the expansion pack Snowy Escape, which came out in 2020. And then again, for another expansion pack a few years later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s all to say that Kayla’s life had become completely intertwined with The Sims. I mean, it’s her last name! Her parents were involved. She built a career out of playing this game. These playthroughs and reviews and silly challenges paid her bills. And, she played it in her free time, too. The Sims had become her job, but it was still the safe space that it was for her as an anxious, lonely teenager. Which is why she was so heartbroken when news of the EA buyout went public. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I couldn’t even believe it, to be honest, and I was so, so sad and scared. I mean, like, tears have been shed over this by me, because I feel like they’re tearing something away from us, you know? It’s really frustrating to have something that has been such a safe space for so long be bought out by people that are not safe. And I think that a lot of Sims players kind of echo that same sentiment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we know that this is a $55 billion deal — a truly unfathomable amount of money. Beyond the staggering price tag… what does this buyout really entail? Game studios are sold and acquired all the time — why are players so concerned about this one in particular? We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay, after the break: the EA buyouts and The Players Alliance. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the EA buyout, explained. In October, Kayla joins other major Sims creators in leaving the EA Creator Network. This is the official partnership program for The Sims, and it opens the doors to huge perks. Creators in the network get early access to game packs, an affiliate code to share with their followers, and invites to beta testing sessions and special events. Some creators in the network even get paid collaborations. Stepping down from the Creator Network means giving up a lot of opportunities for Simmers like Kayla. But, as she learned more about the buyout deal, she knew she couldn’t stay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Upon first seeing it, I was like, “I do not want this to happen, I hope that it will not go through, and I want people to be aware of what is going on.” I kind of in good conscience do not want to work with EA directly and like, support them behind the scenes or have any like, contractual obligation to them if this sale goes through. I had hoped that by a large creator like myself and also a bunch of other large Sims creators leaving the network, it would kind of take a huge stand and hopefully send signs to them about how much we do not want this to happen and how strongly we stand against it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the details of this deal. In September last year, EA announced that the brand and its catalog had been sold to an “investor consortium” in a $55 billion deal. This group of investors includes the tech-focused private equity firm Silver Lake, Jared Kushner’s Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. That’s the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund, led by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, this deal alone could buy the entire music industry. I think that sometimes we forget just how big gaming is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consortium didn’t publicly disclose the planned ownership breakdown. That part actually came from a filing with Brazil’s antitrust regulators — spotted by the Wall Street Journal. So, once EA is delisted from the NASDAQ, Affinity Partners will own just 1.1%, and Silver Lake will own 5.5%. The Saudi Public Investment Fund will own a whopping 93.4% of the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think, also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Saudi Arabia, engaging in same-sex relationships is punishable by flogging, and in some cases, death. Gender expression is also criminalized. Multiple human rights reports note that it’s “illegal for men to behave like women,” and “dress in women’s clothes,” and vice versa. Publicly advocating for the rights of LGBTQ people is also illegal, and those who do? They also face arrest and imprisonment. Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund, PIF, already owned almost 10% of EA prior to the buyout. Now, PIF will own the vast majority of EA and its portfolio — including The Sims, a game that’s been a haven for queer players. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims team has addressed the concerns. In October, they posted a statement to the game’s official channels, thanking players for being part of the community. They said, “Our mission, values, and commitment remain the same. The Sims will always be a space where you can express your authentic self.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our last episode, we talked to Loel Phelps, the senior design director for The Sims 4. As the self-described “shepherd of ideas” for the game, Loel has guided over a decade of updates and expansions to make The Sims more inclusive. I asked him about the concerns over how new ownership could change the game, particularly for queer players who found refuge in The Sims. Here’s what he wants players to know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Loel Phelps: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I believe in this team. The sec- like I said, the second I joined, I felt a very welcoming presence. I felt like there was a diverse group of people who are passionate creators, who have very different lived experiences from one another, just like everybody who’s here to play the game. So, inclusivity is foundational. It’s the lifeblood of who we are and the product we build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why would Saudi Arabia, a notoriously repressive country, want anything to do with a company behind the most explicitly queer game on the market? Well… The Sims is just a tiny piece of EA’s portfolio. I mean, EA Sports is its own division. It’s huge. Saudi Arabia has been a major investor in e-sports and video games. By investing in gaming, PIF is diversifying the Saudi economy beyond petroleum, while also buying global cultural relevance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As one business professor put it in an interview with the industry news site, Game Developer, “Gaming is the new oil.” The ripple effects go way beyond diversity and inclusion. It could fundamentally change the gaming industry as we know it. Okay, lock in. You’re about to get a lot of details. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the EA deal is the largest leveraged buyout in history. A leveraged buyout means that the buyer uses borrowed funds to acquire a company — almost like a mortgage. The buyer puts down the down payment and the bank finances the rest. Except, the buyer isn’t the one who has to pay it off. The company that was just bought does — using its own assets and revenues to pay off the debt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, $55 billion, right? The investment group that bought EA chipped in a collective $36 billion, but there’s almost $20 billion left. Where does that come from? Now we have a new player, JP Morgan Chase Bank, which financed the remaining $20 billion. Well, who’s going to pay back the bank? EA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a massive deal that’s being financed by $20 billion in debt that EA is going to have to carry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, EA actually makes a ton of money. In the 2025 fiscal year, the company pulled in nearly $7.5 billion of revenue. But their profit — what’s left after paying business costs — was just over $1.1 billion. And as multiple financial experts and market analysts have warned us, EA is probably going to have to make some pretty significant changes to pay off $20 billion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, they’re gonna need to pay that off quickly because the investors wanna make money. And people are really concerned about things like layoffs of a lot of the people that work at EA — possibly replacing them with AI, which would just ruin the heart and soul of the game. And it’s really scary, I think, as a step for the gaming industry as a whole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Days after it agreed to the deal, EA published an employee FAQ assuring workers that, quote, “There will be no changes to your job, team, or daily work as a result of this transaction.” This FAQ was actually made public in an SEC filing. Multiple experts have said that EA will likely double down on their existing revenue streams — sports franchises like Madden, cash cow mobile games that revolve around in-app purchases, and microtransactions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re already pricing a lot of people out. And if we have this new standard set — because now it’s the norm — I really am worried about it getting even worse and preventing people from being able to play these games. I worry about the kids of the future being able play things like this because the prices are just so extreme and it’s only going to get worse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Simmers have already complained of changes. In March, The Sims 4 unveiled the Marketplace, a virtual store of Sims custom content created by other players. It essentially gives players a way to sell customized in-game clothes and furniture directly to other players. However, creators only take home 30% of their sales. EA gets the remaining 70%, and when it first launched, players could only buy this stuff using a special currency called “Moola” — which they had to buy with real-world money. Simmers weren’t thrilled about the microtransactions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of @goofylilshady playing The Sims 4 from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, if you thought this game was expensive, now guess what? It just got a little bit more expensive! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then just this month, EA quietly launched its new Advertising department, which will focus on integrating brand partnerships with other ads directly into gameplay. Now, for The Sims, this could look like brand collabs that the game has already done, like giving players free Coach bags in-game, or free IKEA furniture that looks just like the real IKEA furniture. It could also look like an unskippable pop-up ad that interrupts the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s not just about The Sims. Obviously my personal experience is with The Sims, because that’s my favorite game and this thing that I’ve been playing for so long, but it really does affect all games across the entire industry, even beyond just EA games. I think that a private equity buyout of this scale is completely unprecedented and will probably have ripple effects across the entire industry forever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of sets the model for future buyouts, future private buyouts. It sets the model for potential mass layoffs and these like really big AI concerns that we have over replacing developers. And I’m really concerned about that aggressive monetization because already, games are so expensive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leaving the Creator Network alone wasn’t enough for Kayla. She wanted to do more. So, she joined The Players Alliance. And, what is that? Well, that brings us back to the protest — and to open a new tab: How are gamers fighting the EA buyout? You’ve actually gone further than just leaving the network and not promoting the new games — you joined The Players Alliance. What is that? What are they trying to achieve? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, The Players Alliance is a group of gamers that is working to help fight corporate greed, just in general, in the gaming industry — right now, a lot of talk about the EA buyout and ways that that impacts the gaming industry as a whole. So, that’s kind of a heavy focus of them at this current moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Players Alliance is trying to gain signatures for its petition to block the deal. They’ve collected over 72,000 signatures so far. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, my friend Zefrine and I, we had kind of been talking a little bit about wanting to do something and wanting to do more, and I had been thinking privately about ways that I could try and get involved and do more and not… I didn’t really know where to start. Because I — you know, I’m just one person, like, I don’t know how to do something like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You heard Zefrine at the top of this episode — during the rally outside EA’s headquarters. She’s one of the lead organizers for The Players Alliance, which she describes as a gamers’ union. Her dad was a union guy too, so she grew up among organizers. When she heard about the buyout, she knew she had to get involved and that she could leverage her platform to get the word out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kayla and I are actually very close friends. And… It kind of gives me chills to talk about it, but we both had a dream the same night that we did a livestream together — like the same night. And then I just decided, I was like, “You know what? I’m just going to see, how stupid can we get? How silly, goofy can we get? Let’s shoot for the stars.” And then we… She said, “Are you kidding me? We have… Like, I had the same dream last night!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zefrine had been working with The Players Alliance, and she kind of had this idea to work with a Congress member, and like, reach out to them and ask them to maybe do a stream with us or like, to speak more openly about this. And fortunately, I have- my congressman, Maxwell Frost, had already signed an open letter in Congress about the deal and so we felt like that was actually a really, kind of kismet opportunity to try and reach out to his team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maxwell Frost is the first Gen Z member of Congress. He’s known for being more… online than his colleagues. He’s more in the know. And it helps that he’s already a gamer himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, what better of a person to reach an audience like that — like, he’s young, he’s in touch, he’s understanding of like, what’s going on with things, and his voice is so powerful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With The Players Alliance, they organized a live stream with the Congressman, back in April. Here’s the setup: Zefrine acted as a moderator, taking audience questions and passing them on to Kayla and Maxwell. Like, a guided fireside chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Begin clip of Players Alliance livestream]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Maxwell Frost:\u003c/strong> Saudi Arabia is essentially trying to acquire every part of gaming you can think of. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s going to put us in a really tough position in terms of national security, in terms of censorship and what that government believes, and in terms of the workers who create the games as well. So, I really think the FTC needs to step in here. They can sue to stop the merger. The Department of Justice can also sue to stop the mergers as well. I think there’s so many reasons why they need to do it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I completely agree. And I hate to interrupt you, but how is your energy looking in the game, and maybe we should go to bed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Maxwell Frost:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>[laughing]\u003c/em> My energy’s kinda low and it’s really dark. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[End clip]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this whole discussion happened while they played Stardew Valley. Zefrine said they picked this game for a reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stardew Valley — it’s an indie smash hit, and I think it’s just so comfy and cozy and approachable, and it’s made by one guy. And I think, it’s really important, especially among all this, to highlight the amazing things that can be done. You know, when you let your developers pour their hearts into something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We kind of wanted to make it really approachable for the viewer and like, make it something that was similar enough to my regular content that maybe it wouldn’t just be a click-off like, “Oh, who’s this random guy she’s talking to? I don’t need to watch this.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was going to ask like about the livestream itself. It really cracked me up watching Maxwell Frost explain like, how the downfall of democracy with foreign involvement while also trying to break open a geode, because you guys are playing Stardew Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of the Players Alliance livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, can we open the geode? Yeah, okay. If you come back to like where the cabins are, you can follow me, I’ll show you where Clint is. Clint? Clint… Nice, dude, Clint is the guy that opens the geodes? Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leading up to that and going into it, I was like, “I’m not equipped to be talking to a Congress member.” Like, I just play video games. But he is so nice, and he was so excited about the game as well. It’s really funny to watch the video back, and he’s like so locked in, like staring at his screen while he’s talking. It’s really fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But yeah, it was amazing that he offered to join us, and I felt like he had a lot of really great things to say about how it was working and what people can do to get involved. I think that it inspired a lot of people to sign the petition that we’ve been trying to share. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So let’s talk about the petition itself. What is the goal of it? What are you trying to bring awareness to? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the petition itself, is to the Secretary of the Treasury. And the ultimate goal is to hopefully have him stop the deal because he has the power to block it. But I think even beyond that, having a massive petition with so many signatures, really sends signs to EA and to the new buyers about how much the community opposes it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that because we have so many really valid concerns about national security and data security of Americans — this would be a foreign monarchy having almost complete control over a company that has hundreds of millions of people buying their games, it’s one of the biggest entertainment industries in America — and so the hope is that because of those concerns, we can get the government to help prevent the deal from going through. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kayla has hoped that lawmakers will at least be able to stall the deal. Nearly 50 members of Congress signed a letter to FTC Chair Andrew Ferguson — calling for a thorough review into the labor market consequences of the buyout. The House Judiciary Committee opened a probe into Jared Kushner’s quote, “foreign entanglements and staggering conflicts of interests,” AKA, his financial ties to Saudi Arabia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s renewed scrutiny of the buyout now, thanks to his involvement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The deal is expected to close by the end of this fiscal quarter — so, sometime this summer, if not by the end of the month. Regardless of whether the deal goes through, Sims creators who continue to promote the game have been bombarded with questions from followers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ahead of the Players Alliance collab with Congressman Frost, the Sims team reached out to members of the EA Creator Network over Discord. The messages were private, but screenshots quickly leaked online. They said the team was aware of the planned livestream and included guidance on how creators could answer their followers’ questions about the buyout. The message also said, quote, “There’s no expectation for you to engage with or respond to this conversation. You will always be free to express your honest opinions, but it’s also completely okay if you’d prefer to step back from the conversation entirely.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For months, Simmers like Kayla and Zefrine have been grappling with what it means to disentangle themselves from a game that’s meant so much to them. What does that even look like? Alright, we have time to open one last tab, right? The Sims creator dilemma. Many high-profile Sims creators left the EA Creator Network, but Zefrine decided to stay, even though she’s one of the lead organizers for the Players Alliance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I try to keep them relatively compartmentalized. Obviously, because I have like my contract and I respect that contract — it’s been like this huge goal for me to be in the Creator Network and be a part of that. And I think that in every company, no matter where you are, you still need good people that are willing to advocate for it from within. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some people choose to step away because they feel like their power is that way, but I’m not afraid to be noisy or outspoken about certain things. And um, I talk to my community, I see things online, and then I… advocate directly to the people who make the game, and I think that’s a really powerful thing. So that’s personally what I have chosen to do. And I’m still like continuing to play it because it can get quite complicated for like a lot of people, but it’s something I’ve enjoyed since I was eight years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it truly was like, it saved my life to be fully honest with you. Um, and… It allowed me to discover like, queer representation within myself and like those things like through storytelling or through building. It’s just such a powerful outlet. I’m using my voice and my platform that I’ve been gifted by this community essentially, to make sure that that integrity stays in place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While she stayed in the network, Zefrine has also been very involved in organizing protests and collecting signatures. And then there’s Kayla. She’s been criticized for continuing to make Sims content, even after she left the EA network. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for anyone on YouTube, it’s kind of impossible to just like, quit cold turkey with your bread and butter. Like, I think that that’s really a turnoff to your entire audience and I don’t think that it’s practical. So, from day one, my goal was to start incorporating more other games onto my YouTube channel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She plays Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing and a new game called Paralives. It’s an indie game that’s very similar to The Sims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been scary, I think, because I was nervous, again, that people wouldn’t care… But it’s been fun for me to experiment a little bit — because I kind of have like a format. I sort of know what it takes to make a good Sims video, but I don’t really know what is takes to make a video about some of these other games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when Kayla does return to The Sims, she follows some new rules she set for her channel. She hasn’t been reviewing or promoting any of the newer packs or game content. In fact, she hasn’t being buying them at all. She’s hesitant to even speak negatively about any of newer stuff because it’ll bring attention to a company that she refuses to financially support. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like, her current Sims content is a time capsule of Sims releases up until 2025. So much of Kayla’s identity is tied up in The Sims — like fundraising with her dad, working with Maxis, and meeting so many of her best friends through the game. I mean, this is someone who has like, 12,000 hours in the game — her last name is literally Sims. And she admitted that she does really miss it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love The Sims so much and like, seeing this new content come out and like for example, when the most recent expansion pack came out and I chose not to play it and not to review it — that’s the first time in like 15 years that I haven’t played new Sims content and that made me really sad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I love the game. I want to continue to play the game, I want continue to support the game, I want The Sims to exist because I think it’s such an important pillar of the gaming community. There’s nothing else like it in the entire world, and it’s so special, and I wish so desperately that I could feel comfortable continuing to support it, but it just feels morally wrong at this point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter what happens with EA, and the buyout, and the Saudi investment in the gaming industry, the Sims team has made a lot of assurances that the game won’t change. Well, the microtransactions have been amped up, but the game is still as queer and inclusive as it was last year, before EA shareholders approved the buyouts. Last episode, we talked to Jessica Croft, a senior designer for The Sims. When I asked her about the player concerns we laid out in this episode, here’s what she said. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Croft: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re still the same team we’ve always been. We are the same folks that made the sexual orientation update, that made pronouns update, that fought for diversity and representation throughout our long history. Our values haven’t changed. Like, we still believe the exact same things we’ve always believed. And I could also say that — I could claim this till I’m blue in the face, and you might still not believe me — I would say don’t trust our words, trust our actions. Watch what we do next, watch the next few years of releases, and take from that the understanding that we haven’t changed, we still hold the same values. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, LGBTQ inclusion in games rarely feels revolutionary. It’s a given. Of course you can be a demon-blooded lesbian in Baldur’s Gate. It makes total sense that the main characters in Hades are canonically bisexual. Marry whoever you want in Stardew Valley. The Sims opened the door for these games to be… so gay. The buyout doesn’t change what The Sims has come to mean to so many queer people over the last 26 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From the very first accidental sapphic kiss at E3, this game has been a trailblazer for what it means to actually see yourself in a story. The future of EA may be uncertain, but the queer history of The Sims is undeniable. Will it stay this gay? I really hope so. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive on The Sims. Let me tell you — the tabs on this one almost got out of control. I cannot open another without crashing this episode. But if you’re hungry for more, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, happy pride. Let’s finally close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes producer, Maya Cueva, and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember I was trying to have my Sim adopt a baby, because I realized like, “Oh, you can adopt a baby. That’s cool. I want to try that.” And so, I clicked the button and then nothing happened. And I was like, “That’s weird. Let me do it again.” Nothing happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought, “That’s weird. Let me do it again.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I adopted like six babies by accident, and then, I didn’t know that you had to take care of them, which, in hindsight is like, “Well, of course you do.” But you know, I was a kid, so I wasn’t taking care of them — and they all got taken away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em> Oh no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and I, yeah, I harbored a lot of guilt about that back then. Now I kind of think it’s funny, but I was like, “What is this game? This is a nightmare!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "a-queer-history-of-the-sims",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Did The Sims make you gay?” is a long-running joke among Sims players. For millions, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> has been more than a video game — it’s been a place to experiment, tell stories, and explore identity. Long before LGBTQ representation became common in mainstream games, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> allowed same-sex relationships, helping create a devoted queer fan base that reshaped what players expected from virtual worlds.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In this episode, Morgan Sung talks with \u003cem>The Sims 4\u003c/em> senior designer Jessica Croft and Electronic Arts’ senior game design director Loel Phelps about the game’s unlikely emergence as one of the most queer-inclusive franchises in gaming. They explore the legendary story of how same-sex romance accidentally made it into the original game, the challenges of translating sexuality and gender into game systems, why so many LGBTQ players discovered their own identities in \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> long before they felt safe doing so in real life — and why some players are worried about where the game might be headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3392561231\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Jessica Croft, senior designer and lead designer at EA on The Sims 4\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Loel Phelps, senior game design director at Maxis\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss-that-changed-video-games\">The Kiss That Changed Video Games\u003c/a> — Simon Parkin, \u003cem>The New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcgamer.com/unearthed-the-sims-design-docs-show-the-debate-over-same-sex-relationships/\">Unearthed The Sims design docs show the internal debate over same-sex relationships\u003c/a> — Steven Messner, \u003cem>PC Gamer\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi-HWyh0Ybk\">Did The Sims make you gay? – a video essay.\u003c/a> — Alexander Avila, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bricksmagazine.co.uk/2020/08/27/the-sims-knew-i-was-queer-before-i-did/\">The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did \u003c/a>— Megan Elliot,\u003cem>BRICKS Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/feb/22/gay-weddings-for-russia-how-the-sims-became-a-battleground-for-the-lgbtq-community\">Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community \u003c/a>— Tom Regan, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://frvr.com/blog/news/the-sims-designer-says-that-the-series-diversity-is-critical-especially-at-times-like-now/\">The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful \u003c/a>— Lewis White, \u003cem>FIVR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a tabby or a tab head or part of the tab hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed. Eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the other day, I got out of bed and I did my normal morning chores. Fed the chickens, watered my crops, and checked in on my sweet baby cow plant. He ate one of my friends last week, so I’m keeping him on a really strict feeding schedule so he doesn’t try it again. I kissed my wife goodbye before she left for her job as an undertaker, and then I started getting ready for my job as a Grim Reaper. I just got promoted to Soul Slayer, which is a pretty big deal. Lots of responsibility there. But, just as I was about to leave, the gnomes started spawning around my house again. They went around breaking all my stuff, and when I tried to stop them, they had the audacity to strike me with lightning. Just another typical day in The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This franchise has been wildly popular since the first Sims game came out 26 years ago. It’s like a virtual dollhouse. You control these dolls, called Sims, and help them fulfill goals, manage their needs, and interact with their world. I love it. For the last 14 years, my sister and I have shared an account just to play this game. And together, We’ve logged more than 6,000 hours in The Sims 4 alone. I’m kind of scared to check where we clocked in on The Sims 3. The game is constantly evolving and adapting to whatever the current culture is. And in addition to some very silly gameplay, The Sims has become this oasis for diversity and representation. In queer spaces, Sims players, also known as Simmers, love to ask each other this question. Did The Sims make you gay? Why is that, you may ask?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Because it made a lot of people gay\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica Croft is a senior designer for The Sims 4. She’s had a hand in designing some of the features that make the game so unique, like the sexual orientation system. More on that later. The Sims is iconic because of its freedom. It lets players experience the game however they want. That freedom has given rise to a few distinct types of simmers. You might be a builder. Spending hours constructing and decorating complex architectural marvels. Maybe you’re a storyteller who plays the game like an eternal personal soap opera, or a completionist trying to get every possible achievement in the game. And at some point in their life, every Simmer has been a chaos agent, setting things on fire, ruining in-game relationships, even removing the ladder from their Sim’s pool so they get stuck and drown. You know. Playing God.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I would say it’s, to me, a storytelling tool. So you’re playing this game about everyday life, and in that game, you’re gonna have stories emerge around the characters you play. But I think ultimately, to try and characterize The Sims as one thing, kind of does it an injustice because it’s so many things to so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There are so many ways to play this game, but for a lot of players, including myself, The Sims provided this safe little sandbox to figure out who they were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think the fact that Sims is about crafting characters that might literally look, act, and have the same life you do has led a lot of folks to exploring who they are through The Sims. And I think it seems like a small thing, it’s just a game, like what’s the big deal? I figured out who I was through seeing myself in media because it let me know that who I am is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, Jessica led the Sims sexual orientation update. It was huge both for players and for the games industry overall. It allowed players to set specific parameters for who their Sims were attracted to and what kind of relationships they were interested in. But for years before this update ever rolled out, the game had already attracted a dedicated queer player base. In fact, same-sex relationships were possible from the very beginning when The Sims 1 launched in 2000. Jessica says this decision shifted the whole industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Back then it was pretty rare to have same-sex relationships in the game. And you saw more and more and more coming at that moment until where you are now where it’s actually pretty unusual I would say for a game where you create a character and embody that character to not have the option to have a same-sex relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And since those early days, The Sims has grown into the symbol of LGBTQ representation, getting more inclusive with every update. In other words, it’s gotten more gay. Today, The Sims is arguably the most explicitly queer mainstream game ever made. So how did we get here? We’re diving into a topic I love yapping about, The Sims. From the game’s origin story, to the character lore, to the technical snafus involved in coding sexuality, we’re opening a bunch of tabs on how this game became an oasis for LGBTQ representation, and why some players are worried that might change. So, a gay history of The Sims. Ready?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, let’s open our first tab. The Sims Gay Origin Story. The Sims is the brainchild of Will Wright, co-founder of the legendary game studio, Maxis, and creator of SimCity, SimEarth, and other beloved titles. This story starts in 1991, when Will and his family lost everything in the deadly Oakland Berkeley firestorm. In the aftermath, he and his wife began rebuilding, assessing what they needed and what it actually took to make a home. He had an idea for a life simulator, one that was totally open-ended. Where players start from scratch. Here he is speaking to KQED’s Snap Judgment for an upcoming episode that dives even deeper into this origin story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Will Wright: \u003c/strong>The goal is meant to be for the player to choose. So you can play The Sims and say, “Okay, I want my Sims to be super happy,” or “I want them to be top of their career,” or they have the biggest mansion with the most friends or the most babies, whatever. What I’d rather produce is present a series of possible goals. And I think that’s much more meaningful. And it makes it more about you. So, you know, you’re actually pursuing a goal that means something to you and you’re the one kind of measuring your progress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was a revolutionary idea in gaming at the time, but it had trouble gaining traction. The game had been stuck in development hell since the early 90s. The studio behind the game, Maxis, had been acquired by EA, Electronic Arts, while The Sims was still in development. And it was during this time that the first decisions around sexuality were being made. Will wanted to include same-sex relationships in the game because it was supposed to reflect real life. But it came on the heels of a major scandal in another Maxis game, the 1996 flight simulator, SimCopter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of SimCopter review from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>A bunch of dudes wearing Speedos that start kissing each other loudly. Not only that, but you can jump out and start making out with them yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was a joke programmed into the game by one of the developers, which could be triggered when a player met certain criteria. That developer was later fired for including it. So when it came to The Sims a few years later, the team was understandably worried about backlash. And after a lot of back and forth,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The team had decided that they weren’t going to do same-sex relationships in the original Sims game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica was a teenager at the time. She was not working on the game back then. But the lore of the game’s origin has been passed down through generations of developers. That’s because the queer legacy of The Sims, and everything it’s come to mean to LGBTQ players, started with a mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The dev who was coding the game was new to the team, and I guess he didn’t get the memo, or didn’t read the design doc, couldn’t be me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That programmer was Patrick Barrett, and according to an interview he did with The New Yorker in 2014, he did read the design document. Just the wrong version. Here’s what happened. It was the late 90s. Soon after Patrick joined the team, the game’s lead programmer went on vacation. Someone handed Patrick the design documents that outlined how all social interactions between characters in the game should be coded. But… He was given a version of the document from before the team decided to exclude gay relationships. So, Patrick wrote up the code for Sim conversations, arguments, and romance. And in Patrick’s version, romances between Sims of the same gender were allowed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>No one mentioned it. E3 was coming up, the hottest, most prestigious games industry convention of its time. And this was supposed to be the Sims big debut. Patrick was asked to put together a gameplay demo, which highlighted these different scripted scenarios for The Sims. One of them was a wedding. There were so many Sims attending that Patrick didn’t have time to script all of their interactions. That meant some of the characters would act autonomously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> They put everything together, shipped it off, and then at the trade show in front of a gigantic crowd and like one of the biggest trade shows for our industry, in front everybody, two female Sims kissed each other and everyone just went nuts. Like, it was one of those things where the cat was totally out of the bag. There was such buzz coming out of that moment that it had to be part of the game from that point on. And even though we got there by accident, I’m not picky. I’m glad it happened at all. And from that moment, The Sims kind of became the tip of the spear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This blunder at a trade show 27 years ago set something in motion that is still reverberating today. But considering how foundational the story is to Sims lore, I wanted to verify it. Is there anything backing up this story? Consider this our first side quest, tracking down the receipts. This much I can say. There’s no footage of this legendary kiss happening. While working on this episode, I spent days scrubbing through archived forums, interviews with Will Wright, and B-roll from news broadcasts covering the Sims demo. There is a lot of coverage of E3 in 1999.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Lauren Fielder for GameSpot TV from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Here we are! We’re on the floor of the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles, California, with a special edition of GameSpot TV.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some news reports have a sentence or two about The Sims, like a Washington Post write-up that called it, “a quiet little game,” and, “a surprise hit.” But there’s barely any coverage with details about The Sims demo. What I did manage to dig up is from a German DVD showcasing PC games that debuted at E3.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of DVD demo in German from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking German]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The part mentioning the Sims is just 22 seconds long. The fabled kiss does not appear. So I scrubbed through, no joke, hours of show footage from that year’s convention. This is the pre-vlogging era. I’m talking shaky camcorder clips, unedited, capturing these little snippets of what gaming was like in 1999.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of E3 convention in 1999 from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can be a master if you try! Pokemon! The adventure begins with the TV show…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These scenes were lost to time until someone found the tapes, digitized them, and then uploaded them to YouTube decades later. I found a brief flash of the Sims booth in one video, but the camera holder didn’t bother to focus on the screen. On the internet, there’s no mention of this groundbreaking lesbian kiss until 2014, when The New Yorker published the interview with Patrick Barrett. We tried reaching out to the programmer through multiple contact methods, but didn’t get a response. I even friended him on Facebook. But, crickets. Maybe one day, someone will uncover and digitize the grainy camcorder footage of the kiss that changed it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we do have is confirmation of an internal struggle at Maxis over whether to include same-sex relationships at all. In 2019, another programmer, Don Hopkins, released the design documents from 1998, months before that infamous E3 game demo. He criticized the prototype’s strictly enforced heterosexuality. In one version, trying to initiate a kiss with a Sim of the same gender would actually result in the Sim getting slapped. Here’s a note that Don left in the document.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dramatic reading of Don’s comment by Chris Egusa]: \u003c/strong>We are going to be expected to do better than that after the SimCopter fiasco and the lip service that Maxis publicly gave in response about not being anti-gay. And anyone offended by that needs to grow up and get a life. And hopefully our game will help them in that quest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims debuted at E3 months later. Gay romance and all. The full game was released the next year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> So it’s, it’s 2000, young Jessica is 16. Uh, and I’m reading my PC Mag, because we had physical media back then. And I see this article about this new game, The Sims, and it is not like anything else I’ve ever seen. It’s this quirky little game where instead of like, being a warrior, a wizard, or like flying spaceships, you’re just living a life. And to me I’m like, “How could that possibly be fun?” is my first thought. And then my second thought, “I’m kind of curious.” I want to see why people think this is fun. And I load up, I play it, and it just opened up this whole new space for me. And I’m like, “Huh, this is actually really interesting playing a game about just the everyday life of a character.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims was a hit. Critics praised it for the character customization, the totally unique gameplay, and the storytelling. For a lot of players, the best part was that they could be gay in the game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think like, so often when you talk about representation, the first of something, the first time you see a same-sex couple in like a major production, the first time you see a trans character in a major like piece of media, that really signals to everyone else that like, “Hey, you know, we can explore these spaces and we can tell these authentic stories and represent folks that are not represented,” and largely, it’s gonna be fine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There were limits. Like, straight Sims could get married, but gay Sims couldn’t. Okay. But, it was 26 years ago. And as cultural norms evolved, so did the game. But video games function based on defined rules. So, how do you fit something as nuanced as sexuality into lines of code? How does introducing human concepts of gender into a game alter non-human characters? And how did these updates affect the beloved Simmer tradition of woohoo-ing the Grim Reaper? (Woohoo-ing, by the way, is the Sims version of sex). We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break: more on the gay history of The Sims. Welcome back. Let’s open another tab: a Gay History of the Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The game, like, it didn’t say queer or not queer. It was, I was interacting and I chose to kiss a man and the game would be like, “Okay.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Lowell Phelps is a senior game design director at EA, and he’s worked on The Sims for over 15 years. He calls himself “a shepherd of ideas,” for the game. He spends a lot of time researching human psychology and how it can be applied to game design. But for many years before that, he was a college student living in a dorm with five other guys when The Sims 1 came out. How his life turned out today didn’t even seem like a possibility back then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I have a husband, I have child, like this is kind of my culture, even though I hadn’t really explored any of that growing up, but I could with The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sexuality didn’t necessarily exist in The Sims 1. None of the characters had any sexual preference. If they had a high enough relationship score with the player, it would unlock romantic interactions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Everybody was just default pansexual, right? And that was really fascinating to kind of see how the game chose not to make a choice for me, but waited for me to make that choice and drive the direction of these stories. Like being able to woohoo and kiss and just have dates with other characters in ways that maybe you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Same-sex couples couldn’t get married like straight Sims couples, but if they moved in together, the game treated them as if they were married anyway. The Sims 2 came out in 2004 and introduced gender preference to the game. It was a weighted system, hidden from players but shifted based on player choices. Think of a scale, tipping one way or the other depending on romantic interactions. So, if a female Sim flirted with a female character, they’d both develop a preference for women, and then autonomously flirt with other female Sims. And then those Sims would autonomously flirt with other female Sims, shifting their preferences. In other words, in The Sims 2, being gay was contagious. And although none of the pre-made characters were explicitly LGBTQ, there were a few that were coded to be queer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I found Sims 2 versions where we’d told stories about queer couples, um, and it was in the text and maybe how we set some of the parameters. I didn’t realize that until I started digging into the actual history. Um, and I kind of learned that the team has started, not started, but has always included the things that allow gender expression to happen in whatever way we felt comfortable, the person setting it up felt comfortable. So you’ll see it in descriptions, you’ll it in stories of the characters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The game also allowed Sims to formally propose to each other and plan weddings, regardless of gender. Players would have to buy a special in-game wedding object: a floral arch. When they clicked on it, if they were in a straight relationship, a bubble would pop up that said, “Get married,” triggering a cutscene where the two Sims would exchange rings and cry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Sims 2 wedding in Simlish from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking Simlish]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was basically the same thing for same-sex couples — but their bubble would say, “Join Union.” Today, that does seem pretty discriminatory. But back then, most states didn’t even offer domestic partnerships or civil unions for same-sex couples. The fact that you could have an in-game gay wedding at all was a pretty big deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Gay marriage was not a acceptable thing at the time, it was not legally approved. And just being able to have those joined unions, being able actually to have a situation where I can take the stories I’m playing out and have a lesbian couple and a gay couple and have the feeling that they are a family, they’re a collective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, I’m not gonna lie, as a kid, I used to stay up late on YouTube watching videos of gay weddings in The Sims 2 on the family computer. The scenes were always set to very on-the-nose music, like Katy Perry’s, “I Kissed a Girl,” or the theme song from The L Word. But as a queer preteen, the videos were eye-opening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> And The Sims, because of that first kiss, right? From the moment that happened, it felt like both the players and the creators, like the teams that are working on this product, felt a little bit of freedom to do what we needed to do to just express as many versions of life as we could.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> When The Sims 3 came out in 2009, the United States was at a real inflection point for marriage equality. Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that established marriage as a fundamental right for same-sex couples, was still years away. So you could get gay married in The Sims 3, but none of the game’s pre-made characters were officially gay. Pre-made Sims are fully fleshed out characters with backstories and relationships and skills and homes — already established by developers. But, just because characters weren’t explicitly gay doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. The game included several characters that were heavily implied to be LGBTQ. Like, a household of two women were labeled “roommates,” but they sleep in two beds pushed together in their pre-made house. Or, two guys labeled “best friends” who lived with their adopted daughter who has both of their last names.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We create characters that live in the world and have stories that they should be pre-built with. And those stories start by applying their preferences, their traits, their aspirations and their wants. And those tools give us a lot of control to say, “What is this initial starting story that the player might be jumping into if they play with a household that already exists?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The year before The Sims 3 release, Prop 8 passed in California, banning same-sex marriage. A federal court later struck it down, and in June 2013, California Governor Jerry Brown ordered county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses for gay couples. Which is where we get this meme of then-Attorney General Kamala Harris.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Kamala Harris from X]: \u003c/strong>You must start marriages immediately. You must start the marriages immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Later that year, The Sims 3 released an expansion pack called Roaring Heights, and with it, the first explicitly LGBTQ characters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So the Roaring Heights couple, the Dylan and Audrey, was really the first time I think we’d actually put a lesbian couple in a world as an actual family with the correct settings that said, “Hey, we are married, we’re a couple.” And that felt pretty transformative. So, right around the time that Prop 8 got overturned is kind of when we started introducing that as an actual element in the game, so players could experience it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> At that point, the next game in the series, The Sims 4, was already in the works. It was released in 2014, and this was the version that really transformed what it means to be represented in games, beyond who can woohoo and marry. In The Sims 4, the team tackled a new frontier: gender. Time for a new tab. Can a cat be non-binary? Two years after The Sims 4 release, the game underwent a major character customization overhaul. So, when you start a new game, you have the option to play as a pre-made household, or customize one yourself. That part is called Create-A-Sim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We started with male/female as the default for base game and we realized that just wasn’t good enough, right? We wanted to be able to allow, again, better representation, more nuance into the choice. So we quickly realized that thinking about maybe masculine or feminine expression is how we wanna actually tackle this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims 4 offers a series of gender-related choices for players to choose from. They can choose whether their Sim has a masculine frame or a feminine frame. And from there, choose whether they prefer masculine clothing or feminine clothing. It actually went further than just appearance. The game is rated T for Teen. Sims never get naked, unless you’re playing with a spicy mod. Wicked Whims players, you know who you are. But for the official game… That limitation, not showing body parts, got the development team to think about gender and expression beyond what’s assigned at birth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Different clothing preferences, regardless of what my physical appearance actually is. Being able to set whether I can get pregnant or not, or I stand up at the toilet instead of sitting down. It’s not about labeling. It’s about thinking about what is the behavior that’s happening and letting players choose what portion of that behavior is important to them. That’s why peeing standing up or using the toilet standing up is the approach instead of saying, “I have a specific body part,” right? That’s less important. It’s about the behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This new framing of gender led to the first canonically trans character, the spellcaster Morgyn Ember, who can’t get pregnant, can’t other Sims pregnant, has a masculine frame, and wears feminine clothing. Some players tried to romance Morgyn and were confused about their gender. In 2022, Morgyn’s pronouns were updated to they/them. It was part of a bigger game update that allowed players to set unique pronouns for their Sims. Updating a game like this, which has versions in many different languages, was actually pretty complicated. Only English versions of the game have customizable pronouns, which has been disappointing to some players. Here’s Jessica Croft again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The pronouns update was something that I think was very important to our community, especially obviously non-binary folks within our community. The difficulty there is just simply, language itself is not fully aligned on how to handle things like pronouns. They are heavily gendered and in a way where if you don’t study those things at all you might not realize it’s not just about translating a pronoun, it things like adjectives, articles, even past tense verbs are gendered in these places. And then further, some languages do have gender-neutral words, but they are restricted for objects. So, there’s a certain thing where it’s like, if we use that kind of language, does it cause additional problems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s a cliché saying, but perfect is the enemy of good. We wanted to get something out there that did a lot of good work, that represented a lot folks and made people feel seen, um, as soon as we could. And I think it’s one of those things where if you wait until you get the perfect version of something, where you solve all the problems, where we figure out how to do pronouns in every language, you might never release that thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has been out for 12 years now, and in that time, there have been dozens of additional packs — extra contents that includes new worlds, new features, and new pre-made characters. Every time it gets updated, it affects years of pre-existing game content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The Sims is a little bit weird. We have robots and we have skeletons and we have lots of other things that maybe you can ask yourself, “Do they have gender? Should they have gender?” Cats and dogs, when we did the non-binary update… You can make a cat and a dog non-binary, that’s okay. So really it comes down to character by character and thinking about is it important for this character to have an identity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think at one point we had non-binary horses in the horse pack, which, I’m sure those players were like, “Well, you should have just kept that,” and like, maybe, but it was definitely unintentional. When you work with a game like The Sims that’s just layers and layers of systems sitting on top of each other, you get these knock-on effects of some choices you make that are occasionally hilarious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> After the pronoun update, the Sims 4 unveiled its crown jewel for character customization: a giant overhaul of in-game sexual orientation. Jessica was actually leading the design for an expansion pack all about high school. The development team had been working on fine-tuning Sim sexuality, and Jessica pitched releasing that update with a high school expansion. Why there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> It’s a pack about high school that… It’s about being a teenager, it’s about figuring out who you are. That’s where, in real life a lot of folks do figure out who they are and start exploring questions of their sexuality. So it felt like the right place to do it and the team just rallied around that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, like with a gender update, this wasn’t a simple matter of slapping on some labels and letting players pick one. It had to be functional in gameplay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The space is so nuanced, the definitions folks have for certain words can differ, in ways where painting with a broad brush on what these labels mean can become incredibly divisive. That was one of the things that we discovered really quickly, working with GLAAD and It Gets Better, that fact. So eventually, we got to a spot where we didn’t use labels. It’s just strictly defining the characteristics of who you’re attracted to and the types of things that you’re into, to craft what is effectively a sexual orientation without the label.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So instead of picking from a menu of words like: “lesbian,” “gay,” “bi,” “asexual,” players just pick the genders they’re attracted to and whether they’re interested in romantic relationships and woohoo-ing. They also don’t have to make a decision. There’s an option for exploring. Jessica said this was also important to include because figuring it out is also a part of real life sexuality. However, players cannot opt out of this aspect of the game entirely. There’s no way to default set all Sims to be straight. When the update first came out, Jessica wrote this in a blog post.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think something along the lines of, “While we generally give players the option to toggle off certain gameplay elements, LGBTQIA+ identities are a fact of life, and not just a toggle you can switch on and off.” I stand by that statement. I frankly don’t care if you don’t like certain people. You can’t just turn them off, right? In real life or in a game. And I think it’s important to stand on business there. We want to commit to our vision for diversity and representation within The Sims, and that’s not a thing you get to just turn off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims has come so far since the accidental sapphic kiss 27 years ago. It’s way more inclusive, but far from perfect. Despite the expanded framing of gender, the whole system still operates within a binary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> When The Sims was originally engineered, in its very core, like, structural bones, there’s a gender binary. And that next step is like, how do we break this game out of this gender binary? It’s a tricky thing. It would require like this foundational rework of like, so many systems. If at some point we’re able to do an update to, to fully break the game out this gender binary like, foundation it has, that would be so meaningful. It would open up a lot of gameplay, too. Again, it’s immensely tricky. It’s like, a thing that would require really re-engineering a good chunk of the foundation of the game to make happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There have been some workarounds though. Loel talked about this recent feature that he really loves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So, one of my favorite things that we have added were binders and chest, uh… top surgery scars. Um, and those… Sorry, I get a little emotional talking about it. So my husband is trans. Being able to create his character before that transition after he came out, and have a screenshot of our family, my husband, my daughter, and me just in a space was really impactful. So while it didn’t physically bind the chest, just being able to put on a binder is a step in that transition of his story was really impactful. There’s so many different ways in which people live and have transitions. If I can give one little thing to any player that lets them tell those stories, it’s really important. And those little updates just make such an impact on being able to both represent yourself and feel like yourself in this digital world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve been playing The Sims for over half my life, and created so many different lives within the game. I still think about one of my first playthroughs. It was The Sims 3. I moved my Sim to a tropical island, fell in love with a mermaid, and we settled down on a houseboat together. At 13, being openly gay seemed just as fantastical as proposing to a mermaid. The whimsical queer life I built in that save file unfortunately came to an end —when my kitchen caught fire, with my Sims still in it, and instead of helping, my mermaid wife got stuck on a random floor tile and died of dehydration. The whole house boat went down. It was devastating. So, I started another save, and then another, and then probably a couple hundred more. And today, being openly gay isn’t that absurd at all. There’s a reason queer people make up such a large portion of The Sims player base. We reached out to Simmers to hear what this game has meant to them over the years. Here’s what they had to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Will be the first Simmer to hold my hands up and say I was a bit too interested in making my Sims kiss Sims of the same sex. And I think that for a lot of queer people, they will also be able to trace their own gameplay in The Sims back and have a lot of things suddenly make sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Owen McHall: \u003c/strong>The Sims was the first game I ever played where I could make the player character trans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephen Works (SpringSims): \u003c/strong>It felt more like home… It felt like my safe space where I could be who I want, how I want without any fear of judgment. As a queer Black male, I was able to recreate myself authentically from my skin tone to my hair type, to the clothing options. There were so many stories that I have told and created and shaped that I knew it was like, “This is where I wanna be for the rest of my life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mivyard:\u003c/strong> For me, as a queer kid growing up in a Christian school, I definitely felt like I had to be quiet about who I was and I didn’t see a lot of role models at school. And so, having The Sims as a tool for exploration and expression really helped me find a sense of belonging and it helped me feel confident, and proud of who I was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tonya (Gryphi): \u003c/strong>If I could have two girls kiss and fall in love in this game, then maybe it was okay in real life as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Being able to fall in with whoever you wanted might have been an oversight of the developers, it might have an accident that they forgot to write in the code. It’s ended up that in a time where it wasn’t really okay to be anything outside of the norm, The Sims has been a beacon of inclusivity, and that’s just grown over the years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has come to mean so much to so many queer players. It’s made such huge strides for LGBTQ inclusion — meaningful representation, without feeling like some kind of corporate pandering. But today, a lot of those players are really, deeply concerned about the future of The Sims. Late last year, Electronic Arts confirmed that the entire brand and its catalog, including The Sims, had been sold to private investors, a cohort that includes Jared Kushner’s firm, Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Sovereign Wealth Fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>It’s also a $55 billion deal, which is completely unprecedented. I mean, it’s hard to even, like, fathom the scale of that, but that actually is more than the entire music industry combined.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Kayla Sims, better known online as LilSimsie, is one of the the creators speaking out about this deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. And so a lot queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, we’re extending our deep dive. We have a few more tabs on what this deal really entails, how players are responding, and what The Sims team says about the future of the game. I’m gonna leave these tabs open for now. Come back next week for the second half of the story. And, if you’re dying for more before then, stick around after the credits for some bonus content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva with production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and did the dramatic reading for this episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the Simmers who contributed voice notes for this episode: Plumbella, Owen McHall, SpringSims, Mivyard, and Griphy. And thank you to John Fecile, senior producer for KQED’s Snap Judgment, for the tape of his interview with Will Wright. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I remember when the update for, I think it was maybe High School Years, when the sexuality update first came out, people were upset that the Grim Reaper was now asexual. They just really wanted to bang the Grim Reaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I mean, in Life and Death, we went back and made Grim woohoo-able again. Players have a fascination with our special characters… And at some point, the ownership of the thing becomes the person’s and not the dev team’s. Yeah, so yeah, Grim is an interesting case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Did The Sims make you gay?” is a long-running joke among Sims players. For millions, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> has been more than a video game — it’s been a place to experiment, tell stories, and explore identity. Long before LGBTQ representation became common in mainstream games, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> allowed same-sex relationships, helping create a devoted queer fan base that reshaped what players expected from virtual worlds.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In this episode, Morgan Sung talks with \u003cem>The Sims 4\u003c/em> senior designer Jessica Croft and Electronic Arts’ senior game design director Loel Phelps about the game’s unlikely emergence as one of the most queer-inclusive franchises in gaming. They explore the legendary story of how same-sex romance accidentally made it into the original game, the challenges of translating sexuality and gender into game systems, why so many LGBTQ players discovered their own identities in \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> long before they felt safe doing so in real life — and why some players are worried about where the game might be headed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Did The Sims make you gay?” is a long-running joke among Sims players. For millions, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> has been more than a video game — it’s been a place to experiment, tell stories, and explore identity. Long before LGBTQ representation became common in mainstream games, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> allowed same-sex relationships, helping create a devoted queer fan base that reshaped what players expected from virtual worlds.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In this episode, Morgan Sung talks with \u003cem>The Sims 4\u003c/em> senior designer Jessica Croft and Electronic Arts’ senior game design director Loel Phelps about the game’s unlikely emergence as one of the most queer-inclusive franchises in gaming. They explore the legendary story of how same-sex romance accidentally made it into the original game, the challenges of translating sexuality and gender into game systems, why so many LGBTQ players discovered their own identities in \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> long before they felt safe doing so in real life — and why some players are worried about where the game might be headed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"The Kiss That Changed Video Games — Simon Parkin, The New Yorker",
"Unearthed The Sims design docs show the internal debate over same-sex relationships — Steven Messner, PC Gamer",
"Did The Sims make you gay? – a video essay. — Alexander Avila, YouTube ",
"The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did — Megan Elliot,BRICKS Magazine",
"Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community — Tom Regan, The Guardian",
"The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful — Lewis White, FIVR"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss-that-changed-video-games\">The Kiss That Changed Video Games\u003c/a> — Simon Parkin, \u003cem>The New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss-that-changed-video-games\">The Kiss That Changed Video Games\u003c/a> — Simon Parkin, \u003cem>The New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcgamer.com/unearthed-the-sims-design-docs-show-the-debate-over-same-sex-relationships/\">Unearthed The Sims design docs show the internal debate over same-sex relationships\u003c/a> — Steven Messner, \u003cem>PC Gamer\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi-HWyh0Ybk\">Did The Sims make you gay? – a video essay.\u003c/a> — Alexander Avila, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bricksmagazine.co.uk/2020/08/27/the-sims-knew-i-was-queer-before-i-did/\">The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did \u003c/a>— Megan Elliot,\u003cem>BRICKS Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bricksmagazine.co.uk/2020/08/27/the-sims-knew-i-was-queer-before-i-did/\">The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did \u003c/a>— Megan Elliot,\u003cem>BRICKS Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/feb/22/gay-weddings-for-russia-how-the-sims-became-a-battleground-for-the-lgbtq-community\">Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community \u003c/a>— Tom Regan, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/feb/22/gay-weddings-for-russia-how-the-sims-became-a-battleground-for-the-lgbtq-community\">Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community \u003c/a>— Tom Regan, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://frvr.com/blog/news/the-sims-designer-says-that-the-series-diversity-is-critical-especially-at-times-like-now/\">The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful \u003c/a>— Lewis White, \u003cem>FIVR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://frvr.com/blog/news/the-sims-designer-says-that-the-series-diversity-is-critical-especially-at-times-like-now/\">The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful \u003c/a>— Lewis White, \u003cem>FIVR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a tabby or a tab head or part of the tab hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed. Eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a tabby or a tab head or part of the tab hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed. Eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the other day, I got out of bed and I did my normal morning chores. Fed the chickens, watered my crops, and checked in on my sweet baby cow plant. He ate one of my friends last week, so I’m keeping him on a really strict feeding schedule so he doesn’t try it again. I kissed my wife goodbye before she left for her job as an undertaker, and then I started getting ready for my job as a Grim Reaper. I just got promoted to Soul Slayer, which is a pretty big deal. Lots of responsibility there. But, just as I was about to leave, the gnomes started spawning around my house again. They went around breaking all my stuff, and when I tried to stop them, they had the audacity to strike me with lightning. Just another typical day in The Sims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the other day, I got out of bed and I did my normal morning chores. Fed the chickens, watered my crops, and checked in on my sweet baby cow plant. He ate one of my friends last week, so I’m keeping him on a really strict feeding schedule so he doesn’t try it again. I kissed my wife goodbye before she left for her job as an undertaker, and then I started getting ready for my job as a Grim Reaper. I just got promoted to Soul Slayer, which is a pretty big deal. Lots of responsibility there. But, just as I was about to leave, the gnomes started spawning around my house again. They went around breaking all my stuff, and when I tried to stop them, they had the audacity to strike me with lightning. Just another typical day in The Sims.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This franchise has been wildly popular since the first Sims game came out 26 years ago. It’s like a virtual dollhouse. You control these dolls, called Sims, and help them fulfill goals, manage their needs, and interact with their world. I love it. For the last 14 years, my sister and I have shared an account just to play this game. And together, We’ve logged more than 6,000 hours in The Sims 4 alone. I’m kind of scared to check where we clocked in on The Sims 3. The game is constantly evolving and adapting to whatever the current culture is. And in addition to some very silly gameplay, The Sims has become this oasis for diversity and representation. In queer spaces, Sims players, also known as Simmers, love to ask each other this question. Did The Sims make you gay? Why is that, you may ask?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This franchise has been wildly popular since the first Sims game came out 26 years ago. It’s like a virtual dollhouse. You control these dolls, called Sims, and help them fulfill goals, manage their needs, and interact with their world. I love it. For the last 14 years, my sister and I have shared an account just to play this game. And together, We’ve logged more than 6,000 hours in The Sims 4 alone. I’m kind of scared to check where we clocked in on The Sims 3. The game is constantly evolving and adapting to whatever the current culture is. And in addition to some very silly gameplay, The Sims has become this oasis for diversity and representation. In queer spaces, Sims players, also known as Simmers, love to ask each other this question. Did The Sims make you gay? Why is that, you may ask?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Because it made a lot of people gay\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Because it made a lot of people gay\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica Croft is a senior designer for The Sims 4. She’s had a hand in designing some of the features that make the game so unique, like the sexual orientation system. More on that later. The Sims is iconic because of its freedom. It lets players experience the game however they want. That freedom has given rise to a few distinct types of simmers. You might be a builder. Spending hours constructing and decorating complex architectural marvels. Maybe you’re a storyteller who plays the game like an eternal personal soap opera, or a completionist trying to get every possible achievement in the game. And at some point in their life, every Simmer has been a chaos agent, setting things on fire, ruining in-game relationships, even removing the ladder from their Sim’s pool so they get stuck and drown. You know. Playing God.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica Croft is a senior designer for The Sims 4. She’s had a hand in designing some of the features that make the game so unique, like the sexual orientation system. More on that later. The Sims is iconic because of its freedom. It lets players experience the game however they want. That freedom has given rise to a few distinct types of simmers. You might be a builder. Spending hours constructing and decorating complex architectural marvels. Maybe you’re a storyteller who plays the game like an eternal personal soap opera, or a completionist trying to get every possible achievement in the game. And at some point in their life, every Simmer has been a chaos agent, setting things on fire, ruining in-game relationships, even removing the ladder from their Sim’s pool so they get stuck and drown. You know. Playing God.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I would say it’s, to me, a storytelling tool. So you’re playing this game about everyday life, and in that game, you’re gonna have stories emerge around the characters you play. But I think ultimately, to try and characterize The Sims as one thing, kind of does it an injustice because it’s so many things to so many people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I would say it’s, to me, a storytelling tool. So you’re playing this game about everyday life, and in that game, you’re gonna have stories emerge around the characters you play. But I think ultimately, to try and characterize The Sims as one thing, kind of does it an injustice because it’s so many things to so many people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There are so many ways to play this game, but for a lot of players, including myself, The Sims provided this safe little sandbox to figure out who they were.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There are so many ways to play this game, but for a lot of players, including myself, The Sims provided this safe little sandbox to figure out who they were.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think the fact that Sims is about crafting characters that might literally look, act, and have the same life you do has led a lot of folks to exploring who they are through The Sims. And I think it seems like a small thing, it’s just a game, like what’s the big deal? I figured out who I was through seeing myself in media because it let me know that who I am is okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think the fact that Sims is about crafting characters that might literally look, act, and have the same life you do has led a lot of folks to exploring who they are through The Sims. And I think it seems like a small thing, it’s just a game, like what’s the big deal? I figured out who I was through seeing myself in media because it let me know that who I am is okay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, Jessica led the Sims sexual orientation update. It was huge both for players and for the games industry overall. It allowed players to set specific parameters for who their Sims were attracted to and what kind of relationships they were interested in. But for years before this update ever rolled out, the game had already attracted a dedicated queer player base. In fact, same-sex relationships were possible from the very beginning when The Sims 1 launched in 2000. Jessica says this decision shifted the whole industry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, Jessica led the Sims sexual orientation update. It was huge both for players and for the games industry overall. It allowed players to set specific parameters for who their Sims were attracted to and what kind of relationships they were interested in. But for years before this update ever rolled out, the game had already attracted a dedicated queer player base. In fact, same-sex relationships were possible from the very beginning when The Sims 1 launched in 2000. Jessica says this decision shifted the whole industry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Back then it was pretty rare to have same-sex relationships in the game. And you saw more and more and more coming at that moment until where you are now where it’s actually pretty unusual I would say for a game where you create a character and embody that character to not have the option to have a same-sex relationship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Back then it was pretty rare to have same-sex relationships in the game. And you saw more and more and more coming at that moment until where you are now where it’s actually pretty unusual I would say for a game where you create a character and embody that character to not have the option to have a same-sex relationship.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And since those early days, The Sims has grown into the symbol of LGBTQ representation, getting more inclusive with every update. In other words, it’s gotten more gay. Today, The Sims is arguably the most explicitly queer mainstream game ever made. So how did we get here? We’re diving into a topic I love yapping about, The Sims. From the game’s origin story, to the character lore, to the technical snafus involved in coding sexuality, we’re opening a bunch of tabs on how this game became an oasis for LGBTQ representation, and why some players are worried that might change. So, a gay history of The Sims. Ready?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And since those early days, The Sims has grown into the symbol of LGBTQ representation, getting more inclusive with every update. In other words, it’s gotten more gay. Today, The Sims is arguably the most explicitly queer mainstream game ever made. So how did we get here? We’re diving into a topic I love yapping about, The Sims. From the game’s origin story, to the character lore, to the technical snafus involved in coding sexuality, we’re opening a bunch of tabs on how this game became an oasis for LGBTQ representation, and why some players are worried that might change. So, a gay history of The Sims. Ready?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, let’s open our first tab. The Sims Gay Origin Story. The Sims is the brainchild of Will Wright, co-founder of the legendary game studio, Maxis, and creator of SimCity, SimEarth, and other beloved titles. This story starts in 1991, when Will and his family lost everything in the deadly Oakland Berkeley firestorm. In the aftermath, he and his wife began rebuilding, assessing what they needed and what it actually took to make a home. He had an idea for a life simulator, one that was totally open-ended. Where players start from scratch. Here he is speaking to KQED’s Snap Judgment for an upcoming episode that dives even deeper into this origin story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, let’s open our first tab. The Sims Gay Origin Story. The Sims is the brainchild of Will Wright, co-founder of the legendary game studio, Maxis, and creator of SimCity, SimEarth, and other beloved titles. This story starts in 1991, when Will and his family lost everything in the deadly Oakland Berkeley firestorm. In the aftermath, he and his wife began rebuilding, assessing what they needed and what it actually took to make a home. He had an idea for a life simulator, one that was totally open-ended. Where players start from scratch. Here he is speaking to KQED’s Snap Judgment for an upcoming episode that dives even deeper into this origin story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Will Wright: \u003c/strong>The goal is meant to be for the player to choose. So you can play The Sims and say, “Okay, I want my Sims to be super happy,” or “I want them to be top of their career,” or they have the biggest mansion with the most friends or the most babies, whatever. What I’d rather produce is present a series of possible goals. And I think that’s much more meaningful. And it makes it more about you. So, you know, you’re actually pursuing a goal that means something to you and you’re the one kind of measuring your progress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Will Wright: \u003c/strong>The goal is meant to be for the player to choose. So you can play The Sims and say, “Okay, I want my Sims to be super happy,” or “I want them to be top of their career,” or they have the biggest mansion with the most friends or the most babies, whatever. What I’d rather produce is present a series of possible goals. And I think that’s much more meaningful. And it makes it more about you. So, you know, you’re actually pursuing a goal that means something to you and you’re the one kind of measuring your progress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was a revolutionary idea in gaming at the time, but it had trouble gaining traction. The game had been stuck in development hell since the early 90s. The studio behind the game, Maxis, had been acquired by EA, Electronic Arts, while The Sims was still in development. And it was during this time that the first decisions around sexuality were being made. Will wanted to include same-sex relationships in the game because it was supposed to reflect real life. But it came on the heels of a major scandal in another Maxis game, the 1996 flight simulator, SimCopter.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was a revolutionary idea in gaming at the time, but it had trouble gaining traction. The game had been stuck in development hell since the early 90s. The studio behind the game, Maxis, had been acquired by EA, Electronic Arts, while The Sims was still in development. And it was during this time that the first decisions around sexuality were being made. Will wanted to include same-sex relationships in the game because it was supposed to reflect real life. But it came on the heels of a major scandal in another Maxis game, the 1996 flight simulator, SimCopter.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of SimCopter review from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>A bunch of dudes wearing Speedos that start kissing each other loudly. Not only that, but you can jump out and start making out with them yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of SimCopter review from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>A bunch of dudes wearing Speedos that start kissing each other loudly. Not only that, but you can jump out and start making out with them yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was a joke programmed into the game by one of the developers, which could be triggered when a player met certain criteria. That developer was later fired for including it. So when it came to The Sims a few years later, the team was understandably worried about backlash. And after a lot of back and forth,\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was a joke programmed into the game by one of the developers, which could be triggered when a player met certain criteria. That developer was later fired for including it. So when it came to The Sims a few years later, the team was understandably worried about backlash. And after a lot of back and forth,\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The team had decided that they weren’t going to do same-sex relationships in the original Sims game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The team had decided that they weren’t going to do same-sex relationships in the original Sims game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica was a teenager at the time. She was not working on the game back then. But the lore of the game’s origin has been passed down through generations of developers. That’s because the queer legacy of The Sims, and everything it’s come to mean to LGBTQ players, started with a mistake.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica was a teenager at the time. She was not working on the game back then. But the lore of the game’s origin has been passed down through generations of developers. That’s because the queer legacy of The Sims, and everything it’s come to mean to LGBTQ players, started with a mistake.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The dev who was coding the game was new to the team, and I guess he didn’t get the memo, or didn’t read the design doc, couldn’t be me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The dev who was coding the game was new to the team, and I guess he didn’t get the memo, or didn’t read the design doc, couldn’t be me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That programmer was Patrick Barrett, and according to an interview he did with The New Yorker in 2014, he did read the design document. Just the wrong version. Here’s what happened. It was the late 90s. Soon after Patrick joined the team, the game’s lead programmer went on vacation. Someone handed Patrick the design documents that outlined how all social interactions between characters in the game should be coded. But… He was given a version of the document from before the team decided to exclude gay relationships. So, Patrick wrote up the code for Sim conversations, arguments, and romance. And in Patrick’s version, romances between Sims of the same gender were allowed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That programmer was Patrick Barrett, and according to an interview he did with The New Yorker in 2014, he did read the design document. Just the wrong version. Here’s what happened. It was the late 90s. Soon after Patrick joined the team, the game’s lead programmer went on vacation. Someone handed Patrick the design documents that outlined how all social interactions between characters in the game should be coded. But… He was given a version of the document from before the team decided to exclude gay relationships. So, Patrick wrote up the code for Sim conversations, arguments, and romance. And in Patrick’s version, romances between Sims of the same gender were allowed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>No one mentioned it. E3 was coming up, the hottest, most prestigious games industry convention of its time. And this was supposed to be the Sims big debut. Patrick was asked to put together a gameplay demo, which highlighted these different scripted scenarios for The Sims. One of them was a wedding. There were so many Sims attending that Patrick didn’t have time to script all of their interactions. That meant some of the characters would act autonomously.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>No one mentioned it. E3 was coming up, the hottest, most prestigious games industry convention of its time. And this was supposed to be the Sims big debut. Patrick was asked to put together a gameplay demo, which highlighted these different scripted scenarios for The Sims. One of them was a wedding. There were so many Sims attending that Patrick didn’t have time to script all of their interactions. That meant some of the characters would act autonomously.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> They put everything together, shipped it off, and then at the trade show in front of a gigantic crowd and like one of the biggest trade shows for our industry, in front everybody, two female Sims kissed each other and everyone just went nuts. Like, it was one of those things where the cat was totally out of the bag. There was such buzz coming out of that moment that it had to be part of the game from that point on. And even though we got there by accident, I’m not picky. I’m glad it happened at all. And from that moment, The Sims kind of became the tip of the spear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> They put everything together, shipped it off, and then at the trade show in front of a gigantic crowd and like one of the biggest trade shows for our industry, in front everybody, two female Sims kissed each other and everyone just went nuts. Like, it was one of those things where the cat was totally out of the bag. There was such buzz coming out of that moment that it had to be part of the game from that point on. And even though we got there by accident, I’m not picky. I’m glad it happened at all. And from that moment, The Sims kind of became the tip of the spear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This blunder at a trade show 27 years ago set something in motion that is still reverberating today. But considering how foundational the story is to Sims lore, I wanted to verify it. Is there anything backing up this story? Consider this our first side quest, tracking down the receipts. This much I can say. There’s no footage of this legendary kiss happening. While working on this episode, I spent days scrubbing through archived forums, interviews with Will Wright, and B-roll from news broadcasts covering the Sims demo. There is a lot of coverage of E3 in 1999.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This blunder at a trade show 27 years ago set something in motion that is still reverberating today. But considering how foundational the story is to Sims lore, I wanted to verify it. Is there anything backing up this story? Consider this our first side quest, tracking down the receipts. This much I can say. There’s no footage of this legendary kiss happening. While working on this episode, I spent days scrubbing through archived forums, interviews with Will Wright, and B-roll from news broadcasts covering the Sims demo. There is a lot of coverage of E3 in 1999.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Lauren Fielder for GameSpot TV from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Here we are! We’re on the floor of the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles, California, with a special edition of GameSpot TV.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Lauren Fielder for GameSpot TV from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Here we are! We’re on the floor of the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles, California, with a special edition of GameSpot TV.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some news reports have a sentence or two about The Sims, like a Washington Post write-up that called it, “a quiet little game,” and, “a surprise hit.” But there’s barely any coverage with details about The Sims demo. What I did manage to dig up is from a German DVD showcasing PC games that debuted at E3.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some news reports have a sentence or two about The Sims, like a Washington Post write-up that called it, “a quiet little game,” and, “a surprise hit.” But there’s barely any coverage with details about The Sims demo. What I did manage to dig up is from a German DVD showcasing PC games that debuted at E3.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of DVD demo in German from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking German]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of DVD demo in German from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking German]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The part mentioning the Sims is just 22 seconds long. The fabled kiss does not appear. So I scrubbed through, no joke, hours of show footage from that year’s convention. This is the pre-vlogging era. I’m talking shaky camcorder clips, unedited, capturing these little snippets of what gaming was like in 1999.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The part mentioning the Sims is just 22 seconds long. The fabled kiss does not appear. So I scrubbed through, no joke, hours of show footage from that year’s convention. This is the pre-vlogging era. I’m talking shaky camcorder clips, unedited, capturing these little snippets of what gaming was like in 1999.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of E3 convention in 1999 from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can be a master if you try! Pokemon! The adventure begins with the TV show…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of E3 convention in 1999 from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can be a master if you try! Pokemon! The adventure begins with the TV show…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These scenes were lost to time until someone found the tapes, digitized them, and then uploaded them to YouTube decades later. I found a brief flash of the Sims booth in one video, but the camera holder didn’t bother to focus on the screen. On the internet, there’s no mention of this groundbreaking lesbian kiss until 2014, when The New Yorker published the interview with Patrick Barrett. We tried reaching out to the programmer through multiple contact methods, but didn’t get a response. I even friended him on Facebook. But, crickets. Maybe one day, someone will uncover and digitize the grainy camcorder footage of the kiss that changed it all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These scenes were lost to time until someone found the tapes, digitized them, and then uploaded them to YouTube decades later. I found a brief flash of the Sims booth in one video, but the camera holder didn’t bother to focus on the screen. On the internet, there’s no mention of this groundbreaking lesbian kiss until 2014, when The New Yorker published the interview with Patrick Barrett. We tried reaching out to the programmer through multiple contact methods, but didn’t get a response. I even friended him on Facebook. But, crickets. Maybe one day, someone will uncover and digitize the grainy camcorder footage of the kiss that changed it all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we do have is confirmation of an internal struggle at Maxis over whether to include same-sex relationships at all. In 2019, another programmer, Don Hopkins, released the design documents from 1998, months before that infamous E3 game demo. He criticized the prototype’s strictly enforced heterosexuality. In one version, trying to initiate a kiss with a Sim of the same gender would actually result in the Sim getting slapped. Here’s a note that Don left in the document.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we do have is confirmation of an internal struggle at Maxis over whether to include same-sex relationships at all. In 2019, another programmer, Don Hopkins, released the design documents from 1998, months before that infamous E3 game demo. He criticized the prototype’s strictly enforced heterosexuality. In one version, trying to initiate a kiss with a Sim of the same gender would actually result in the Sim getting slapped. Here’s a note that Don left in the document.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dramatic reading of Don’s comment by Chris Egusa]: \u003c/strong>We are going to be expected to do better than that after the SimCopter fiasco and the lip service that Maxis publicly gave in response about not being anti-gay. And anyone offended by that needs to grow up and get a life. And hopefully our game will help them in that quest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dramatic reading of Don’s comment by Chris Egusa]: \u003c/strong>We are going to be expected to do better than that after the SimCopter fiasco and the lip service that Maxis publicly gave in response about not being anti-gay. And anyone offended by that needs to grow up and get a life. And hopefully our game will help them in that quest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims debuted at E3 months later. Gay romance and all. The full game was released the next year.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims debuted at E3 months later. Gay romance and all. The full game was released the next year.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> So it’s, it’s 2000, young Jessica is 16. Uh, and I’m reading my PC Mag, because we had physical media back then. And I see this article about this new game, The Sims, and it is not like anything else I’ve ever seen. It’s this quirky little game where instead of like, being a warrior, a wizard, or like flying spaceships, you’re just living a life. And to me I’m like, “How could that possibly be fun?” is my first thought. And then my second thought, “I’m kind of curious.” I want to see why people think this is fun. And I load up, I play it, and it just opened up this whole new space for me. And I’m like, “Huh, this is actually really interesting playing a game about just the everyday life of a character.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> So it’s, it’s 2000, young Jessica is 16. Uh, and I’m reading my PC Mag, because we had physical media back then. And I see this article about this new game, The Sims, and it is not like anything else I’ve ever seen. It’s this quirky little game where instead of like, being a warrior, a wizard, or like flying spaceships, you’re just living a life. And to me I’m like, “How could that possibly be fun?” is my first thought. And then my second thought, “I’m kind of curious.” I want to see why people think this is fun. And I load up, I play it, and it just opened up this whole new space for me. And I’m like, “Huh, this is actually really interesting playing a game about just the everyday life of a character.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims was a hit. Critics praised it for the character customization, the totally unique gameplay, and the storytelling. For a lot of players, the best part was that they could be gay in the game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims was a hit. Critics praised it for the character customization, the totally unique gameplay, and the storytelling. For a lot of players, the best part was that they could be gay in the game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think like, so often when you talk about representation, the first of something, the first time you see a same-sex couple in like a major production, the first time you see a trans character in a major like piece of media, that really signals to everyone else that like, “Hey, you know, we can explore these spaces and we can tell these authentic stories and represent folks that are not represented,” and largely, it’s gonna be fine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think like, so often when you talk about representation, the first of something, the first time you see a same-sex couple in like a major production, the first time you see a trans character in a major like piece of media, that really signals to everyone else that like, “Hey, you know, we can explore these spaces and we can tell these authentic stories and represent folks that are not represented,” and largely, it’s gonna be fine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There were limits. Like, straight Sims could get married, but gay Sims couldn’t. Okay. But, it was 26 years ago. And as cultural norms evolved, so did the game. But video games function based on defined rules. So, how do you fit something as nuanced as sexuality into lines of code? How does introducing human concepts of gender into a game alter non-human characters? And how did these updates affect the beloved Simmer tradition of woohoo-ing the Grim Reaper? (Woohoo-ing, by the way, is the Sims version of sex). We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break: more on the gay history of The Sims. Welcome back. Let’s open another tab: a Gay History of the Sims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There were limits. Like, straight Sims could get married, but gay Sims couldn’t. Okay. But, it was 26 years ago. And as cultural norms evolved, so did the game. But video games function based on defined rules. So, how do you fit something as nuanced as sexuality into lines of code? How does introducing human concepts of gender into a game alter non-human characters? And how did these updates affect the beloved Simmer tradition of woohoo-ing the Grim Reaper? (Woohoo-ing, by the way, is the Sims version of sex). We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break: more on the gay history of The Sims. Welcome back. Let’s open another tab: a Gay History of the Sims.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The game, like, it didn’t say queer or not queer. It was, I was interacting and I chose to kiss a man and the game would be like, “Okay.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The game, like, it didn’t say queer or not queer. It was, I was interacting and I chose to kiss a man and the game would be like, “Okay.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Lowell Phelps is a senior game design director at EA, and he’s worked on The Sims for over 15 years. He calls himself “a shepherd of ideas,” for the game. He spends a lot of time researching human psychology and how it can be applied to game design. But for many years before that, he was a college student living in a dorm with five other guys when The Sims 1 came out. How his life turned out today didn’t even seem like a possibility back then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Lowell Phelps is a senior game design director at EA, and he’s worked on The Sims for over 15 years. He calls himself “a shepherd of ideas,” for the game. He spends a lot of time researching human psychology and how it can be applied to game design. But for many years before that, he was a college student living in a dorm with five other guys when The Sims 1 came out. How his life turned out today didn’t even seem like a possibility back then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I have a husband, I have child, like this is kind of my culture, even though I hadn’t really explored any of that growing up, but I could with The Sims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I have a husband, I have child, like this is kind of my culture, even though I hadn’t really explored any of that growing up, but I could with The Sims.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sexuality didn’t necessarily exist in The Sims 1. None of the characters had any sexual preference. If they had a high enough relationship score with the player, it would unlock romantic interactions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sexuality didn’t necessarily exist in The Sims 1. None of the characters had any sexual preference. If they had a high enough relationship score with the player, it would unlock romantic interactions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Everybody was just default pansexual, right? And that was really fascinating to kind of see how the game chose not to make a choice for me, but waited for me to make that choice and drive the direction of these stories. Like being able to woohoo and kiss and just have dates with other characters in ways that maybe you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in public.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Everybody was just default pansexual, right? And that was really fascinating to kind of see how the game chose not to make a choice for me, but waited for me to make that choice and drive the direction of these stories. Like being able to woohoo and kiss and just have dates with other characters in ways that maybe you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in public.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Same-sex couples couldn’t get married like straight Sims couples, but if they moved in together, the game treated them as if they were married anyway. The Sims 2 came out in 2004 and introduced gender preference to the game. It was a weighted system, hidden from players but shifted based on player choices. Think of a scale, tipping one way or the other depending on romantic interactions. So, if a female Sim flirted with a female character, they’d both develop a preference for women, and then autonomously flirt with other female Sims. And then those Sims would autonomously flirt with other female Sims, shifting their preferences. In other words, in The Sims 2, being gay was contagious. And although none of the pre-made characters were explicitly LGBTQ, there were a few that were coded to be queer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Same-sex couples couldn’t get married like straight Sims couples, but if they moved in together, the game treated them as if they were married anyway. The Sims 2 came out in 2004 and introduced gender preference to the game. It was a weighted system, hidden from players but shifted based on player choices. Think of a scale, tipping one way or the other depending on romantic interactions. So, if a female Sim flirted with a female character, they’d both develop a preference for women, and then autonomously flirt with other female Sims. And then those Sims would autonomously flirt with other female Sims, shifting their preferences. In other words, in The Sims 2, being gay was contagious. And although none of the pre-made characters were explicitly LGBTQ, there were a few that were coded to be queer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I found Sims 2 versions where we’d told stories about queer couples, um, and it was in the text and maybe how we set some of the parameters. I didn’t realize that until I started digging into the actual history. Um, and I kind of learned that the team has started, not started, but has always included the things that allow gender expression to happen in whatever way we felt comfortable, the person setting it up felt comfortable. So you’ll see it in descriptions, you’ll it in stories of the characters.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I found Sims 2 versions where we’d told stories about queer couples, um, and it was in the text and maybe how we set some of the parameters. I didn’t realize that until I started digging into the actual history. Um, and I kind of learned that the team has started, not started, but has always included the things that allow gender expression to happen in whatever way we felt comfortable, the person setting it up felt comfortable. So you’ll see it in descriptions, you’ll it in stories of the characters.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The game also allowed Sims to formally propose to each other and plan weddings, regardless of gender. Players would have to buy a special in-game wedding object: a floral arch. When they clicked on it, if they were in a straight relationship, a bubble would pop up that said, “Get married,” triggering a cutscene where the two Sims would exchange rings and cry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The game also allowed Sims to formally propose to each other and plan weddings, regardless of gender. Players would have to buy a special in-game wedding object: a floral arch. When they clicked on it, if they were in a straight relationship, a bubble would pop up that said, “Get married,” triggering a cutscene where the two Sims would exchange rings and cry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Sims 2 wedding in Simlish from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking Simlish]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Sims 2 wedding in Simlish from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking Simlish]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was basically the same thing for same-sex couples — but their bubble would say, “Join Union.” Today, that does seem pretty discriminatory. But back then, most states didn’t even offer domestic partnerships or civil unions for same-sex couples. The fact that you could have an in-game gay wedding at all was a pretty big deal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was basically the same thing for same-sex couples — but their bubble would say, “Join Union.” Today, that does seem pretty discriminatory. But back then, most states didn’t even offer domestic partnerships or civil unions for same-sex couples. The fact that you could have an in-game gay wedding at all was a pretty big deal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Gay marriage was not a acceptable thing at the time, it was not legally approved. And just being able to have those joined unions, being able actually to have a situation where I can take the stories I’m playing out and have a lesbian couple and a gay couple and have the feeling that they are a family, they’re a collective.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Gay marriage was not a acceptable thing at the time, it was not legally approved. And just being able to have those joined unions, being able actually to have a situation where I can take the stories I’m playing out and have a lesbian couple and a gay couple and have the feeling that they are a family, they’re a collective.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, I’m not gonna lie, as a kid, I used to stay up late on YouTube watching videos of gay weddings in The Sims 2 on the family computer. The scenes were always set to very on-the-nose music, like Katy Perry’s, “I Kissed a Girl,” or the theme song from The L Word. But as a queer preteen, the videos were eye-opening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, I’m not gonna lie, as a kid, I used to stay up late on YouTube watching videos of gay weddings in The Sims 2 on the family computer. The scenes were always set to very on-the-nose music, like Katy Perry’s, “I Kissed a Girl,” or the theme song from The L Word. But as a queer preteen, the videos were eye-opening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> And The Sims, because of that first kiss, right? From the moment that happened, it felt like both the players and the creators, like the teams that are working on this product, felt a little bit of freedom to do what we needed to do to just express as many versions of life as we could.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> And The Sims, because of that first kiss, right? From the moment that happened, it felt like both the players and the creators, like the teams that are working on this product, felt a little bit of freedom to do what we needed to do to just express as many versions of life as we could.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> When The Sims 3 came out in 2009, the United States was at a real inflection point for marriage equality. Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that established marriage as a fundamental right for same-sex couples, was still years away. So you could get gay married in The Sims 3, but none of the game’s pre-made characters were officially gay. Pre-made Sims are fully fleshed out characters with backstories and relationships and skills and homes — already established by developers. But, just because characters weren’t explicitly gay doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. The game included several characters that were heavily implied to be LGBTQ. Like, a household of two women were labeled “roommates,” but they sleep in two beds pushed together in their pre-made house. Or, two guys labeled “best friends” who lived with their adopted daughter who has both of their last names.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> When The Sims 3 came out in 2009, the United States was at a real inflection point for marriage equality. Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that established marriage as a fundamental right for same-sex couples, was still years away. So you could get gay married in The Sims 3, but none of the game’s pre-made characters were officially gay. Pre-made Sims are fully fleshed out characters with backstories and relationships and skills and homes — already established by developers. But, just because characters weren’t explicitly gay doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. The game included several characters that were heavily implied to be LGBTQ. Like, a household of two women were labeled “roommates,” but they sleep in two beds pushed together in their pre-made house. Or, two guys labeled “best friends” who lived with their adopted daughter who has both of their last names.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We create characters that live in the world and have stories that they should be pre-built with. And those stories start by applying their preferences, their traits, their aspirations and their wants. And those tools give us a lot of control to say, “What is this initial starting story that the player might be jumping into if they play with a household that already exists?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We create characters that live in the world and have stories that they should be pre-built with. And those stories start by applying their preferences, their traits, their aspirations and their wants. And those tools give us a lot of control to say, “What is this initial starting story that the player might be jumping into if they play with a household that already exists?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The year before The Sims 3 release, Prop 8 passed in California, banning same-sex marriage. A federal court later struck it down, and in June 2013, California Governor Jerry Brown ordered county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses for gay couples. Which is where we get this meme of then-Attorney General Kamala Harris.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The year before The Sims 3 release, Prop 8 passed in California, banning same-sex marriage. A federal court later struck it down, and in June 2013, California Governor Jerry Brown ordered county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses for gay couples. Which is where we get this meme of then-Attorney General Kamala Harris.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Kamala Harris from X]: \u003c/strong>You must start marriages immediately. You must start the marriages immediately.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Kamala Harris from X]: \u003c/strong>You must start marriages immediately. You must start the marriages immediately.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Later that year, The Sims 3 released an expansion pack called Roaring Heights, and with it, the first explicitly LGBTQ characters.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Later that year, The Sims 3 released an expansion pack called Roaring Heights, and with it, the first explicitly LGBTQ characters.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So the Roaring Heights couple, the Dylan and Audrey, was really the first time I think we’d actually put a lesbian couple in a world as an actual family with the correct settings that said, “Hey, we are married, we’re a couple.” And that felt pretty transformative. So, right around the time that Prop 8 got overturned is kind of when we started introducing that as an actual element in the game, so players could experience it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So the Roaring Heights couple, the Dylan and Audrey, was really the first time I think we’d actually put a lesbian couple in a world as an actual family with the correct settings that said, “Hey, we are married, we’re a couple.” And that felt pretty transformative. So, right around the time that Prop 8 got overturned is kind of when we started introducing that as an actual element in the game, so players could experience it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> At that point, the next game in the series, The Sims 4, was already in the works. It was released in 2014, and this was the version that really transformed what it means to be represented in games, beyond who can woohoo and marry. In The Sims 4, the team tackled a new frontier: gender. Time for a new tab. Can a cat be non-binary? Two years after The Sims 4 release, the game underwent a major character customization overhaul. So, when you start a new game, you have the option to play as a pre-made household, or customize one yourself. That part is called Create-A-Sim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> At that point, the next game in the series, The Sims 4, was already in the works. It was released in 2014, and this was the version that really transformed what it means to be represented in games, beyond who can woohoo and marry. In The Sims 4, the team tackled a new frontier: gender. Time for a new tab. Can a cat be non-binary? Two years after The Sims 4 release, the game underwent a major character customization overhaul. So, when you start a new game, you have the option to play as a pre-made household, or customize one yourself. That part is called Create-A-Sim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We started with male/female as the default for base game and we realized that just wasn’t good enough, right? We wanted to be able to allow, again, better representation, more nuance into the choice. So we quickly realized that thinking about maybe masculine or feminine expression is how we wanna actually tackle this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We started with male/female as the default for base game and we realized that just wasn’t good enough, right? We wanted to be able to allow, again, better representation, more nuance into the choice. So we quickly realized that thinking about maybe masculine or feminine expression is how we wanna actually tackle this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims 4 offers a series of gender-related choices for players to choose from. They can choose whether their Sim has a masculine frame or a feminine frame. And from there, choose whether they prefer masculine clothing or feminine clothing. It actually went further than just appearance. The game is rated T for Teen. Sims never get naked, unless you’re playing with a spicy mod. Wicked Whims players, you know who you are. But for the official game… That limitation, not showing body parts, got the development team to think about gender and expression beyond what’s assigned at birth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims 4 offers a series of gender-related choices for players to choose from. They can choose whether their Sim has a masculine frame or a feminine frame. And from there, choose whether they prefer masculine clothing or feminine clothing. It actually went further than just appearance. The game is rated T for Teen. Sims never get naked, unless you’re playing with a spicy mod. Wicked Whims players, you know who you are. But for the official game… That limitation, not showing body parts, got the development team to think about gender and expression beyond what’s assigned at birth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Different clothing preferences, regardless of what my physical appearance actually is. Being able to set whether I can get pregnant or not, or I stand up at the toilet instead of sitting down. It’s not about labeling. It’s about thinking about what is the behavior that’s happening and letting players choose what portion of that behavior is important to them. That’s why peeing standing up or using the toilet standing up is the approach instead of saying, “I have a specific body part,” right? That’s less important. It’s about the behavior.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Different clothing preferences, regardless of what my physical appearance actually is. Being able to set whether I can get pregnant or not, or I stand up at the toilet instead of sitting down. It’s not about labeling. It’s about thinking about what is the behavior that’s happening and letting players choose what portion of that behavior is important to them. That’s why peeing standing up or using the toilet standing up is the approach instead of saying, “I have a specific body part,” right? That’s less important. It’s about the behavior.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This new framing of gender led to the first canonically trans character, the spellcaster Morgyn Ember, who can’t get pregnant, can’t other Sims pregnant, has a masculine frame, and wears feminine clothing. Some players tried to romance Morgyn and were confused about their gender. In 2022, Morgyn’s pronouns were updated to they/them. It was part of a bigger game update that allowed players to set unique pronouns for their Sims. Updating a game like this, which has versions in many different languages, was actually pretty complicated. Only English versions of the game have customizable pronouns, which has been disappointing to some players. Here’s Jessica Croft again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This new framing of gender led to the first canonically trans character, the spellcaster Morgyn Ember, who can’t get pregnant, can’t other Sims pregnant, has a masculine frame, and wears feminine clothing. Some players tried to romance Morgyn and were confused about their gender. In 2022, Morgyn’s pronouns were updated to they/them. It was part of a bigger game update that allowed players to set unique pronouns for their Sims. Updating a game like this, which has versions in many different languages, was actually pretty complicated. Only English versions of the game have customizable pronouns, which has been disappointing to some players. Here’s Jessica Croft again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The pronouns update was something that I think was very important to our community, especially obviously non-binary folks within our community. The difficulty there is just simply, language itself is not fully aligned on how to handle things like pronouns. They are heavily gendered and in a way where if you don’t study those things at all you might not realize it’s not just about translating a pronoun, it things like adjectives, articles, even past tense verbs are gendered in these places. And then further, some languages do have gender-neutral words, but they are restricted for objects. So, there’s a certain thing where it’s like, if we use that kind of language, does it cause additional problems?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The pronouns update was something that I think was very important to our community, especially obviously non-binary folks within our community. The difficulty there is just simply, language itself is not fully aligned on how to handle things like pronouns. They are heavily gendered and in a way where if you don’t study those things at all you might not realize it’s not just about translating a pronoun, it things like adjectives, articles, even past tense verbs are gendered in these places. And then further, some languages do have gender-neutral words, but they are restricted for objects. So, there’s a certain thing where it’s like, if we use that kind of language, does it cause additional problems?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s a cliché saying, but perfect is the enemy of good. We wanted to get something out there that did a lot of good work, that represented a lot folks and made people feel seen, um, as soon as we could. And I think it’s one of those things where if you wait until you get the perfect version of something, where you solve all the problems, where we figure out how to do pronouns in every language, you might never release that thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s a cliché saying, but perfect is the enemy of good. We wanted to get something out there that did a lot of good work, that represented a lot folks and made people feel seen, um, as soon as we could. And I think it’s one of those things where if you wait until you get the perfect version of something, where you solve all the problems, where we figure out how to do pronouns in every language, you might never release that thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has been out for 12 years now, and in that time, there have been dozens of additional packs — extra contents that includes new worlds, new features, and new pre-made characters. Every time it gets updated, it affects years of pre-existing game content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has been out for 12 years now, and in that time, there have been dozens of additional packs — extra contents that includes new worlds, new features, and new pre-made characters. Every time it gets updated, it affects years of pre-existing game content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The Sims is a little bit weird. We have robots and we have skeletons and we have lots of other things that maybe you can ask yourself, “Do they have gender? Should they have gender?” Cats and dogs, when we did the non-binary update… You can make a cat and a dog non-binary, that’s okay. So really it comes down to character by character and thinking about is it important for this character to have an identity?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The Sims is a little bit weird. We have robots and we have skeletons and we have lots of other things that maybe you can ask yourself, “Do they have gender? Should they have gender?” Cats and dogs, when we did the non-binary update… You can make a cat and a dog non-binary, that’s okay. So really it comes down to character by character and thinking about is it important for this character to have an identity?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think at one point we had non-binary horses in the horse pack, which, I’m sure those players were like, “Well, you should have just kept that,” and like, maybe, but it was definitely unintentional. When you work with a game like The Sims that’s just layers and layers of systems sitting on top of each other, you get these knock-on effects of some choices you make that are occasionally hilarious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think at one point we had non-binary horses in the horse pack, which, I’m sure those players were like, “Well, you should have just kept that,” and like, maybe, but it was definitely unintentional. When you work with a game like The Sims that’s just layers and layers of systems sitting on top of each other, you get these knock-on effects of some choices you make that are occasionally hilarious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> After the pronoun update, the Sims 4 unveiled its crown jewel for character customization: a giant overhaul of in-game sexual orientation. Jessica was actually leading the design for an expansion pack all about high school. The development team had been working on fine-tuning Sim sexuality, and Jessica pitched releasing that update with a high school expansion. Why there?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> After the pronoun update, the Sims 4 unveiled its crown jewel for character customization: a giant overhaul of in-game sexual orientation. Jessica was actually leading the design for an expansion pack all about high school. The development team had been working on fine-tuning Sim sexuality, and Jessica pitched releasing that update with a high school expansion. Why there?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> It’s a pack about high school that… It’s about being a teenager, it’s about figuring out who you are. That’s where, in real life a lot of folks do figure out who they are and start exploring questions of their sexuality. So it felt like the right place to do it and the team just rallied around that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> It’s a pack about high school that… It’s about being a teenager, it’s about figuring out who you are. That’s where, in real life a lot of folks do figure out who they are and start exploring questions of their sexuality. So it felt like the right place to do it and the team just rallied around that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, like with a gender update, this wasn’t a simple matter of slapping on some labels and letting players pick one. It had to be functional in gameplay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, like with a gender update, this wasn’t a simple matter of slapping on some labels and letting players pick one. It had to be functional in gameplay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The space is so nuanced, the definitions folks have for certain words can differ, in ways where painting with a broad brush on what these labels mean can become incredibly divisive. That was one of the things that we discovered really quickly, working with GLAAD and It Gets Better, that fact. So eventually, we got to a spot where we didn’t use labels. It’s just strictly defining the characteristics of who you’re attracted to and the types of things that you’re into, to craft what is effectively a sexual orientation without the label.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The space is so nuanced, the definitions folks have for certain words can differ, in ways where painting with a broad brush on what these labels mean can become incredibly divisive. That was one of the things that we discovered really quickly, working with GLAAD and It Gets Better, that fact. So eventually, we got to a spot where we didn’t use labels. It’s just strictly defining the characteristics of who you’re attracted to and the types of things that you’re into, to craft what is effectively a sexual orientation without the label.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So instead of picking from a menu of words like: “lesbian,” “gay,” “bi,” “asexual,” players just pick the genders they’re attracted to and whether they’re interested in romantic relationships and woohoo-ing. They also don’t have to make a decision. There’s an option for exploring. Jessica said this was also important to include because figuring it out is also a part of real life sexuality. However, players cannot opt out of this aspect of the game entirely. There’s no way to default set all Sims to be straight. When the update first came out, Jessica wrote this in a blog post.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So instead of picking from a menu of words like: “lesbian,” “gay,” “bi,” “asexual,” players just pick the genders they’re attracted to and whether they’re interested in romantic relationships and woohoo-ing. They also don’t have to make a decision. There’s an option for exploring. Jessica said this was also important to include because figuring it out is also a part of real life sexuality. However, players cannot opt out of this aspect of the game entirely. There’s no way to default set all Sims to be straight. When the update first came out, Jessica wrote this in a blog post.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think something along the lines of, “While we generally give players the option to toggle off certain gameplay elements, LGBTQIA+ identities are a fact of life, and not just a toggle you can switch on and off.” I stand by that statement. I frankly don’t care if you don’t like certain people. You can’t just turn them off, right? In real life or in a game. And I think it’s important to stand on business there. We want to commit to our vision for diversity and representation within The Sims, and that’s not a thing you get to just turn off.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think something along the lines of, “While we generally give players the option to toggle off certain gameplay elements, LGBTQIA+ identities are a fact of life, and not just a toggle you can switch on and off.” I stand by that statement. I frankly don’t care if you don’t like certain people. You can’t just turn them off, right? In real life or in a game. And I think it’s important to stand on business there. We want to commit to our vision for diversity and representation within The Sims, and that’s not a thing you get to just turn off.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims has come so far since the accidental sapphic kiss 27 years ago. It’s way more inclusive, but far from perfect. Despite the expanded framing of gender, the whole system still operates within a binary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims has come so far since the accidental sapphic kiss 27 years ago. It’s way more inclusive, but far from perfect. Despite the expanded framing of gender, the whole system still operates within a binary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> When The Sims was originally engineered, in its very core, like, structural bones, there’s a gender binary. And that next step is like, how do we break this game out of this gender binary? It’s a tricky thing. It would require like this foundational rework of like, so many systems. If at some point we’re able to do an update to, to fully break the game out this gender binary like, foundation it has, that would be so meaningful. It would open up a lot of gameplay, too. Again, it’s immensely tricky. It’s like, a thing that would require really re-engineering a good chunk of the foundation of the game to make happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> When The Sims was originally engineered, in its very core, like, structural bones, there’s a gender binary. And that next step is like, how do we break this game out of this gender binary? It’s a tricky thing. It would require like this foundational rework of like, so many systems. If at some point we’re able to do an update to, to fully break the game out this gender binary like, foundation it has, that would be so meaningful. It would open up a lot of gameplay, too. Again, it’s immensely tricky. It’s like, a thing that would require really re-engineering a good chunk of the foundation of the game to make happen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There have been some workarounds though. Loel talked about this recent feature that he really loves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There have been some workarounds though. Loel talked about this recent feature that he really loves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So, one of my favorite things that we have added were binders and chest, uh… top surgery scars. Um, and those… Sorry, I get a little emotional talking about it. So my husband is trans. Being able to create his character before that transition after he came out, and have a screenshot of our family, my husband, my daughter, and me just in a space was really impactful. So while it didn’t physically bind the chest, just being able to put on a binder is a step in that transition of his story was really impactful. There’s so many different ways in which people live and have transitions. If I can give one little thing to any player that lets them tell those stories, it’s really important. And those little updates just make such an impact on being able to both represent yourself and feel like yourself in this digital world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So, one of my favorite things that we have added were binders and chest, uh… top surgery scars. Um, and those… Sorry, I get a little emotional talking about it. So my husband is trans. Being able to create his character before that transition after he came out, and have a screenshot of our family, my husband, my daughter, and me just in a space was really impactful. So while it didn’t physically bind the chest, just being able to put on a binder is a step in that transition of his story was really impactful. There’s so many different ways in which people live and have transitions. If I can give one little thing to any player that lets them tell those stories, it’s really important. And those little updates just make such an impact on being able to both represent yourself and feel like yourself in this digital world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve been playing The Sims for over half my life, and created so many different lives within the game. I still think about one of my first playthroughs. It was The Sims 3. I moved my Sim to a tropical island, fell in love with a mermaid, and we settled down on a houseboat together. At 13, being openly gay seemed just as fantastical as proposing to a mermaid. The whimsical queer life I built in that save file unfortunately came to an end —when my kitchen caught fire, with my Sims still in it, and instead of helping, my mermaid wife got stuck on a random floor tile and died of dehydration. The whole house boat went down. It was devastating. So, I started another save, and then another, and then probably a couple hundred more. And today, being openly gay isn’t that absurd at all. There’s a reason queer people make up such a large portion of The Sims player base. We reached out to Simmers to hear what this game has meant to them over the years. Here’s what they had to say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve been playing The Sims for over half my life, and created so many different lives within the game. I still think about one of my first playthroughs. It was The Sims 3. I moved my Sim to a tropical island, fell in love with a mermaid, and we settled down on a houseboat together. At 13, being openly gay seemed just as fantastical as proposing to a mermaid. The whimsical queer life I built in that save file unfortunately came to an end —when my kitchen caught fire, with my Sims still in it, and instead of helping, my mermaid wife got stuck on a random floor tile and died of dehydration. The whole house boat went down. It was devastating. So, I started another save, and then another, and then probably a couple hundred more. And today, being openly gay isn’t that absurd at all. There’s a reason queer people make up such a large portion of The Sims player base. We reached out to Simmers to hear what this game has meant to them over the years. Here’s what they had to say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Will be the first Simmer to hold my hands up and say I was a bit too interested in making my Sims kiss Sims of the same sex. And I think that for a lot of queer people, they will also be able to trace their own gameplay in The Sims back and have a lot of things suddenly make sense.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Will be the first Simmer to hold my hands up and say I was a bit too interested in making my Sims kiss Sims of the same sex. And I think that for a lot of queer people, they will also be able to trace their own gameplay in The Sims back and have a lot of things suddenly make sense.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Owen McHall: \u003c/strong>The Sims was the first game I ever played where I could make the player character trans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephen Works (SpringSims): \u003c/strong>It felt more like home… It felt like my safe space where I could be who I want, how I want without any fear of judgment. As a queer Black male, I was able to recreate myself authentically from my skin tone to my hair type, to the clothing options. There were so many stories that I have told and created and shaped that I knew it was like, “This is where I wanna be for the rest of my life.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephen Works (SpringSims): \u003c/strong>It felt more like home… It felt like my safe space where I could be who I want, how I want without any fear of judgment. As a queer Black male, I was able to recreate myself authentically from my skin tone to my hair type, to the clothing options. There were so many stories that I have told and created and shaped that I knew it was like, “This is where I wanna be for the rest of my life.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mivyard:\u003c/strong> For me, as a queer kid growing up in a Christian school, I definitely felt like I had to be quiet about who I was and I didn’t see a lot of role models at school. And so, having The Sims as a tool for exploration and expression really helped me find a sense of belonging and it helped me feel confident, and proud of who I was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mivyard:\u003c/strong> For me, as a queer kid growing up in a Christian school, I definitely felt like I had to be quiet about who I was and I didn’t see a lot of role models at school. And so, having The Sims as a tool for exploration and expression really helped me find a sense of belonging and it helped me feel confident, and proud of who I was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tonya (Gryphi): \u003c/strong>If I could have two girls kiss and fall in love in this game, then maybe it was okay in real life as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tonya (Gryphi): \u003c/strong>If I could have two girls kiss and fall in love in this game, then maybe it was okay in real life as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Being able to fall in with whoever you wanted might have been an oversight of the developers, it might have an accident that they forgot to write in the code. It’s ended up that in a time where it wasn’t really okay to be anything outside of the norm, The Sims has been a beacon of inclusivity, and that’s just grown over the years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Being able to fall in with whoever you wanted might have been an oversight of the developers, it might have an accident that they forgot to write in the code. It’s ended up that in a time where it wasn’t really okay to be anything outside of the norm, The Sims has been a beacon of inclusivity, and that’s just grown over the years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has come to mean so much to so many queer players. It’s made such huge strides for LGBTQ inclusion — meaningful representation, without feeling like some kind of corporate pandering. But today, a lot of those players are really, deeply concerned about the future of The Sims. Late last year, Electronic Arts confirmed that the entire brand and its catalog, including The Sims, had been sold to private investors, a cohort that includes Jared Kushner’s firm, Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Sovereign Wealth Fund.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has come to mean so much to so many queer players. It’s made such huge strides for LGBTQ inclusion — meaningful representation, without feeling like some kind of corporate pandering. But today, a lot of those players are really, deeply concerned about the future of The Sims. Late last year, Electronic Arts confirmed that the entire brand and its catalog, including The Sims, had been sold to private investors, a cohort that includes Jared Kushner’s firm, Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Sovereign Wealth Fund.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>It’s also a $55 billion deal, which is completely unprecedented. I mean, it’s hard to even, like, fathom the scale of that, but that actually is more than the entire music industry combined.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>It’s also a $55 billion deal, which is completely unprecedented. I mean, it’s hard to even, like, fathom the scale of that, but that actually is more than the entire music industry combined.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Kayla Sims, better known online as LilSimsie, is one of the the creators speaking out about this deal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Kayla Sims, better known online as LilSimsie, is one of the the creators speaking out about this deal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. And so a lot queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. And so a lot queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, we’re extending our deep dive. We have a few more tabs on what this deal really entails, how players are responding, and what The Sims team says about the future of the game. I’m gonna leave these tabs open for now. Come back next week for the second half of the story. And, if you’re dying for more before then, stick around after the credits for some bonus content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, we’re extending our deep dive. We have a few more tabs on what this deal really entails, how players are responding, and what The Sims team says about the future of the game. I’m gonna leave these tabs open for now. Come back next week for the second half of the story. And, if you’re dying for more before then, stick around after the credits for some bonus content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva with production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and did the dramatic reading for this episode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva with production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and did the dramatic reading for this episode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the Simmers who contributed voice notes for this episode: Plumbella, Owen McHall, SpringSims, Mivyard, and Griphy. And thank you to John Fecile, senior producer for KQED’s Snap Judgment, for the tape of his interview with Will Wright. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the Simmers who contributed voice notes for this episode: Plumbella, Owen McHall, SpringSims, Mivyard, and Griphy. And thank you to John Fecile, senior producer for KQED’s Snap Judgment, for the tape of his interview with Will Wright. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I remember when the update for, I think it was maybe High School Years, when the sexuality update first came out, people were upset that the Grim Reaper was now asexual. They just really wanted to bang the Grim Reaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I mean, in Life and Death, we went back and made Grim woohoo-able again. Players have a fascination with our special characters… And at some point, the ownership of the thing becomes the person’s and not the dev team’s. Yeah, so yeah, Grim is an interesting case.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I mean, in Life and Death, we went back and made Grim woohoo-able again. Players have a fascination with our special characters… And at some point, the ownership of the thing becomes the person’s and not the dev team’s. Yeah, so yeah, Grim is an interesting case.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Did The Sims make you gay?” is a long-running joke among Sims players. For millions, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> has been more than a video game — it’s been a place to experiment, tell stories, and explore identity. Long before LGBTQ representation became common in mainstream games, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> allowed same-sex relationships, helping create a devoted queer fan base that reshaped what players expected from virtual worlds.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In this episode, Morgan Sung talks with \u003cem>The Sims 4\u003c/em> senior designer Jessica Croft and Electronic Arts’ senior game design director Loel Phelps about the game’s unlikely emergence as one of the most queer-inclusive franchises in gaming. They explore the legendary story of how same-sex romance accidentally made it into the original game, the challenges of translating sexuality and gender into game systems, why so many LGBTQ players discovered their own identities in \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> long before they felt safe doing so in real life — and why some players are worried about where the game might be headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3392561231\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Jessica Croft, senior designer and lead designer at EA on The Sims 4\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Loel Phelps, senior game design director at Maxis\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss-that-changed-video-games\">The Kiss That Changed Video Games\u003c/a> — Simon Parkin, \u003cem>The New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcgamer.com/unearthed-the-sims-design-docs-show-the-debate-over-same-sex-relationships/\">Unearthed The Sims design docs show the internal debate over same-sex relationships\u003c/a> — Steven Messner, \u003cem>PC Gamer\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi-HWyh0Ybk\">Did The Sims make you gay? – a video essay.\u003c/a> — Alexander Avila, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bricksmagazine.co.uk/2020/08/27/the-sims-knew-i-was-queer-before-i-did/\">The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did \u003c/a>— Megan Elliot,\u003cem>BRICKS Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/feb/22/gay-weddings-for-russia-how-the-sims-became-a-battleground-for-the-lgbtq-community\">Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community \u003c/a>— Tom Regan, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://frvr.com/blog/news/the-sims-designer-says-that-the-series-diversity-is-critical-especially-at-times-like-now/\">The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful \u003c/a>— Lewis White, \u003cem>FIVR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a tabby or a tab head or part of the tab hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed. Eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the other day, I got out of bed and I did my normal morning chores. Fed the chickens, watered my crops, and checked in on my sweet baby cow plant. He ate one of my friends last week, so I’m keeping him on a really strict feeding schedule so he doesn’t try it again. I kissed my wife goodbye before she left for her job as an undertaker, and then I started getting ready for my job as a Grim Reaper. I just got promoted to Soul Slayer, which is a pretty big deal. Lots of responsibility there. But, just as I was about to leave, the gnomes started spawning around my house again. They went around breaking all my stuff, and when I tried to stop them, they had the audacity to strike me with lightning. Just another typical day in The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This franchise has been wildly popular since the first Sims game came out 26 years ago. It’s like a virtual dollhouse. You control these dolls, called Sims, and help them fulfill goals, manage their needs, and interact with their world. I love it. For the last 14 years, my sister and I have shared an account just to play this game. And together, We’ve logged more than 6,000 hours in The Sims 4 alone. I’m kind of scared to check where we clocked in on The Sims 3. The game is constantly evolving and adapting to whatever the current culture is. And in addition to some very silly gameplay, The Sims has become this oasis for diversity and representation. In queer spaces, Sims players, also known as Simmers, love to ask each other this question. Did The Sims make you gay? Why is that, you may ask?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Because it made a lot of people gay\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica Croft is a senior designer for The Sims 4. She’s had a hand in designing some of the features that make the game so unique, like the sexual orientation system. More on that later. The Sims is iconic because of its freedom. It lets players experience the game however they want. That freedom has given rise to a few distinct types of simmers. You might be a builder. Spending hours constructing and decorating complex architectural marvels. Maybe you’re a storyteller who plays the game like an eternal personal soap opera, or a completionist trying to get every possible achievement in the game. And at some point in their life, every Simmer has been a chaos agent, setting things on fire, ruining in-game relationships, even removing the ladder from their Sim’s pool so they get stuck and drown. You know. Playing God.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I would say it’s, to me, a storytelling tool. So you’re playing this game about everyday life, and in that game, you’re gonna have stories emerge around the characters you play. But I think ultimately, to try and characterize The Sims as one thing, kind of does it an injustice because it’s so many things to so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There are so many ways to play this game, but for a lot of players, including myself, The Sims provided this safe little sandbox to figure out who they were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think the fact that Sims is about crafting characters that might literally look, act, and have the same life you do has led a lot of folks to exploring who they are through The Sims. And I think it seems like a small thing, it’s just a game, like what’s the big deal? I figured out who I was through seeing myself in media because it let me know that who I am is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, Jessica led the Sims sexual orientation update. It was huge both for players and for the games industry overall. It allowed players to set specific parameters for who their Sims were attracted to and what kind of relationships they were interested in. But for years before this update ever rolled out, the game had already attracted a dedicated queer player base. In fact, same-sex relationships were possible from the very beginning when The Sims 1 launched in 2000. Jessica says this decision shifted the whole industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Back then it was pretty rare to have same-sex relationships in the game. And you saw more and more and more coming at that moment until where you are now where it’s actually pretty unusual I would say for a game where you create a character and embody that character to not have the option to have a same-sex relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And since those early days, The Sims has grown into the symbol of LGBTQ representation, getting more inclusive with every update. In other words, it’s gotten more gay. Today, The Sims is arguably the most explicitly queer mainstream game ever made. So how did we get here? We’re diving into a topic I love yapping about, The Sims. From the game’s origin story, to the character lore, to the technical snafus involved in coding sexuality, we’re opening a bunch of tabs on how this game became an oasis for LGBTQ representation, and why some players are worried that might change. So, a gay history of The Sims. Ready?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, let’s open our first tab. The Sims Gay Origin Story. The Sims is the brainchild of Will Wright, co-founder of the legendary game studio, Maxis, and creator of SimCity, SimEarth, and other beloved titles. This story starts in 1991, when Will and his family lost everything in the deadly Oakland Berkeley firestorm. In the aftermath, he and his wife began rebuilding, assessing what they needed and what it actually took to make a home. He had an idea for a life simulator, one that was totally open-ended. Where players start from scratch. Here he is speaking to KQED’s Snap Judgment for an upcoming episode that dives even deeper into this origin story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Will Wright: \u003c/strong>The goal is meant to be for the player to choose. So you can play The Sims and say, “Okay, I want my Sims to be super happy,” or “I want them to be top of their career,” or they have the biggest mansion with the most friends or the most babies, whatever. What I’d rather produce is present a series of possible goals. And I think that’s much more meaningful. And it makes it more about you. So, you know, you’re actually pursuing a goal that means something to you and you’re the one kind of measuring your progress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was a revolutionary idea in gaming at the time, but it had trouble gaining traction. The game had been stuck in development hell since the early 90s. The studio behind the game, Maxis, had been acquired by EA, Electronic Arts, while The Sims was still in development. And it was during this time that the first decisions around sexuality were being made. Will wanted to include same-sex relationships in the game because it was supposed to reflect real life. But it came on the heels of a major scandal in another Maxis game, the 1996 flight simulator, SimCopter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of SimCopter review from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>A bunch of dudes wearing Speedos that start kissing each other loudly. Not only that, but you can jump out and start making out with them yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was a joke programmed into the game by one of the developers, which could be triggered when a player met certain criteria. That developer was later fired for including it. So when it came to The Sims a few years later, the team was understandably worried about backlash. And after a lot of back and forth,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The team had decided that they weren’t going to do same-sex relationships in the original Sims game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica was a teenager at the time. She was not working on the game back then. But the lore of the game’s origin has been passed down through generations of developers. That’s because the queer legacy of The Sims, and everything it’s come to mean to LGBTQ players, started with a mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The dev who was coding the game was new to the team, and I guess he didn’t get the memo, or didn’t read the design doc, couldn’t be me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That programmer was Patrick Barrett, and according to an interview he did with The New Yorker in 2014, he did read the design document. Just the wrong version. Here’s what happened. It was the late 90s. Soon after Patrick joined the team, the game’s lead programmer went on vacation. Someone handed Patrick the design documents that outlined how all social interactions between characters in the game should be coded. But… He was given a version of the document from before the team decided to exclude gay relationships. So, Patrick wrote up the code for Sim conversations, arguments, and romance. And in Patrick’s version, romances between Sims of the same gender were allowed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>No one mentioned it. E3 was coming up, the hottest, most prestigious games industry convention of its time. And this was supposed to be the Sims big debut. Patrick was asked to put together a gameplay demo, which highlighted these different scripted scenarios for The Sims. One of them was a wedding. There were so many Sims attending that Patrick didn’t have time to script all of their interactions. That meant some of the characters would act autonomously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> They put everything together, shipped it off, and then at the trade show in front of a gigantic crowd and like one of the biggest trade shows for our industry, in front everybody, two female Sims kissed each other and everyone just went nuts. Like, it was one of those things where the cat was totally out of the bag. There was such buzz coming out of that moment that it had to be part of the game from that point on. And even though we got there by accident, I’m not picky. I’m glad it happened at all. And from that moment, The Sims kind of became the tip of the spear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This blunder at a trade show 27 years ago set something in motion that is still reverberating today. But considering how foundational the story is to Sims lore, I wanted to verify it. Is there anything backing up this story? Consider this our first side quest, tracking down the receipts. This much I can say. There’s no footage of this legendary kiss happening. While working on this episode, I spent days scrubbing through archived forums, interviews with Will Wright, and B-roll from news broadcasts covering the Sims demo. There is a lot of coverage of E3 in 1999.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Lauren Fielder for GameSpot TV from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Here we are! We’re on the floor of the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles, California, with a special edition of GameSpot TV.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some news reports have a sentence or two about The Sims, like a Washington Post write-up that called it, “a quiet little game,” and, “a surprise hit.” But there’s barely any coverage with details about The Sims demo. What I did manage to dig up is from a German DVD showcasing PC games that debuted at E3.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of DVD demo in German from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking German]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The part mentioning the Sims is just 22 seconds long. The fabled kiss does not appear. So I scrubbed through, no joke, hours of show footage from that year’s convention. This is the pre-vlogging era. I’m talking shaky camcorder clips, unedited, capturing these little snippets of what gaming was like in 1999.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of E3 convention in 1999 from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can be a master if you try! Pokemon! The adventure begins with the TV show…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These scenes were lost to time until someone found the tapes, digitized them, and then uploaded them to YouTube decades later. I found a brief flash of the Sims booth in one video, but the camera holder didn’t bother to focus on the screen. On the internet, there’s no mention of this groundbreaking lesbian kiss until 2014, when The New Yorker published the interview with Patrick Barrett. We tried reaching out to the programmer through multiple contact methods, but didn’t get a response. I even friended him on Facebook. But, crickets. Maybe one day, someone will uncover and digitize the grainy camcorder footage of the kiss that changed it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we do have is confirmation of an internal struggle at Maxis over whether to include same-sex relationships at all. In 2019, another programmer, Don Hopkins, released the design documents from 1998, months before that infamous E3 game demo. He criticized the prototype’s strictly enforced heterosexuality. In one version, trying to initiate a kiss with a Sim of the same gender would actually result in the Sim getting slapped. Here’s a note that Don left in the document.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dramatic reading of Don’s comment by Chris Egusa]: \u003c/strong>We are going to be expected to do better than that after the SimCopter fiasco and the lip service that Maxis publicly gave in response about not being anti-gay. And anyone offended by that needs to grow up and get a life. And hopefully our game will help them in that quest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims debuted at E3 months later. Gay romance and all. The full game was released the next year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> So it’s, it’s 2000, young Jessica is 16. Uh, and I’m reading my PC Mag, because we had physical media back then. And I see this article about this new game, The Sims, and it is not like anything else I’ve ever seen. It’s this quirky little game where instead of like, being a warrior, a wizard, or like flying spaceships, you’re just living a life. And to me I’m like, “How could that possibly be fun?” is my first thought. And then my second thought, “I’m kind of curious.” I want to see why people think this is fun. And I load up, I play it, and it just opened up this whole new space for me. And I’m like, “Huh, this is actually really interesting playing a game about just the everyday life of a character.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims was a hit. Critics praised it for the character customization, the totally unique gameplay, and the storytelling. For a lot of players, the best part was that they could be gay in the game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think like, so often when you talk about representation, the first of something, the first time you see a same-sex couple in like a major production, the first time you see a trans character in a major like piece of media, that really signals to everyone else that like, “Hey, you know, we can explore these spaces and we can tell these authentic stories and represent folks that are not represented,” and largely, it’s gonna be fine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There were limits. Like, straight Sims could get married, but gay Sims couldn’t. Okay. But, it was 26 years ago. And as cultural norms evolved, so did the game. But video games function based on defined rules. So, how do you fit something as nuanced as sexuality into lines of code? How does introducing human concepts of gender into a game alter non-human characters? And how did these updates affect the beloved Simmer tradition of woohoo-ing the Grim Reaper? (Woohoo-ing, by the way, is the Sims version of sex). We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break: more on the gay history of The Sims. Welcome back. Let’s open another tab: a Gay History of the Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The game, like, it didn’t say queer or not queer. It was, I was interacting and I chose to kiss a man and the game would be like, “Okay.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Lowell Phelps is a senior game design director at EA, and he’s worked on The Sims for over 15 years. He calls himself “a shepherd of ideas,” for the game. He spends a lot of time researching human psychology and how it can be applied to game design. But for many years before that, he was a college student living in a dorm with five other guys when The Sims 1 came out. How his life turned out today didn’t even seem like a possibility back then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I have a husband, I have child, like this is kind of my culture, even though I hadn’t really explored any of that growing up, but I could with The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sexuality didn’t necessarily exist in The Sims 1. None of the characters had any sexual preference. If they had a high enough relationship score with the player, it would unlock romantic interactions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Everybody was just default pansexual, right? And that was really fascinating to kind of see how the game chose not to make a choice for me, but waited for me to make that choice and drive the direction of these stories. Like being able to woohoo and kiss and just have dates with other characters in ways that maybe you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Same-sex couples couldn’t get married like straight Sims couples, but if they moved in together, the game treated them as if they were married anyway. The Sims 2 came out in 2004 and introduced gender preference to the game. It was a weighted system, hidden from players but shifted based on player choices. Think of a scale, tipping one way or the other depending on romantic interactions. So, if a female Sim flirted with a female character, they’d both develop a preference for women, and then autonomously flirt with other female Sims. And then those Sims would autonomously flirt with other female Sims, shifting their preferences. In other words, in The Sims 2, being gay was contagious. And although none of the pre-made characters were explicitly LGBTQ, there were a few that were coded to be queer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I found Sims 2 versions where we’d told stories about queer couples, um, and it was in the text and maybe how we set some of the parameters. I didn’t realize that until I started digging into the actual history. Um, and I kind of learned that the team has started, not started, but has always included the things that allow gender expression to happen in whatever way we felt comfortable, the person setting it up felt comfortable. So you’ll see it in descriptions, you’ll it in stories of the characters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The game also allowed Sims to formally propose to each other and plan weddings, regardless of gender. Players would have to buy a special in-game wedding object: a floral arch. When they clicked on it, if they were in a straight relationship, a bubble would pop up that said, “Get married,” triggering a cutscene where the two Sims would exchange rings and cry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Sims 2 wedding in Simlish from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking Simlish]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was basically the same thing for same-sex couples — but their bubble would say, “Join Union.” Today, that does seem pretty discriminatory. But back then, most states didn’t even offer domestic partnerships or civil unions for same-sex couples. The fact that you could have an in-game gay wedding at all was a pretty big deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Gay marriage was not a acceptable thing at the time, it was not legally approved. And just being able to have those joined unions, being able actually to have a situation where I can take the stories I’m playing out and have a lesbian couple and a gay couple and have the feeling that they are a family, they’re a collective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, I’m not gonna lie, as a kid, I used to stay up late on YouTube watching videos of gay weddings in The Sims 2 on the family computer. The scenes were always set to very on-the-nose music, like Katy Perry’s, “I Kissed a Girl,” or the theme song from The L Word. But as a queer preteen, the videos were eye-opening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> And The Sims, because of that first kiss, right? From the moment that happened, it felt like both the players and the creators, like the teams that are working on this product, felt a little bit of freedom to do what we needed to do to just express as many versions of life as we could.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> When The Sims 3 came out in 2009, the United States was at a real inflection point for marriage equality. Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that established marriage as a fundamental right for same-sex couples, was still years away. So you could get gay married in The Sims 3, but none of the game’s pre-made characters were officially gay. Pre-made Sims are fully fleshed out characters with backstories and relationships and skills and homes — already established by developers. But, just because characters weren’t explicitly gay doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. The game included several characters that were heavily implied to be LGBTQ. Like, a household of two women were labeled “roommates,” but they sleep in two beds pushed together in their pre-made house. Or, two guys labeled “best friends” who lived with their adopted daughter who has both of their last names.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We create characters that live in the world and have stories that they should be pre-built with. And those stories start by applying their preferences, their traits, their aspirations and their wants. And those tools give us a lot of control to say, “What is this initial starting story that the player might be jumping into if they play with a household that already exists?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The year before The Sims 3 release, Prop 8 passed in California, banning same-sex marriage. A federal court later struck it down, and in June 2013, California Governor Jerry Brown ordered county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses for gay couples. Which is where we get this meme of then-Attorney General Kamala Harris.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Kamala Harris from X]: \u003c/strong>You must start marriages immediately. You must start the marriages immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Later that year, The Sims 3 released an expansion pack called Roaring Heights, and with it, the first explicitly LGBTQ characters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So the Roaring Heights couple, the Dylan and Audrey, was really the first time I think we’d actually put a lesbian couple in a world as an actual family with the correct settings that said, “Hey, we are married, we’re a couple.” And that felt pretty transformative. So, right around the time that Prop 8 got overturned is kind of when we started introducing that as an actual element in the game, so players could experience it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> At that point, the next game in the series, The Sims 4, was already in the works. It was released in 2014, and this was the version that really transformed what it means to be represented in games, beyond who can woohoo and marry. In The Sims 4, the team tackled a new frontier: gender. Time for a new tab. Can a cat be non-binary? Two years after The Sims 4 release, the game underwent a major character customization overhaul. So, when you start a new game, you have the option to play as a pre-made household, or customize one yourself. That part is called Create-A-Sim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We started with male/female as the default for base game and we realized that just wasn’t good enough, right? We wanted to be able to allow, again, better representation, more nuance into the choice. So we quickly realized that thinking about maybe masculine or feminine expression is how we wanna actually tackle this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims 4 offers a series of gender-related choices for players to choose from. They can choose whether their Sim has a masculine frame or a feminine frame. And from there, choose whether they prefer masculine clothing or feminine clothing. It actually went further than just appearance. The game is rated T for Teen. Sims never get naked, unless you’re playing with a spicy mod. Wicked Whims players, you know who you are. But for the official game… That limitation, not showing body parts, got the development team to think about gender and expression beyond what’s assigned at birth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Different clothing preferences, regardless of what my physical appearance actually is. Being able to set whether I can get pregnant or not, or I stand up at the toilet instead of sitting down. It’s not about labeling. It’s about thinking about what is the behavior that’s happening and letting players choose what portion of that behavior is important to them. That’s why peeing standing up or using the toilet standing up is the approach instead of saying, “I have a specific body part,” right? That’s less important. It’s about the behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This new framing of gender led to the first canonically trans character, the spellcaster Morgyn Ember, who can’t get pregnant, can’t other Sims pregnant, has a masculine frame, and wears feminine clothing. Some players tried to romance Morgyn and were confused about their gender. In 2022, Morgyn’s pronouns were updated to they/them. It was part of a bigger game update that allowed players to set unique pronouns for their Sims. Updating a game like this, which has versions in many different languages, was actually pretty complicated. Only English versions of the game have customizable pronouns, which has been disappointing to some players. Here’s Jessica Croft again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The pronouns update was something that I think was very important to our community, especially obviously non-binary folks within our community. The difficulty there is just simply, language itself is not fully aligned on how to handle things like pronouns. They are heavily gendered and in a way where if you don’t study those things at all you might not realize it’s not just about translating a pronoun, it things like adjectives, articles, even past tense verbs are gendered in these places. And then further, some languages do have gender-neutral words, but they are restricted for objects. So, there’s a certain thing where it’s like, if we use that kind of language, does it cause additional problems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s a cliché saying, but perfect is the enemy of good. We wanted to get something out there that did a lot of good work, that represented a lot folks and made people feel seen, um, as soon as we could. And I think it’s one of those things where if you wait until you get the perfect version of something, where you solve all the problems, where we figure out how to do pronouns in every language, you might never release that thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has been out for 12 years now, and in that time, there have been dozens of additional packs — extra contents that includes new worlds, new features, and new pre-made characters. Every time it gets updated, it affects years of pre-existing game content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The Sims is a little bit weird. We have robots and we have skeletons and we have lots of other things that maybe you can ask yourself, “Do they have gender? Should they have gender?” Cats and dogs, when we did the non-binary update… You can make a cat and a dog non-binary, that’s okay. So really it comes down to character by character and thinking about is it important for this character to have an identity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think at one point we had non-binary horses in the horse pack, which, I’m sure those players were like, “Well, you should have just kept that,” and like, maybe, but it was definitely unintentional. When you work with a game like The Sims that’s just layers and layers of systems sitting on top of each other, you get these knock-on effects of some choices you make that are occasionally hilarious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> After the pronoun update, the Sims 4 unveiled its crown jewel for character customization: a giant overhaul of in-game sexual orientation. Jessica was actually leading the design for an expansion pack all about high school. The development team had been working on fine-tuning Sim sexuality, and Jessica pitched releasing that update with a high school expansion. Why there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> It’s a pack about high school that… It’s about being a teenager, it’s about figuring out who you are. That’s where, in real life a lot of folks do figure out who they are and start exploring questions of their sexuality. So it felt like the right place to do it and the team just rallied around that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, like with a gender update, this wasn’t a simple matter of slapping on some labels and letting players pick one. It had to be functional in gameplay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The space is so nuanced, the definitions folks have for certain words can differ, in ways where painting with a broad brush on what these labels mean can become incredibly divisive. That was one of the things that we discovered really quickly, working with GLAAD and It Gets Better, that fact. So eventually, we got to a spot where we didn’t use labels. It’s just strictly defining the characteristics of who you’re attracted to and the types of things that you’re into, to craft what is effectively a sexual orientation without the label.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So instead of picking from a menu of words like: “lesbian,” “gay,” “bi,” “asexual,” players just pick the genders they’re attracted to and whether they’re interested in romantic relationships and woohoo-ing. They also don’t have to make a decision. There’s an option for exploring. Jessica said this was also important to include because figuring it out is also a part of real life sexuality. However, players cannot opt out of this aspect of the game entirely. There’s no way to default set all Sims to be straight. When the update first came out, Jessica wrote this in a blog post.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think something along the lines of, “While we generally give players the option to toggle off certain gameplay elements, LGBTQIA+ identities are a fact of life, and not just a toggle you can switch on and off.” I stand by that statement. I frankly don’t care if you don’t like certain people. You can’t just turn them off, right? In real life or in a game. And I think it’s important to stand on business there. We want to commit to our vision for diversity and representation within The Sims, and that’s not a thing you get to just turn off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims has come so far since the accidental sapphic kiss 27 years ago. It’s way more inclusive, but far from perfect. Despite the expanded framing of gender, the whole system still operates within a binary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> When The Sims was originally engineered, in its very core, like, structural bones, there’s a gender binary. And that next step is like, how do we break this game out of this gender binary? It’s a tricky thing. It would require like this foundational rework of like, so many systems. If at some point we’re able to do an update to, to fully break the game out this gender binary like, foundation it has, that would be so meaningful. It would open up a lot of gameplay, too. Again, it’s immensely tricky. It’s like, a thing that would require really re-engineering a good chunk of the foundation of the game to make happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There have been some workarounds though. Loel talked about this recent feature that he really loves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So, one of my favorite things that we have added were binders and chest, uh… top surgery scars. Um, and those… Sorry, I get a little emotional talking about it. So my husband is trans. Being able to create his character before that transition after he came out, and have a screenshot of our family, my husband, my daughter, and me just in a space was really impactful. So while it didn’t physically bind the chest, just being able to put on a binder is a step in that transition of his story was really impactful. There’s so many different ways in which people live and have transitions. If I can give one little thing to any player that lets them tell those stories, it’s really important. And those little updates just make such an impact on being able to both represent yourself and feel like yourself in this digital world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve been playing The Sims for over half my life, and created so many different lives within the game. I still think about one of my first playthroughs. It was The Sims 3. I moved my Sim to a tropical island, fell in love with a mermaid, and we settled down on a houseboat together. At 13, being openly gay seemed just as fantastical as proposing to a mermaid. The whimsical queer life I built in that save file unfortunately came to an end —when my kitchen caught fire, with my Sims still in it, and instead of helping, my mermaid wife got stuck on a random floor tile and died of dehydration. The whole house boat went down. It was devastating. So, I started another save, and then another, and then probably a couple hundred more. And today, being openly gay isn’t that absurd at all. There’s a reason queer people make up such a large portion of The Sims player base. We reached out to Simmers to hear what this game has meant to them over the years. Here’s what they had to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Will be the first Simmer to hold my hands up and say I was a bit too interested in making my Sims kiss Sims of the same sex. And I think that for a lot of queer people, they will also be able to trace their own gameplay in The Sims back and have a lot of things suddenly make sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Owen McHall: \u003c/strong>The Sims was the first game I ever played where I could make the player character trans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephen Works (SpringSims): \u003c/strong>It felt more like home… It felt like my safe space where I could be who I want, how I want without any fear of judgment. As a queer Black male, I was able to recreate myself authentically from my skin tone to my hair type, to the clothing options. There were so many stories that I have told and created and shaped that I knew it was like, “This is where I wanna be for the rest of my life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mivyard:\u003c/strong> For me, as a queer kid growing up in a Christian school, I definitely felt like I had to be quiet about who I was and I didn’t see a lot of role models at school. And so, having The Sims as a tool for exploration and expression really helped me find a sense of belonging and it helped me feel confident, and proud of who I was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tonya (Gryphi): \u003c/strong>If I could have two girls kiss and fall in love in this game, then maybe it was okay in real life as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Being able to fall in with whoever you wanted might have been an oversight of the developers, it might have an accident that they forgot to write in the code. It’s ended up that in a time where it wasn’t really okay to be anything outside of the norm, The Sims has been a beacon of inclusivity, and that’s just grown over the years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has come to mean so much to so many queer players. It’s made such huge strides for LGBTQ inclusion — meaningful representation, without feeling like some kind of corporate pandering. But today, a lot of those players are really, deeply concerned about the future of The Sims. Late last year, Electronic Arts confirmed that the entire brand and its catalog, including The Sims, had been sold to private investors, a cohort that includes Jared Kushner’s firm, Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Sovereign Wealth Fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>It’s also a $55 billion deal, which is completely unprecedented. I mean, it’s hard to even, like, fathom the scale of that, but that actually is more than the entire music industry combined.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Kayla Sims, better known online as LilSimsie, is one of the the creators speaking out about this deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. And so a lot queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, we’re extending our deep dive. We have a few more tabs on what this deal really entails, how players are responding, and what The Sims team says about the future of the game. I’m gonna leave these tabs open for now. Come back next week for the second half of the story. And, if you’re dying for more before then, stick around after the credits for some bonus content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva with production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and did the dramatic reading for this episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the Simmers who contributed voice notes for this episode: Plumbella, Owen McHall, SpringSims, Mivyard, and Griphy. And thank you to John Fecile, senior producer for KQED’s Snap Judgment, for the tape of his interview with Will Wright. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I remember when the update for, I think it was maybe High School Years, when the sexuality update first came out, people were upset that the Grim Reaper was now asexual. They just really wanted to bang the Grim Reaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I mean, in Life and Death, we went back and made Grim woohoo-able again. Players have a fascination with our special characters… And at some point, the ownership of the thing becomes the person’s and not the dev team’s. Yeah, so yeah, Grim is an interesting case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "how-to-prove-youre-not-ai",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During a recent phone call, BBC tech columnist Thomas Germain couldn’t convince his aunt that he \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">wasn’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> AI. Being unable to distinguish a real person from a fabricated version is a problem born from the sheer volume of AI-generated content flooding the internet — and one that’s increased dramatically in the last year alone. Even world leaders are now plagued by the issue: a glitchy video of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked an enduring conspiracy theory that he was really dead and his public appearances on social media were an AI-driven cover up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a world where everything looks fake, how do we know what’s real? Thomas joins the show to explain how we got here, where we might be headed, and a surprisingly analog technique that could save you from getting scammed by a deepfaked version of a loved one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560300791\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/author/thomas-germain\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thomas Germain\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, co-host of the podcast \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Interface\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and tech columnist at the\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> BBC\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20260324-i-tried-to-prove-im-not-an-ai-deepfake\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I tried to prove I’m not AI. My aunt wasn’t convinced\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Thomas Germain, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BBC \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/audio/brand/m002qwn7\">The Interface Podcast\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003ci>BBC\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/tech/895453/ai-deepfake-netanyahu-claims-conspiracy\">Benjamin Netanyahu is struggling to prove he’s not an AI clone \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jess Weatherbed, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>The Verge\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/03/14/business/media/iran-disinfo-artificial-intelligence.html\">Cascade of A.I. Fakes About War With Iran Causes Chaos Online \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Stuart A. Thompson and Alexander Cardia, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/experts-warn-collapse-trust-online-ai-deepfakes-venezuela-rcna252472\">AI is intensifying a ‘collapse’ of trust online, experts say\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Angela Yang, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/deepfakes-elections-and-shrinking-liars-dividend\">Deepfakes, Elections, and Shrinking the Liar’s Dividend\u003c/a> — Josh A. Goldstein, \u003ci>Brennan Center for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Send it to your friends, your frenemies, that one niche micro-influencer you kind of have a parasocial relationship with. Maybe they’ll respond, I don’t know. All right, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we talk about deepfakes and AI, often what we’re thinking about is the idea that you’re gonna get tricked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Thomas Germain. He’s the cohost of the podcast The Interface, and also a tech columnist at the BBC. His column, Keeping Tabs, covers tech and how it affects average people every day. So, like many journalists on this beat, he’s been keeping an eye on the uptick in deep fake scams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone’s going to scam you, they’re going to try and fool you into thinking that they’re someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fakes are synthetic media, images, videos, or audio recordings that have been generated or manipulated by AI to impersonate someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I started thinking about like, what would it be like if the shoe was on the other foot? What if you needed to convince someone that you’re real and you are who you say that you are? How difficult would that be?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Thomas decided to do a little experiment. He called up his aunt Eleanor. Thomas and his aunt Eleanor are very close. She was at the hospital the day he was born and of all of his relatives, she’s the one he calls the most and she’s relatively online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She knows a bit about what’s going on. Her husband, my uncle, is actually a computer science professor. So she gets some of it, but she’s not like up to date on everything that’s happening. And I wanted someone who knows me really, really well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last part is important. Thomas called his aunt and explained the experiment. He would call her back, and she’d either be talking to the real him, her beloved nephew, or a deep fake, generated by AI. And what Thomas wanted to know was, could she tell the difference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At first, you know, it was a very fun, like, friendly conversation, but there was this weird, like tension, you know? She said before we even got on the phone, she’s like, “Oh, I’m gonna be really upset if I can’t tell,” you know, because she’s known me since the day I was born, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His aunt Eleanor tried a few different methods to suss it out. First, she went on Facebook.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And read me like a bunch of jokes that she’s seen that she really liked, to like see what my reaction was. And you know, we’re like different generations, we have different senses of humor. So I’m not sure like, was the test that I would laugh or I wouldn’t laugh. It was kind of funny. That didn’t seem to convince her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So she took a different approach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was knitting me a sweater and we hadn’t decided on the color. And like a couple of weeks before we got on the phone. I told her that I was saying I wanted a gold sweater, like kind of gold colored yarn. And then when we were talking, when I was tricking her about AI, she brought it up and she’s like, “so have you decided on the color?” and I was like, “yeah, you know, I think it might just go boring, like just do like a black or like a dark blue or something.” And I think of all the things, that made her the most suspicious because like, ‘I was expecting you to go with like a more exciting color. She’s like “That…. I don’t know, that feels like a robot answer.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s so generic, it can’t possibly be you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I know, but maybe I’m a boring guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She still couldn’t be sure, so she gave him another test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She asked me for some details about, like, things from my childhood that you would be unlikely to know if you weren’t a member of my family. And I think she found that a little bit reassuring.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But overall, the experience left Aunt Eleanor rattled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the end of the call where she realized she couldn’t be totally sure, it was kind of distressing. You know, like, you’re supposed to know your loved ones, how could it be? And we talked for like 20 minutes or so and by the of it she told me like, “I think it’s the real you, I just can’t be sure, I’m not 100% confident.”.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And at the end I told her it is me, I am not tricking you. But there were all these little things that she was trying to pick up on, and I think this is really important for people to understand, throw that out the window. This technology is so good, I promise you, there is nothing that you can do to tell that you’re not looking at an AI, and if you convince yourself that you could figure it out by just like thinking really hard and being careful, you are more likely to get in trouble and get fooled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is way bigger than Thomas duping his aunt. It’s a real world problem. Every day, deep fake scams and AI generated disinformation lead people astray. Which is why the general public is becoming so distrustful of everything online. When everything could be fake, how do you tell what’s real and what’s not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kicking this off as always, let’s open a new tab: the Netanyahu deep fake death rumor. In March, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a televised update on the war in Iran. A clip of it was posted on his official X account.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio clip of Benjamin Netanyahu addressing Israeli people in Hebrew]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizens of Israel, my brothers and sisters, we are in historic times…\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Something about that video seemed off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s one moment where he kind of waves his hand in front of the camera and if you freeze frame it at just the right second, it kind of looks like he’s got a sixth finger on his hand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Screenshots of this moment started making the rounds. And if you’re just scrolling by and you see this freeze frame out of context, it would probably raise a few alarm bells, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really looks weird. It’s like, it looks like this weird digital glitch and because it’s a video, you know, it’s little grainy it’s pixelated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this rumor started swirling around online. Was this televised speech really Netanyahu? Or was it a deep fake?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And people latched onto this because for the longest time, AI image and video generators really struggled with hands. Right? They were trained to focus on faces, hands were this thing they picked up along the way and they couldn’t get the hands just right. That was true two or three years ago. Right? The technology has advanced past that point. It’s not true that AI struggles with hands anymore. That isn’t really an issue, but this was enough and it does look weird if you pause at the right frame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thus, a conspiracy theory was born: Netanyahu was dead, and this was the cover-up. It didn’t help that the Prime Minister’s health had been the subject of public speculation for years. He had emergency heart surgery in 2023, and then a year later, underwent treatment for prostate cancer. And then there’s the war in Iran. The U.S. and Israel killed the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>[Audio clip from Global News Youtube post]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nIn Tehran, thousands gathered to mourn the death of the supreme leader. Similar protests were held in cities around the world including…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In retaliation, Iran’s Revolutionary Guard has vowed to hunt down and target Netanyahu personally. The seed of doubt over Netanyahu’s health was already planted. Then, the wonky six-fingered video launched the conspiracy theory into the mainstream.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was enough that some large swath of people latched on to this idea that Netanyahu had been killed in a missile strike, and the Israeli government was hiding the truth and making AI videos to convince the world that he was still alive, to what aim, I’m not exactly sure. It turned into, you know, such like a meme, essentially. Like, the conversation got so big that it was enough that Netnyahu posted another video.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voice behind camera: Do you want to show us?\u003cbr>\nNetanyahu: Here. Here.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This video takes place in a coffee shop near Jerusalem. The camera approaches Netanyahu, and the voice behind it says, they’re saying on the internet that you’re actually dead. Netanyah, holding a latte, tells the camera, I’m dying for a coffee. And then he holds up his hand and says, do you want to count the fingers?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He did a terrible job with it for a couple of reasons. If the goal was convincing the public. Number one, I talked to a bunch of people about this and they’re like, the worst thing you can do is come out and deny it because it makes it look like you’ve got something to hide. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there is still something off about the video. It was almost uncanny. He looked super crisp and almost too smooth. It only fueled the conspiracy theories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They shot this on like a nice DSLR, like one of those big cameras, which is how AI videos look. Right? They’re trained on high quality content, high quality videos, so they produce what looks like smoother, polished, high quality video. So it looked a little bit more like AI than it would have if he had just used a phone to record it. So that, I think, just sent people spiraling even more. Nobody was convinced by this, as far as I could tell. The people who had latched on, if anything, it just reaffirmed their belief that the bad guys were trying to trick them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the thing about conspiracy theories. Once you’re convinced, everything else just seems like confirmation of what you already believe. People took screenshots, zoomed in, tried to find inconsistencies in the backgrounds of the video. Joe Rogan, for one, seemed pretty convinced.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from The Joe Rogan Experience] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look at this. Yeah, like the coffee. Look how turned it is, but it doesn’t spill at all. It just wiggles to the edge.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He talked about it on his podcast, which has over 20 million followers on YouTube. And of course, that just spread the rumor further. I saw claims that if you zoomed in on the date on the register, the pixels didn’t look right. So surely it was fake. Right? Or that the video itself was real, but it wasn’t actually Netanyahu. It was really an actor deep faked to look like Netanyahu and the shadows gave it away. Or, that when he put his hands in his pocket, the fabric of his jacket seemed to smooth over.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the thing about reality is it’s weird. Right? Like, if you look close enough at anything you’ll find weird stuff but especially with digital photography, digital video, it’s the way that the sensors work, like, errors are actually inherent to the way that a digital camera sensor functions. So if you zoom in on any video, if you’re, like, watching a clip from this podcast on social media, zoom in, take a screenshot and zoom in, you will find something weird. That’s just how digital images work, that there’ll be some little grainy thing, there’ll be some glitch. And I think it’s important for people to understand that unless you have serious expertise on this subject, you aren’t qualified to make that kind of call. I am not qualified to make that knd of, I think about this stuff all the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For his column, Thomas talked to a few of the world’s leading experts on this, including Jeremy Carrasco. He runs a publication called Riddance, which investigates AI-generated media.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he went through, he analyzed it, he determined it was real. I talked to professors, I talked to some people who were like, real world leading experts on digital forensics is what they call it, like figuring out what the origin of a file is. They said there is no doubt. It is impossible that these videos are AI-generated. Like, this thing where it sort of looked like Netanyahu had a sixth finger, even if you watch the clip, instead of looking at a freeze frame, you can kind of see there’s like a shadow on his hand and that’s what it is. It looks weird if you take a screenshot at the right second, but the video itself, it’s very clearly real. This was not enough. And I think that is kind of part of the problem is that we’ve lived through an era where there’s been an assault on expertise, right? That, you know, real conscious, intentional efforts to discredit traditional forms of you know, authority on truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thomas also talked to Hany Farid, a professor at UC Berkeley who’s known as the father of digital forensics. He pioneered this field of examining files and figuring out if they’re real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s one of these guys that’s constantly watching this stuff. And he says, you can see the progression of AI and deep fake technology if you look at some of the recent global conflicts. Like, if we go back to the beginning of the war in Ukraine, it was almost all real footage. Like, every once in a while, you’d see something AI-generated, but for the most part, it was all real. Fast forward to the conflict in Gaza and it was starting to get to the point where there was more AI-generated content. It was a little harder to sort the real from the truth. You get to when the U.S. invaded Venezuela, and it was about 50-50. Right? You’re seeing as much fake stuff as real stuff if you just go out and look at a random video on the subject on the internet. By the time we got to the war in Iran, there’s more fake footage, there’s more fake clips, there is more mis and disinformation than there is real stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, we dove into the slopaganda coming out of Iran, those AI-generated Lego rap videos dissing the U.S. They’re clearly not real, but they still push specific narratives to the American public. But there’s another kind of AI- generated media at play here: videos that look real but portray events that never happened, like AI-generated footage of Iranian missiles sinking U.S. ships and bombarding civilians in Tel Aviv.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In less than six months, we had this dramatic shift where I think people in power who’ve got like, you know, a game to play, they’ve got something that they want to try and convince the public of, they’ve realized that this technology is something they can put into play. There are whole operations that are ready to get off the ground at a moment’s notice to like, fill the world with fakery and lies. I think that is a real serious problem, I mean, even for journalists, even in the media. Like, it used to be if you saw something that was recorded with a camera, you know, in the not too distant past, it was almost certainly real. Right? Because it took so much effort, especially for video, so much effort to fake something in a convincing way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I can do it like while I’m washing the dishes. I could reach over and hammer something out of my phone and generate a fake video. For the average person, I think this means that you are constantly inundated with nonsense. You are being exposed to lies on a near constant basis. It’s not just that the image looks real, it’s not just the video looks real. The thing that’s happening is so close to real life. Right? And if you’re a person who watches a lot of short form video and social media, if like scrolling through Instagram Reels or TikTok, the chances that you have seen a piece of AI content and been fooled that it was real, I’d say in the last week, are extremely high.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Actual footage, meanwhile, has been written off as fake and AI. When the U.S. bombed an elementary school in Iran, killing 120 children, some people online questioned whether footage of the aftermath was authentic. It didn’t help that the true photos and videos were mixed in with AI-generated depictions of what happened. It’s one thing for digital forensics experts, like Hany Farid, to sift through all of the slop and determine what’s real. It’s another for these experts to get the public to actually trust them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It leads to an information ecosystem, you know, a landscape of truth where everything is up for debate. Nothing is set in stone and everything is suspect. And that leads to some new ways that power can be abused and people can be taken advantage of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The conspiracy theories over Netanyahu’s death have not stopped. The follow-up videos and public appearances after the coffee shop debacle only fueled the rumors further. In March, Netanyahu appeared in a video with Mike Huckabee, who is now the ambassador to Israel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mike Huckabee: Mr. Prime Minister, I wanted you to know, the President asked me to come and make sure you were okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Benjamin Netanyahu: Yes, Mike. Yes, I’m alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If anything, it only convinced people that Huckabee was also a deepfake. On X and TikTok, people did the same exact thing they did to previous videos, zoomed in, slowed down, cropped screenshots, and looked for any anomaly that could confirm their theories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cem>[Audio clip from a post on the TikTok account of @ragingprestigemaster3.0]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The picture you’re seeing right up here, that’s not his ear, fam.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that is a truly historical moment. This is, according to everyone that I asked, the first time that the leader of a major world power has like openly gone out in front of the public to try and convince people that he’s not an AI. And I think it’s a sign of a very rocky period that we’re about to enter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean for media literacy, our ability to parse the truth from fiction? Well, it definitely does not bode well for the information ecosystem. It’s really easy to take advantage of public distrust and write off real evidence as fake and AI. We’re going to talk about liars and disinformation in a new tab, after a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, after the break, we’re coming back to bunnies on a trampoline. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the liar’s dividend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A while back there was this video of, it looked like night camera footage and it was bunnies jumping on a trampoline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You remember this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got duped by that. I have a sense of whimsy. \u003cem>[laughter]\u003c/em> I thought it was real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I fell for it too at first, you know, I saw that and I was like, wow, like maybe the world’s okay after all, like there’s still, you, know, there’s still nice cute things happening. No, turns out it was fake. Millions of people saw this. That doesn’t matter. Right? It’s not going to affect your day or your life that the bunnies aren’t real. But you’re seeing stuff that is a little bit more consequential, that is maybe affecting your beliefs about how the world works or what is happening. And I think this adds up to a lot of people being led astray in ways that are really, really subtle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because anything online could be fake, people have become suspicious of everything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that creates a situation where if there’s ever any reason to doubt that something is real, then it immediately falls apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a media phenomenon called “the liar’s dividend.” Legal scholars coined the term back in 2018 in a paper about how deep fakes, truth decay, and cognitive bias affect the information ecosystem. They thought it was bad back then? They could not have predicted today. Anyway, so what exactly is “the liar’s dividend”?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It takes time or resources to verify that something is real. It’s free to cast doubt. It’s free to say that’s fake, right? It takes no effort at all. And once you raise those suspicions, you can take advantage of that. Right? I can say, ‘oh, that’s a fake news, that didn’t happen.’ And that gives people in power the ability to cast doubt on anything that isn’t convenient for whatever their goals happen to be.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, we’ve reached the point where you cannot trust your eyes, like, that ship has sailed, it’s over. You can’t tell whether you’re looking at an AI video or not. You certainly can’t tell whether your looking at a image. They’ve gotten so good that our physiology does not allow you to deal with this problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t have to be a major world leader to be affected by this. Before he wrote about this deep, fake situation, Thomas worked on this story about a safety tool that wipes your personal information from Google search results. Like every other tech journalist, he’s really passionate about privacy. So he was chugging coffee, writing this article…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got myself all worked up and I put in my family group chat, like, “Here’s a link to this setting. Everybody needs to go turn this on right now.” And my mom was like, “Is this really you?” Like, are you, is someone like taking…like that’s…[laughter] and in her defense, it is weird behavior. Right? That’s a strange thing for me to do. You have to use this Google setting right now, that’s something that’s gonna happen to you. Right? You’re gonna be talking to someone, something will be strange. Right? Maybe you’ll be in an emergency. Maybe you will get in a car accident and you call, you know, your wife and be like, I really, I desperately need Amazon gift cards right now. And it’s, it’s real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If your loved one calls you and urgently tells you that they need those gift cards, it’s probably a scam. But maybe your partner is calling to ask for the password to the family Netflix account. Your best friend lost her passport while on vacation and needs help getting a new one. Or your nephew tells you that he actually wants a blue sweater instead of the gold one you started knitting. These could be real, but how do you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a thing that’s going to happen more and more because we’re living in this world where everything is suspect and if any little doubt comes up, suddenly everything falls apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what is the solution here? Are AI companies or social media platforms doing anything to help differentiate between what’s real and what’s generated? Industry leaders and academics have been pushing for a kind of digital watermark that would be embedded in the file itself, like planting a flag that says AI-generated. And that flag would be planted deep in the pixel data. It would be really difficult to remove. Google Gemini already does this. It’s called Synth ID.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the dream there is we’ll get to a place where like all of the big AI companies or companies that are making these tools will participate in this program and there’ll be some level of checking. On the flip side, there’s efforts to build a similar thing into cameras that when you take an image with a camera, you take a photo or a video, it would embed something in the file that says this was taken by an actual camera. It’s like, this is an image of reality. So far, that technology is not here. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We haven’t gotten to the point where that is widespread enough that it can be usable. And hopefully we will arrive at a point where there’s some kind of technical solution or at least technical amelioration to this problem that will like help you sort through it. But we also just need from the social media companies, I think a lot of critics that I speak to say they need to be doing way more to label AI content right now than they are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On a lot of these platforms, you can upload a piece of footage or an image. They don’t really care whether it’s AI, right? The platforms where we’re getting all of our information could be doing a lot more to let you know that something that you’re looking at is suspicious, but they don’t have a financial incentive to solve that problem. Right? So I think what it really comes down to is we need regulatory approaches to this that will help at least do something to point people in the direction of truth. Not an easy problem to solve, but we haven’t really even tried yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, well in that case, how do you assure your loved ones that you’re really you? Let’s open our last tab:n how to prove that you are not a deep faith.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this YouTuber, Jim Browning, makes videos about exposing scammers. He recently went super viral with his three-finger test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Can you like hold up three fingers in front of your face or anything? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Oh, come on, that’s too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reasoning? This would disrupt any face-swapping deep fake program and make it glitch.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post] \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Can you do that then? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Uh, I don’t know, it’s too much to ask somebody. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Well, it’ll make sure you’re not AI, is that unreasonable? I mean, can you do that in front of your face? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Well, is that enough? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: No, it’s not in front of your face. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The scammer then abruptly ended the call, and in the comments, people were like, this is it. This is the perfect test. This is how to stay safe. But the truth is, this trick has been outdated for years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could tell you some things that you could look for, some telltale signs for audio and for video, but I’m not going to because if I gave you those tips, it would actually hurt you more than it would help you because in a week or in a month or in six months, they’re going to put out another AI model and those tips that worked last week aren’t going to work now. There is no giveaway that you’re watching an AI video. In fact, maybe the one thing that you can look out for is if you’re a watching a video that’s low quality, that’s grainy, you might be more likely to get fooled because if there is any weird digital artifact, it’ll be harder to see. AI can make high quality video, a low quality grainy pixelated image, that’s not a sign that you are looking at AI. Maybe it’s a sign, if there’s any doubt, that you might want to think twice. But we’ve past that point. Deepfakes are astonishingly good, and they keep getting just a little bit better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luckily, there is one way to protect yourself and your loved ones. And you don’t have to be that tech savvy to do it. It involves gathering up your inner circle. Older relatives, close friends, partners, nibblings, neighbors, basically anyone who could feasibly get this panicked emergency call from someone pretending to be you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You should set up a secret word that you both agree on, that if there’s ever any doubt, you can ask the person for that password and they’ll give it to you and you know you’re talking to the real person. Because I have spoken to people who’ve been scammed, where they get a phone call and it is their husband or their child. I talked to this woman who a scammer set this up and called her and she like swears to this. She’s like, I know it’s fake, but it was my son. It was his voice. It was perfect and they’re really convincing and if you’re going to get scammed what they’re going to do is there’s going to be some emergency you need to deal with right now you’re not going to be in your right mind then it’s like a solution that’s so simple it’s kind of nice in a way that with like such a frighteningly high-tech problem the solution is just speaking words outloud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This charmingly simple solution is more important than ever, because unfortunately, there’s no going back to the days before AI. But while this code word thing is great for keeping grandma from blowing her life savings on a deepfake scam, it doesn’t help you parse through all of the deepfaked and AI-generated content you come across online. There are still countless ways to get tricked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it will reach the point where for a lot of people, there is no source of truth. Everyone is trying to trick you. And I think there are a lot grifters who will take advantage of that. I think there’s people in power who will see an opportunity and they will seize it. You’ll be able to spin whatever kind of narrative you want because if you’ve got people who trust you, you can say, well, the things that I’m telling you are true and anyone who criticizes me, they’re all part of the lie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My optimistic view is it will get so bad that there will be such a desperate need for trusted institutions that people will step in to fill the void and people will seek out sources of truth that they can rely on and we will rebuild an ecosystem of trust. So I think the advice that would give you is like go find that one person on the internet, someone who’s sincere, who you trust, who you feel has your best interest in mind or maybe in institution. Maybe there’s a publication you like, maybe it’s local news. Try to find sources who you can go to, who you look to when there’s a question, because your eyes and your ears just aren’t gonna cut it anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, when it comes to these personal relationships, sometimes you do need a little trust. Thomas said that he and his aunt Eleanor don’t use a code word every time they talk on the phone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortunately, this hasn’t caused any strife between me and my aunt so far. I told her that I wasn’t actually trying to trick her, that it was the real me on the other end of the line, but I hope that this experience was unsettling enough that if there’s ever any reason to doubt, if it’s ever like, hey, I’m in trouble, I need money, or I forgot my password, I hope that she will question it and try and figure out whether it’s really me because at some point someone is going to try and fool all of us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So when she gets that chaotic text that you actually do want the gold sweater after all, she’ll ask you for your code word.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do need $600 in Walmart gift cards as soon as possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you do get a call begging for gift cards, it never hurts to double check and ask for the code word. That’s it for this deep dive, but stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the people I interviewed for this story said, “I purchased 25 acres in Vermont so when the world falls apart, I’ll go live on my homestead.” You know, maybe they’ve got the right idea. I don’t know. I don’t have 25 acres in Vermont money myself. So I’m stuck here with the rest of us schlubs, you know, we’re gonna have to deal with the fallout.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "During a recent phone call, BBC tech columnist Thomas Germain couldn’t convince his aunt that he wasn’t AI. Being unable to distinguish a real person from a fabricated version is a problem born from the sheer volume of AI-generated content flooding the internet — and one that’s increased dramatically in the last year alone. Even world leaders are now plagued by the issue: a glitchy video of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked an enduring conspiracy theory that he was really dead and his public appearances on social media were an AI-driven cover up. In a world where everything looks fake, how do we know what’s real? Thomas joins the show to explain how we got here, where we might be headed, and a surprisingly analog technique that could save you from getting scammed by a deepfaked version of a loved one.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During a recent phone call, BBC tech columnist Thomas Germain couldn’t convince his aunt that he \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">wasn’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> AI. Being unable to distinguish a real person from a fabricated version is a problem born from the sheer volume of AI-generated content flooding the internet — and one that’s increased dramatically in the last year alone. Even world leaders are now plagued by the issue: a glitchy video of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked an enduring conspiracy theory that he was really dead and his public appearances on social media were an AI-driven cover up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a world where everything looks fake, how do we know what’s real? Thomas joins the show to explain how we got here, where we might be headed, and a surprisingly analog technique that could save you from getting scammed by a deepfaked version of a loved one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560300791\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/author/thomas-germain\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thomas Germain\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, co-host of the podcast \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Interface\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and tech columnist at the\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> BBC\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20260324-i-tried-to-prove-im-not-an-ai-deepfake\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I tried to prove I’m not AI. My aunt wasn’t convinced\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Thomas Germain, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BBC \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/audio/brand/m002qwn7\">The Interface Podcast\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003ci>BBC\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/tech/895453/ai-deepfake-netanyahu-claims-conspiracy\">Benjamin Netanyahu is struggling to prove he’s not an AI clone \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jess Weatherbed, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>The Verge\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/03/14/business/media/iran-disinfo-artificial-intelligence.html\">Cascade of A.I. Fakes About War With Iran Causes Chaos Online \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Stuart A. Thompson and Alexander Cardia, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/experts-warn-collapse-trust-online-ai-deepfakes-venezuela-rcna252472\">AI is intensifying a ‘collapse’ of trust online, experts say\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Angela Yang, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/deepfakes-elections-and-shrinking-liars-dividend\">Deepfakes, Elections, and Shrinking the Liar’s Dividend\u003c/a> — Josh A. Goldstein, \u003ci>Brennan Center for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Send it to your friends, your frenemies, that one niche micro-influencer you kind of have a parasocial relationship with. Maybe they’ll respond, I don’t know. All right, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we talk about deepfakes and AI, often what we’re thinking about is the idea that you’re gonna get tricked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Thomas Germain. He’s the cohost of the podcast The Interface, and also a tech columnist at the BBC. His column, Keeping Tabs, covers tech and how it affects average people every day. So, like many journalists on this beat, he’s been keeping an eye on the uptick in deep fake scams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone’s going to scam you, they’re going to try and fool you into thinking that they’re someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fakes are synthetic media, images, videos, or audio recordings that have been generated or manipulated by AI to impersonate someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I started thinking about like, what would it be like if the shoe was on the other foot? What if you needed to convince someone that you’re real and you are who you say that you are? How difficult would that be?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Thomas decided to do a little experiment. He called up his aunt Eleanor. Thomas and his aunt Eleanor are very close. She was at the hospital the day he was born and of all of his relatives, she’s the one he calls the most and she’s relatively online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She knows a bit about what’s going on. Her husband, my uncle, is actually a computer science professor. So she gets some of it, but she’s not like up to date on everything that’s happening. And I wanted someone who knows me really, really well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last part is important. Thomas called his aunt and explained the experiment. He would call her back, and she’d either be talking to the real him, her beloved nephew, or a deep fake, generated by AI. And what Thomas wanted to know was, could she tell the difference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At first, you know, it was a very fun, like, friendly conversation, but there was this weird, like tension, you know? She said before we even got on the phone, she’s like, “Oh, I’m gonna be really upset if I can’t tell,” you know, because she’s known me since the day I was born, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His aunt Eleanor tried a few different methods to suss it out. First, she went on Facebook.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And read me like a bunch of jokes that she’s seen that she really liked, to like see what my reaction was. And you know, we’re like different generations, we have different senses of humor. So I’m not sure like, was the test that I would laugh or I wouldn’t laugh. It was kind of funny. That didn’t seem to convince her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So she took a different approach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was knitting me a sweater and we hadn’t decided on the color. And like a couple of weeks before we got on the phone. I told her that I was saying I wanted a gold sweater, like kind of gold colored yarn. And then when we were talking, when I was tricking her about AI, she brought it up and she’s like, “so have you decided on the color?” and I was like, “yeah, you know, I think it might just go boring, like just do like a black or like a dark blue or something.” And I think of all the things, that made her the most suspicious because like, ‘I was expecting you to go with like a more exciting color. She’s like “That…. I don’t know, that feels like a robot answer.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s so generic, it can’t possibly be you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I know, but maybe I’m a boring guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She still couldn’t be sure, so she gave him another test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She asked me for some details about, like, things from my childhood that you would be unlikely to know if you weren’t a member of my family. And I think she found that a little bit reassuring.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But overall, the experience left Aunt Eleanor rattled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the end of the call where she realized she couldn’t be totally sure, it was kind of distressing. You know, like, you’re supposed to know your loved ones, how could it be? And we talked for like 20 minutes or so and by the of it she told me like, “I think it’s the real you, I just can’t be sure, I’m not 100% confident.”.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And at the end I told her it is me, I am not tricking you. But there were all these little things that she was trying to pick up on, and I think this is really important for people to understand, throw that out the window. This technology is so good, I promise you, there is nothing that you can do to tell that you’re not looking at an AI, and if you convince yourself that you could figure it out by just like thinking really hard and being careful, you are more likely to get in trouble and get fooled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is way bigger than Thomas duping his aunt. It’s a real world problem. Every day, deep fake scams and AI generated disinformation lead people astray. Which is why the general public is becoming so distrustful of everything online. When everything could be fake, how do you tell what’s real and what’s not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kicking this off as always, let’s open a new tab: the Netanyahu deep fake death rumor. In March, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a televised update on the war in Iran. A clip of it was posted on his official X account.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio clip of Benjamin Netanyahu addressing Israeli people in Hebrew]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizens of Israel, my brothers and sisters, we are in historic times…\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Something about that video seemed off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s one moment where he kind of waves his hand in front of the camera and if you freeze frame it at just the right second, it kind of looks like he’s got a sixth finger on his hand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Screenshots of this moment started making the rounds. And if you’re just scrolling by and you see this freeze frame out of context, it would probably raise a few alarm bells, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really looks weird. It’s like, it looks like this weird digital glitch and because it’s a video, you know, it’s little grainy it’s pixelated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this rumor started swirling around online. Was this televised speech really Netanyahu? Or was it a deep fake?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And people latched onto this because for the longest time, AI image and video generators really struggled with hands. Right? They were trained to focus on faces, hands were this thing they picked up along the way and they couldn’t get the hands just right. That was true two or three years ago. Right? The technology has advanced past that point. It’s not true that AI struggles with hands anymore. That isn’t really an issue, but this was enough and it does look weird if you pause at the right frame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thus, a conspiracy theory was born: Netanyahu was dead, and this was the cover-up. It didn’t help that the Prime Minister’s health had been the subject of public speculation for years. He had emergency heart surgery in 2023, and then a year later, underwent treatment for prostate cancer. And then there’s the war in Iran. The U.S. and Israel killed the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>[Audio clip from Global News Youtube post]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nIn Tehran, thousands gathered to mourn the death of the supreme leader. Similar protests were held in cities around the world including…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In retaliation, Iran’s Revolutionary Guard has vowed to hunt down and target Netanyahu personally. The seed of doubt over Netanyahu’s health was already planted. Then, the wonky six-fingered video launched the conspiracy theory into the mainstream.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was enough that some large swath of people latched on to this idea that Netanyahu had been killed in a missile strike, and the Israeli government was hiding the truth and making AI videos to convince the world that he was still alive, to what aim, I’m not exactly sure. It turned into, you know, such like a meme, essentially. Like, the conversation got so big that it was enough that Netnyahu posted another video.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voice behind camera: Do you want to show us?\u003cbr>\nNetanyahu: Here. Here.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This video takes place in a coffee shop near Jerusalem. The camera approaches Netanyahu, and the voice behind it says, they’re saying on the internet that you’re actually dead. Netanyah, holding a latte, tells the camera, I’m dying for a coffee. And then he holds up his hand and says, do you want to count the fingers?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He did a terrible job with it for a couple of reasons. If the goal was convincing the public. Number one, I talked to a bunch of people about this and they’re like, the worst thing you can do is come out and deny it because it makes it look like you’ve got something to hide. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there is still something off about the video. It was almost uncanny. He looked super crisp and almost too smooth. It only fueled the conspiracy theories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They shot this on like a nice DSLR, like one of those big cameras, which is how AI videos look. Right? They’re trained on high quality content, high quality videos, so they produce what looks like smoother, polished, high quality video. So it looked a little bit more like AI than it would have if he had just used a phone to record it. So that, I think, just sent people spiraling even more. Nobody was convinced by this, as far as I could tell. The people who had latched on, if anything, it just reaffirmed their belief that the bad guys were trying to trick them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the thing about conspiracy theories. Once you’re convinced, everything else just seems like confirmation of what you already believe. People took screenshots, zoomed in, tried to find inconsistencies in the backgrounds of the video. Joe Rogan, for one, seemed pretty convinced.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from The Joe Rogan Experience] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look at this. Yeah, like the coffee. Look how turned it is, but it doesn’t spill at all. It just wiggles to the edge.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He talked about it on his podcast, which has over 20 million followers on YouTube. And of course, that just spread the rumor further. I saw claims that if you zoomed in on the date on the register, the pixels didn’t look right. So surely it was fake. Right? Or that the video itself was real, but it wasn’t actually Netanyahu. It was really an actor deep faked to look like Netanyahu and the shadows gave it away. Or, that when he put his hands in his pocket, the fabric of his jacket seemed to smooth over.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the thing about reality is it’s weird. Right? Like, if you look close enough at anything you’ll find weird stuff but especially with digital photography, digital video, it’s the way that the sensors work, like, errors are actually inherent to the way that a digital camera sensor functions. So if you zoom in on any video, if you’re, like, watching a clip from this podcast on social media, zoom in, take a screenshot and zoom in, you will find something weird. That’s just how digital images work, that there’ll be some little grainy thing, there’ll be some glitch. And I think it’s important for people to understand that unless you have serious expertise on this subject, you aren’t qualified to make that kind of call. I am not qualified to make that knd of, I think about this stuff all the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For his column, Thomas talked to a few of the world’s leading experts on this, including Jeremy Carrasco. He runs a publication called Riddance, which investigates AI-generated media.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he went through, he analyzed it, he determined it was real. I talked to professors, I talked to some people who were like, real world leading experts on digital forensics is what they call it, like figuring out what the origin of a file is. They said there is no doubt. It is impossible that these videos are AI-generated. Like, this thing where it sort of looked like Netanyahu had a sixth finger, even if you watch the clip, instead of looking at a freeze frame, you can kind of see there’s like a shadow on his hand and that’s what it is. It looks weird if you take a screenshot at the right second, but the video itself, it’s very clearly real. This was not enough. And I think that is kind of part of the problem is that we’ve lived through an era where there’s been an assault on expertise, right? That, you know, real conscious, intentional efforts to discredit traditional forms of you know, authority on truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thomas also talked to Hany Farid, a professor at UC Berkeley who’s known as the father of digital forensics. He pioneered this field of examining files and figuring out if they’re real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s one of these guys that’s constantly watching this stuff. And he says, you can see the progression of AI and deep fake technology if you look at some of the recent global conflicts. Like, if we go back to the beginning of the war in Ukraine, it was almost all real footage. Like, every once in a while, you’d see something AI-generated, but for the most part, it was all real. Fast forward to the conflict in Gaza and it was starting to get to the point where there was more AI-generated content. It was a little harder to sort the real from the truth. You get to when the U.S. invaded Venezuela, and it was about 50-50. Right? You’re seeing as much fake stuff as real stuff if you just go out and look at a random video on the subject on the internet. By the time we got to the war in Iran, there’s more fake footage, there’s more fake clips, there is more mis and disinformation than there is real stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, we dove into the slopaganda coming out of Iran, those AI-generated Lego rap videos dissing the U.S. They’re clearly not real, but they still push specific narratives to the American public. But there’s another kind of AI- generated media at play here: videos that look real but portray events that never happened, like AI-generated footage of Iranian missiles sinking U.S. ships and bombarding civilians in Tel Aviv.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In less than six months, we had this dramatic shift where I think people in power who’ve got like, you know, a game to play, they’ve got something that they want to try and convince the public of, they’ve realized that this technology is something they can put into play. There are whole operations that are ready to get off the ground at a moment’s notice to like, fill the world with fakery and lies. I think that is a real serious problem, I mean, even for journalists, even in the media. Like, it used to be if you saw something that was recorded with a camera, you know, in the not too distant past, it was almost certainly real. Right? Because it took so much effort, especially for video, so much effort to fake something in a convincing way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I can do it like while I’m washing the dishes. I could reach over and hammer something out of my phone and generate a fake video. For the average person, I think this means that you are constantly inundated with nonsense. You are being exposed to lies on a near constant basis. It’s not just that the image looks real, it’s not just the video looks real. The thing that’s happening is so close to real life. Right? And if you’re a person who watches a lot of short form video and social media, if like scrolling through Instagram Reels or TikTok, the chances that you have seen a piece of AI content and been fooled that it was real, I’d say in the last week, are extremely high.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Actual footage, meanwhile, has been written off as fake and AI. When the U.S. bombed an elementary school in Iran, killing 120 children, some people online questioned whether footage of the aftermath was authentic. It didn’t help that the true photos and videos were mixed in with AI-generated depictions of what happened. It’s one thing for digital forensics experts, like Hany Farid, to sift through all of the slop and determine what’s real. It’s another for these experts to get the public to actually trust them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It leads to an information ecosystem, you know, a landscape of truth where everything is up for debate. Nothing is set in stone and everything is suspect. And that leads to some new ways that power can be abused and people can be taken advantage of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The conspiracy theories over Netanyahu’s death have not stopped. The follow-up videos and public appearances after the coffee shop debacle only fueled the rumors further. In March, Netanyahu appeared in a video with Mike Huckabee, who is now the ambassador to Israel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mike Huckabee: Mr. Prime Minister, I wanted you to know, the President asked me to come and make sure you were okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Benjamin Netanyahu: Yes, Mike. Yes, I’m alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If anything, it only convinced people that Huckabee was also a deepfake. On X and TikTok, people did the same exact thing they did to previous videos, zoomed in, slowed down, cropped screenshots, and looked for any anomaly that could confirm their theories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cem>[Audio clip from a post on the TikTok account of @ragingprestigemaster3.0]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The picture you’re seeing right up here, that’s not his ear, fam.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that is a truly historical moment. This is, according to everyone that I asked, the first time that the leader of a major world power has like openly gone out in front of the public to try and convince people that he’s not an AI. And I think it’s a sign of a very rocky period that we’re about to enter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean for media literacy, our ability to parse the truth from fiction? Well, it definitely does not bode well for the information ecosystem. It’s really easy to take advantage of public distrust and write off real evidence as fake and AI. We’re going to talk about liars and disinformation in a new tab, after a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, after the break, we’re coming back to bunnies on a trampoline. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the liar’s dividend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A while back there was this video of, it looked like night camera footage and it was bunnies jumping on a trampoline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You remember this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got duped by that. I have a sense of whimsy. \u003cem>[laughter]\u003c/em> I thought it was real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I fell for it too at first, you know, I saw that and I was like, wow, like maybe the world’s okay after all, like there’s still, you, know, there’s still nice cute things happening. No, turns out it was fake. Millions of people saw this. That doesn’t matter. Right? It’s not going to affect your day or your life that the bunnies aren’t real. But you’re seeing stuff that is a little bit more consequential, that is maybe affecting your beliefs about how the world works or what is happening. And I think this adds up to a lot of people being led astray in ways that are really, really subtle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because anything online could be fake, people have become suspicious of everything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that creates a situation where if there’s ever any reason to doubt that something is real, then it immediately falls apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a media phenomenon called “the liar’s dividend.” Legal scholars coined the term back in 2018 in a paper about how deep fakes, truth decay, and cognitive bias affect the information ecosystem. They thought it was bad back then? They could not have predicted today. Anyway, so what exactly is “the liar’s dividend”?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It takes time or resources to verify that something is real. It’s free to cast doubt. It’s free to say that’s fake, right? It takes no effort at all. And once you raise those suspicions, you can take advantage of that. Right? I can say, ‘oh, that’s a fake news, that didn’t happen.’ And that gives people in power the ability to cast doubt on anything that isn’t convenient for whatever their goals happen to be.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, we’ve reached the point where you cannot trust your eyes, like, that ship has sailed, it’s over. You can’t tell whether you’re looking at an AI video or not. You certainly can’t tell whether your looking at a image. They’ve gotten so good that our physiology does not allow you to deal with this problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t have to be a major world leader to be affected by this. Before he wrote about this deep, fake situation, Thomas worked on this story about a safety tool that wipes your personal information from Google search results. Like every other tech journalist, he’s really passionate about privacy. So he was chugging coffee, writing this article…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got myself all worked up and I put in my family group chat, like, “Here’s a link to this setting. Everybody needs to go turn this on right now.” And my mom was like, “Is this really you?” Like, are you, is someone like taking…like that’s…[laughter] and in her defense, it is weird behavior. Right? That’s a strange thing for me to do. You have to use this Google setting right now, that’s something that’s gonna happen to you. Right? You’re gonna be talking to someone, something will be strange. Right? Maybe you’ll be in an emergency. Maybe you will get in a car accident and you call, you know, your wife and be like, I really, I desperately need Amazon gift cards right now. And it’s, it’s real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If your loved one calls you and urgently tells you that they need those gift cards, it’s probably a scam. But maybe your partner is calling to ask for the password to the family Netflix account. Your best friend lost her passport while on vacation and needs help getting a new one. Or your nephew tells you that he actually wants a blue sweater instead of the gold one you started knitting. These could be real, but how do you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a thing that’s going to happen more and more because we’re living in this world where everything is suspect and if any little doubt comes up, suddenly everything falls apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what is the solution here? Are AI companies or social media platforms doing anything to help differentiate between what’s real and what’s generated? Industry leaders and academics have been pushing for a kind of digital watermark that would be embedded in the file itself, like planting a flag that says AI-generated. And that flag would be planted deep in the pixel data. It would be really difficult to remove. Google Gemini already does this. It’s called Synth ID.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the dream there is we’ll get to a place where like all of the big AI companies or companies that are making these tools will participate in this program and there’ll be some level of checking. On the flip side, there’s efforts to build a similar thing into cameras that when you take an image with a camera, you take a photo or a video, it would embed something in the file that says this was taken by an actual camera. It’s like, this is an image of reality. So far, that technology is not here. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We haven’t gotten to the point where that is widespread enough that it can be usable. And hopefully we will arrive at a point where there’s some kind of technical solution or at least technical amelioration to this problem that will like help you sort through it. But we also just need from the social media companies, I think a lot of critics that I speak to say they need to be doing way more to label AI content right now than they are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On a lot of these platforms, you can upload a piece of footage or an image. They don’t really care whether it’s AI, right? The platforms where we’re getting all of our information could be doing a lot more to let you know that something that you’re looking at is suspicious, but they don’t have a financial incentive to solve that problem. Right? So I think what it really comes down to is we need regulatory approaches to this that will help at least do something to point people in the direction of truth. Not an easy problem to solve, but we haven’t really even tried yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, well in that case, how do you assure your loved ones that you’re really you? Let’s open our last tab:n how to prove that you are not a deep faith.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this YouTuber, Jim Browning, makes videos about exposing scammers. He recently went super viral with his three-finger test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Can you like hold up three fingers in front of your face or anything? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Oh, come on, that’s too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reasoning? This would disrupt any face-swapping deep fake program and make it glitch.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post] \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Can you do that then? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Uh, I don’t know, it’s too much to ask somebody. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Well, it’ll make sure you’re not AI, is that unreasonable? I mean, can you do that in front of your face? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Well, is that enough? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: No, it’s not in front of your face. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The scammer then abruptly ended the call, and in the comments, people were like, this is it. This is the perfect test. This is how to stay safe. But the truth is, this trick has been outdated for years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could tell you some things that you could look for, some telltale signs for audio and for video, but I’m not going to because if I gave you those tips, it would actually hurt you more than it would help you because in a week or in a month or in six months, they’re going to put out another AI model and those tips that worked last week aren’t going to work now. There is no giveaway that you’re watching an AI video. In fact, maybe the one thing that you can look out for is if you’re a watching a video that’s low quality, that’s grainy, you might be more likely to get fooled because if there is any weird digital artifact, it’ll be harder to see. AI can make high quality video, a low quality grainy pixelated image, that’s not a sign that you are looking at AI. Maybe it’s a sign, if there’s any doubt, that you might want to think twice. But we’ve past that point. Deepfakes are astonishingly good, and they keep getting just a little bit better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luckily, there is one way to protect yourself and your loved ones. And you don’t have to be that tech savvy to do it. It involves gathering up your inner circle. Older relatives, close friends, partners, nibblings, neighbors, basically anyone who could feasibly get this panicked emergency call from someone pretending to be you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You should set up a secret word that you both agree on, that if there’s ever any doubt, you can ask the person for that password and they’ll give it to you and you know you’re talking to the real person. Because I have spoken to people who’ve been scammed, where they get a phone call and it is their husband or their child. I talked to this woman who a scammer set this up and called her and she like swears to this. She’s like, I know it’s fake, but it was my son. It was his voice. It was perfect and they’re really convincing and if you’re going to get scammed what they’re going to do is there’s going to be some emergency you need to deal with right now you’re not going to be in your right mind then it’s like a solution that’s so simple it’s kind of nice in a way that with like such a frighteningly high-tech problem the solution is just speaking words outloud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This charmingly simple solution is more important than ever, because unfortunately, there’s no going back to the days before AI. But while this code word thing is great for keeping grandma from blowing her life savings on a deepfake scam, it doesn’t help you parse through all of the deepfaked and AI-generated content you come across online. There are still countless ways to get tricked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it will reach the point where for a lot of people, there is no source of truth. Everyone is trying to trick you. And I think there are a lot grifters who will take advantage of that. I think there’s people in power who will see an opportunity and they will seize it. You’ll be able to spin whatever kind of narrative you want because if you’ve got people who trust you, you can say, well, the things that I’m telling you are true and anyone who criticizes me, they’re all part of the lie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My optimistic view is it will get so bad that there will be such a desperate need for trusted institutions that people will step in to fill the void and people will seek out sources of truth that they can rely on and we will rebuild an ecosystem of trust. So I think the advice that would give you is like go find that one person on the internet, someone who’s sincere, who you trust, who you feel has your best interest in mind or maybe in institution. Maybe there’s a publication you like, maybe it’s local news. Try to find sources who you can go to, who you look to when there’s a question, because your eyes and your ears just aren’t gonna cut it anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, when it comes to these personal relationships, sometimes you do need a little trust. Thomas said that he and his aunt Eleanor don’t use a code word every time they talk on the phone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortunately, this hasn’t caused any strife between me and my aunt so far. I told her that I wasn’t actually trying to trick her, that it was the real me on the other end of the line, but I hope that this experience was unsettling enough that if there’s ever any reason to doubt, if it’s ever like, hey, I’m in trouble, I need money, or I forgot my password, I hope that she will question it and try and figure out whether it’s really me because at some point someone is going to try and fool all of us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So when she gets that chaotic text that you actually do want the gold sweater after all, she’ll ask you for your code word.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do need $600 in Walmart gift cards as soon as possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you do get a call begging for gift cards, it never hurts to double check and ask for the code word. That’s it for this deep dive, but stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the people I interviewed for this story said, “I purchased 25 acres in Vermont so when the world falls apart, I’ll go live on my homestead.” You know, maybe they’ve got the right idea. I don’t know. I don’t have 25 acres in Vermont money myself. So I’m stuck here with the rest of us schlubs, you know, we’re gonna have to deal with the fallout.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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},
"perspectives": {
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
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